Demo against Ireland's bumpkin wildlife killers & other news

by tom Tue May 13, 2003 13:54

You (or the alf) seem to imply that animals killed at non halal abbatoirs are treated more humanely. I have spoken to people who have worked in the Meat Packers plant in north Dublin ;they say that the cruelty inflicted on amimals by these industrial slaughter houses is actually worse than what goes on in small butchers.You should be very careful that your campaign doesn't get infiltrated by right wing ,racist groups .

by Mike Tue May 13, 2003 14:08 stepbystepfarm at shaysnet dot com

"ALF Ireland also claim to have superglued the doors of two Halal butchers in Dublin. Halal meat means the animal, alive at the time, has its throat cut with a very sharp knife by a Muslim who recites Islamic verse over it."

ALL animals slaughtered for meat were alive at the time they were slaughtered. That's what it mean, to slaugher an animal. Are the ALF folks under the misapprehension that the meat found in non-hahal butcher shops was from animals that died naturally?

The usual non-halal method of slaugher is to bash the animal over the head with a sledge hammer (or "captive bolt" pistol, or electorshock) stunning the animal so it is confused and unable to struggle as its throat is cut -- it may even be "brain dead". Not particuarly less cruel. I have had the oportunity to watch it done both ways. Successful slaughter of an unstunned animal by sharp knife requires that the animal be calm and unfrightened. Done right (takes considerable skill) they go down just as fast and calmly as when the vet puts an animal "to sleep" -- yes, I've watched that too.

I can understand the "animal welfare" position that no animals should be killed for humans to eat. But not the particular objection to the method used by Moslems and Jews. It isn't crueler or slower or more painful than the non-halal or non-kosher methods.

by Mike Tue May 13, 2003 14:12 stepbystepfarm at shaysnet dot com

That what we over here call "jacking"? Hunting at night using a bright light to "freeze" animals?

Good heavens! That's illegal everywhere in the states (considered a form of poaching even when hunting is otherwise allowed).

by Red water Tue May 13, 2003 15:21

Sure they'll only shcare the sheep if we dont get rid of em. tis only a bit a fun, bit like shootin road signs. a bit o meat never did anyone anyharm, unless its got bse or that shite in it.

by prankster Tue May 13, 2003 16:29

they wouldn't call it lampin, or that, but they'd call it gaffin alright.

by Lone Gunman Tue May 13, 2003 19:02

Rated by the FBI as more dangerous than the right wing militas,and proably more fanatical than Al queida.They fortuneatly are not very competant at doing much in Ireland apart from gluing up locks,beating up kids and genearlly being thuggish.As well as shooting gay,right wing Dutch politicians.Mostly run here in Dublin by a fat little,hysterical lady from the Ward,and her nerdy husband in the Indo.As well as another little thug who lives with his other eco freek lady friend in Waterford who loves badgers.As well as some other demented letter writer in Callan who ranges from pathetic to outright lunatic in his ramblings.Funnily enough both the hunt sabs and the other animal nazis have all been at each others throats since time immorial.
Pathetic really,and long may it remain so.

by Foxy - Hunt Sabs Wed May 14, 2003 12:01 as above

To answer some of the reasonable questions and some of the just-plain-dumb questions above.

(1) Halal meat. While personally I've no grudge against halal meat anymore than I do with meat itself, there are some who single it out as being particularly cruel because it requires no form of pre-stunning to be used and that animals (who have their throats slit) are to be left to bleed to death. Which, obviously, means a very slow and painful death.

Tom: I agree, bigger slaughterhouses are much worse than smaller ones. It makes sense when they have to 'process' a much larger amount of animals. However, at least some form of stunning is used which halal explicitly lacks. I don't know all the facts I'm just trying to shed light on why halal shops were attacked. In terms of elements of the far right, I think people should be allowed to criticise without being accused of racism, after all there are a surprising amount of muslim anti-halal organisations.

Mike: I think it's a bit simplistic to loook at it as if one method is cruel and another humane. They're both cruel. I also agree that if done properly, halal can be more humane in the initial stages of slaughter but less humane in terms of the length of time it takes to kill individual animals. To be honest, that butcher shop that was attacked was probably attacked because of it being a butcher shop, the halal mightn't have been an issue at all.

(2) Lamping: Hunting at night using a bright light to "freeze" animals? Yep that's lamping. A sport particularly favoured by illegal badger baiters who are legal shooters.

(3) Lone Gunman: You call us fanatical?! At least we've better things to do that sit on our arse moaning and moping about people we don't like. It doesn't surprise me that you're a 'lone' gunman, you don't even have your facts right!

"They fortuneatly are not very competant at doing much in Ireland apart from gluing up locks,beating up kids and genearlly being thuggish"

-'beating up kids and genearlly being thuggish', eh? Would appreciate some real criticism not lies etc. Did you read this is 'Shooters' Weekly'? It's us who've been beaten up by hunt scum. Last count was 6 hospitalised at a hunt sab in waterford by a hunt master and his thugs.
-the ALF has been active incident+ly, with a large scale attack on a mink farm a month or two ago.

"Funnily enough both the hunt sabs and the other animal nazis have all been at each others throats since time immorial"

This must be very old news because I've been around a long time and have never seen any of this sort of strife in the AR movement. In fact the NARGC has been ostrasized by Master of Fox Hounds Assoc. because of it's recent affiliation to the Countryside Alliance.

-By the way, your charactures are at least 3 years old!

The ALF might be terrorist to the like of you and other animal abusers, but outside of that I don't think anyone really cares, so long may that be!

by pat c Wed May 14, 2003 12:35

heh! heh!

by Mike Wed May 14, 2003 13:46 stepbystepfarm at shaysnet dot com

In other words, WHY do you imagine that to be the truth? Have you ever witnessed slaughter by different methods to compare which seemed the least crule an painful? You apparently don't believe me that I have.

What should be the standard? Would you accept the way a vet does it? See, I have never left a companion animal behind to die alone with just the vet. I've always held them as the ligature was released and the shot of sodium pentathol (or whatever else might be used) spread through the body and they went limp in mid air (if they were still capable of standing at the time).

I have also witnessed slaughter by various means though NOT by the "industry methods" which are particularly horrific. But back in the 60's on farm communes. I know how quick (or non-quick) it is for a pig shot in the head, or the others in terror as they smell the blood.

OK, here and now, we live on the land. Now we have somewhat peculiar views, believe that people who choose to eat meat ought to at least sometimes have to face exactly what that means. Have to face that meat does NOT come from plastic packages and that if you are to eat meat, then an animal must die.

So every couple years we would gather together a bunch of people and take them up into the woods with a suitable animal, usually a young goat. We'd have them stand around in a circle while my son (who is very good at this) slit its throat with a sharp knife. Done right the animal doesn't make a sound, goes limp in mid air from the sudden drop in blood pressure to the brain. Just like when the vet releases the ligature. You've cut yourself, right? You know if it's a SHARP cut it takes a couple seconds before you feel it.

OK, then we would take the blood, go around and smear it on everybody's hands. Those who felt competent would be invited to help dress and skin the carcass. The meat would be butchered and some cooked and eaten right there. FYI, as far as we can tell, only one person who ever took part in this became a vegetarian. But that was not our intent. Rather just to make everybody aware of the true "price" of meat.

Sorry -- but I do NOT "buy it". The excuse cannot be these particular places were hit because they were small butcher shops. How many "halal" butchers are there in all of Ireland? How many small butcher shops in all? If I ran the math, I bet I would discover that the odds against a random selection of two small butcher shops out of the total just happening to be two "halal" shops is less than the chances I get killed the next time I get behind the wheel.

by Lone gunman Wed May 14, 2003 22:37

First off Lamping is used to shoot foxes,not badgers,also it is quite doubtful that you would have or need a gun on a badger bait.Nowadays anyone worth their salt out lamping foxes uses a nite scope.Tough titty you tried to get lamping banned and failed,miserably.Do try and get your facts right.
2] Well Bernie W or John T or John Fitz [I assume it is one of you three munchkins]. Maybe would YOU like to answer a few of these questions.
1] Why when you brought Robin Webb the notorious ALF terrorist over from GB to lecture over here,that there was a bomb threat at NARGC from a group called [laughingly] the Provo ALF?Coincidence??
2]Why did DHS try to bring an ex loyalist bombmaker down to a lecture held in Dublin.This loyalist was kicked out of the loyalist terror structure as being too unstable.Ne now heads Belfast DHS.What do you need his advice for unless you are planning a violent campain.
3] Can you provide an independant source of confirmation for your "casaulties"? and if so why havent you taken legal procedings against those that beat you up?you are usually filming the hunts etc.Or is this your usual BS propaganda JT?
4] Would you care to comment on why three ALF terrorists were given succor in Ireland on the run from the UK police for dealing in Heroin?
On that factor,care to comment why there are more"peaceful" ALF and Sabs locked up in GB and the USA for possesion of bombmaking litature and materials than the Irish terror groups put together?
5]Why was JT in his job as PRO for ICABS kicked out because of his support for ALF actions?Ditto for BW and JF who was on trial once for threats and intimidation in Limerick and possibly for Arson as well.
6] JT why is Badgerwatch and Waterford hunt sabs run out of the same address???Still driving the 4 door Pajero???
Realising mink.Good idea to decimate the local wildlife.Even everyone else here told you and Absolute Limp F%%&k what they thought of your actions.
Sorry to delude you but really 90% of the pouplation dont give a toss about your animal campain either here or in the UK.At least the Gaurds dont take, or let you lot get away with the shite that the UK cops allow you to do]Proof the countryside alliance marches.You lot must have missed those.Seeing that you could get only appx 20 people to any of those demos.
Oh and BTW countryside alliance and NARGC are two different organizations,that are only duplicating their efforts. Nice try JT put a bad propaganda attempt.
yeah I am a lone gunman .But remember, they DO change the world.

by Foxy Thu May 15, 2003 10:50

Mike,

I have never witnessed the slaughter of any 'meat' animals by industrial methods. I trust that what you say is true and that you have witnessed both. My view however is that animal cruelty is animal cruelty and regardless of whether the animal suffers just a bit or suffers terribly, I am opposed to it. While I preference the idea of being conscious of 'the price of meat' by the methods you favour and while I also prefer the idea of people hunting for their own meat rather than buying from a butchers, my view is that animals - being very capable in their capacity to suffer - are deserving of basic rights in that they shouldn't be abused or killed without justification. And, since eating them is not necessary for our survival, then the argument that we need meat is unjustifiable.

At the end of the day I'm not expert on killing animals (have never done it and don't intentd to!), perhaps halal is more humane, perhaps not. One thing I would bear in mind, however, is that halal is usual seen as a small scale slaughter method where animal numbers are small and thus they're given more individual attention. But, similar to conventional slaughter, many halal butchers are mass industries in which the killing numbers the thousands per day with the result that welfare standards (for workers as well as animals) are naturally lowered. Make of this what you will, as I said I don't know all the answers in terms of killing methods.

To answer some of your individual questions:

> What should be the standard? Would you accept the way a vet does it?

I would prefer the way a vet does it, but with more cows in this country than people it's absolutely impossible to give the sort of attention a vet does to each slaughtered animal. Basically, it's great in theory but can't work in practice.

> So every couple years we would gather together a bunch of people and take them up into the woods with a suitable animal, usually a young goat.

I agree that it's good to 'know' where meat comes from but personally I'm never fond of this type of method. I feel it copper-fastens the idea that animals are ours to use and that once we kill them 'nicely' it's okay. If that's your view you're entitled to it, I just don't agree with it!

> Sorry -- but I do NOT "buy it". If I ran the math, I bet I would discover that the odds against a random selection of two small butcher shops out of the total just happening to be two "halal" shops is less than the chances I get killed the next time I get behind the wheel.

According to recent ALF Press Office (based in the UK) literature, the Irish ALF has had dozens of 'targets' in the last few years around the country. This includes similar attacks on many standard butcher shops, fur shops, companies associated with vivisection, hunt kennels and vehicles, raided two mink farms, released over 60 rabbbits for coursing, stolen pheasants etc etc. As far as I'm aware, the halal shops are the fisrt of their kind. It only stands out because of it's slightly 'contraversial' nature.

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Lone Gunman:

Lamping - Of course it's used to shoot foxes, my point was that lampers also are involved in baiting, there's no doubt about it. Look at those convicted of badger/dog baiting. They're all paid-up members of legal bloodsports organisations. Questions answered:

1] Why when you brought Robin Webb the notorious ALF terrorist over from GB to lecture over here,that there was a bomb threat at NARGC from a group called [laughingly] the Provo ALF?Coincidence??

What's your point? There was a bomb threat by the ALF because the NARGC is a legitamte target I assume. And as you can see by the article above, it seemed to upset poor Des Crofton, who's a right-wing fash by polite accounts.

2]Why did DHS try to bring an ex loyalist bombmaker down to a lecture held in Dublin.This loyalist was kicked out of the loyalist terror structure as being too unstable.Ne now heads Belfast DHS.What do you need his advice for unless you are planning a violent campain.

I assume DHS is the hunt sabs? firstly who is this loyalist bombmaker? He's never been invited to Dublin in my time (last eight years or so). Considering that our group has had support from individuals with republican ideas I really can't imagine this being anything but a lie. Especially since there isn't a Belfast hunt sabs and hasn't been one in years!

3] Can you provide an independant source of confirmation for your "casaulties"? and if so why havent you taken legal procedings against those that beat you up?you are usually filming the hunts etc.Or is this your usual BS propaganda JT?

Sorry, I'm not JT or any of the others you mention! Well we have it on video, we have the medical accounts from waterford hospital, etc. And it did go to court. It was thrown out even though a cop and another individual were acting as witnesses! Not surprising when the judge (who has done this before) is sympathetic to the waterford hunt and the barrister rides with them!

4] Would you care to comment on why three ALF terrorists were given succor in Ireland on the run from the UK police for dealing in Heroin?
On that factor,care to comment why there are more"peaceful" ALF and Sabs locked up in GB and the USA for possesion of bombmaking litature and materials than the Irish terror groups put together?

I'm afraid you've probably never read anything about animal rights except in those super-conservative fascist 'countyman' rags that promote shooting and hunting. You're using black propaganda that is 80% lies & 20% crazy conspiricy theory! I'm afraid I don't know how to answer to conspricy theories!!

5]Why was JT in his job as PRO for ICABS kicked out because of his support for ALF actions?Ditto for BW and JF who was on trial once for threats and intimidation in Limerick and possibly for Arson as well.

Em... BW was never on trial, JF was 20 years ago for playing practical jokes on some dumb hunt scum who were thick enough to believe it. As with heroin, I've never heard of arson charges. Pray explain... JT as far as I know favoured Hunt Sabs style campaigns to ICABS and changed because of that. He's still in contact with them regularly.

6] JT why is Badgerwatch and Waterford hunt sabs run out of the same address???Still driving the 4 door Pajero???

If you don't have all the rich arrogant scum who fox hunt to finance offices for your pressure group then unfortunately it's best to use only one address - it's cheaper you see.

> Realising mink.Good idea to decimate the local wildlife.

I don't think I'd like to take lessons on wildlife from a hunt scaum thank you very much.

> Sorry to delude you but really 90% of the pouplation dont give a toss about your animal campain either here or in the UK.

Of course that's what you say if you're the target of the campaign. The Irish Independent stated that almost 80% of people are opposed to hare coursing, 54% against fur farming, we've had dozens of campaign victories merely on the basis of public concern/pressure, we're bogged down with requests from teachers and the like to send literature for schools, we have no shortage of support I'm afraid..

> yeah I am a lone gunman .But remember, they DO change the world.

Awh, it waters my eyes. You're such a hero - so alone yet so brave! You gonna shoot all those bad bad people who hug bunnies, awh. Get a life you dumb cretin!

by lone gunman Thu May 15, 2003 13:00

Well foxy,
go ask BW who the bombmaker was she will tell you,seeing that she invited him down to a lecture in the batchelors inn,Ormond quay. Appx FIVE years ago.Ask him yourself he runs Belfast for your terrorist group.If it doesnt exist for years in belfast,as you claim why then is it still on the contact of the AHS website??
JF was kicked out of ICABS for his apperances in court in limerick for death threats to a disabled person,attempted arson and distruction of property in Glin ,co limerick.He got off on a technicality. {Pity, we only have to be lucky once.}As was JT BTW for his support of Webb the terrorist,who is good at kicking ten year old kiddies BTW
you still didnt quote an independant source for your assault,but YOU have all the evidence,of course.What did the other side have,it obvisouly was more factual
Good on the gards and judge for throwing your pathetic staged law suit out.A std ALF tactic I belive?Have you proof that the judge is a hunt follower?you would have had a case for a hung court then.As I said before ,big boys games,big boys rules.If you plan to attack somone expect retalitation.In any shape or form.
Have you ever seen the place wher JT works from as well as badgerwatch??Worth appx 350K plus in one of the best suburbs of Waterford.drives a big jeep as well.More than I have.Wonder where your money is going?It's BS to suggest you lot are poor.Rich bored middle class wanna be radicals more like.
Ever hear the expression lies,damn lies,and statistics?Considering that BWs husband works for the Indo I would doubt any claims from that paper Re fieldsports,doctored at source.Still pissed off that NARGC exposed your attempts to infiltrate the schools.You lot bleated about NARGC being in the classroom as well and therefore both organizations lost that classroom battle.You didnt answer my question ,that if you have so much support,why couldnt you field more than 20 people compared to over 100,000[Met police stats] people at the countryside marches in London.Also why was it only your side that got arrested?
You still havent answerd why most of ALF in jail is there for possesion of explosives or bomb making material?Hardly needed if you are such a "peaceful"organization.BTW this isnt conspiracy this info is available on the ALF USA website. which of course ,no doubt you never look at!! Just facts,as well as plenty of jail bait convicted in the courts in the UK.As for Heroin dealing ,happened in london appx six years ago,a ALF cell was dealing heroin to finance their campain.Was hushed up because one member was a son/daughter of a prominent politico. Charming people.Care to comment?
Ok as hunt scaum.[I presume you meant scum?try your spell checker]Of which i am not i have never ridden to hounds.you should really read up on some naturist books on mink..but never let a good propaganda coup stand in the way of truth,which it never does with ALF
you really sound unhappy about somthing.Everyone is scum,facist[do look it up in the dictionary,everyone who doesnt tow the line here is one.must be more that the entire facist parties of thirties europe here.BTW if you dont know what a dictionary is.I'll give you a def A programme foor setting up a centralised,autocratic national regime,with severe nationalistic principles,exerciseing regimantation of industry,commerce and finance,rigid censorship,and forcible supression of opposition. That doesnt sound like any fieldsport group I know of.Sounds more like ALF and the animal nazis.

As usual when an animal nazi runs out of arguements he/she/it attacks its opponents on a personal level. Yes,I have a life, and I dont have to go around with a chip on my shoulder looking for a cause to fight,because i am so fustrated,incompetant or a general looser in life that I can only get my jollies by being a terrorist group hanger on.
Grow up you sad little person

by angela.dempsey - - Thu May 15, 2003 16:36 angeladempsey at yahoo dot co dot uk - -

Ahh. Its sooo good to see '[email protected]', alias Sean Mc Govern of the Irish Shooters Rights organisation back making comments as the lone gunman.
Glad to see your writing skills have improved so much with only abour 25% of the spelling mistakes you used to have.
Still making up fairy tales about animal rights activists. Give it a break, you are just back on the scene because NARGC are under fire and will lose their PR company very soon.

by Lone gunman Thu May 15, 2003 19:07

But I hope whomever that is gets this information.
Looks like he really was a burr in the animal nazis backsides.HeHeHe Ah well Angela I guess you cant handle the truth either

by jazzy Fri Dec 03, 2004 03:07 jazzy at mailinator dot com 65 912345678

Halal slaughter is not inhumane like some people like to think. It is done by cutting the jugular veins of the animal with a very sharp knife. The animal must be alive when it is being slaughtered. It is not slow and painful death like it is generally thought. It is quick haemorrhage and loss of blood pressure to the brain of the animal. So the animal loses consciousness and thus the ability to feel pain. Do you know that when people commit suicide by slitting their wrist, they are not experiencing slow and painful death as their blood flows out. It feels somewhat like losing consciousness or sleeping. They had suicide parties during the ancient Roman times... The point is, as the blood flows out, it is not slow and painful death. The animal is calm and not distressed at the time of slaughter. The slaughterer recites prayers as he slits the jugular vein of the animal and must look into the eyes of the animal as it dies. This does not sound like an inhumane method of slaughtering to me. Have any of you watched the Halal slaughtering of an animal in mosques during the Hajj? It's one good way to fully understand the importance and humanity of Halal slaughter.

by ebby Fri Dec 03, 2004 14:44

Maybe you’ll all protest against ‘Bushmeat’ impotation while yez are at it