Posters in Dublin City

by pat c Thu Sep 21, 2006 15:41

i would suggest y'all print off this letter. and show it to any council employees who are misbehaving by tearing down posters.

by posterboy Thu Sep 21, 2006 15:42

I suggest you all post this notice all over Dublin

by BRéNOC Thu Sep 21, 2006 15:54

.
A blanket poster ban constitutes a De Facto ban on freedom to communicate ones opinions,
ergo it would be considered a disproportionate measure
with respect to its declared aim,
to control litter.

It would fail to stand up before the Supreme Court.
( See BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN Article 40.6.1.i )

On an ancillary question,
if the lamp posts are fair usage of public property,
where do the poles at LUAS stations fit in ?

I mean the ones that ARE NOT carrying electric cables.

While the operation of the service is in the hands of a private operator,
are the stations themselves private property ?

by LaLa Thu Sep 21, 2006 16:11

Whats the story with having to take down posters after what they're advertising is finished.
Like the way political parties have to take down election posters after an election or they get fined, will this apply also ?

by Dermot Lacey Thu Sep 21, 2006 20:47

I cannot give a definitive answer on this one but presume that as with Election Posters they should be removed by those who erected them within seven days of the event being held.

by Rosa Thu Sep 21, 2006 22:39

I rarely find myself in agreement with DL and I am an implacable left critic of Labour, but credit where credit's due, he's taken a principled stance on the poster ban and he's followed through on his commitment to raise the issue. Fair dues also, of course, to the campaigners who organised against the ban and also to Cllr. Joan Collins who proposed the original motion overturning it, seconded by an SF cllr. as far as I remember. Good work all around.

by Coilín ÓhAiseadha Fri Sep 22, 2006 00:28

Thanks to all who have been involved in removing obstructions to our constitutional freedom to exchange ideas.

Moving right along:

Why should we make do with postering on poles and other items of street furniture that are not specifically designed for postering? Surely every community should have custom-built notice boards on which to put up posters communicating information regarding events and issues of interest to the community?

Can anybody tell me what provisions are currently in place to permit citizens to erect, maintain and use community notice boards in public places, e.g. busy street corners in Dublin city centre? Can anybody tell me whether there is any legislation to _prohibit_ members of a community from erecting notice boards of their own design and construction in public places? Or to regulate, or even promote the erection, maintenance and use of such notice boards by members of the community?

Best regards,
Coilín.

by Dermot Lacey Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:41

First of all "Thanks" Rosa for your comments. i suspect that we agree on far more than we disagree about. it is really all a matter of degree. As a practicising Public Representative I suppose I approach issues in a different sense than an "activist" might. However I also believe that we need each on the Left in order to advance any progressive cause in Irish Society.

In relation to the Community Notceboards I agree with Colin. We have one at the entry to the estate i live in. In general terms I believe that both Councillors and the City council would support these. There would have to be some controls in terms of where they were located and regular clearing of them.

Arising form the suggestion here I will table a motion to the Housing and Community Committee to see how we could advance this in a sensible manner.

by Seán Ryan Fri Sep 22, 2006 17:45

This Morning, I noticed that some posters had survived last night's winds on O'Connell street. Specifically on the central divide at the junction of Abbey st. I mention this one because I have before and after pictures of it, which I will publish later. I passed this way some time close to 9.30am this morning. There was a poster there, advertising tomorrow's march organised by the IAWM and others. It was gone by 4.00pm, as was every other poster advertising this event (on O'Connell st).

Before I'd go drafting new distractions Dermot, I'd see that the current issue is sorted.

Personally I don't agree with these boards that have been proposed, as they limit the scope and the physical area covered by my present and Constitutional rights. But I'd be very willing to discuss and debate it, once DCC stops behaving criminally.

by Posters removed Fri Sep 22, 2006 21:31

Posters for the anti-war march tomorrow (saturday 23rd) were removed sometime during this week (18th -22nd Sept.) from poles in the Rathmines Road area by the Corpo (I presume it was they because the posters were all down and nowhere to be seen).

by Nuber 6. - Legalise freedom Campaign Fri Sep 22, 2006 23:32

Dermot.
Why do you refer to People who seek to re-instate their Rights enshrined in Our / ....YOUR Constitution as 'Activists' and 'left'? Rights that are violated by the Legal Department of D.C.C. When all they seek is a level playing pitch , initially put out of balance by the likes of yourself and the rest of the Dublin City Council LODGE Members.?

by Dermot Lacey Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:29

Nuber6 I never voted for a Ban on Postering and neither did any Labour Councillors. I did not think the phrase "activist" was offensive and was not trying to be. On Indymedia of necessity you use shorthand language that I hope all can understand.

by Rosa Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:07

I think the idea of community notice boards is, in principle, a good one. I would be worried though that the Corpo bosses would use the idea to reimpose the poster ban so I would tend to agree with Sean that it would probably be better if Dermot, Joan and our other friends on the council kept up the pressure so that the removal of posters is comletely halted. Then we can have a broad debate as to the best proposal to put forward regarding protecting the right to free speech, free assembly via postering etc.

BTW as to Dermot's use of the word 'activists', personally I think that word is fine. It simply means a person who acts to bring about change. Being called an activist is complimentary.

by number 6 - legalise freedom campaign Sat Sep 23, 2006 14:21

When will the D.C.C.Lodge ban its unlawful act of removing Posters?
This does not only effect 'Activists' but , all Citizens.

by Dermot Lacey Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:00

I thought I had answered that one. As a Council we have vioted to lift that wrongly imposed ban and as posted at the top of this thread we have also secured a ruling that posters not be removed improperly.

Dermot

by Number 7 - legalise freedom campaign Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:50

I mean, the Physical act, of removing Posters. Posters are continually being removed...............as we speak.
...'the wrongly imposed ban.'..............you mean the unconstitutional arrogant behaviour of the D.C.C. Legal Department lodge mob members , of which you are obviously a part as their nice P.R. Man , Dermo.
None of us are fooled out there Dermo. We know exactly what's going on and who is involved.

by Dermot Lacey Sun Sep 24, 2006 14:00

Number 7 I do not support the ban on such Posters - Can I be any clearer than that. I have taken all steps open to me as a Councillor to support the right to poster. I have supported the steps taken by Councillor Joan Collins and have taken some of my own. I am not a spoekesperson for the City Council Executive and oppose their actions in this regard.

I support the provision of Community Noticeboards because it may assist community groups - it is not intended that these would be a substitute for the Right to poster.

The Right to poster in my view also includes the duty to remove them when the releavant is over. Hopefully that is clear.

by Seán Ryan Sun Sep 24, 2006 15:08

I think there's lots of confusion about the illegal poster ban. I think denial adds to this confusion.

The poster ban is still in effect. This fact cannot be denied, regardless as to denials.

The poster ban was implemented by DCC to begin with. The act of introducing the Poster Ban to begin with was facilitated by criminally misreading Dáil legislation. A ficticious Bye-law was the result of this criminal act. Newspapers even covered the introduction of this pseudo-bye-law. However when it came to light that the Bye-law was ficticious, newspapers didn't follow this up. Nor did any councillor, Labour or otherwise.

Labour did not prevent the illegal and unlawful implementation of the Poster Ban. Mr. Lacey would have us believe that it sublimated into being. The 'he came outta nowhere' excuse that we often hear at accident scenes.

This is an issue of national importance, and yet, the likes of Pat Rabbite has never mentioned it publically. This is to support the ban by an act of omission. Remember that one can sin by an act of omission.

I remember around the beginning of the Summer, that there was an internal investigation going on - to do with posters of Enda Kenny (leader of Fine Gael/Blueshirts) being posted up all over the shop and in close proximity to the Mansion House too. Tell me Dermot, was this investigation dropped? And was this the sole purpose of the later vote to lift the Poster Ban by DCC? If not what was the result of this investigation?

And why are we still talking about notice boards? This is just more mud in the water, when DCC still impose a blanket ban on the freedom of thought and of expression.

If we must talk about it - let me throw some clear mud into the pool. Calculate how much space is given over to commercial use for publication of commercial products and events and notices. Divide this figure by the number of bodies they facilitate. Multiply this figure by the population of Dublin and you'll have the ammount of space due to the people of Dublin. Anything less is shite talk.

Enough of the shite talk. Let's have some action. Since you like the term activist, Dermot, let's see some action, not just bluster about it.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:31

Sean,

Your postings are classic examples of someone who looks for defeat in victory. The facts are the Poster ban was wrong. The elected Councillors on Dublin City Council foughtt o overturn this wrongly ban. When we found out that the Council was still imposing a ban we sought chnage and secured a copy of the letter instructing council staff not to take down posters. I posted that on Indymedia to be of assistance and because of thnat that you turn on me. Strange!

The Community Noticeboard is not proposed as an alternative to legitimate postering. It is being put forward in order to enable communities have local postering sites for community type events.

My opposition to the ban is based on a principled belief in the right to free speech and to advertise political events.

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Sep 25, 2006 13:00

Dear Dermot,

Following your, at times, personalised wrangle with Sean is instructive and, quite often, amusing. The reality of the situation, however, is that about 70% of the IAWM/PANA/NGO Alliance posters for Saturday's march were taken down by Council employees within 12 hours. I am aware of the decisions you mentioned, I am aware of the written correspondence, yet the reality on the streets is that workers from the Council are taken the posters down - ripping them and binning them. Twice, over the last few days, arguments about what they should and should not do, got quite heated and in one occasion, one arrogant eejit in question threatened two IAWM members with "deportation" if they insisted "putting up this shit" and them being foreigners and all!!
This creates a situation, dear Dermot, that sooner or later anger will replace understanding and action will take over patience. Anti war activists and comrades from the Left cannot forever sit back and watch their work and constitutional rights trampled.
Please, I am not suggesting, this is a personal issue with you, or with Joan, and all the other Councillors who are doing your best. I am simply trying to let you understand how quite a number of us feel right now. I am sure you grasp where we're are coming from. As things stand, we are being messed around....a proper discussion may point to the way forward. Could, for example, your esteemed leader make a statement on the issue? The Dail cabal is coming back -any chance it can be raised there? Can we call a proper Press Conference? Any further ideas?

by Dermot Lacey Mon Sep 25, 2006 13:06

Michael,

I would be more than happy to talk to you about this and perhaps a cross party/activists Press Conference could be convened on this issue. If Posters are being removed they are being removed in direct defiance of the agreement of the elected Council and the stated letter from the Assistant City Manager. I am not much good at the whole media thing myself but would happily work with ohers who are.

Please contact me at: [email protected]

by Dermot Lacey Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:39

I note that not one of those who have correctly complained at the imposition of the ban on posters has yet responded to the offer to talk on this matter. The offer stands