Did a U.S. Navy fighter crash off the Irish Coast?

by Coilín Sun May 07, 2006 12:59

A Hercules cargo plane of the United States' Air Force made an emergency landing at Shannon on 30 December last because it was leaking fuel. It has been said that this plane was on its way back from Iraq or Afghanistan, so perhaps the fuel tank had been struck by a bullet or shell while in the field of combat.

(USAF Hercules crew lodge at Limerick hotel
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73658 )

Similarly, maybe the F14 whose tail fin was washed up on a beach in Cork was on its way back from Iraq or Afghanistan and crashed at sea because it could not make it to one of our airports?

As far as I understand, a military aircraft in distress may be permitted to land in a neutral country in case of emergency, with the caveat that the Hague Convention obliges a neutral country such as Ireland to intern all foreign belligerent soldiers who arrive on its territory during time of war.

Best,
Coilín.

by Mike Novack Sun May 07, 2006 14:37

ROFLOL

Do yourself a favor and do a little research before writing silliness.

Look up the range of a Tomcat and you will see that one flying back from Iraq would be totally out of the question. Ground support aircraft are't intended for long distance fighting.

Unlikely to be from excersises anywhere near Ireland. If this was a floating tailfin, then why not from an accident off the coast of the Northeast US. We have A10's doing exercises above us all the time and it would be a rare week when I didn't see a pair of them working out, practicing low level among our hills (I'm about 70 miles inland).

The Gulf Stream? Ever heard of it? For anything floating off the East Coast of the US to end up on some Irish beach is NOT unusual. Before jumping to conclusions about A10's flying around Ireland do the research to determione that there haven't been ANY A10's lost off the East Coast of the US in the last year or so.

by Y Sun May 07, 2006 15:39

You beat me to it Mike. I’m tired of all these anti-war people who have barely any knowledge of military equipment making stupid accusations that change the opinions of some people who read them and wouldn't know the difference.

"There are regular reports of U.S. fighter activity over west Cork, which, of course, is illegal and a violation of Irish Airspace, unless specific permission is given for each flight by the Minister for foreign Affairs." I know a bit about aircraft and aviation in Ireland and I haven't heard about these "regular reports". Any reports that I have heard about almost always are before an airshow.

Also Coilín, any leaking fuel tank caused by being hit with a bullet over Iraq or Afghanistan would end up in an emergency landing a lot closer than Shannon, somewhere like Iraq or Afghanistan or a neighbouring country. Also by the way, leaking fuel tanks happen quite a lot in any aircraft.

And back to the original story, F-14 were all retired in February 8th this year. So any tail fin from an F-14 on a US military mission would have been in the water since then. At least around 4 months and probably much longer.

by paul o toole Sun May 07, 2006 18:47

Before you criticise conclusions about finding parts of US military aircraft washing up on the Irish coast as being 'silliness' because in your (expert) estimation a tomcat wont make it from Iraq you should apply a little logic- which you claim to have in abundance -to your conclusions, you should first address the issue of mid-air refuelling. Oh ....,I forgot ....there is no mid-air refuelling going on over Irish airspace. Mary Harney (expert) told us so. Though her friends the Macelvaddy Bros are also involved in this enterprise that dosent happen here cos berty (expert) also told us it dosent happen.

And those five f-18's seen at Shannon Warport that landed in an emergency with the whole fire tender out for the fiasco because the non-existent mid-air refuelling plane couldent deploy the umbillical refuelling line diddnt happen either.
The last time I personally saw a tomcat fly was in my living room, we were having a party and someone said 'you couldent swing a cat in here'. Then Tommy picked up fliffy and you know the rest.
I love listening to people who critisize.
Remember this simple rule- war is peace-and then it all makes perfect sense.

by rusty Sun May 07, 2006 22:02

without searching the "metalurgy" database I would have thought the tailfin would not have been made of material which readily oxidises in saline solution. So if we can't look at "rust" as a sign of ageing what else would we expect?
crustacion? barnacles? This is not the first time a USAF plane is speculated to have downed in our territorial waters. I don't have much time now, sorry, perhaps someone else will search our archives for the last time, pre Iraq war, a USAF plane was "downed officially" and then "officially retracted".

by CG Sun May 07, 2006 22:07

When did the Irish Examiner become the refuge of anti-war activists, Y?

The link above didn't work for me. Trying another.

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-q...1.asp

by ollie naughton Sun May 07, 2006 23:59

the F14 in question belonged to the VF-101 Grim Reapers. They "were" a Fleet Replacement Squadron based at Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Virginia. The were stood down in September of last year.

In there history they lost 7 F14s the most recent happening in 2001. The tail fin must have some identifing markings which could link it to a lost plane.

forget about planes from iraq or afghanistan, the yanks wouldnt let a $38 million fighter jet fly anywhere leaking fuel, never mind the expensively trained pilot and backseat driver...

Most likely the F14 in question was lost off the east cost of th US the tail fin breaking off and the currents doing the rest.

Its not rocket science or another grand conspiracy....

by Mike Novack Mon May 08, 2006 01:26

Perhaps you DO need to search a metalurgy database.

The Aluminum alloys used in aircraft are ones chosen for their strength characteristics. The strength to weight ratio and resistance to "fatigue" of certain Aluminum alloys is excellent. Unfortunately many of the alloys with suitable properties in that regard are not particularly resistant to corrosion. They use very different Aluminum alloys for boats where weight to achieve the required strength matters less than resistance to corroision.

by Warren Zevron Mon May 08, 2006 02:40

They lose a lot of planes in a lot of places. Comes from being an imperial navy forwardly deployed. (Do you feel a "We Get Around...." Beach Boys chorus coming on....)
Here's one they lost off the east coast of Australia this year, when the USS Ronald reagan was visiting Brisbane
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1557505.htm

The year before they lost 3 sailors who got busted in a Townsville apartment & caught bringing in 11 kilos of amphetimines into Australia during the Operation Talisman Sabre exercise.

The U.S. military has a long history of losing planes and a longer history of smuggling illicit substances around the globe (give it up for Ollie North!)...sounds like they got a sweetheart deal at Shannon Airport, little hassles from the Customs Boys, so maybe you could check that oout.

by John Jefferies Mon May 08, 2006 15:34

Late last year, I think it was around the August bank holiday, I was in West Cork and was listening to air band radio (108-138 Mhz) when I picked up the tower at Shannon Airport advising a number of civil aircraft that "foreign military ships and aircraft" were engaged in exercises off the coast of West Cork / Kerry. They did not state which country was involved but they did advise a number of transatlantic planes to give the area of Mizen Head a wide berth. Reading between the lines I believe there was at least one aircraft carrier involved. I made enquiries at the time but as they were outside of Irish territorial waters there was nothing to be said on the matter.

However a few days later I was talking to someone who had been hillwalking near Carrantouhill who said they had seen military aircraft flying very rapidly at very low altitude. They could clearly see the pilot in the cockpit, but didn't know enough about aircraft to identify the model.

Also, I remember around the same time a piece appeared in the Irish Examiner saying a Co. Cork based trawler had recovered a wheel from a plane somewhere east of the Old Head of Kinsale. Some speculation that it had something to do with the Tuskar Rock crash of 1968, but I believe the wheel was sent to England where it was allegedly recorded as having come from a 1950s era US military jet which may have fallen overboard from a ship back then!

by Willie Munzenberg Mon May 08, 2006 15:47

"Late last year, I think it was around the August bank holiday, I was in West Cork and was listening to air band radio (108-138 Mhz) when I picked up the tower at Shannon Airport advising a number of civil aircraft that "foreign military ships and aircraft" were engaged in exercises off the coast of West Cork / Kerry. "

It is often difficult to know what purpose these foreign aircraft are serving. JJ will be aware that in the past US aircraft spied on his comrade Sean Garlands meeting with Madam Bao of the CCP. Perhaps the CIA/DIA/DOJ wanted to keep up to with Sean and his company GKI. That might explain the prescence of the aircraft.

by rooster Mon May 08, 2006 21:26

that are commenting about this piece of fuselage as if it was the Roswell incident are hilarious!!!

by rusty Mon May 08, 2006 21:44

you have explained something to the average Irish readership whose background probably didn't go beyond Leaving Certificate metalurgy studies, which during The Troubles wasn't very good at all to be honest.

by Coilín Tue May 09, 2006 00:41

Thanks for your comments, Y too shy to identify.

You may say what you will, but what I know from people who were there at the time, including retired army commandant Ed Horgan, is as follows:

1. A Hercules C130 landed at Shannon on 30 December 2005. A fire engine drove out onto the runway just before it landed - something that is not part of the routine for every landing.
2. Crew in sand camo got out of the aircraft and were transported to a hotel in Limerick. At least one member of the crew stated that they were returning from combat in the Middle East. A correspondent for Indymedia observed signs suggestive of battle fatigue, including anxiety and disorientation.
3. A witness on the scene saw photographic evidence of a leaking fuel tank on the starboard wing.
4. The aircraft remained at Shannon for several days.

Read more here:
USAF Hercules crew lodge at Limerick hotel
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73658

Now, perhaps you will agree that it is just conceivable that the fuel tank suffered minor damage while in Iraq and that the defect remained undetected until the forces exerted on the plane during flight made a leak appear. And presumably the leak was not detected until the aircraft had reached a point where Shannon was the most convenient place to land.

Alternatively, I can accept that it is possible that this was all an elaborate charade. It is possible that the crew were just trying out their sand camo over the North Atlantic when they all decided to land in Ireland to celebrate the New Year. It is possible that the photos of the fuel leak came from another time and place, maybe even another aircraft. It is possible that the crew invented a sob story about being on their way back from the Middle East and having to land in an emergency, and the ground crew rolled out the fire engine to help them to keep up the pretence, and then the crew pretended to be nervous and confused at the hotel so that the locals would feel sorry for them and leave them to enjoy their pints of porter in peace.

I can imagine that some reservists would prefer to spend New Year's Eve drinking with their buddies in a cheap hotel in Limerick than to go home to their families in the United States. Maybe their families all live in trailer parks, like we saw in that Eminem movie, 8 Mile?

Best,
Coilín.

by Y Tue May 09, 2006 01:24

No Coilín, not too shy, just don't trust some of these Anti-War protestors. I've using Y for a while anyway, why would I change it!

Anyway, if they came from Iraq, they probably are from combat in Iraq. What type of C-130 was it? It is never mentioned, at least from what i have seen. If it was an AC-1330 it would be directly involved in combat, other types less so. Just because they said they came from combat in Iraq does not mean that they came directly from combat. A C-130 is kind of more of a theatre transport, in the general area when on operations. Although not necessarily always.

If they are flying a military aircraft they will be wearing military uniforms and if they came from the middle east, yes they should be wearing desert tri-colour camouflage, obvious don't you think, im not disputing that.

Now you are saying that there was a fuel leak and that a witness saw this fuel leak. Now if a plane has a fuel leak then yes a fire tender will be called out just to make that clear. And Coilín, fuel leaks on planes, especially military ones happen, all the time. If Shannon was the closest or most convenient airport to land at, then that’s why they would have landed there.

Now I realise that you’re really talking out of your ass in your post but here's a couple of answers and questions anyway. And with the "trailer park" cliché and the other bull you started rambling on about it shows you really are stuck on what you believe, right or wrong, and really haven't got a clue about what you’re talking about.

All the Best
Y

by tomcatdude Tue May 09, 2006 01:30

First of all the marking is for VF-101, which as stated, is a training squadron which means it barely ever leaves the states. Secondly the tail marking is a older version, about 2 years ago the squadron changed to another tail marking.

by rooster Tue May 09, 2006 03:18

"A correspondent for Indymedia observed signs suggestive of battle fatigue, including anxiety and disorientation."

Well duuuuhh, they were on a long haul flight from the middle east, so maybe they just had jet lag???

by Laoch - Éire Tue May 09, 2006 09:03

I never heard such bullshit in all my days. Who gives a continental where the tailfin of an obsoleted US navy aricraft floated in from.

by evil inside Wed May 10, 2006 07:56

This is a story? I think it is funny that the tone set by some of the posters is so anti american. Since when are all of you experts, do you know what agreements the IRISH goverment has with the US? I don't, but I bet we arent just flying into your territory without any agreements. Dispite all the anti americanism in Europe and our own US media we are pretty responsible people. You ought to see how many countries bring their members of the military through here, but no one here that I know of is making it out to be a conspiracy. ( I can just hear how ridiculous it would sound) Ive seen several foriegn countries military aircraft parked on U.S. soil doesnt bother me a bit.
Wish you all could root for us every once in a while, but that is probaly too much to expect. Thats all right though @ 55% of us still have the spine that europe and the liberals in this country are missing so we will fight the bad guys while the rest of you kiss up to them. Have fun with that whole Islamic radicalism, maybe koffi and the rest of the U.N. will come to your rescue, unless the bad guys have some oil money for them, then your screwed
Oh yeah just to make sure everyone is clear seems how apparently many of the posters did no research at all to back up their conspiracy theories, the F-14 has not been flown for almost 2 years, the markings are from an F-14 squadron based in VA. Happy to disappoint you haters because this is not from any plane damaged in combat.

by Grim reaper Wed May 10, 2006 10:56

The Tailfin is from Serial no 162594 / AD-136 which crashed near Key West, Florida 2002, Both Crew Ejected Safely. Check it out people.

For the last poster, The Tomcat is still flying and actually being retired in September this year at NAS Oceana so you can all go an see one do a bit off flying - I was there last year for the airshow - Great stuff.

So thats the end of bullets, rockets, flying around kerry mountains andTuskar rock conspiracy theories

So Long Baby!!

by Coilin Wed May 17, 2006 03:37

Thanks, Y.

From your comments, it seems that we now agree that it is conceivable that the Hercules that landed at Shannon on 30 December last was struck by a bullet in Iraq and that it subsequently developed a leak and landed at Shannon because that was the nearest place.

I'm not stuck on this point of view, but nobody has given me any reason to doubt that it is the most likely interpretation of events.

I don't see why a crew coming back from Iraq and landing at Shannon should be jetlagged, as Iraq is in a time zone that is only GMT +3, while Ireland is on GMT. Cock-a-doodle-doo! Time you took a look at a map, rooster.

Also, I see no reason to think that the crew lied when they said, in the course of a friendly conversation with a correspondent for Indymedia, that they were coming back from the combat zone in the Middle East.

So, all in all, I think they were actually coming back from the combat zone in the Middle East.

Certainly, the foul language of an anonymous poster who calls herself Y does nothing to change my views. On the contrary, I think such comments undermine your credibility.

As for the exact make of Hercules, perhaps you would be so kind as to take a look at the photograph on the following page and you tell us what it is:
USAF Hercules crew lodge at Limerick hotel
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73658?&condense_comment...34251
See comment entitled:
Grounded Warplane

Best,
Coilín.

by Coilín ÓhAiseadha Wed May 17, 2006 04:57 aat2004 at mail dot dk 086 060 3818

An anonymous poster calling herself "evil inside" made the following comments:
"I think it is funny that the tone set by some of the posters is so anti american. Since when are all of you experts, do you know what agreements the IRISH goverment has with the US?"

I don't find it funny at all that you take an anti-American interpretation, even if I did hint that I am aware that millions of Americans live in trailer parks - a bit like the mobile homes of our Travellers.
(About 22 million Americans live in mobile homes: http://tinyurl.com/z8c8o )

What is bugging us is not the existence of Americans in the world, but precisely the agreements you mention, which our "rogue neutral" government has made with the US to permit the American war machine to rumble through on its way to Iraq.

One of the reasons these agreements bother us is that we know that impoverished Americans, fine young men and women who have no other way of earning the money to get out of the trailer park and go to college, are being recruited into the armed forces to fight and die in Iraq.

It is because we love Americans that we think you should bring the troops home to their families.

Ten good reasons to love America:
1. Mark Twain.
I first read Huckleberry Finn when I was about 11 years old, and I read it again for the second time recently. I think this is the greatest work of satire I've ever read. Alternately disturbing, moving and painfully funny in the way it presents Huck's thoughts on slavery.

2. Ultimate frisbee.
Like basketball, Ultimate frisbee is a non-contact sport that requires skill and stamina more than brute force. I'm looking forward to playing in the Ultimate summer league in Dublin again this year, and I expect to have at least one American on my team, as I did last year.

(BTW: Beginners welcome! Get in touch if you want to play.)

3. Jazz.

4. Muhammad Ali.
Several times heavyweight boxing champion of the world, if Ali had been a young man today, he might have said: "I ain't got no truck with the Mehdi Army."

5. Pecan pie.
“Mrs. Trillin’s pecan pie, so nutritious and delicious
Will make a wild man mild and a mild man vicious.”
- Calvin Trillin

6. Free speech.
Enshrined in the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States as follows: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The riots in Dublin on 25 February demonstrate that Ireland - like most European countries - lags far behind the United States in our observation of the principles of free speech.

Free speech is what entitles Americans to express your contempt for the policies of George W. Bush - probably the most destructive and unpopular president the US has ever had. Some patriotic Americans don't want to criticise the president in time of war, but just remember that Dubya is the one who got you into this mess in the first place.

America deserves better!

7. Howard Zinn.
Historian who wrote A People's History of the United States. Probably the most interesting and enjoyable history book I ever read.

8. Eddie Rockett's.
Irish burger restaurant chain based on the concept of the American diner of the 1950s and '60s.

9. Elvis.
Often to be heard in Eddie Rockett's!

10. Samuel Goldwyn.
Born to a Jewish Polish family, he became a naturalised citizen of the United States in 1902 and went on to give his name to the MGM film studio.

Some of his memorable quotes include the following:
- Having lost sight of our goal, we must redouble our efforts.
- We can't get a volunteer army unless we draft it.
- We will keep on fighting until the violence ends!
- I would much rather prefer to be non-committal.
- Include me out!

Best,
Coilín.

by rooster Wed May 17, 2006 12:18

"Maybe _you could tell _us what kind of Hercules is in the picture?
As for the exact make of Hercules, perhaps you would be so kind as to take a look at the photograph on the following page and you tell us what it is"

-it has four diagonal protrusions on the tail, this would seem to indicate that it is a hercules solo variant which is basically an airborne radio station.

"it seems that we now agree that it is conceivable that the Hercules that landed at Shannon on 30 December last was struck by a bullet in Iraq and that it subsequently developed a leak and landed at Shannon because that was the nearest place"

-Yes, it is concievable, so what? its also concievable that it was a bird strike!!

"I don't see why a crew coming back from Iraq and landing at Shannon should be jetlagged, as Iraq is in a time zone that is only GMT +3, while Ireland is on GMT. Cock-a-doodle-doo! Time you took a look at a map, rooster"

-oh dear Coilin, just where do you think I've been posted for the last five and a half months? where do you think I'm posting from? If you had actually read the comments from the others on the thread you would see that because of its low speed (about 300 knots) it is only used as an in-theatre transport and is not intended for intercontinental flight.

So, lets have a look at that map coilin, or as we prefer to say in the military, a Chart. If the preflight checks, preparation and taxiing takes an hour or maybe two and the flight to Ireland was maybe nine hours or more there is every reason to believe that the air crew were in need of a shower and some sleep, I would doubt if they would fly all the way from Iraq to their home base without stopping off somewhere, they would have had to stop at least a couple of times anyway to refuel anyway.

"Also, I see no reason to think that the crew lied when they said, in the course of a friendly conversation with a correspondent for Indymedia, that they were coming back from the combat zone in the Middle East"

-define combat zone, that could be just about anywhere in the middle east these days

So, all in all, I think they were actually coming back from the combat zone in the Middle East.

-I agree, what with them being in the military and it being a military aircraft thats not really front page news, is it?

by Caobhin Wed May 17, 2006 13:30

The riots in Dublin on 25 February demonstrate that Ireland - like most European countries - lags far behind the United States in our observation of the principles of free speech.

Wow- deep analysis there pro-septic; the only danger to free speech on 25th Feb was from uniformed thugs trying to baton residents off the streets to facilitate an unwanted sectarian march through their own city. Ever heard of Section 31? - there is never any conservative opposition to the real curtailment of free speech so spare us your silly soundbites.

PS - Eddie Rocketts me arse

by rooster Wed May 17, 2006 22:35

"Perhaps it was limping back from Iraq? by Coilín Sun May 07, 2006 11:59
maybe the F14 whose tail fin was washed up on a beach in Cork was on its way back from Iraq or Afghanistan and crashed at sea because it could not make it to one of our airports?"

if that was the case it would have flew over about twenty countries on the way back from Iraq, why not land at one of those??

by prodolic Sun May 21, 2006 12:04

it was on its way to bomb the afghans in the cathedral?

by Coilín Thu May 25, 2006 03:40

Thanks for your very helpful reply, rooster.

I am glad you agree that the Hercules may have come from the Middle East and accept that it might have been struck by a bullet, a point our friend Yolanda had earlier disputed.

But there are a couple of points I don't understand:

If this Hercules Solo is "only used as an in-theatre transport", how can it function as an "airborne radio station"? Is it transporting a radio station?

Also, if it is "only used as an in-theatre transport and is not intended for intercontinental flight", what is it doing at Shannon? Are you suggesting that it flew all the way to Shannon in order to refuel and go back to the Middle East again? Curiouser and curiouser!

As for the F14, I agree that it would not be very intelligent to fly over about twenty countries on the way back from Iraq, if the crew knew it was in trouble.

But then, as you know, the US Air Force is capable of doing plenty of not very intelligent things, such as participating in an invasion that has given Iran significant political influence in Iraq.

Best,
Coilín.

by PRODOLIC Mon May 29, 2006 21:55

But then, as you know, the US Air Force is capable of doing plenty of not very intelligent things, such as participating in an invasion that has given Iran significant political influence in Iraq.

I think that when the Presiudent has made the decision to invade and then occupy the US Air Force can't really just say "we're gonna sit this one out" get a grip coilin your talking as if the forces of a country have a choice when the politicians give the orders!

by rooster Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:37

"Thanks for your very helpful reply, rooster. I am glad you agree that the Hercules may have come from the Middle East and accept that it might have been struck by a bullet, a point our friend Yolanda had earlier disputed"

-NO, what I said was that it was possible but its also possible and more likely that it was a bird strike, so what?

"If this Hercules Solo is "only used as an in-theatre transport", how can it function as an "airborne radio station"? Is it transporting a radio station? Also, if it is "only used as an in-theatre transport and is not intended for intercontinental flight", what is it doing at Shannon? Are you suggesting that it flew all the way to Shannon in order to refuel and go back to the Middle East again? Curiouser and curiouser! "

-Yes, it carries a radio station that can transmit on several wave bands such as AM, FM, HF, and military communications bands and it also carries a TV station that can transmit in colour over a war zone/occupied country. What is it doing at Shannon? Its used as an in theatre transport but it has to fly out there in the first place and will return to its homebase for major repairs.

by rooster Wed May 17, 2006 11:18
"Maybe _you could tell _us what kind of Hercules is in the picture?
As for the exact make of Hercules, perhaps you would be so kind as to take a look at the photograph on the following page and you tell us what it is"

-it has four diagonal protrusions on the tail, this would seem to indicate that it is a hercules solo variant which is basically an airborne radio station.

"it seems that we now agree that it is conceivable that the Hercules that landed at Shannon on 30 December last was struck by a bullet in Iraq and that it subsequently developed a leak and landed at Shannon because that was the nearest place"

-Yes, it is concievable, so what? its also concievable that it was a bird strike!!

"I don't see why a crew coming back from Iraq and landing at Shannon should be jetlagged, as Iraq is in a time zone that is only GMT +3, while Ireland is on GMT. Cock-a-doodle-doo! Time you took a look at a map, rooster"

-oh dear Coilin, just where do you think I've been posted for the last five and a half months? where do you think I'm posting from? If you had actually read the comments from the others on the thread you would see that because of its low speed (about 300 knots) it is only used as an in-theatre transport and is not intended for intercontinental flight.

So, lets have a look at that map coilin, or as we prefer to say in the military, a Chart. If the preflight checks, preparation and taxiing takes an hour or maybe two and the flight to Ireland was maybe nine hours or more there is every reason to believe that the air crew were in need of a shower and some sleep, I would doubt if they would fly all the way from Iraq to their home base without stopping off somewhere, they would have had to stop at least a couple of times anyway to refuel anyway.

"Also, I see no reason to think that the crew lied when they said, in the course of a friendly conversation with a correspondent for Indymedia, that they were coming back from the combat zone in the Middle East"

-define combat zone, that could be just about anywhere in the middle east these days

So, all in all, I think they were actually coming back from the combat zone in the Middle East.

-I agree, what with them being in the military and it being a military aircraft thats not really front page news, is it?

by rooster Sun Jun 11, 2006 14:21

is deafening me!

by Coilín Sat Jul 08, 2006 19:57

.