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dublin |
rights, freedoms and repression |
event notice
Monday February 13, 2006 17:30
by Con Carroll - ClasWar
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Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52Can someone cofirm if this is true?
.
April 04, 2005
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69228
What ever happened to "Play the Ball and not the Player" as it says in the publishing page.
If Ainne Ni Chonnaill is "the ball", it doesn't say much for democratic discourse that an issue is metamorphised into a person. Is that not fascist-like in itself?
This being a "news" site, i'd like a bit more context.
If she wants immigration control, then she'd be supported by most. Would you rather a). bully the majority into being silent, or b). be prepared to try and win them over. If you choose a), then you and your arguments will most likely remain marginalised (at least until the putsch).
Pictures ought to tell a thousand words, but this one spells "infantile" to me.
When people carried placards in the streets of London on the third of february pictures of these events were carried on the TV and in the newspapers.
Are the media to blame for the placards?
This is a picture of an event - the event is someone holding a piece of paper with the word "racist" over Aine ni Chonaill's head. You may argue the description is incorrect - you cannot argue credibly that the picture is a lie. If this is happening, I for one demand to be informed.
Or are you some type of censor !?!
I read somewhere else on the site, redjade argueing that "the freedom to protest freedom should be supported -".
I'm not even protesting his freedom. I'm criticising the context-free nature of the whole shabang that's above.
I think there is only one human race. I know very little about ANC. there might have been some effort at saying why she's considered to be racist. Are 80% of the population of Ireland racist in your opinion seedot? If so, how do you propose to change their minds - by not talking to them?
We should be free to call racists racist. The forces of Political Correctness and orthodox oppression seem to be trying to stifle honest and open debate in which the freedom to identify racist headbangers as such has to be removed so that their shameful mental pudenda will not be exposed to public mockery.
No to the Thought Police! End Racist Oppression! No Political Correctness!
You should be aware that "seedot" ([email protected]) is a member of the IMC editorial board - a lurker, so don't expect any sense of fair playing of ball or man. Or woman.
Who gives a tiny unrepresentative group comprised of extreme leftists the right to attempt to prevent a person who shares the views of 80% of the citizens of this state from speaking?
Can someone explain to me again how posting a picture of something that happened is censorship?
The GFA referendum was supported by 97%. Under the GFA Sinn Fein have a right to be in the executive in Northern Ireland. 97% of voters support Sinn Fein. Actually, this is a bad example as at least the GFA referendum had something to do with Sinn Fein in government - there has been no referendum that had anything to do with Immigration.
Gay geori - congrats on the ability to check any of the publically archived material which shows I'm an editor. Can I suggest though you wander off and learn some internet jargon and maybe compose an argument that has a bit more weight.
lurker: In the Internet, a participant in a chat room or a subscriber to a mailing list or newsgroup who passively observes but does not actively participate in the exchange.
http://www.indymedia.ie/index.php?author_name=seedot&se...ts=on
joining editorial collective: a process which removes your ability to comment or have an opinion about anything
First of all nobody is trying to prevent Aine Ni Chonnail from speaking. She is not a fascist and she should not be confused with one. She is a racist and the PRO of the racist ICP. When she speaks she makes such an idiot of herself and her racism clearly shines through that she does far more damage than preventing her from speaking ever could.
The reason for the protest tonight is because of her protesting at a school supporting the deportation of Olivia and her child Great
She has as much right to publicly support deportations as RAR have to oppose them. Neither of you should be prevented from doing so.
Nobody is trying to prevent her from speaking, nor was their any suggestion that she not be allowed to speak.
The article clearly calls for "No Platform". That means that the protest is being called to prevent her speaking does it not?
AIne Ni Chonaill In Attendence
Tonight, the 14th of Feb, The Law Society of UCD will be hosting its Immigration debate. Among those set to speak is Aine Ni Chonaill from the Immigration Control Platform. She must not be allowed spread her hatred. A peaceful protest must take place at the debate tonight. It is on at 6pm in ThQ of the John Henry Newman Buliding (Arts). Let this woman know that Ireland is not a hatefilled society and welcomes our foreign neighbours with open arms!
Tonight, the 14th of Feb, The Law Society of UCD will be hosting its Immigration debate. Among those set to speak is Aine Ni Chonaill from the Immigration Control Platform. She must not be allowed spread her hatred. A peaceful protest must take place at the debate tonight. It is on at 6pm in ThQ of the John Henry Newman Buliding (Arts). Let this woman know that Ireland is not a hatefilled society and welcomes our foreign neighbours with open arms!
Peaceful Protest tonight in thQ. we'll be there!
Could someone please post the names of the other speakers who will be sharing the platform with the racist aine.
Seedot, don't expect any fair play from "Gay Geori". He's a lurker on the editorial list that posts under numerous names. Rarely does he post any actual information, it's mostly just "curious" or "interested" questions. He likes to think of himself as "oppressed" and a "fearless champion of free speech": he an prove it by posting comments that contain two elements. The first element will be a (usually trite) observation that contains little new information, the second will be a crudely crafted deliberate violation of the basic editorial guidelines (e.g. commenting on editorial policy or insulting someone). That way he is guaranteed that his worthless comment is removed and he can pretend that it's SO IMPORTANT that the fascists on the editorial board had to censor it. THEY FEAR THE TRUTH man!
Kieran Allen from the SWP will be speaking at it. Also speaking is Kathleen Lynch
As I am a believer in free speech I will be there supporting Aine's right to speak.
I'll be there as well. I've got a bone to pick with you.
"Kieran Allen from the SWP will be speaking at it"
The SWP leadership sharing platforms with Racists!
Whatever next!
I wonder is this part of a directive from London to go easy on those with right-wing ideologies?
You really couldnt make it up!
with wespect,
MV
"She must not be allowed spread her hatred"
This is from the article above. I'm just wondering how one can be allowed say that raising concern over the immigration issue is considered rasist or hatred. An immigration policy must be allowed to be discussed and afterall, the rar had their say and their own meetings, so why not allow others to do the same? They have just as much of a right to have a meeting/conference as the rar do. Or do the rar believe in denying them that right while only considering that its own agenda is legal and legitimate? You can't pick and choose.
I'd just like to ask some of you having read your posts whether you believe that only one side of the story should be made legal while the other side be made illegal? If the "Immigration Control Platform" raise concerns over immigration, should that be considered racist? Or is the word 'racist' being used to paint everything that's different to the rar's beliefs?
If the "Immigration control platform" wan't to hold a meeting, then they should be allowed to do so as this is a democracy. The rar have meetings and yet they are not protested against, are they? But the rar have a perception that anything different to their beliefs or policy is racist. Its perfectly 'legal' and fair for the rar to hold meetings but all of a sudden its illegal for the "immigration control platform" to hold a meeting. Now that's being biased. How about hearing two sides of the story and not just one side?
I'm just looking at the picture at the top of the page with the sign 'racist'. I wonder if R. Flynn would allow such a sign with the word 'anarchist' to be held above her head in the same way as that picture?
HeadTheBall
“call[ing] a racist a racist” is about as obvious as calling a terrorist a terrorist. Such discourse generates more heat than light. Maybe, ANC is a racist (if, in fact she believes that the lighter-skinned people are superior to the rest, or that the Irish are genetically superior to the English, or even that such phenotypical distinctions impact on various cognitive-based abilities). I don’t know what she is, since I’ve never had a chance to ask her what, why etc.
“No to the Thought Police! End Racist Oppression! No Political Correctness!”
Inverted logic – I say NO to evasion of discussion by name-calling. Engage the masses and their perceived issues.
seedot
“Can someone explain to me again how posting a picture of something that happened is censorship?”.
The picture is a staged propaganda stunt, not just “something that happened”. Since the article in which the photo is employed is calling for the silencing of disliked opinion, its censorship motives become obvious.
The image, without enough context, says more about the producer than the subject. Whose next in the pc-policing hit-brigade? Is this woman a real political threat, or a convenient hate-figure to convince yourselves that the Fourth Reich is immanent.
“The GFA referendum was supported by 97%. Under the GFA Sinn Fein have a right to be in the executive in Northern Ireland. 97% of voters support Sinn Fein. Actually, this is a bad example as at least the GFA referendum had something to do with Sinn Fein in government - there has been no referendum that had anything to do with Immigration”.
Who read the GFA? People thought they were voting for peace? Who read the 2004 Referendum and understood it? It wasn’t me who called the 2004 Referendum “Racist”. Redjade appears to have thought so, and at least one (other) indymedian agreed with the analysis of Campaign against the Racist Referendum.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/65362
So, if the people voted for it seedot, then they probably knew like yourself that it had nothin’ to do with immigration and more to do with bloodline?! Whatever their reasons, their majesties, the people saw fit to go for it, as well as ANC herself, maybe.
Opinion polls at the time, though, indicate that the same percentage of people were in favour of immigration control. Coincidence, maybe. Anyway, should they be shut up as well?
SH
“First of all nobody is trying to prevent Aine Ni Chonnail from speaking.”
As curious noted, Con Carroll, (article author) wrote
“Ainne Ni Chonnaill should not be given a public plaform for her views”. Are ye goin’ along to cheerlead?, or shout her down maybe?
“The reason for the protest tonight is because of her protesting at a school supporting the deportation of Olivia and her child Great”.
Protesting a protest, grand enough and is mentioned in the article, but the above quote from Con Carroll is in the article summary, unlike the school protest, and so, the reasonable conclusion is that she should be prevented from speaking.
“She has as much right to publicly support deportations as RAR have to oppose them. Neither of you should be prevented from doing so”.
Why does SH evade this in the subsequent comment?
Do people think that minorities should engage with or ignore majority (immigration control) opinions? Kieran Allen is well able to dispatch racism. 50 years ago, people might be demonstrating Kieran Allen in the belief that he’s a “Commie”. We’d only have something to fear from free speech if we keep ourselves shut up for fear of having inferior perceptions.
When Conor Cruise-O'Brien barred Republicans from the tv and radio, it didn't work. The oxygen of publicity made them mere mortals again.
First of all Peter, you are a member of the ICP and your opinions are as biggoted as ANC. R. Flynn is not an anarchist and being called an anarchist is only an insult to ideological idiots such as yourself.
ANC was allowed to speak last night. Con is an individual and he is entitled to his opinion but their was no attempt to prevent her from speaking. The woman is an idiot and does far more damage than preventing her speaking ever could. All the other speakers pulled out of last nights "debate" when they found out who was speaking.
As for making the ICP illegal, whats the point? They are an irrelevant organisation with no support apart from members such as Peter. They are clearly racist and if we had strong incitement to hatred laws in Ireland ANC would long ago have been locked up.
So you threaten people online? Do I look scared? My family fought tyrants, and so will I .
To all the crusties/loony lefties etc on this site.
I have met Aine before and have spoken with her. She is a friendly, intelligent woman and not a "hate filled racist" like you loony left fascists like to make out. Maybe if you took time to meet people and have a chat with them, then maybe you wouldnt be so quick to label them.
You said "R. Flynn is not an anarchist and being called an anarchist is only an insult to ideological idiots such as yourself."
I say Aine Ni Chonaill is not a racist and being called a racist is only an insult to ideological idiots such as yourself.
"you are a member of the ICP"
I'm not a member of the "Immigration Control Platform" !
Please entertain us with any more guesses because this is so typical of you to label me an ICP activist when I don't share your views!
Of course labelling anyone who tries to defend an immigration policy 'racist' or 'fascist' is perfectly legal in the rar's eyes, it always was. The question is; what would the rar do in a situation where economic migrants are coming to Ireland for reasons other than asylum? In another news article, they answered this question by saying: "What is wrong with Economic Immigrants?"!
That should sum it all up.....
Hi Pete
These loony lefties like to label people with the "racist" tag any time anyone disagrees with them. It's their way of trying to silence anyone who disagrees with their views thus stifling proper debate. Trying to reason with these people is a waste of time.
can anybody with some connection to reality tell me how publishing a picture of something that happened, when it happened, is censorship?
If you consider 'connected to reality' to include 'wired to the moon' I can.
Otherwise, um, no.
just an awareness of where and what it is that can be reflected in your discourse.
Translating into reality arguments, but quite possibly coming through your connection to the moon badman, can you think of an argument for calling the publishing of a photograph of an actual event censorship?
Given that it is not threatening and has not prevented the person from talking.
?
The moon waves tell me that she was originally holding up a sign behind her head which said "I am completely sane and quite fancy hunky black men". The horrid young man is covering her sign and censoring her message.
Either that or it's just more rubbish from the PC brigade - it's got so bad that you can hardly call a racist a racist anymore....
Banning the ICP from holding a meeting would only play into the hands of the rar. Of course they're going to try to stop ANC from holding a meeting, and if they get a chance, they would probably storm the meeting and disrupt it if they could. Yet, they consider themselves peaceful activists when they go out and form a human chain in front of the Gardai who are only doing their jobs.
Peter I have an email from yourself which you sent into RAR's email (full of deranged rantings) and your denials of ICP membership, whom you called a viable alternative, rings very hollow. There is absolutely nothing wrong with economic migration. It happens all over the world. Our economy depends on immigration now as much as it depended on emigration before. Only someone who has had their head buried in the sand and are completley removed from reality such as yourself Peter will deny this. Also it is only you who is talking about banning ICP meetings (if the few members have them), the ICP are a tiny irrelevant organisation for biggots spouting deranged lunacy from right wing nuts like yourself.
Peter a peaceful protest is just that, peaceful. As for the Gardai just doing their jobs that argument rings very hollow. Sure weren't the SS officers only doing their job when they were murdering ethnic minorities and political opponents.
I'm not an ICP member as I have already stated. Its so typical of you to label me a member of this group when I don't agree with you! Rant on.... Also I never said that economic migrants who come here to work should be deported. Asylum seekers who do not meet the criteria for asylum are sent back. Thats the way it is whether you like it or not. Wanting to abolish every single immigration law is insane. You are really going to the extremes there...
Are you denying that you sent an email into Residents Against Racism?, do you think that your email was not kept?
Its so typical of a deranged right wing lunatic to try and claim victim status for your beliefs and claim that everyone is attempting to intimidate and call you names because of your biggoted views. Your opinions of RAR's position shows that you have not read anything or any RAR posts, or any of RAR's comments in the press about demands for change to the immigration system and indeed the asylum system. It is all we can expect from deranged right wing nuts who live with their head buried in the sand.
as you can see from this comment that you made
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74217?comment_limit=0&c...38338
that you imply that you have a problem with economic immigrants. The fact that you contradict yourself and generally post nonsense is your problem not mine.
I'm not a fascist/communist and therefore believe that liberalism and free speech are the best ways of achieving long term freedom for all of us. Consequently, everyone should be free to express what they think is best for the society they live in; no exceptions. Anything less is fascism in itself.
I have many problems with migration. For example, I believe that Poland is worse off for every one if its young people who migrate to Ireland to work under Irish capitalism. There is no way that this is in the social best interest of our planet, but why do most socialists ignore this concept? Of course as a liberal, I don't believe in forcing people to stay in Poland, but I do believe that Poles should be reminded that they have an obligation to their community, just as Irish people have an obligation to their communities.
Another way of looking at this is with respect to Irish migration to the US and elsewhere. Did it help Ireland? Did losing our young people make us more backwards? Why are we the only country in Europe without abortion? Why did the Catholic church have so much control over us, while not in France for example? Because quite frankly, many of us believed that our problems could only be solved by moving to somewhere where these problems didn't exist. But this belief never helped those who remained in Ireland and indeed caused them even greater suffering in the long term. Migration is often great when viewed using an individualistic perspective, but surley socialism is about viewing things from an overall/long-term perspective.
People left Ireland because there were no jobs. But is this true? No capitalist jobs perhaps, but having grown up in a Donegal village I can tell you that there were plenty of jobs that needed doing in my community back in the 80’s. A cinema would have been nice; a school that was warm and didn't leak would have been even nicer. I believe socialism can only be achieved through liberalism and localism, rather than via communism and centralised government. Therefore I believe that it is up to Donegal communities to create their own jobs rather than depending on the gimps in the Dail to supply them with capitalist jobs. If your local school is run down, then get up of your backside and fix it!
Donegal is the poorest county in Ireland because people keep leaving it. Of the hundred of so people in my year in secondary school, only a dozen or so remain in the local area.
Notice also that I don't differentiate between migration of Poles or Donegal people to Dublin, because the results are exactly the same.
I‘m also sick of all the propaganda that’s associated with Irish immigration. When David McWilliams, Eddie Hobbs, and Pat Kenny sing the praises of immigration, you now there’s a hidden libertarian agenda. The fact is, many people are getting rich while poor people come here to clean toilets and stock shelves. There is nothing wonderful about any of this. Also, I’m insulted when people claim that Ireland has become a diverse and multicultural society in recent years. Multi-culturalism is the fact that I listen to Stockhausen and my sister listens to The Beatles. Claiming that different ethnic groups / races / religions need to come to Ireland to make us diverse is antiquated in the extreme. Culture today is a much more complex notion that the idea of an “Irish culture” versus an “English” one.
Anyway, my views about immigration are far from what is politically correct in Ireland today. Yet unlike most people in Ireland, I have made genuine efforts to limit the amount of exploitation I induce on other people. My believes might not be popular with many people here, but I know many similarly minded people who agree fundamentally with me when I express the belief that migration in general does not help our planet in a socialist context. But more importantly, do those who disagree with me believe that I should also be censored? This is my biggest fear. Should there be only one way of thinking?
I feel that if you question migration in any way, shape, or form in Ireland today you are automatically labelled a racist. Indeed when I was younger, I would have made similar assumptions. But in my case at least I don’t believe I am racist what so ever. For example, I don’t believe Dublin people are superior to Donegal people at all but I would love it if more Donegal people would remain at home and help strengthen there communities for future Donegal people.
Freedom to Think, freedom of Speak.
How did the protest go?
How did the debate go?
What did Aine say?
What had Keiran Allen have to say for himself?
A reportback would be much better that the petty mud slinging here
Hi Localist,
I know the feeling myself....I also believe that in a society where we are improving our economy all the time, we can't just be relying on Polish workers to supply our jobs. (We have to build our own). And yes, it does start from building it from our local communities and not by draining Polish people from leaving their country just to supply these jobs. I have also encountered being labelled a right wing nut when I didn't share the same view as other people. I know that the terms of this word are not applicable to me when I question the RAR's policy. In fact, its more of an automatic assumption rather than a careful analysis of my arguement.
An analysis of your argument? You are kidding right? Not only do you refuse to answer any questions put to you, but your "arguments" are about as intelligent as a goldfish, or they are just inaccurate claims about RAR positions. You are called a right wing nut because you are as verified by the email that you sent into to RAR.
>>I also believe that in a society where we are improving our economy all the time, we can't just be relying on Polish workers to supply our jobs.
The point of my post is that Donegal people are migrants to Dublin just like Poles, and that it is important to look at the effects of migration from both angles - immigration and emigration. At the moment, most people in Ireland are oblivious to the effects that emigration is having on Donegal, Eastern Europe or elsewhere. But what sickens me is the way in which people here pat themselves on the back while congratulating themselves on our new wonderfully "multiculral" Ireland, while simultaneously consuming good produced by people in slave like conditions.
"These loony lefties like to label people with the "racist" tag any time anyone disagrees with them."
"She is a friendly, intelligent woman and not a "hate filled racist" like you loony left fascists like to make out."
I attended the debate outta interest to see if she was as bad as people say and...she is. She believes that Ireland has to face up to the "Chinese Question" although she stopped short of offering a final soution to it. She believes that it's "raining Africans", 90% of which are apparently here illegally. Unfortunately "if its raining you can use an umbrella" but when its "raining africans" you can't help "tripping over them".
Kieran Allen (SWP) and Kathleen Lynch (Labour) refused to take part in the debate with Ni Chonnaill. When they tried to explain why they were not taking part they were shouted down and heckled by the Law Soc monkeys. Apparently Law Soc refused to tell the other guess speakers that Ni Chonnaill would be there and used Allens name on the posters for the debate without his permission. Another guest speaker ( i can't remember his name) used his debating time to address the Law Soc on what he saw as its authoritarian nature and the general issues of debate and democracy.
Some people here forget that the meaning of a debate is different points of view being expressed. A liberal monopoly on discussion on immigration is therefore not a debate. Yet that is what passes for debate in the Irish media, including RTE. For example, in a recent episode of the Vincent Browne Show on the radio discussing Pat Rabbitte's work-permit remarks. He had about 6 or 7 panelists. All of them were opposed to what Pat Rabbitte had said, compared to 78% in the TNS/MRBI poll supporting it. I would like to know when RTE is going to recognise its duty as a state-broadcaster to allow both sides of the immigration argument to be heard. Political-Correctness has completely taken over the media in this country. I think McDowell's recent remarks about "agenda-setters" in public-broadcasting could be said to apply in this subject matter. I sometimes feel uncomfortable with some of the language used by Aine Ni Chonaill, but I think if the 'mainstream' parties are going to continue to ignore public-opinion on this issue, then Ireland could see electoral trends not unlike France etc. Let's all debate this issue without PC censorship and in a somewhat less emotionally charged environment.
It is grotesquely unfair and cheapens this site, to attempt to eradicate any one side of a reasonable debate or allow (never mind, assist) one side to exclusively engage in assisted "debate" on what is meant to be, after all, a stated independent media source, with a core facility for feedback.
Since many on this forum purport to support a United Ireland, while supporting a liberal immigration policy, I would ask how they reconcile these views? Would a Republic in which non-nationals are a large minority (or even a majority) be so keen on reunification? Remember they will have a different national history to us. I would like to hear views on this.