Sinn Fein in more trouble

by Interested Tue Feb 22, 2005 14:05

When certain creatures use the GFA as a weapon to attack SF, then you should not be surprised if SF decide to fight back and not vote for motions which are intended to undermine SF.

Well Media Man how are things in the PD Press Office?

by Séamus Ó Cadhain Tue Feb 22, 2005 15:14

Media man should remeber that the people who opposed Hume/Adams, inclusive talks, the Peace Process, The GFA, are the same people who want to heap calumny on SF without a scrap of evidence that the party is involved, in an organised way, in any of the criminality alleged.

In fact, the only politician so far linked to all this is FF's Conor Lenihan, who received donations from one of those arrested. (His party, of course, should be sanctioned and excluded fro government until their criminality ends?).

The one SF member arrested has been released. The only man charged is from the RIRA, according to the Garda Commissioner, and we all know what that organisation thinks of SF.

Respectfully, Media Man, your assertions are specious and scurrilous. The are countered by the self-evident reality that no other party has more enthusiastically defended the GFA than SF.

by Devil Dog Tue Feb 22, 2005 15:27

1. Do you think SF and the IRA are inextricably linked or not?

2. Do you think it's acceptable for a political party to be part of a wider movement with its own heavily armed wing?

3. Do you think the IRA is involved in smuggling, robberies, hijackings or not?

4. Do you think that when people voted fro the GFA, they were voting for a situation 7 years later where the IRA remains in existence, armed to the teeth and murdering people on the QT while enjoying the benefits of the activities listed in point # 3?

by Séamus Ó Cadhain Tue Feb 22, 2005 15:47

Q: 1. Do you think SF and the IRA are inextricably linked or not?

A: I do think they are linked and thankfully so. It has been this link that has allowed Adams and McGuinness (minus the split of 1997, which took 10% of the IRA to the RIRA) to maintain a Peace Process while keeping the IRA on board. However, I do not think the link in inextricable. In fact, I believe that (and this belief has been expressed by An Taoiseach), had the deal worked in December, the link, the guns, the IRA, would have dissolved.

Q: 2. Do you think it's acceptable for a political party to be part of a wider movement with its own heavily armed wing?

A: Just as I believe that Northern Ireland should be guest to more British troops than anywhere else in the world (17,000: more than Iraq, apparently), I also believe that it shoudl be divested of all armed groups belonging to all armed bodies. (And let us remeber, those British troops have less support on this island than the IRA). I think that any type of violence or threat of violence is emblematic of a fundamental failure in human relations, but I recognise that such failures exist. In the North we have such a failure, but in order to rectify this, we must have forebearance and patience with each of the combatants in removing the gun permanently. It's not accfeptable for anyone to be armed, but they are, they have been so for many years and for deeply historical reasons. Let's deal with it rather than detract from the efforts of progressive politicians (from all sides).

Q: 3. Do you think the IRA is involved in smuggling, robberies, hijackings or not?

A: I hope not. If it is, I don't think Adams of McGuinness have any handle on it. Then we're in deeper trouble, as many of the Sunday Papers suggested. I believe that most IRA volunteers are very disciplined and have been, with some lamentable exceptions, very progressive over the last decade. If there are those who want to put it up to Adams, let's support him rather than blame him by association.


Q: 4. Do you think that when people voted fro the GFA, they were voting for a situation 7 years later where the IRA remains in existence, armed to the teeth and murdering people on the QT while enjoying the benefits of the activities listed in point # 3?

A: No. I don't think they voted for 17,000 British troops either. I don't think they voted for failed institutions, I don't think they voted for unelected British functionaried managing their affairs. I don't think they voted for the killers of Pat Finucane, Fancisco Notorantonio, Rosemary Nelson, and many other innocent Catholics, to be in the ascendancy of the PSNI. But there you go. If the house of cards isn't perfect, do we get frustrated and blow it down like truculent children (RIRA/British securocrats), or do we aim at perfecting it, changing it, building inter-community relations between Orange and Green. I opt for the latter. I hope you do to, Devil Dog.

by barry Tue Feb 22, 2005 18:46

Given that sinn fein have declared the gfa cannot be re-negotiated, how does he suggest it can be "perfected and changed" ?

. The reason a sizable minority of republicans
(including myself) utterly rejected it was not because we are "truculent children" but because our political analysis viewed it as an utter disaster for the the republican separatist position.

The GFA enshrines the unionist veto, institutionalises sectarianism, allows for the ongoing criminalisation of political prisoners and acknowledges British rule in Ireland as legitimate. It undermines totally the very notions of Irish sovereignty and nationhood.

Throughout the conflict Britain declared the conflict to be no more than a "policing problem". It is now more confident than ever in that assertion. Acceptance of the GFA by republicans has now prompted the British govt to declare that "there never was a struggle for national liberation, simply a prolonged sectarian riot".

The GFA has therefore delivered Britains entire counter-insurgency strategy in Ireland. Why sinn fein continually assert that "securocrats" wish to undermine it is a mystery to me, and I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever in this regard, never mind a coherent argument as to why they would wish to do so.

The murders of Pat Finucane , Rose Nelson etc, were part of overall British state strategy, not the work of a few securocrats within the PSNI. The PSNI is simply another British police force whose primary objective will be the maintenance of partition, and the denial of Irish sovereignty. The make up of its members is largely irrelevant.

Britains core objective has always been that it maintains its presence in Ireland. It has not altered this position one iota. It has simply altered its stance on how best that position should be maintained in order to continue its occupation. In accepting the gfa, republicans were sucked into addressing the manner of British occupation, and not the political fact of it. Therefore the root cause of the conflict remains. No form of British rule will ever be accepted by those who hold to the republican separatist position.

I do not doubt for a minute that there are many decent people within the sinn fein body who support the gfa and the "peace-process" as they genuinely believe it will bring an end to conflict as well as delivering the demand of a British withdrawal. I am convinced however that this view is sadly a mistaken one. A key reason for this mistake was and is the utter refusal of the SF leadership to allow any form of debate on the GFA, which was hurriedly rushed through the party at breakneck speed, and anyone speaking against it being silenced.

This Stalinist approach has up until now served the interests of the British governments presence well, but has done major harm to the republican position, and directly contributed towards the facist thuggery within our communities which has sadly resulted in the murder of Mr McCartney in Belfast and the intimidation of witnesses in the Short Strand.

by pat c Tue Feb 22, 2005 18:56

theres a related discussion which you and others might be interested in at

by E O Neill Tue Feb 22, 2005 19:56

It seems to me that if Sinn Fein ever does get into power, they will be quite willing to continue cutting the throats of anyone who disagrees with them. Even their own people.

Hardly surprising given that they have shot more Irishmen in the last ten years than the British.

E

by Sherlock Holmes Tue Feb 22, 2005 20:38

Well, well. Rumours, innuendo, statements without evidence. If politicians and some people commenting on this thread really gave a damn about the "rule of law" then perhaps they should allow due process with EVIDENCE being produced. This EVIDENCE will then be used to convict people in a court of law.

by Devil Dog aka Prof Moriarty Tue Feb 22, 2005 20:41

The same rule of law & due process which Tom Oliver, Eamon Collins and Jean McConville received.

by Barry Tue Feb 22, 2005 20:42

At yesterdays meeting of a Newry and Mourne District council development commitee, Independent republican councillor Martin Cunningham was threatened and abused by a number of his former $inn £ein colleagues for standing in support of the McCartney family in Belfast.

Camlough $inn £ein councillor Pat McGinn led the posses' barrage of abuse against clr Cunningham, repeatedly branding him a "tout" and an "informer".
The McCartney family have called for people to come forward and give evidence against the savages who butchered their brother with sewer rods and knives.

Despite publicly attempting to distance themselves from this crime, it now appears that the provos are standing squareluy behind the criminals involved, associates of the killers have been observed stopping witnesses in the street and speaking to them.

If the actions of Mr McGinn in Newry and Mournes council chamber are anything to go by, anyone from Short Strand considering giving evidence against Robert McCartneys murderers would do well to consider their personal safety. The word of $inn £ein and Gerry Adams has proved to be not worth a brass farthing all too often in the past.

Clr Cunningham, far from being a tout and informer, was expelled from $inn £ein last year for speaking out against the false imprisonment and fit up of a number of his constituents,. He also spoke out in support of POWs in Maghaberry who were engaging in a Dirty protest against British criminalisation policies in the norths prisons against "dissident" republicans.

This was enough to incur the wrath of the leadership, who wereonly too happy to see such treatment meted out to their republican opponents. It seems his support of the McCartney family has angered them yet again.

by pat c Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:51

for once i have to admit you scored a point there!

i always did admire prof moriarty.

by Sherlock Holmes Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:38

So Devil Dog. Due process will be ignored when it suits. Either you support the rule of law or you don't. No exclusions. Ignoring due process when it suits is totalitarian opportunism. We live in a democracy, a corrupt and innefficient democracy, but a democracy of sorts none the less. If a government willingly supported by people like Devil Dog, consistently make allegations against political parties and individuals ignoring due process when it suits, it merely shows up once again the sham of democracy in this country. Aherne showed more than due process with Lawlor, Burke and many other corrupt Fianna Fail TD's and councillors. McDowell was unable (unwilling) to bring a prosecution against the old PD member Judge Brian Curtain. These are just a few examples of where evidence existed and nothing was done. Yet we now have a situation where no evidence has been produced yet they are seeking us to believe that the IRA not only robbed the Northern bank but Sinn Fein leaders knew about it. People should wait for evidence before condemning people

by Devil Dog aka Mycroft Holmes Wed Feb 23, 2005 13:18

Maybe the SF leaders knew about it because they're also IRA leaders...or are you one of those poor lost souls who believe Grizzly when he says he was never in the IRA?

On a side note, I love it when Marty & Grizzly say they have debated issues with the IRA - it's like that Woddy Allen movie where he's in court and representing himself, jumping in and out of the witness box to ask and answer questions.

by Spinning Quickly Wed Feb 23, 2005 14:42

I seem to recall that Fianna Fool party members complained that they were being vilified, yet now one of those so vilified now sits in jail for six months.

As for Curtin, that was due to the incompetence of whoever was responsible for the search warrant - it was originally for a search a week before, but the raid was postponed for a week to synchronise it with another series of raids. I hope whichever idiot was responsible for that warrant gets a rocket. Now we have a crisis where a judge who has no credibility refuses to step down and we have to wait for a government investigation into him to take place, along with special legislation to make sure they don't lose the investigation due to a technicality!!

Curtin should resign - although he may be innocent in the eyes of the law he has NO credibility and anyone who comes before him for so much as riding a bicycle without a light will appeal their case, thus making his sitting pointless. (Personally, I believe him guilty, as my opinion is based on what was found and he got off due to a technicality.)

Speaking of nonces, does anybody have any idea why Tim Allen of Ballymaloe fame got off so lightly?

by Mr Kipling Wed Feb 23, 2005 14:46

"Speaking of nonces, does anybody have any idea why Tim Allen of Ballymaloe fame got off so lightly?"

Because they do an exceedingly good relish!

by Séamus Wed Feb 23, 2005 16:08

I admire your position Barry and certainly agree that the Stalinist position of suppressing dissent from the GFA is appalling and damaging. I indeed remember Mitchel McLaughlin telling someone they "know where the door is" when they politely opined that the GFA might cement partition. The person McLaughlin said this to was 18 and a relatively new member of SF.

However, I think the RIRA position was badly judged and, anyhow, has ended up petering out. They would have been well better placed building poltical support through meetings, publicity, debate etc. than an armed campaign which, I believe, after the cessation, has become pointless. Better to build support and try to use the political institutions (with all their obvious failings) to build the all-Ireland agenda and recognise that we are going to see the day in the next two decades when demographics or the fragmentation of unionism grants us a de-facto united Ireland. (I have no objection to unionists having people in Westminster etc. provided we have people in the Dáil and government, actual sovereigty are returned to Ireland).

by Reality Check Wed Feb 23, 2005 16:57

Barry, I commend you on your position on the murder of Mr McCartney. But I'm curious what would make "dissident" republicans different from Provos when it comes to these matters.
If a similar situation were to arise involving members of RIRA, would you recommend that witnesses visit the PSNI.

by Noel Wed Feb 23, 2005 17:02

Perhaps the Provo lovers posting about 'corrupt' FF politicians and 'innocent' Shinners should re-read their own posts.

Ray Burke and Liam Lawlor were not jailed for corruption.
Ray Burke evaded tax.
Liam Lawlor was in contempt.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven corrupt?

by Sherlock Holmes Wed Feb 23, 2005 17:07

Devil Dog, you have refused to answer the question. Do you believe in due process or not? or only when it suits you?

by tom clarke Wed Feb 23, 2005 17:51

Is the price of peace, against the BA and PSNI, UDA, LVF and UDA , being paid by the working class?

PIRA and similar republicans and their opposite numbers in Loyalist areas are replacing the "Brits" as the oppressors. They have put all their resources formerly used in the war to amassing money. I always thought there was a distinction between loyalists and republicans now I am not so sure.

Phil Flynn profile in the papers has sickened me more than any of the other PIRA activities with the exception of the murder of Robert mcCartney, the action of political jack-bootboys. Flynn former SF Vice Chair, former ICTU leader and alleged author of the damn Partnership process that negotiates an accomodation between the Union fat cats and their business compadres every few of years, spends his spare time creaming money off his substancial business directorships and holidaying with paragons of virtue like fuckin moneylenders.

If anything comes from all this shit, which I think the Garda have been turning a blind eye to for some time, I hope its the demise of this class collabrator.

As for the usual PIRA apoligists I was delighted to see that one of the raids in cork uncovered Money, AK 47 rounds and a supply of Coke. At least we can all rest easy that the money was being spent well. Next time I hear any provo taking the moral highhground about the significant differences between the 'national liberators' and the 'dupes of imperialism', I will be eating my chips taken with a heavy dose of salt.

Meanwhile back in the occupied six life goes on, unemployment, oppression, poverty and despair are the order of the day. nothing has changed except the beatings are given by irregulars instead of soldiers. The real victims of the Peace are the working classes.
An Ireland of Equals me arse.

by barry Wed Feb 23, 2005 18:31

Firstly I have not recommended anyone visit the PSNI in the Mc Cartney case. The McCartney family have however, and I totally understand their reasons why. I dont criticise them for seeking the only form of justice they feel is open to them in this civil, wholly criminal matter.

Secondly, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if RIRA members engaged in a similar incident they would be promptly expelled at the very least, and most likely severely dealt with by their own organisation. They simply would cease to be IRA members.

A few years ago in Belfast a violent thug by the name of Danny McGurk was shot dead. McGurk had previously been a member of a gang which butchered a young man named Kevin Taylor on his own doorstep in the lower Falls area. Mr Taylor was repeatedly stabbed and beaten by McGurk and his cronies, and died when a screwdriver was stabbed through his eye and pierced his brain.
McGurk was also notorious for having stabbed and beaten a number of people over the years in petty personal disputes.

One night "dissident" republicans held a prisoners fundraising night in a pub in the lower Falls. McGurk attemted to gain entry, but was turned away because he was quite rightly regarded as an undesirable. In a fit of rage he attemted to assault 2 female republicans who had barred his entry, and he was bundled out.side. Over the next few days McGurk prowled the Falls armed with a large knife and publicly vowed to kill those who had thrown him out. He was first visited by republicans, who warned him to desist, and who gave him a thumping to underline the seriousness of this point. The next day he armed himself with a samurai sword, and again went in search of a republican victim.

McGurk was tracked down and a punishment shooting administered. The final shot was fired into McGurks lower back, and he was killed. Despite McGurks violent nature, and the obvious threat he posed to republicans lives and safety, I am given to understand that those who killed McGurk were dismissed from the republican movement shortly afterwards. No-one had authorised this man be killed, and the lack of discipline shown was appalling and only served to bring an entire movement into disrepute. However those who were ultimately responsible for their volunteers activities, took action against them.

As regards Seamus, thankyou for responding to my points in a courteous and intelligent manner. I am sure there are many others such as yourself who would welcome the opportunity to engage in frank and open political debate, but however are prevented to do so for reasons Ive outlined above. I will hopefully get back to you and address the points you made, a number of which I agree with (but others I dont). A refreshing change, and thank you again.

by RS Wed Feb 23, 2005 18:34

Add to his moneylender mate the The head of the North's Policing Board, Sir Desmond Rea.
Unrepentant Republican me arse!!

by Barry Fri Feb 25, 2005 03:59

I agree with you on your point that more effort should have been made initially to establish a political base by 32csm. However things were not that simple. Amongst the base support for its position there was an understandable aversion to "politics" in the immediate aftermath of the Hillsborough accord. There was simply a major and understandable distrust by many of any political project whatsoever such was the immense sense of betrayal by political leaders.

I also agree that especially in its initial stages, aspects of the RIRA military campaign were indeed poorly judged. Firstly this was due I believe to a major difference of approach within elements of the then RIRA leadership. It is clear from any reading of that period that one particular grouping had originally planned to execute an internal coup within the provisionals. Although they came close, it is abundantly clear that this move had long been anticipated and Adams et al were able to trick and outmanouvre this element successfully. Adams and McGuiness had simply known for over a decade they were going down the Stormont road, and the initiative was always with them.

These people then found themselves in a wholly different situation than one they had anticipated. The media declared them to be lthe leadership of the "dissident" position (not strictly true) They hadnt planned to,nor does it seem some of them were even capable of , leading a smaller "breakaway" group. (the resulting public treachery which emerged from Portlaoise prison a few years ago underlines this point). Therefore it seems they embarked on a policy of a simple numbers game in an attempt to rival the provos, not taking into account the fact that

a) Adams etc was actively seeking to infiltrate the RIRA and wreck it internally at the very same time they were recruiting
b) The structures from which they sought recruits, the PIRA, had themselves been thoroughly infiltrated by British intelligence.

Therefore the well from which they drew was basically poisoned.

Also, as a grouping it is clear RIRA wished to flex its military muscle too quickly, and embarked on its car bombing campaign without taking British dirty tricks into account. This tactic in the 6 counties should have simply been confined to historys dustbin. The initial support and approval RIRA recieved was for mortar attacks on Brit installations etc and had they stuck to this their fortunes would have been better indeed. Throughout the north, and indeed on the Falls rd, support for the RIRA was undoubtedly growing. The city centre Grovesnor rd base was mortared under the Provos very noses.

The resulting massacre in Omagh therefore had major, debilitating effects on the anti-gfa position. It occured only days before 32csm were set to launch their newspaper, the traditional means of organising politically and articulating ones argument and position to the people. The fact that it occured on the very doorstep of 32csm chairman Francie Mackey left the political argument against Stormont in absolute tatters. According to the media and the politicians, police etc anyone who didnt support the gfa supported the massacre in Omagh. That is an accusation still levelled at myself here on almost a weekly basis .

This wholesale demonisation of 32csm resulted in a blanket media ban which is still in force, the abilty of state agencies to basically intern its membership (eg. last year 4 members who met openly in a cafe to organise a prisoners fundraiser were arrested by armed gards and charged with membership and holding an "illegal" gathering). Simple things like booking a hall for a meeting are far from easy. I attended a function in Belfast some years back and the premises were burnt to the ground days later. Special branch as well actively discourage owners of premises from hiring them out to the group.

However despite this, and the near imploding of 32csm throughout very difficult periods, it is probably stronger now, both internally, structurally and numerically, than ever. The ultimate effect of all this pressure was to make people even more determined to succeed. The Sovereign Nation paper has been relaunched successfully and is going from strength to strength throughout the country, a full time office is now manned and a younger generation in particular are showing a keen interest in a radical republican alternative.

Seamus' point about Mitchell McLaughlin being unwilling to debate the gfa with an 18 year old SF member illustrates the absolute necessity for a political base to be built as the main plank of opposition to it.

Finally I would disagree with Seamus point that Unionism is fragmenting. Although this may have appeared to be the case initially in the wake of the GFA, it is clear it has simply realigned, and is stronger, more extreme and more united now with the DUP in pole position. The final hoops which sinn fein will have to jump through to gain readmission to the institutions will simply reinforce Paisleys demands and his role within Unionism.

The argument on demographics itself, despite relying on a base sectarian headcount, was proven during the last census to be far from conclusive. Furthermore what is to stop Britain from simply moving the goalposts yet again down the line ? Absolutely nothing.Their priority is to maintain their presence and control here, not to honour any agreements. They never have done. The GFA simply serves their purpose today, just as the Orange card did yesterday.

As for using the existing political structures to acheive revolutionary goals, recent events have shown that once you enter them, the establishment will simply tell you what to do, and when. They have no difficulty whatsoever of turfing you out on the street if you dont toe the line. Sinn Fein members have now learned that to their cost in recent days, and as they have pointed out themselves, there isnt even any evidence against them !! And there is basically fuck all they can do about it. What hope for an end to British occupation down that road ?

by Reggie B Sat Feb 26, 2005 01:22

How's the war going Barry? The War news must be good reading in the 'Sovereign Nation'.

by Irene Sat Feb 26, 2005 01:26

Fair play to Dom Wilton. Why should he take such crap from FF, FG or Labour - all of whom actively supported and collaborated with British occupation and violence in Ireland.

Why dont you print the full wording of the motion to see exactly what the motion says?

by barry Sat Feb 26, 2005 03:19

hows the war going in an phoblacht. Oops sorry, Sean Crowe says people shouldnt join the ira. And unless your going to claim Rob McCartney as an operation Id shut the f*** up if i were you. Have you ever read the Sovereign Nation ? Try making a political argument rather than trolling sarcasm. Maybe then id take you serious, you prat.

by Reggie B Sat Feb 26, 2005 09:59

Oooh, I'm scared Barry. BTW I'm sure Crowe said that. He'd be stupid if he said otherwise as he would end up in the Special Criminal Court if he said otherwise.

The point is. Many people that criticise the IRA for its ceasefire are doing precisely that themselves. The RIRA are on aceasefire aren't they? Whether its official or not, they are not carring out any operations as far as I am aware of. When did they ever kill any British soldiers, RUC/PSNI officers?

by georgi petrov Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:34

The checks for links between Bulgarian citizens and IRA are still going on. Bulgarian Minister of Interior Georgi Petkanov announced that there is no data for the time being for Irish businessmen who visited Bulgaria last month and for whom the authorities in Ireland claim that are connected with IRA to have attempted acquiring a bank in our country and buying properties.

by mise Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:51

I saw this also in the (spits) Examiner yesterday, thought it was b*llix.

Yep this is straight out of Fianna Fail Dirty Tricks Dept

Brown Envelope to "Bulgarian Official".

Planted Story .

by "bertie in the orange tie again". Thu Mar 03, 2005 19:17

& stop being silly and call it something else.
let's not have a Good Friday agreement anymore.
Lets have a new agreement.
Let's have all the brochures, and all the voting, and all the women's coalition and all the 23 mercs of Eire going to Armagh, and all the JCBs on the beach, and all the Late Late Shows, and all the happy people hand in hand, and just call it the "Irish British Agreement".

Hasn't the auld pingin dropped yet?

You can't take ancient symbolism and change it unless you're perhaps a modern day Hitler who thinks he can get appeased all the time. You can't go calling your three strand agreement a Good Friday agreement coz the Good Friday agreement was between the local representative of the Roman Emperor Augustus and the Local king Herod and a bunch of old time zionists to crucify and mock the Christ.

That was the agreement.

Well done Bertie, Ian, David, Tony and Clinton and all the rest -
you honoured the agreement.
to the letter.

Now just be politicians, coz thats all you are, you are placed in a job, coz you're useful and represent constituencies, but you're just monkeys at the end of the day who sign things for us, you go wearing the wrong tie or a hoodie jacket and you've lost your credibility. You go getting head from an intern and you're almost impeached. And as for that Tony bloke. jesus man. will you go now?