World Vegetarian Day

by Micah Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:03

vegetarianism is unhealthy. they are generally lacking in vitamin b12, suffering also from zinc and iron deficienices. they are also more prone to cancers of the nervous system and pregnant veg women are more likely to give birth to children with birth defects. this s scientifically backed up if a person cares to do the research.

by burger Thu Nov 27, 2008 18:09

Sure half the world is vegetarian, and they seem healthy enough. Most vegetarians I know are slim and healthy, while the meat eaters look like they have a beach ball shoved down trhe front of their shirts.

Meat eaters have a habit of keeling over with strokes and heart attacks too.

by micah Thu Nov 27, 2008 18:55

i am talking about animal products from naturally raised and fed animals- not processed meats. a vegetarian diet does not provide the body with all the necessary nutrition that can be easily absorded by the body- vegetarians do not live longer and are not healthier .

by Catlady - NOT a vegetarian btw Fri Nov 28, 2008 02:18

Micah you seem to be full of "facts" yet fail to provide any evidence whatsoever. The comment of "if anyone cares to do the research" is simply laziness on your behalf (either that or, as I suspect, you have no evidence to support your claims...).

Please provide references or web links to peer reviewed research if you actually expect anyone to take your comments seriously. Otherwise I very much doubt anyone will.

I have my own issues with vegetarianism, but they are certainly not linked to B12 deficiency, zinc deficiency, or (most preposterously) birth defects!

by micah Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:34

well, yes I can provide you with the scientific support to the fact that vegetarianism is not healthy. i understand that making such a comment can generate hostility , irrationalism and a desire to censor such information from vegetarians but a diet with animal products and withsome meat (not a staple food) from healthy naturally raised animals will make you a healthier person. vegetarians do develop quite serious health problems after a number of years.as someone who has studied nutrition i can assure you of this. the scientific evidence and academic research in support of what i am saying is attached to the end of this article on the 'myths of vegetarianism' for which i provide a link.

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism...tml#2

also catlady you are wrong to say that there is not a greater risk of birth defects among vegetarians:

the link to this should make it clear i hope:http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000....aspx

by weston a.house Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:18

Here's a point by point refutation of the nonsense in that Weston Price article- http://www.energygrid.com/health/2002/06ap-stephenbyrne....html

Apart from the health implications of eating or not eating animals' bodies, do you have any moral qualms? Are there any creatures you wouldn't eat? Dogs? Cats? Apes? Horses? Your family pets?

by micah Fri Nov 28, 2008 18:32

All the points made here in relation to Weston price have actually been ignored by the institute because if you read what he says against what the institute believes you can see how it can so easily be refuted. you note for example that you agree that vitamin b12 deficiency is a problem with vegetarians and you suggest supplementation. This deficiency is quite serious as it causes damage to the brain and nervous sysyem. The fact is that animal products are the best source. The problem with supplementation in relation to this and other areas where you suggest it is needed is the fact that many vitamin mineral supplements are synthetic and very arguably quite harmful. You also forget to mention that are soils are depleted of nutritional value and as the institute has pointed out sustainable farming with livestock – not factory meat farming- is ecologically sound. So only veggies who can afford very expensive supplements from natural food sources may be able to mitigate against the long-term harmful effects of a vegetarian diet. An essentially plant based diet also makes your body more vulnerable to the toxic effects of mercury and other heavy metals as well whereas animal products (naturally raised) provide the body with protective effects. Also it is quite simply a myth that cholesterol or high cholesterol causes heart disease- cholesterol is found in every cell of your body. meatt and other animal products contain a number of powerful anti-cancer and health promoting nutrients easily absorbed by the body such as conjugated linoleic acid (CLA)

Also take minerals such as iron and zinc, essential for immune system . vegetaians often have problems here too because grains and plants contain pytates( anti-nutrients) which block absortion of these minerals and taking vit c may help a little but your best source still remains animal products – some mussles,oysters for example and once again easily absored by the human body.

Finally you mention the moral aspect of this. Well I think your approach to eating some meat - not a lot and not processed meats which are harmful- should be one of reverence and respect much like the native american tradition. I also gave the link to the research which shows the higher risk of birth defects among vegetarians. Vegetraianism does weaken the body. So which is more moral- respectually eating some naturally raised meat for its health and nutritional value helping to build strong and healthy bodies and minds or children suffering birth defects as a result of misplaced idealism and unnatural self denial?

by blah blah Fri Nov 28, 2008 19:22

"The fact is that animal products are the best source."

Animal products such as milk and eggs, yeah? You do know the difference between vegetarianism and veganism don't you?

"You also forget to mention that are soils are depleted of nutritional value and as the institute has pointed out sustainable farming with livestock – not factory meat farming- is ecologically sound. "

So, organic meat then, yeah? Could you provide some examples where this is happening on a large scale or how it could happen on a large enogh scale to provide meat to the population of the planet, even on the diminished scale you seem to be advocating but not defining? Temple bar market doesn't quite cut it.

"So only veggies who can afford very expensive supplements from natural food sources may be able to mitigate against the long-term harmful effects of a vegetarian diet."

So only meat eaters who can afford very expensive organic or "naturally raised" meat may be able to mitigate against the long-term harmful effects of contemporary western diets? Do you know the price of organic meat now a days? Do you know which meat the majority of people are eating? Cause its definately not organic.

"grains and plants contain pytates( anti-nutrients) which block absortion of these minerals and taking vit c may help a little but your best source still remains animal products – some mussles,oysters for example and once again easily absored by the human body."

Sorry, you're going to have to explain that as nearly everyone if they're following a balanced diet is going to have grains and plants in their diet, how do they get round the blocking of absorbtion? Also, how many meat eaters do you know that regularly eat mussles and oysters? Again, at what price?

by micah Fri Nov 28, 2008 20:58

i thought my comments would generate a quite heated response. the point i am making is that a vegetarian diet does not provide the full range of essential and easily absorded nutients that animal meat products provide. It does not always have to be organic. for example in ireland our beef is almost entirely grass raised and is therefore a very healthy product - less expensive so i would say than many vegetarian supplements such as cholella which the body doesn't easily absorb.in relation to B12 The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are beef, liver ,organ meats .

also i and the weston price institute do not advocate eating any western process foods, white bread, pasta, sugar products but instead whole natural foods. colourants, additives, MSG, are very often found in processed vegetarian and other foods. the institute advocates whole natural foods not denatured ones. the same applies to meat produtcts. we oppose giving cattle for example beef promoting hormones.

also it is a question of balance and a vegetarian diet does not provide hence i mentioned the importance of seafood such as mussles , oysters. You could try winkles,limpets. i think also of some vegetarians who i am aware of. one is getting b12 injections because of their deficiency; this has brought their cholesterol levels up because of the stress this diet has put their body under and their doctor then prescribes statins! the vegetarian really does not have any grasp of what is necessary for human health in terms of nutrition and how the body needs and in fact craves for some healthy meat products but instead their fogged thinking leads them down a path destructive to their health and others eating hydrogenated fat products among others instead of using healthy and natural animal fats.they may mistake the far from optimal health feeling that results as some kind of spirtual enlightment but it is not how your body grows and thrives. you wouldn't half know you people live in the city.

by blah blah Sat Nov 29, 2008 13:00

Look, I haven't even argued in favour of vegetarianism so far but merely questioned you're argument, which so far has consisted in plenty of claims and opinions stated as fact without anything to back them up, its purely assertion and done in such a way as to appear correct due to the confident way it is put across.

The main problem as I see it is that the majority of people regardless of whether they are vegetarian or otherwise, don't fit any of the dietary habits you are suggesting. The eating of liver and organ meats as well as shell fish is not something that is taken part in on any regular basis by any large amount of people. You seem to also be arguing that there needs to be a reduction in the amount of meat currently eaten (along with, and quite rightly, the type of meat eaten) but you still haven't offered any further detail on this. An argument that vegetarians don't have a balanced diet is so often used, when it is just as equally applicable to those eating meat and considering the conscious decision of vegetarians, they are usually the ones who are most aware of their diet and attempting to vary and balance it.

Your assertions regarding B12 still doesn't deal with the fact that even most meat eaters are getting their B12 from fortified foods, eggs and dairy over any meat source (chicken and beef are providing amounts only slightly over these). Most people quite plainly aren't eating a lot of liver and molluscs.

The hydrogenated fats point, I don't really understand either as there is a current backlash against this both consumer and producer based that makes this argument for the most part irrelevant. Also, I like it how you think grass is the only thing (or almost nearly) that Irish cows are being fed.

by micah Sat Nov 29, 2008 15:23

look there isn't going to be a meeting of minds here. i am not sure i can do much to enlighten you. the reality is ,as I think can be seen from what i have said and the links that i provide, that a balancecd diet with some meat ( and i admit irish beef isn't perfect) . for example i live in the west of ireland. i know the farmer who provides we with beef- i know what goes into and i challenge you to tell me how mainly grass fed beef with supplementation with some grains is harmful. it quite simply is not but instead is a very healthy product with much nutritional value which no veggie food or supplement can match. that is a fact and i challenge you to disprove it. no you wouldn't eat processed meats or beef that is injected with hormones in the USA or fed soya of course. Also some seafood which is an excellent source of iodine, zinc , etc, is easily absorbed by the body unlike vegetarian foods- a fact! not even disputed any longer by veggies because nutritional science confirms it! we also need to get back to eating as much whole natural foods as possible ( i wish we could get back to the days when many irish people grew some of their own veg in a little plot) is the way forward.

incidentally , i should point out that the price institute also advocates raw milk, which is very beneficial to health and which doesn't have the nutritional value destroyed as in pasturised milk.

as i pointed out animals need to be fed a natural diet. now aside from the moral issue of killing animals which of course involves pain and suffering ( a fact of life in the natural world).for example , in the past in our country culling had to be done because there was no way to feed all the livestock through winter . these are facts of life whch veggies are often removed from and as someone from a farming community, as someone who has studied nutrition i do have some idea what i am talking about. food needs to become more of a political issue in our country but many irish people don't place much priority on health issues and readily believe junk science and the claims made for products by the processed food industry. I can't be faulted if i decide that i am going to make health ,food and clean water a priority for me and others! if someone chooses not to well i fail to see how that is my problem. i have already pointed out the risk here of birth defects among veggies which of course hasn't been addressed nor has it been addressed that veggies are more prone to toxic heavy metals than those who eat healthy meat products, nor have you addressed how veggies can get around the b12, zinc, iron deficiencies, and you should note that these problems are compounded if the vegetarian is a physically active person.

so key to what i am saying is a balanced diet with some meat and seafood provided vital protective factors for your health MORE SO than an essentially plant based diet which is what most veggies follow. i would encourage them to eat lots of good quality butter and eggs though and as someone who has honestly studied and looked into this vegetarianism certainly long term will harm your health and well being- an unpopular view but militants and otheres within the veg movement won't force people like me into following their completely unnatural and health damaging food cult.

by vegan Sat Nov 29, 2008 19:14

"incidentally , i should point out that the price institute also advocates raw milk, which is very beneficial to health and which doesn't have the nutritional value destroyed as in pasturised milk."

Okay I would like to try this. Where in Dublin can I buy raw milk?

by micah Sat Nov 29, 2008 20:04

i only wish it were as easy. it illegal to sell it in ireland. perhaps this is one area where we could work together to change the law?

still you can always get to know a farmer and ask him to give you some.

by catlady Sun Nov 30, 2008 01:43

Vegan this is not an attack on you or your comment but...........

Micah..........

Vegan can not buy raw milk from a farmer.... well he/she can, but they are buying stolen goods. To buy it ethically he/she would barter with the cow to whom the milk actually belongs. The cow herself w2ould no doubt have little understanding ofthis and even if she did I am surethat she, like any other mammal, would prefer to keep her baby's food for her baby, were her baby not ripper from her shortly after birth.

Your arguments have been disproved scientifically. Your ethics are non existant. Keep this going if yo wish but you will be slaughtered here my dear.

by micah Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:03

well catlady,

i don't think anything has been said that disproves what i am saying. you may in fact be showing adverse symptoms of a vegetarian diet. b12 is a serious deficiency which you should research. the science actually supports my view that some meat and seafood in the diet , animal fats, offers more health protective factors than a vegetarian diet.

i can understand how this may be upsetting to you but don't you think you should honestly examine the evidence base.i challenge you once again and others to show how a veggie can get around deficiencies in the following areas which I reiterate are common among veggies. Their availability is adversely affected by the characteristics of a vegetarian diet. Nutrients affected include:

B12
iron
zinc
manganese

The best sources of these are meat, poultry and seafood,

Also take essential fatty acids such as EPA and dha – ‘essential’ for health. I challenge you to give me a veggie source which is equalling or provides a better source of these than cod liver oil which is effectively a medicine

one another point, Vegetarians and especially vegans feed products made from soy to their children.
It is very harmful to feed a baby soy formula. A baby fed soy receives through the phytoestrogens, the equivalent of approx. 5 birth control pills per day! The damage is great.

by Roger Yates Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:04

The truth is that human beings are capable of living healthily with diets that include meat and dairy and also on a vegan diet. The key to healthy eating is knowledge and planning. http://books.google.ie/books?id=N5q-o7qjOV0C&pg=PA49&lp...49,M1 Many athletes - especially those in endurance events - adopt vegan or vegetarian diets because it helps them compete.

The US Dietetic Association also emphasise that planning is very important. They state, for example, in relation to children: "Well-planned vegetarian diets — even a vegan diet — can supply all the nutrients that children require for their growth and energy needs." http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/home_16...L.htm

Since we can live as meat eaters or vegans, then the issue does become an ethical one. The animal rights view suggests that nonhuman animals are rightholders and we should not violate rights in order to eat. To be sure, there are some serious ethical issues in veganism that require addressing - for that, we need more vegans. This means we should all be wary before quickly adopting the moral high ground. However, the issue of intent is important: the vegan does not want to kill anyone whereas the meat eater deliberately sets out to take lives.

I tend to agree with psychologist and philosopher Richard Ryder who suggests that it cannot be psychologically beneficial - on a collective level - to constantly ingest the produce of violence and deliberate killing. We should perhaps remind ourselves that Tolstoy said that there will always be battlefields as long as there are slaughterhouses.

by micah Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:53

Sorry Roger. i appreciate that you are trying to sound balanced but what you are saying does not stand up to serious scrutiny. i would become veggie myself tomorrow if i was convinced that much a diet would provide me and my body with the nutrition it needs. as someone with a training in health science and as someone who has studied this area ( i am not doing this to annoy veggies) i am convinced from the research and data that eating some meat products is essential to health. you play the moral card but once again while i in no way take pleasure from the killing of the animal i could argue with scientific support that given the risk of birth defects among veggies that the real immorality lies in risking the birth of children with serious defects- i also pointed out what is effectively 'child abuse' given a baby soy feed - another point unaddressed by critics.

. also i think of attacks carried out by animal rights activists on property and on human beings, destroying human lives and te despicable viewsof someone like Singer much admired in the movement, i think of the of the death threats against people and extreme verbal abuse and i think that says it all.

you should note that not one person has been able to prove that veggie sources provide just as good as and easily absorbable sources as meat products in realtion to b12, zinc , iron , etc. why? because veggies know that all though they may be able to obtain these from veggie sources these are not as good and not as eaily absorded by the body. your point about athletes is interesting but flawed. as an athlete myself i sweat a lot - zinc is essntial here, vital to your immune sysytem hence the importance of seafood and red meat- you won't find very good sources in pulses!.

by Ancient Veggie Sun Nov 30, 2008 14:18

"I challenge you once again and others to show how a veggie can get around deficiencies in the following areas which I reiterate are common among veggies. Their availability is adversely affected by the characteristics of a vegetarian diet."

I accept your challenge

Nutrients affected include:
These can be obtained from the following :-



B12 Mackerel, Salmon and vitamin B12 is made by bacterial fermentation such that it does not need to be obtained from animal products.


Iron Curry powder 29.6mg , Breakfast cereal 16.7mg ,Sunflower Seed 7.1mg, lambs liver 7.5mg, Pig's kidney 6.4mg & Beef 1.9mg all at per 100g


Zinc sesame seeds contain 26.4g protein, 12.6mg vitamin B3, 7.8mg iron, 131mg calcium and 10.3mg zinc.
Manganese :Wholemeal bread contains 4.3 mg per 100g



"Also take essential fatty acids such as EPA and dha – ‘essential’ for health. I challenge you to give me a veggie source which is equalling or provides a better source of these than cod liver oil which is effectively a medicine 
"

Flax Seed Oil as capsules will provide Omega 3,6 & 9


The best Baby milk is what the Mother produces!
Cows milk is for calves, just as Cats milk is for kittens.

I have been a veggie (not vegan) for over 35 years or more. I found that my health actually improved and I am not particularly thin either.

The secrets to good health:
1. Regular meals
2. Sleep well
3. Avoid stress.
4. Maintain a sense of humour
5. Exercise

by micah Sun Nov 30, 2008 15:34

thanks, that gave me a chuckle!

Well, I think the problem with the selective information you present is that in relation to the iron sources you mention you will find that these are synthetic and will actually deplete your body furter of this vital mineral. Meat you will find the best source of iron; the body more easily absorbs this iron - known as haem iron - than iron in fruit, grains & eggs, for example. Once again the best sources are meats. See: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/iron.asp

you say that ‘ B12 is made by bacterial fermentation such that it does not need to be obtained from animal products’.
Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain fermenting bacteria in the lower intestines. This may be true, but it is in a form unusable by the body. See:
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism...tml#2

in relation to zinc it is clear that the best sources still remain seafood such as Oysters, also beef, other meat sources . see: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/zinc.asp#h3

In relation to flax seed oil you misrepresent me. It is clear that only a very small percentage of the omega-3 in flax is converted to EPA and DHA which the best source remains cod liver oil.
See: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004....aspx

Also I don’t advocate pasteurised milk but raw milk which is perfectly healthy for humans. see http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/About_Raw_Milk.html e:

Also you don’t mention soy feed and its great harm to babies. See: http://www.healthcoalition.ca/soy-babies.html

by Ancient Veggie Sun Nov 30, 2008 20:11

Ha'h now that I have viewed your sources Micah I can see where you are coming from h'm. The US of A the country that introduced & whose FDA allowed Aspartame to be widely used.

The artificial sweetener that when in trials caused rats to develop Brain Tumours; of course for the sake of profit several attempts were made to cover up that information.

Aspartame used in soft drinks that are passed off as diet this and that. The chemical activates the user to actually eat more than they need.

The growing obesity seen in the world today, can be blamed entirely on Aspartame & American styled junk (fast) foods! By making people overweight, this will in due course feed more profits into the pharmaceutical companies. As their bodies start to malfunction under the strain. Then the Medical profession will prescribe drugs for the recurring symptoms of arthritis, circulation, heart disease and anal malfunction.

Yes do carry on eating your meat, though if you want to maintain good health make certain that it is organic, am off to chew a carrot.

by micah Sun Nov 30, 2008 20:55

well that is a completely absurd comment about aspartame which i am totally opposed to and which bares absolutely no relation to the very good points i made and which of course you are unable to argue against judging by that comment.

are these the tactics you guys resort to when u have lost the argument?

in fact i was looking at the source for one of your previous postings. you are quite selective and judging by your latest contribution you and the veg movement on this forum have become desperate and are now dragging the bottom of the barrel.

For example Ancient Veggie you took the reference about curry powder from http://www.questhealthlibrary.com/minerals/iron

But what else does it say on this web page?

“Animal sources of iron are much better absorbed than plant sources, because in animal tissue the iron is organically bound as haemoglobin. In plants, iron is present as the much more poorly absorbed inorganic structure.”

Secondly perhaps you should research the type of iron that goes into your veggie sources:

“Derived from iron ore, elemental iron powders are economical for producers, and they generally do not disturb the flavour or storage properties of the products to which they're added. But the traits that make them less reactive with foods may also decrease their nutritional bioavailability”
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may03/iron0503.htm

“A critical problem in some food fortification programs is the lack of bioavailability of iron compounds.”
See the Journal of nutrition ( peer reviewd!) http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/4/849S

In fact ‘iron’ fortification programmes in countries like India have been tried because of the recognition of serious mineral deficiencies caused by a diet largely consisting of grains.

“Haem iron(only exists in animal tissues) is absorbed around five times more efficiently than the inorganic iron from plant sources and is therefore better at preventing deficiency.”

See: http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Iron-transport...ments

I rest my case !

by wah Sun Nov 30, 2008 21:29

once more Micah

Apart from the health implications of eating or not eating animals' bodies, do you have any moral qualms? Are there any creatures you wouldn't eat? Dogs? Cats? Apes? Horses? Your family pets?

by Ancient Veggie Sun Nov 30, 2008 22:37

Micah: You dispute what I said about Aspartame, hardly surprising if you work for Monsanto, although perhaps you don't.

But please read this before you take another forkful of meat :-

MD DECLARES ASPARTAME DISEASE GLOBAL PLAGUE
Aspartame-like Neotame coming soon to a store near you

Mission Possible editor Betty Martini, who processes the world's most cutting edge information regarding the toxic artificial sweetener aspartame, reports that H.J. Roberts, M.D., has declared aspartame disease a global epidemic upon publishing the 1,023-page medical text, “Aspartame Disease: An Ignored Epidemic.” The declaration comes at a time when the government of New Zealand has just approved the manufacture and sale of aspartame clone neotame.

Aspartame is commonly used as a dietary sweetener in over-the-counter beverages such as Pedialyte and soft drinks. It has been proven to break down into formaldehyde and methanol, both of which are known neurotoxins, at ambient temperatures. Scientists believe that cumulative levels of aspartame are responsible for a list of over 200 ailments that range from headaches, nausea, motor dysfunction, irritability, fibromyalgia, Parkinson's disease, obesity and death.

“As we are faced with one of the largest plagues in world history, the Australia New Zealand Food Standards Council (ANZFA) approves the more potent aspartame clone, Neotame,” said Martini.

ANZFA spokeswoman Fiona Hodges ([email protected]) explained that, “This sweetener offers a viable alternative for people with the genetic disease phenylketonuria as it does not break down to phenylalaine.”

According to Martini, “The formula for Neotame [which is available at the Mission Possible website at: www.dorway.com] proves phenylalanine is one of the ingredients.”

In a discussion with Dr. Jeffrey Bada, a peptide chemist who has written on aspartame, he said that to produce neotame, they had simply scrambled the formula but it has the same deadly breakdown products as aspartame. “Monsanto has now sold the rights to Neotame to Childs but Monsanto Communications Director, Nancy Nevin wrote some years ago: 'Compositionally it [neotame] begins with aspartame, but a simple enhancement to the dipeptide base of aspartame uniquely and markedly changes its sweetness. It is 40 times sweeter than aspartame,'” Martini reported.

Dr. H. J. Roberts wrote to the Dockets Management Branch of the FDA on 3/3/98 saying: “The timing and self-serving corporate interests of this petition are suggested by the fact the patent on aspartame expired several years ago.” Dr. Roberts has reviewed studies for both aspartame and neotame. He found that those studies funded by Monsanto to “prove” the marketplace safety of those synthetic sweeteners were skewed and lacking scientific merit. Conversely, non-biased studies and field experience prove his theory that such products are linked to global epidemics of a variety of serious chronic illnesses.

Monsanto has a long history of being able to get FDA approval for demonstrably unsafe and/or toxic products. Bovine Growth Hormone and genetically engineered foods come to mind. It has been reported that the FDA recently obtained patent rights to terminator gene technology primarily developed by Monsanto.
Aspartame Disease: An Ignored Epidemic, can be found at www.sunsentpress.com or by calling (800) 814-9800.
From the September 2001 Idaho Observer:

More info on aspartame can be found at: www.dorway.com
The Aspartame Toxicity Center can be found at: www.holisticmed.com/
Aspartame Support Group is at: www.presidiotex.com/aspartame

Which is why I and others like me prefer to be Veggies, it may not be a perfect eating habit. At least it is less dangerous than risks taken by carnivores.

by Roger Yates Sun Nov 30, 2008 22:58

Micah. You describe yourself as “someone with a training in health science” – that wouldn’t be the sort of course in which students attend ‘relevant processing facilities’ and ‘laboratories’ would it?

More seriously, I am interested in this Price Institute and who funds it. I see its officers such as Sally Fallon Morell are funded to travel the world – by? The meat and dairy industries perhaps? Compare that to the case of John Robbins who literally gave up a fortune to investigate diet and health: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yResuAasCnA&feature=related

You seem to be saying that the US dietetic Association are totally wrong about vegan diets and you are totally right. As I understand it, John Robbins has carefully researched the issue of healthy diets and what you claim seems to fly in the face of the vast bulk of published data.

You say that my point about athletes is ‘interesting but flawed’ although you do not really say why. It remains the case that several successful professional athletes have followed vegan diets. You mention your own case, so perhaps I can mention mine. I have been vegan since 1979 and still play soccer about 3 times per week, generally against players a fair bit younger than myself and I am rarely the worst player, certainly not in terms of stamina. My case is not rare. In the 1980s in England a vegan team played a charity football game during the miners’ strike, dubbed ‘The Beanies v The Beefies’ by the press. The vegans won the game. You said by position was balanced – or attempted to be – yours appears more to be a scare tactic for some reason.

by micah Sun Nov 30, 2008 23:42

ancient veggie, are you OK? I mean seriously , are you OK? or is vegetarianism and B12 deficiency having a serious adverse effect on your nervous system and mental/emotional well being?

I do not work for Monsanto. In fact I despise them,but seriously this must be an attempt by you to divert indymedia readers from the fact that you and other veggies on this forum have been unable to address the points i made about vitamin and mineral deficiencies that affect veggies. i refer you to my previous posting . please address these!

"Monsanto has a long history of being able to get FDA approval for demonstrably unsafe and/or toxic products. Bovine Growth Hormone and genetically engineered foods come to mind. "

i agree. they are a disgrace and i as a health researher have written about pharmaceutical fraud so quit your absolute nonsense and address my points.

In fairness to you though you are the only one that has made any attempt to address specific points i have been making but the info you provided is flawed. i understand this may be painful to people like yourself but surely you would rather have the truth backed up by science rather than lies, half truths and misinformation put out by your movement and those who have a vested interest in promoting vegetarianism but who have not a genuine interest in promoting people's health.

by Ancient Veggie Mon Dec 01, 2008 07:00

Micah it would seem by your personal comments that I have you on the run, otherwise you would not be making cheap remarks.

I have already stated that B12 is obtainable from eating Mackerel & Salmon (I eat lots of different types of red fish.) you are failing to comprehend why is that ?

by ? Mon Dec 01, 2008 15:40

Ancient Veggie,

Can you tell me how you are a vegetarian if you eat fish?

by Captain Haddock Mon Dec 01, 2008 16:27

No, that would make you a Piscatarian. But many fisheaters call themselves vegetarians.

by RogerYates Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:30

For more information about the healthiness or otherwise of veganism, try listening to November 1st 2008 edition of this show: http://www.goveganradio.com/veg/1003/Listen_to_Past_Sho...s.htm

It features a vegan bodybuilding champion, KENNETH G WILLIAMS, who talks about the natural championship approach of his vs pharmaceutical or meat and dairy bodybuilding.

The host, Bob Linden, also lists many other vegan sportspeople which puts some of the comments above into perspective.

by shaun Thu Dec 04, 2008 18:52

an alternative point of view on vegetarianism from those who support a holistic and sustainable approach to livestock farming can be found at:
//www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism.html

people should not forget that meats provide the best and most easily absorbed B12, zinc and iron.

by RogerYates Fri Dec 05, 2008 00:06

Once more we see the Weston A. Price Foundation cited. Who funds this group? Until that question is answered (I have asked it before) I think we can regard it as dodgy and certainly when compared to the example of health expert John Robbins who gave up his family fortune to investigate diet and health.

by Catlady Fri Dec 05, 2008 02:10

Sorry I've been gone for a while and have missed a lot of the debate.

So I will simply say to Micah....

The UN and WHO recommend a veggie diet. People who eat meat eat rubbish (as my n=mother used to say). People who are vegan/vegetarian generally take pains to make sure they are eating wholesome food and usually eat home cooked.

Anecdotally, I personally have never been healthier. I am now vegan, used to be vegetarian, and prior to that yes, I am ashamed to say, I ate carrion......

Since become=ing vegan I have lost weight, have more energy, eat more fruit and veg and far far less processed foods.

None of my doctors have ever expressed any concern whatsoever with the fact that I am vegan, even during the one time I was ill in hospital for 2 days. Forgive me, but I trust my own doctors, and the medical team of specialists at the hospital more than I trust a random person on the internet quoting dodgy pseudo scientific articles.....

The origin of your sources is very questionable. Particularly when I know that my father, a biologist and zoologist, has studied nutrition in far greater depth than any modern "nutritioinst" ever has, and he worries not. He has also informed me that the 13 essential amino acids from flesh are easily available from soya protein, and has suggested that I could feed my obligate carnivore rescued python tofu rats. Not that Adam would eat them of course.....

by shaun Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:45

First of all Roger, in relation to the funding the Weston Price Institute receives you should know:

“The main sources of support for the Weston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. The Foundation receives no funding from any government agency or food-processing corporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting these industries. The Foundation promotes the production of food by independent farmers and artisans, and not by industry.”
http://www.westonaprice.org/funding.html

The Foundation is dedicated to restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education, research and activism. It supports a number of movements that contribute to this objective including accurate nutrition instruction, organic and biodynamic farming, pasture-feeding of livestock, community-supported farms, honest and informative labelling, prepared parenting and nurturing therapies. Specific goals include establishment of universal access to clean, certified raw milk and a ban on the use of soy formula for infants.
In relation to Catlady,u say that “People who eat meat eat rubbish”. This is totally false. Eating organic meats or grass fed beef or lamb are highly nutritious and provide the body with the best and most easily absorbed form of iron, also zinc, and b12. You actually dispute this is to say that the science is wrong.

In fact a perfectly logical explanation of why some people do well at least initially on a vegan or vegetarian diet can be found at
http://www.paulchek.com/Vegetarianism1.htm

here is a quote from this: "Typically, many doctors and holistic health practitioners that recommend vegan or vegetarian type diets also recommend organic or biodynamic produce. These foodstuffs are grown without toxic agents and generally have far greater nutritional value than commercial produce. Where people often make a mistake with the philosophy that vegetarianism cured their disease is in not realizing that:Frequently, this is the first time most such people have eaten high quality food. Sadly they had to look death in the eyes to start! Their diet was often previously limited in living produce and was excessive in processed foods, trans-fatty acids, synthetic additives, colorings, preservatives and processed grain products that disrupt blood sugar levels.
The commercial animal foods they ate up until the point of creating their disease were at least as toxic as they themselves were, thus creating sizable burden on their body. “

I am also surprised catlady that you advocate soy. High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women. Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease
See: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Also there is nothing wrong with my sources on the internet. The internet is a wonderful tool. All tthat I am saying is supported bythe science and I also think that many peple today are starting to question western medicine and its very close relationship with the pharmaceutical industry.

by RogerYates Sat Dec 06, 2008 17:06

Thanks for that Shaun. Let’s see what we have thus far. The Price institute appears to be part of a growing movement in North America made up of small “family farmers” and hunters (not sport hunters). As such, these people are completely opposed to factory-farmed meats as they are to veganism, advocating the Dr. Price diet and killing their own meat.

As for Price himself, he seems to have come to a different conclusion than John Robbins using similar data. It seems hard to get an objective view of Price since most of the reviews of his work are apparently written by his fans or people associated with the Weston A. Price Foundation. Even your link to Paul Chek links back to Price, so there seems to be a bit a circular reinforcing going on.

However, if Price’s claim that it is not possible to have a plant-based human society is true, then that seems to pose quite a challenge to vegans. What appears to be missing from a lot of this discourse is the issue of ethics. It is not the case that we simply must choose what is optimally ‘best’ for us (in that case we would continue to sanction human experimentation on nonconsenting subjects because we know for sure that this is the way to get the ‘best’ results to combat the ills of humanity). That and Drs. Quiet and Diet I guess.

When Paul Chek is confronted with an ethics question he seems to go to pieces, suggesting that one need not be vegetarian because ‘plants are sentient too’. Not only does he think that, he thinks they are equally as sentient as the nonhuman animals meat eaters dine on. So, credibility lost on that one, apart from the fact that he’s clearly setting himself up as some Eastern-influenced lifestyle and fitness guru whose wisdom can be purchased for a price. I do hope it turns out that you are not Alan Farrell (level II CHEK practitioner) doing a bit a sly advertising.

Going back to Dr. Price. His claims raise deep philosophical issues and invokes the memory of Vegan Society pioneer Donald Watson. Watson was told, as you are telling us, that veganism is not the best diet – and he was also told that he’d die on a vegan diet. However, as someone not wanting to violate rights, or cause cruelty, whatever was the prevailing language in the 1940s, he went ahead anyway. It may be, for example, that the ‘best’ sources of B12 are animal sources – but we are more interested in the most ethical sources. And, on a deep philosophical level, maybe there is a case to live morally even if that leads to extinction: who wants to life at the price of constantly violating others’ fundamental rights in the first place?

However, you may be keener on vegan suicide than I am. There may be more practical solutions if it turns out that humans necessarily ~have~ to eat animal produce in order to survive. Clearly the jury is still out on all of this – the problem is, all the sources you keep citing appear to be people with a financial incentive for saying what they are saying. Take, for example, your comments about soya. Asia - and its history - appears to create a huge problem for your daizu thesis. While some recommend moderation of use of soya: “If you do choose to use soya, then the only safe way is the way it's been used by Asians for thousands of years: fermented, in moderation, and as a condiment. And that should have been the initial message in the first place” - http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/articles/simple_soya_...h.htm - others from Asia point out daizu’s fundamental value as a foodstuff: http://books.google.ie/books?id=43puKgiAK2YC&pg=PA96&lp...esult

by Catlady Sun Dec 07, 2008 02:29

"Also there is nothing wrong with my sources on the internet." Yes there is. They are all from the same place. The same site. The same group with an obvious bias. Please provide similar evidence from a well established peer reviewed journal. Then I will read the evidence you provide and give it my serious consideration. Not that it will change my eating habits, as as Roger has pointed out, there is also the ethical element to consider.

"The internet is a wonderful tool." Indeed it can be. It is also true however that the internet is full of nonsense and one needs to employ a degree of intelligence in order to ascertain what is fact from fiction. Hence my request for peer reviewed sources of information from respected scientific journals. A request which I now repeat and defy you to provide.

"All tthat I am saying is supported bythe science "

THE science??????????? what on earth do you mean by THE science?????????????

by Shaun Sun Dec 07, 2008 14:16

Hi Roger,

Just to respond to the points you made.

Central of course to the Weston price philosophy as you understand is belief in the farm and not the factory.

Chek is someone who I am actually not very familiar with and you may be right about his setting himself up as some kind of guru figure but the same I guess could be said about others in the vegetarian /vegan movement.

In relation to the ethical question I think we should not forget that it should also be noted “mechanized vegetable farming involves massive killing of soil organisms, insects, rodents and birds”. http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html. In fact this link to this article suggests how vegetarianism may in itself be understood to be a denial of death. Living a farming life you are always remained of the tides of life and death in the natural world.

Also “Once we accept the premise that living takes life, we can begin doing vitally important work: ensuring that farm animals and wild animals have the opportunity to lead a good life and die a good death. We need to approach the body of a slaughtered animal more holistically, ecologically, consciously and spiritually”.
http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/bloodmoon.html

Actually, Roger I have never heard of Alan Farrell until now and I don’t have much time for Fine Gael or any other mainstream political party for that matter.

You say that “maybe there is a case to live morally even if that leads to extinction”. That reminds me of some theories that vegetarianism/veganism is actually being promoted by some sinister forces as a way to achieve population reduction because only some can actually do well on such a diet. I must say also that I can understand how the radicalism of vegetarianism/veganism appeals to people. I tried it myself –vegetarianism- and it just didn’t work. I felt run down a lot and would developed colds, which was unusual for me.

You are right that you should only eat fermented soy. This from what I understand is quite healthy but most soy on the market is not and does have serious health implications as the links made in earlier postings will show and which I don’t think you are denying.

One other point I would make is that I would, if my only choice on offer was say to eat factory farmed beef such as produced in the US which is feed a lot of GM feed and given beef promoting hormones, be veggie myself or at least seek out some quality seafood, but I really can’t understand why veggies would deny themselves a great source of zinc and other nutrients such that a few oysters or mussles , etc would provide. I really do think that is taking it too far.

Anyhow, on a final note, I do genuinely wish you good health.

Catlady,

I am not really going to respond in any detail to your posting because unlike Roger you it would appear from this thread have adopted an abusive tone throughout . Although this may be indicative of your insecurity and disturbance at hearing how your dietary choice may not be so healthy after all it can’t be justified because people should be treated with a little respect. Anyhow if you check the references at the end of this article for which I provide a link you will see that many references are from what are termed ‘peer review’ journals.
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism....html

Also I can assure that the whole peer reviewd process is not all it is cracked up to be especially within the field of medicine. Often here too certain vested interests are involved. I am thinking of the influence of the pharmaceutical industry here so I think you should be a little more questioning here. Try also not to be so hostile to people who disagree with you. It’s not good for your health and aint good for your karma.

by Catlady Tue Dec 09, 2008 00:18

Shaun,

I apologise if you have misinterpreted my sarcasm as abuse. It was not intended as such,

I am involved with the peer review process and am quite well aware of its workings. I am also aware however that I can write a "scientific" document tonight, publish it on my website and have fools read it and take it as fact. I will look up the sources you mention and consult with trusted colleagues as to their reliability. I trust that you have no argument with me doing so before responding to the same?

Your allusions to my so-called "insecurities" about my dietary choice are, I assure you, unfounded. I am more than satisfied with my health, which, according to my 2 doctors, has greatly improved since my becoming vegan. This however, was a mere pleasasnt side effect of an ethical decision on my behalf. Were I to live a little shorter, I would gladly accept that fact. Luckily for me this seems not to be the case (according to my doctors and the scientist colleagues I have consulted with) and I will actually live longer, and therefore be able to promote ethical living well into my retirement.

I do hope that the tone of this post has not offended you excessively and I extend my sincere apologies if the latter is indeed the case.

by Shaun Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:55

well Catlady, i think i can appreciate the slightly more subtle tone of sarcasm in that posting . I though am absolutely convinced that you will develop health problems and of course you do mention your meeting with doctors and their reassuring you that your health is good which leads me to suspect that all may not be so rosy in the garden after all. Where I live I know people in their 80's , 90's who have eaten a high cholesterol diet rich in animal products all their lives and have never visited a doctor.

You tell me that you weren't being abusive and then you refer to getting 'fools' to read your document. Veganism hasn't made you a very spiritual person, has it?

"whoever calls his brother a fool will be in danger of going to the fire of hell. " Matthew 5:22

by where's the beef? Tue Dec 09, 2008 14:44

Good to see the high standard of all that grass fed Irish meat, eh micah? I'm sure the weston price institute will have something out soon telling us how meat is the best source of PCBs though.

by Shaun Tue Dec 09, 2008 16:15

Try not be too alarmist about this.The RTE report states that:

“Only 0.2% of total annual production was found to be affected.”

Dioxins are not just found in meat and they may exist at levels that present no risk to human health. See section under

“Dioxins: It's Not Just about the Meat” :
www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

In fact in recent times new tests have shown double the dioxins in vegetables :

http://lists.essential.org/dioxin-l/msg00689.html

Also, the assertion that dioxins accumulate specifically in animal products is simplistic and inaccurate and in fact a diet rich in pastured animal products provides protective nutrients, especially vitamin A, that directly oppose the toxic actions of dioxins while a diet rich in most plant fats provides compounds that enhance the actions of dioxin. Vegans especially are without these protective factors.The healthy pre-modern groups that Weston Price studied who thrived on diets rich in animal products consumed some level of dioxins in their food. What has changed though in the modern era is the disappearance of protective factors abundant in traditional diets : http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

Finally, in relation to pork I only eat it if it’s organic as I have for some time been concerned at the high levels of GM feed given to pigs among other factors.