“We're planning an amBush for the World's number one terrorist"

by VB Wed May 26, 2004 18:39

Will the DGN guarantee that journalists who attend this conference will not be attacked. Will photographers be allowed to take pictures and will the organisations guarantee that photograghers will not be attacked by the Black Bloc at any of the events organised by Ambush and Grass Roots.

by Sense Wed May 26, 2004 18:55

There will be plenty of footage from jounalists who do not behave in the ignorant way that was displayed on may day.

by VB Wed May 26, 2004 18:59

Will the media be safe from attack by the Black Bloc at events organised by this coalition. Will these groups ask the Black Bloc to stay away if it refuses to agree to refrain from attacking the media.

by Chekov Wed May 26, 2004 19:02

There has never been the slighest chance of any reporter being in danger at a DGN press conference - it's a PRESS CONFERENCE you moron.

Your question about 'guaranteeing safety' at all grassroots events marks you out to be as stupid as the mainstream media presenters who always ask this question. Even if we were to give each journo 10 bodyguards and wrap them in foam and get all the protestors to swear an oath of allegiance to Rupert Murdoch, we couldn't _guarantee_ anything. It's lie asking Indymedia to guarantee that morons won't use the site to spread sectarian bile. Jesus we wish they wouldn't, but the sad truth is that there are some morons out there who do.

by VB Wed May 26, 2004 19:06

You have made it clear that the media will not be safe at your events. For an Anarchist you certainly show a lot of contempt for media workers. Your refusal to distance yourself from lumpen Black Bloc actions has been noted.

by Chekov Wed May 26, 2004 19:46

You don't understand at all. Neither I nor anybody else can _guarantee_ the safety of somebody who walks down the road, no matter what measures are put in place. How can anybody _guarantee_ that there won't be a cop-provocateur dressed in black who jumps out of the crowd and attacks a cameraman? It's just not possible to guarantee anything. What we can do is make it clear that such behaviour is not welcome on the protests and do our best to get people to respect it. I have every confidence that it will be respected by protestors. However, I can't guarantee that there won't be a single provocateur or idiot there who will do something stupid, just like I can't guarantee that you won't meet a mugger on your way home from college tonight.

The truth of the matter is that you are basing your entire nastly little sectarian point scoring mission on the basis of a wildly skewed picture of what happened on Mayday. There was no organised attack on media people. The organisers made it clear that such behaviour was not welcome on the march and this was respected by 99.9% of people there. The tiny number of reported attacks on media people was dwarfed by the number of attacks on media people by the cops and even by the number of attacks on protestors by media people (I witnessed two). There are more assaults on media people in your average paparazzi's day of following celebrities around than there was on the entire weekend of protests. So, why not run a campaign for Posh and Becks to guarantee the safety of cameramen who follow them around? (OK, I'll answer that, because your're not interested in anything other than sectarian point-scoring)

by Buzzard Wed May 26, 2004 20:36

What sort of nonsense is this? “We're planning an amBush for the World's number one terrorist". Security will be as tight as a ducks arse. Lets cut the grandstanding right away please. I couldnt bear reading for a whole month about what this or that anarchist is gonna do when Bush comes if all it does is put people off going to shannon. Ive heard of propaganda by deed but that usually includes a deed. There isnt a snowballs chance of anythin other than a demo at shannon and thats good enough for me. My granny (really) says she want to go to shannon so please dont put her off. See you at shannon (really).

by iosaf - hasta la Victoria Sempre. toujours toujours tous les jours ça ira ça ira la liberté Wed May 26, 2004 22:06

June 6 2004 we shall mark the 60º anniversary of the Allied landing in Normandie.
I thought I'd leave you some links.
so you can brush up your french, learn a little bit of history, reflect on one of those days which truly were watersheds in our flow of historical culture.

And therein you will find loads of inspiration for your conversations, interplay of witicisms and if you do it right put the wind up "you know them- our cousins and favourite bad guys" @ the moment.

First a *caveat* I read in an email a qoute from Rummy recently, complaining about how the presence of the digitial camera crew is changing the conduct of post War care.
It's true as well. But I have to say, that reading today's Amnesty International Report, it is striking that the really bad places don't have the digital camera crew.

So. Thankyou Americans and Canadians and all the rest for doing the delta day, and so on. A lot of people died that day. Much more than we get upset about now. And an awful lot had to die before that day happened.

Hopefully the bravery, courage and spirit that loads of people will tap into in marking the memory of that day, and the days before and after, will somehow "help us all" move quickly to happier places where a digital camera is available and we all have computers and telephone lines and only certain countries keep nuclear aircraft carriers and they go on having familiar sort of trustworthy names that we associated with "Total bastard really but icon good guy i suppose conceding the point and putting aside the millenia of exploitation and you know what I mean"

What is important I suppose is that none of these people had beards.

http://www.normandiememoire.com/accueil.php

There will be loads of people in normandie.
Mr Bush will go to the elysee before hand to be (permit us creative license) scorned upon by Mr Chirac.
There will be no eyelids fluttering and not a single kissie exchanged. But thier tiff can be, perhaps like @ this stage, had better
be spun -
"I will sell my wheel/my only spinning wheel/2 buy my love mo stóir/..."
be told -
as Good Guys - the Nasty Cop & the Nice Cop.

Let me take you through it:-
Amnesty International Report + "google"

I think loads of people in the great world out there where the cyber solidarity borders need to live without fear of either Nasty Cop or Nice Cop. But in some places there has been an overload of "Nasty Cop".
We mostly talk about Nasty Cop USA.
or Nasty Cop Israel. Let's move to "no Cop" by letting "nice Cop" do the next stint.

Let June 6 move to June 30th.
más é do thoil é.
Bertie I have given you a task.

When the whole bunch go to the beaches, out there moored broadside will be the Aircraft Carriers General Charles De Gaulle
and General Washington.

They are both capable of taking out your country. Just like USS La Salle could do your city. You've been talking about it. Except niether CDG or GW would have to flick an eyelid.

weird eh?
Sprungfield.


http://www.normandiememoire.com/accueil.php

by Mary Wed May 26, 2004 23:25

I agree with the comment above about grandstanding. Shanon will be swamped with police and our objective should be to get as many people there as possible. The badly written press release above with its jibberish about 'ambushing' GWB is only going to put people off. Ambush him? How? Where?

I presume you people are supporting the Anti-War Ireland demo? That's where I intend to be anyway and for me its important that I can go there and play a part without the day being hijacked by a handful of idiots. This is meant to be a peaceful protest, so stop the grandstanding now! Please. If you're going to do something, do it away from the demo and don't be giving the police an excuse to act heavy-handed and break it up.

And don't talk big in public, just go away and do whatever you want to do (somewhere else).

by Badman Thu May 27, 2004 03:19

For chrissakes folks, the amBush thing is clearly a pun. We're all going to be protesting against this mass murderer. I don't think puns are too 'confrontational' a tactic! Bush is here for an election ad, we're here to am-bush that. Whether you're praying in a candle-lit vigil or taking hammers to planes, you're part of it. Stop pretending that the protestors are the problem. So far in this war we've got a tally of 2 nose cones and one fence against maybe 15,000 dead people. Remember which side you're on. Don't give in to the logic of fear.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 11:57

There is no sectarianism on my part I am merely trying to find out if media workers will be safe at your events. So far the answer seems to be no. You write of media attacks on protesters, surely you mean instances of the press Defending themselves from attack. Are you seriously suggesting that media workers carried out unprovoked attacks on marchers?

Examples of unprovoked attacks on photograhers by the Black Bloc have been reported on Indymedia and you accepted that they had taken place. I also accept that the State was responsible for attacks on journalists but that does not excuse you of responsibility. The media should never be in fear of attack from the left.

But this fear exists and it is well founded. The Black Bloc in their commemts on Indymedia have made it clear that thet support all of the attacks on media workers which were carried out by their members. They also made it clear that such attacks would take place at future events. Now your coalition has a choice here - it can tell the Black Bloc that threy are not welcome at your events Or you can tell the press that some of your supporters regard the media as legitimate targets.

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 12:31

The black bloc is not an organisation but a tactic (wearing black and masking up). What you are doing is akin to suggesting that everyone who carries a placard on a demo is somehow responsible nor only for the actions of everyone else carrying a placard on that demo but for everyone who has ever carried a placard in the past.

Arising from this the black bloc can't be part of any coalition. There are a number of DGN statements that list constiuent groups, none of these include the black bloc.

In the light of these two facts your attempt to make DGN responsible for a non-existent organisation is sectarian trolling, pure and simple. All the more so when the information I outline above is already very well known from globalisation protests and is what you 'discover' if you google 'what is the black bloc'

Your actual agenda appears to be to undermine any hope of sympatheic press coverage in advance of the Bush protests.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 12:49

You cannot absolve yourself of responsibility for what occurs on the demonstrations you organise. As you well know the Black Bloc is an organisation. There is a central cadre which arranges their events. You are not so stupid to believe that this "Tactic" comes together through some mystical process now are you?

Black Bloc members have defended their attacks on media workers here and made it clear that they will carry out such attacks in the future. You can take action to prevent this. The event organisers can request that the Black Bloc Tactic/Organistion stay away from your events if they are not prepared to leave journalists alone.

The journalists who will attend tomorrows press conference are not dumb. You can be sure that they will question you about the attacks which took place and what you intend to do in the future to prevent such attacks. You will have to provide answers. You through your unwillingness to break with the Black Bloc are damaging the possibility of sympathetic press coverage.

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 12:56

There is no black bloc organisation except perhaps in the minds of interpol (but maybe that is where you are posting from?). Your certainly doing the work of the cops but maybe your an unpaid fool rather than anything more sinister.

Maybe a black bloc will turn up at the next IAWM press conference? Can you gurantee journalists who go to it this won't happen. While your at it can you gurantee we are going to have a sunny weekend?

Idiot.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 13:07

These are serious issues. I hope that your childish response is not representative of the coalition organising the AmBush. Its ironic that you should mention Interpol given that you went hysterical when it was suggested that the Black Bloc were infiltrated by the police.

by David Thu May 27, 2004 13:17

Cause if you are, you have to say so.


Whoever you are you're talking rubbish. The Black Bloc is not an organisation. It's not even cohesive enough to suggest that people masked up share the same ideology. People mask up for different reasons and they co-operate in a certain way in certain situations because most activists understand how the tactic is supposed to work.

There are ABSOLUTELY NO central cadres in a black bloc, quite the opposite, it's made up of small afinity groups of between 5 and 10 people or individuals who turned up by themselves or with others who poreferred to pursue different tactics.

by blah blah Thu May 27, 2004 13:17

really?

I've USED the black bloc TACTIC and i never came across any oragnisation or central cadre. Does a central commitee organise placard-carrying at protests? Or do individual people decide to bring them? (SWP events aside)

Why do you think an organisation exists? Do you think it takes that much organising to have people wearing black hoods and masks?

amBush is obviously a pun you idiots, and yes amBush are supporting the "AWI demo". It's not their demo. amBush were working on it before they had their first meeting in Limerick. They still haven't had their conference at which they formally launch AWI. How can a non-existent organisation own a protest? How can any organisation own a protest?

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 13:19

Again your trolling. Trolling does not deserve a serious response. And the intent of your trolling is obvious enough even if we don't know as yet what your motivation is.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 14:01

Because the actions you are carrying out advance the agenda of those who wish to disperse and demonise genuine progressive forces. You are fooling no one with your assertions. The Black Bloc has a central cadre of organisers.

As for Joe I find his attitude bewildering. I am raising the issue of safety for media workers. Joe knows that the Black Bloc have threatened to carry out further attacks on journalists. Yet all he can do is insult me.

Try insulting the journalists tomorrow and see where that gets you.

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 14:13

Seeing as I'm not a DGN spokesperson I won't be there tomorrow

Seeing as there is no connection between the DGN and the organisation that exists in your mind there won't be any questions to answer

Your role here is clearly to
1. Sow disunity
2. Undermine the Bush protests
3. Encourage hostile journalism

People can draw their own conclusions as to what your motivations are

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 14:24

My role here is to encourage the building of a sane peaceful opposition to Bush. One that gets as much favourable media coverage as possible. That is not going to happen if the media are under constant threat of attack from the Black Bloc.

A lot of the media will give bad coverage anyway but how do you expect to get any positive coverage at all if a photographer never knows when a member of the Black Bloc is going to spray paint or shove his camera into his face. The media will be wary of all of your events. This wariness will extend to other groups opposing Bush and will affect the coverage they get.

Now the coalition organising your events can appoint stewards or affinity groups or ask for volunteers to protect journalists from attack from the Black Bloc. Why dont you at least do that? You know such attacks are going to take place. "Members" of the Black Bloc have threatened as much on Indymedia.

My sole motivation is a desire to see large demos against the Bush visit.

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 14:51

OK VB maybe you are actually someone who doesn't understand what they are posting about rather than someone posting lies. I doubt this, you use Leninist language like 'cadre' which implies to me at least someone actively involved in such politics. But seeing as others reading this won't know what is going on lets repeat the points once more

1. The 'black bloc' is not part of AmBush.
Seeing as your scare mongering revolves around them being part of it that should be enough to shut you up. That it is not suggest another motive.

2. There is no organisation called the black bloc, its exists as a common tactic (like placard waving) that takes place on some demos. Incidentally at Ashtown those in black and masked up included not only anarchists but a couple of members of one of the trot parties.

3. Any attacks on journalists on the DGN march were against the guidelines and a couple of people did intervene at the time to point this out. However from reading the accounts it seems there was no 'assault' just a bit of pushing and shoving with the journalists doing their share of it as well. Exaggerating this into a general war on journalists is counter productive IF your interest is preventing future occurances.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 14:56

The Black Bloc will turn up at your demos. Whats at issue is whether or not you take steps to protect jornalists from attack. Trying to trivialise the ataacks which took place is not going to fool journalists tomorrow. BBers have admitted here that they shived cameras into faces and sprayed paint into faces. You know that photographers were also kicked by the BB.

by David Thu May 27, 2004 14:59

We're all ears.

by GGer Thu May 27, 2004 15:04

On a IAWM march last year, members of the SWP were seen leaving the march to go vandalise the PD's office (not long after RBB, criticised others involved in direct action tactics), they also burned a US flag outside the Dail, much to the disgust of one of steering committee members (she has since resigned).
On a anti-war march in Hillsborough last year the 'free-state' SWP ignored the wishes of the stewards and went to confront the police lines.
Don't be so hard on DGN - these things happen. But sure you know this, all you are doing is trolling.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 15:35

But what I am criticising here is thuggery. Attacks on media workers. Are you comparing this to the burning of a flag? The attacks are not a one off, they happened at previous events and the Black Bloc have threatened to attack media workers at future events.

What do I suggest? Read my comments on this thread. The Black Bloc are an elitist formation which substitute themself for mass action. They are subject to no democratic accountability. Through their stupid actions this tiny minority put everyone else at risk. Its interesting that a WSM member of long standing says that the Black Bloc are "Authoritarians not Anarchists".

by Badman Thu May 27, 2004 15:39

The WSM member said no such thing about the black block. He said it about the "tiny handful of arrogant people" who aggressively tried to stop themselves from being photographed.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 15:48

This is what he said -

"The organisers, Dublin Grassroots Network - which includes many anarchists, including WSM members - had a policy of talking to the media and seeking to get a little bit of good coverage alongside all the rubbish that would be written anyway."

The BB have no such policy of talking to the media and even attacked a journalist in the Indymedia centre.

"A tiny handful of arrogant people tried to stop themselves being photographed and were quite aggressive about it. If they didn't want to be photographed they could have gone into the middle of the crowd, or stayed away from the front of the march, or just stayed at home."

Now he is talking about the Black Bloc here. The Black Bloc have defended all attacks by their members on the media.

"Instead they ignored the wishes of the organisers (which had been decided at a series of publicly advertised open meetings) and tried to impose their own views about how to relate to the media"

So whats going on. Do you accept that the Black Bloc ignored the wishs of the organisers or are you saying that the statement by Alan MacSiomoin of the WSM is incorrect?

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 16:05

I see you are still trying to cause splits and rows VB. Go away!

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 16:20

If you have something intelligent to impart then lets hear it otherwise stay away. Your childish insults are becoming tiresome. Now what I refer to here was written by the WSM member. How is that splitting? Unless you are suggesting that the WSM member was causing the split.

by Joe Thu May 27, 2004 16:42

VB you have simply put words in Alans mouth. Where he wrote 'tiny minority' you have substituted Black bloc. A simple bit of provocation in other words.

By my reckoning there were about 80 on the bloc and at least that number in similar garb. If that number had attacked journalists we'd have had a massacre rather than a couple of scratches.

Your quite good at what you do which is why I suspect your more than the normal troll. You take a little kernal of truth and exaggerate it, then you surround it with semi-plausable lies before vomiting out your latest pile of dung. It's all designed to poison the water and air and stop people working together. Now whose agenda does that suit?

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 16:47

What did I tell you about the insults? Now let Alan come on here and explain what he meant.

by GGer Thu May 27, 2004 17:02

At the IAWM march the people carrying out the actions were the SWP - the leaders of the IAWM. They were doing actions at the PD office, outside the Dail and at Hillsborough that their organisation criticised others for doing. I have no problems with these actions but do have a problem when they condemn others for similar actions.
Those in the black bloc (which included anarchists, trots and spoilt brats) were discouraged by the DGN from proceeding with their poorly thought-out confrontations.
Your gripes seems to be that the DGN did not rush to blanket condemnations unlike the SWP who condemn people for doing actions which is ok when their own members are doing it. The fact that both DGN and the WSM have come and stated clearly that they are against the actions of idiots is lost on your myopic trolling.
You are a shit stirring troll, who if not working for the state, must be a member of the SWP. But sure what's the difference, when you read the Garda Review piece, you will see that the State love you guys.
'yeah sure boss, we'll protest wherever you decide'.
Some protesters!!

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 17:12

I am not a member of the SWP. But are you defending attacks on the media? You seem to equate the media with the PDs. This is confused thinking to say the least.

by GGer Thu May 27, 2004 17:46

How, when and where did I defend I attacks on the media, troll?

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 17:55

I have consistently raised the Black Bloc physical attacks on the media. In response you have raised actions at the PD offices. I do not see the two as being comparable. Far from trying to dissuade the BB from any actions the DGN washed their hands of it. Joe on many occasions said that the BB actions have nothing to do with the DGN.

It really is amazing the way you people operate. You get hysterical if anyone suggests that the Black Bloc are infiltrated by the cops but you casually throw around such accusations at anyone who disagrees with you or even questions your stance.

This bluster will nort get you far with the media. How will you deal with awkward questions tomorrow, will you accuse the pesky reporters of being police agents? Or will you just get the BB to spray paint in their faces?

by GGer Thu May 27, 2004 18:01

"I have consistently raised the Black Bloc physical attacks on the media. In response you have raised actions at the PD offices."

My point for those, who find things hard to grasp, is that idiots can not be controlled be they anarchists or trots.
DGN and WSM are not behind the door in criticising those fools who attacked the media. You are trying to cause a diversion by pointing to something that is not there. Hence, you are trolling.

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 18:06

I am dealing with realities. The BB have used the cover of GG organised events in the past to attack media workers. They have made it clear on Indymedia threads that they intend to do so again in the future. This makes it the responsibility of the people who are organising the AmBush.

Now what steps are you going to take to prevent the BB from attacking media workers at the events that Your Coalition organises?

by GGer Thu May 27, 2004 18:12

The Trade Union and the Labour Party use the cover of the IAWM to attack all workers, what are you going to do about it?

by VB Thu May 27, 2004 18:21

This is about AmBush and the media. The attacks on media workers is relevant to that. Just answer what your coalition is going to do to protect media workers from BB attack.

If you want to discuss other things then why not start a new thread about it? Although I cant see how ICTU and the LP have used the IAWM to attack all workers. ICTU and the LP certainly havent physically attacked any workers. The Black Bloc have.

by rewoprewolf Thu May 27, 2004 21:06

its increasingly apparent from their first appearance that the irish version of black block are idiots bent on any publicity they can get good bad or indifferent. I mean masking up to blocade top oil really takes the biscuit. I'd say the police rubbed their hands with glee when they first saw them. I don't think they will get away anymore with agression directed towards other protesters/activists or camera crews again - nobody (bar perhaps a few armchair generals) likes an utterly unaccountable cadre with no organic link to the generality of people who take part in RTS Anti-War Shannon stuff running around in their midst playing at being more revolutionary than thou. And contrary to various having your cake and eating it contributions above - crowds (socialist or anarchist or mixture in orientation) can and do police themselves in a non-hierarchical way within agreed 'rules of engagement' and can and do take responsibility for the consequences of initiating an action. If the Ibb (group not tactic - have yet to see an open call for a BB at an Irish Protest) want a scrap they should move the hell away (sideways as opposed to ahead) from the crew to a good distance and fight with the police there if they so wish. Anyone who thinks all this is a good idea can go with them and take the crunchy with the smooth.

by NVDA Fri May 28, 2004 12:25

He makes a good point why dont the Black Block organise their own demos or move sideways away from the main demo? Let them fight the cops if they think they are tough enough.

Or better still let them stay away completely from the events being organised here. Why dont they advertise their own event at a different time from the peaceful one. then they fight the cops or the press or with each other if they want. Just stay away from those of us who are into politics rather than aggro. And NVDA is politics. But its hard to carry out such peaceful actions if there is a bunch of masked morons showing off and lokking for fights with the cops, the press and with other activists who disagree with them.

Black Bloc stay away from our actions. Organise your own demos.

by Badman Fri May 28, 2004 12:32

Serious trolling there mate. You really want to start a fight don't you.

by NVDA Fri May 28, 2004 12:35

I am not the wolf and I am not VB who I reckon is a trot out to damage GG. I am giving my views about the Black Bloc and I reckon they are shared by a lot of others.

by David Fri May 28, 2004 12:37

they're all using the same language and sharing the same stupid assumption that the Black bloc is an organisation with a "central Cadre" who can organise their own protests

by NVDA Fri May 28, 2004 12:45

Where did I use the word cadre? I think you lot are not welcome on demos and I know a lot of others think the same. You really are paranoid. I object to you lot because you answer to no one but your own arrogance.

Go away and organise your own demos. Then you will see how many people agree with you.

by David Fri May 28, 2004 12:50

The Black Bloc doesn't exist as an organisation so it couldn't possibly organise it's own demo.

by VB Fri May 28, 2004 12:55

You naughty things you are abusing the wrong people! So David how do the Bloc come together if there is no centre? Who issues the call for a Blac Bloc in the first place? Does it make you feel like a big man when you attack a photographer, why do you hate them, is it because they have a job unlike you dossers? Or is it because you are acting on behalf of the State, out to destroy any real opposition?

by NVDA Fri May 28, 2004 12:57

You were able to get 100 together at the DGN Mayday demo. That didnt happen of its own accord. Go away and hold your own march.

by David Fri May 28, 2004 12:59

Come back when you know what you're talking about

by David Fri May 28, 2004 13:01

http://www.infoshop.org/blackbloc_faq.html

Is the black bloc an organization?

The black bloc is a TACTIC, not a group or organization. Just like there cannot by the "Civil Disobedience Group," neither can the black bloc be an organization. Some people are under the mistaken impression that one can join the "black bloc organization." There is no standing black bloc organization between protests. There is the anarchist movement which always exists (and has been around for over a century). You can think of the black bloc as just a temporary collection of anarchists that represent a contingent in a protest march. The black bloc is a tactic, similar to civil disobedience.

by Tom Crean Fri May 28, 2004 14:58

As the Black Bloc can’t call their own demo (“The black bloc is a TACTIC, not a group or organization”), I’ll call the demo for them:

Calling the Black Bloc
Attack the Cops, Destroy Shannon Airport
Sunday 27th June (some time in the afternoon whenever you can get there)
Mask up, bring weapons and don’t worry about civilians – it’ll be just you and the cops.

by dunk Fri May 28, 2004 15:03

he is coming

so are we

bushwalk FOR fun sustainable peaceful existence

end all violence
turn front line of demos into creative celebrational eduacional spaces

bushwalk FOR fun sustainable peaceful existence

by Protestor 23 Fri May 28, 2004 15:47

There are TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE who dress in black, cover their faces and throw sticks, stones, kicks and punches at anti-corporate demonstrations:

1. THE UNDERCOVER POLICE. These are called Agent Provocateurs. Purposes:
(i) Give the state an excuse to batter people off the streets while maintaining the illusion of a democracy in the minds of the people sitting at home watching TV "Oh the state had to hit back ... look at those crazy black bloc types". There is loads of video evidence of this from Gothenburg to Genoa and again on Mayday above at the Navan Road. The Black Bloc ran around Genoa smashing stuff, then went and had fags with the cops behind riot police lines as they battered NVDA (Non-Violent Direct Action) protestors - THIS IS ON FILM see Belarosconis (sic) Mousetrap and others.

(ii) Give the state an excuse to arrest the activists and raid the convergence centres and meetings where the peaceful NVDA (i.e. NO VIOLENCE AGAINST THE PERSON) demonstrations are being organised.

2. People in their late teens and early twenties (and embarrassingly are on some occasions much older than this) ON A FASHION AND DATING PARADE who have not read a lot of politics or history books and do not understand that if they …

… DO NOT COME OUT IN BLACK THROWING KICKS AND BOTTLES THEN THE STATE WILL DRESS IN BLACK AND BE THE BLACK BLOC FOR YOU.

So I think we need some common sense here. The Grassroots people say 'Oh we must respect the plurality and diversity of tactics'. Bo*lox. Unequivocally the Grassroots need to say ‘No to violence against the person on our demos. If you come on this demo with the intention of violence against the person you are yet another enemy of freedom’. In a non-violent fashion I propose that we pick the little pricks up off their feet and carry them to the back of the demo every time one of them undercover/apolitical idiots tries to throw a bottle or a kick. I want to protest in Shannon against Bush. But I don't want some feckin’ undercover copper or apolitical gobshite to be the excuse given by the state and believed by the masses of people to be the reason I get battered on the head and dragged to a cell and spend 12 months in and out of court.

I have no problem going, risking arrest by being there, locking arms, taking a battering from the state, getting arrested, spending 12 months in and out of courts. But if one of them undercover/apolitical gobshites comes near me in order to use me as a shield to throw his bottles and kicks well ... ... well I would like to punch him in the head but I won't because I go on the demonstration with the intention of no violence to the person. That's why I want to work with others to remove these undercovers/apolitical gobshites from the front of our demos.

Remember why Seattle worked:
It worked because people trained in NVDA, went to the door of the WTO conference centre, sat down, linked arms and shut the building down. Where were the Black Bloc? Doing the coppers job! How?: By drawing people away from the actual site of the action and objective of shutting down the WTO meeting. How?: By giving the corporate media the footage that the police wanted them to have. How?: By making sure that the vast majority of people would be afraid to come on a demo with these undercovers/apolitical gobshites around.

THE BLACK BLOC IS A SPENT TACTIC.

NON-VIOLENT RESISTANCE TO THE CORPORATE CAPITALIST SYSTEM.

- Protestor 23.

Ps: I am willing to accept I am wrong on these points. I have read some very politically astute analysis by Black Bloc-ers from the US of A as to why corporate property damage using mass demonstrations as a cover is a legitimate act of resistance and is in fact an act of solidarity despite what some may say. But what I most want is that at Grassroots, amBush, Anti-War Ireland meetings etc that we bring these issues out into the open and actually have a debate about:

(i) What will the front of the demo look like?/ What do we want it to look like?

(ii) If we do find we have ‘angry young men’ be they naïve yahoos looking for an opportunity to smack a Garda, politically well read determined types, or undercover coppers, about to throw missiles or kicks, what do we want to do about it?

Pps: As far as I have read, the actually ideals of the Black Bloc tactic are in fact against violence against the person, any person. Is this a true reflection of the tactic?

by Ray Fri May 28, 2004 15:53

"The Grassroots people say 'Oh we must respect the plurality and diversity of tactics'. Bo*lox. Unequivocally the Grassroots need to say ‘No to violence against the person on our demos"

They did both.
The DGN guidelines very clearly said that their demos were to be non-violent. In other words, "No to violence against the person on our demos".
(And if I have to say that one more time I'm going to punch something myself)

They also said that they respected the plurality and diversity of tactics, and people could do other things if they liked AS LONG AS THEY WERE NOT ON THE DGN DEMO AT THE TIME.

This is not so very complicated, really.

by pat c Fri May 28, 2004 16:53

This is an obvious provocation. No real call for such violent action would be issued. It should be obvious as well that only a minority of those identified with the black block acted inappropriately by attacking photographers. As other DGN members pointed out this went against the DGN guidelines. The Black Block as a whole tried to push their way through cop lines. Pushing is not violence. The missiles were thrown by drunks and idiots.

by natas evol i / rewoprewolf Fri May 28, 2004 17:09

well I'm not and I'm not VB - who is a troll - and I'm not NVDA who I don't think is a troll.

Can you just answer one question and point me in the direction of any openly published call for a black bloc prior to any protest where they have appeared in Ireland? I'm pretty sure there wasn't one ever.

Or do I have to rip off my mask first to prove I'm not a troll?

by Joe Fri May 28, 2004 17:25

I think its safe enough to assume that the

Call for a Padded Bloc on May 1st - help protect yourself and others on Mayday this year!
bluekingfisher, Tuesday, Apr 13 2004, 9:57pm
at
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64309

is the equivalent of a black bloc call. Ongoing court cases obviously rule out speculation on why the actual apparation was somewhat different then that contained in the call.

People are being quite hysterical in some of the comments. There have been black blocs on at least half a dozen Dublin and Shannon demos here in the last year and at least a couple of demos that were mostly black bloc in apperance. There hasn't been violence at any of these (except that which came from the cops). If ya wanna be pacifists you should be focusing your fire on the actual instigators of violence on Irish demos, the Gardai rather than people with a liking for masks and black clothes. Credit where credit is due is a much better foundation for solidarity than ill informed rants based on prejudice and fear.

by fuck off trolls Fri May 28, 2004 18:09

What makes you think that people who may use the black bloc TACTIC aren't involved in organising the demo? Idiot.

I've been involved in this for some time, and i may wear a mask on the day. What right do you have to tell me i can't take part?

by NVDA Fri May 28, 2004 18:17

Well Joe says that the Black Bloc is not involved in organising the Demo. Were you involved in the last DGN demo if so why did you disregard the code of behaviour agreed democratically at the organising meetings. You didnt put forward the Black Bloc tactic there.

What I object to is that you are subject to no democratic accountability. You substitute your actions for mass action. Go away and organise your own demos. Stop putting other peoples safety at risk.

by David Fri May 28, 2004 18:27

And prohibit anybody from dressing in black.
Maybe you could have a meeting with the imaginary Central black bloc committee and tell them not to come...

People go on GG marches precisely because they are more empowering than the point to point pointlessness of SWP trot parades.

The only people who were a danger to the protestors safety were wearing official Garda Uniforms
(apart from a few drunken idiots throwing rocks who Nobody supported)

by NVDA Fri May 28, 2004 18:34

People go on GG events because they are democratically organised. Your Black Bloc has contempt for that organisational democracy. Nowhere in the guidelines was there provision for your Bloc. Your Bloc made up maybe 3% of the march but it arrogantly strutted around intimidating other marchers and the press.

If you think you have support then put forward your Black Bloc tactic at the organising meetings. Also out forward your tactic of attacking the press. You wont do that will you?

Go away and organise your own Black Bloc protests. Stop putting the rest of us at risk. We dont want you.

by Chekov Fri May 28, 2004 19:01

It is very curious that suddenly, 4 weeks after the event, 3 people, who all claim to be coming from different points of view and are all anonymous, all suddenly become frantically concerned with a couple of cameramen being pushed, weeks after this minor incident was debated fully on indymedia.

Curious my arse. VB, NVDA, repro-fucking-wolf, you aren't fooling anybody. When you say that "we don't want you", who is the we? cops? CIA? It must be somebody like that, coz your invidious trolling sure doesn't speak for anybody who is trying to organise against bush.

by The Marshalls of Rock - That crazy Bakunin cat is gonna Off the Pigs.COM Sat May 29, 2004 04:04 deathtobourgeoisculture at hotPetunia dot com

thanks to L COx's website!)

by Chekov Sun May 30, 2004 21:23

All of the above arguments about the black block are based on the erroneous assumption that there is an organisation called the 'black bloc' . There isn't. What there is, is a situation where, on most of the big marches in Ireland in the last 2 years, there has been a section of the crowd who dress in black and wear face masks.

A small number of people who were dressed like this on the Mayday march appear to have acted in stupid ways that I and the vast majority of people on the demo would disagree with. On the basis of this, we are called to ban the 'black block' from demonstrations.

This seems to me to be senseless for a number of reasons.

1) A larger (but still proportionately tiny) number of people who misbehaved on the march were not dressed in black or masked. For example, the drunks who threw cans from behind the front lines, the two individuals identified as 'inciters' on the newswire here. The problem of stupid behaviour on marches is not confined to those dressed in black.

2) The 'black block' is not an organisation. It is the group of people who dress in black and wear masks on a demonstration. It is a different set of people on each demo. 'Banning' or 'standing up to' the block would amount to a ban on wearing masks and dressing in black on demonstrations. As far as I'm concerned, people can wear what they want on demonstrations. I also think that people can conceal their identities from cameras and cops on political demonstrations if they want to.

If I did think that there was a specific organisation systematically ignoring the guidelines of demonstations and thereby putitng other people in danger, I'd be very concerned about it - but I'm not.

The Mayday demonstrations were very unusual in Ireland in that there was an unprecedented level of media hysteria and there was a significant number of foreign activists present, who come from countries where the relationship with the mainstream media is extremely hostile on both sides. Such attacks, even in the small numbers that happened on Mayday, have never been a feature of Irish demonstrations in the past and I wouldn't expect them to be in the future. I don't know any activists, including those who participate in black blocks, who support attacks on journalists.

Therefore, I think that there is no crisis. The Grassroots tradition of issuing guidelines and asking people to respect them and persuade other to respect them, has generally worked well in the past. If we do find ourselves in the situation where a minority systematically and arbitrarily ignore the guidelines and endanger others, then we would have a problem. I don't think that problem exists or is likely to exist in the near future.