Photograph of Undercover Garda

by Karl Sun May 02, 2004 18:19

Nice work i think i may have a picture of on i will tyr get my film developed as soon as possible.

by David Sun May 02, 2004 18:31

that's definite proof (if we can get a positive ID on this man) that the cops weren't interested in keeping the peace.

by GG Sun May 02, 2004 19:03

Was he the man photographed in the celtic jersey in the Sunday World. I was supprised to see this man in the papers as I had been with the protest all day and hadn't seen him at all- a celtic jersey would have definately stood out.

I spent 3 and a half hours in Clover Hill court house last night , friends of mine had been arrested, and I hope that everyone there gets proper legal representation for wednesday. To me, it seemed that the judge had one agenda only and that was to make a name for himself with the people in power.

Last night was an absolute farce, a pure show of state power. Our democratic right to protest (peacefully!) was being attacked. I hope that the mainstream media portray this and don't just paint us as a load of thugs hell bent on causing trouble.

by random input Sun May 02, 2004 19:21

the guy in the celtic shirt had glasses. Although in the picture where he is being led away (in the May Day Press Pictures thread) you can't properly see his face.

by Red Sun May 02, 2004 19:54

If this guy was identified as an agent then why was he not confronted and beaten up. It's not too hard to get a group of activists to take him into our lines and give him a lesson he won't be forgetting for a long time. This is how scabs and state agents need to be treated. Anyone have a name or address?

by Mick Dunphy Sun May 02, 2004 19:57

Just to clarify, I believe that Seamus meant to say Navan Road rather than the Naas Road.

I also saw this guy start trouble. It doesn't surprise me that the gardai have decided to use these 'agent provocateur' tactics. The Italian police (Carabineiri) dressed up as Anarchists and smashed windows and enouraged violence in Genoa. We must stay one step ahead of them and eject these Garda troublemakers and information gatherers from our protests in future.

Anyway, well done Seamus! Hopefully the mainstream media won't ignore this vital information.

by anon Sun May 02, 2004 19:59

yeh rite. beat up the gards to give them an excuse to teargas us? dont try and start trouble here you pig

by Karl Sun May 02, 2004 19:59

Red why did you make such a comment?
Why would violence be the anwser?
Please tell me the logic behind your statement.
To be honest if anything you sound like a garda plant when you say things like that.

by You're NOT the Media Sun May 02, 2004 19:59

Threats of violence against people? And you're complaining against misrepresentation? This is how the IRA carries on it's so-called war and dishes out so-called justice as a front for their own criminality and drug-dealing. You motherfuckers are just sore you got your arses kicked good and hard - and you deserved it. That picture could be of anyone. No proof, no evidence. More Horseshit.

by Seamus Mackey Sun May 02, 2004 20:11

"After this he was reported to have tried unsuccessfully to start fights inside the crowd with groups of protesters as Riot Gardaí with drawn batons before quickly being surrounded and pulled away."

This -should- read:

"After this he was reported to have tried unsuccessfully to start fights inside the crowd with groups of protesters as Riot Gardaí with drawn batons *were closing in* before he was quickly surrounded *by protesters* and pulled away."

Just to clarify. Sorry for the mistake.

by red Sun May 02, 2004 20:18

I was on the protests yesterday. I think that Scabs (people that break strikes) and State Agents (people that do the job of the state by infiltrating left groups) should be sorted out. How you choose to do this is up for debate. If the opportunity was there then I would have no scruples about beating a Scab or state agent and putting him in hospital.

Look what happened to scabs and state agents in the Miners' Strike. Working Class people do not tolerate these scum.

bviously you have to choose you battles. It would not have been good tactics to beat up that bloke last night as there were so many Coppers around. But it should be noted that we should not rule out these type of tactics to stop scabs and state agents.

by concerned Sun May 02, 2004 20:21

how do you know he's a guard?

by anon Sun May 02, 2004 20:23

confronting these people and taking their photographs puts garda resources under pressure. these gards are trained in undercover tactics. each time we identify them they must be taken off undercover duty. their cover is blown. they must then train more undercovers and have a surplus of useless cops. this is a good economic tactic.

advocating violence against these infiltrators will only result in one thing more violence. people have the right to protest without being spied on and without being hurt. violence will harm all participants in the march when the gards are trying to avenge their fellow garda.

by Cabhog Sun May 02, 2004 20:24

a picture of a man, with no context in that picture.

this all you have.

1) where is the evidence he is a guard?

2) where is the evidence that this photograph was taken yesterday

3) where is the evidence that this man did what you accuse him of doing.

I would call on the editors to remove this story, as it has no supporting evidence other than a few wild claims.

by Seamus Mackey Sun May 02, 2004 20:29

We know he is a Garda because he was:

1) Seen talking to Gardaí during the march
2) Had a complete change of clothes between O'Connell Street and the Navan Road. (Possibly changed in the Garda Station after being outed)
3) Attempted to drive the crowd back into the direction of the charging Riot Gardaí.
4) Confronted about being a Garda, denied it once then proceeded to try and beat his accusers in full view of uniformed Gardaí on multiple occasions.

This does not sound like someone on a peaceful march. If he is proved beyond doubt that he is not a paid Garda, I will obviously retract my comment. Until then I will consider this man to be an undercover Garda and advise people to watch out for him on future marches.

by Cabhog Sun May 02, 2004 20:33

"If he is proved beyond doubt that he is not a paid Garda"

Interesting interpretation of the idea of innocent until proven guilty of something.

According to you peculiar and warped world, everyone is a guard until they prove otherwise.

Offer real proof, other than unsubstantiated rubbish.

by concerned Sun May 02, 2004 20:33

you guys have no proof that hes a guard why shoule we take your word for it?

oh look...heres two more undercover cops this picture was taken blah blah blah...get a grip

by Karl Sun May 02, 2004 20:33

First i want to just say to Red he obiviously does not repersent all working class people and this is not how people like "scabs" or undercover agents should be dealt with.

Hopefully evidence about this guard will surface.
I am sure we have some pictures from yesterday with this man in them and eye witness accounts as for evidence i hope that some will come forward and even if little evidence comes forward his cover is blown.

by concerned Sun May 02, 2004 20:37

) Confronted about being a Garda, denied it once then proceeded to try and beat his accusers in full view of uniformed Gardaí on multiple occasions.

oh he denied being a guard while he was in the middle of a protest ...oh well then! you should have said so...now it all makes sense!

way to go columbo

by anon Sun May 02, 2004 20:40

one q, concerned
how much did the ruc charge you to use their watercanon? strange how equipment paid by the british government to oppress the irish is used in our own country for the same purpose. its good to see the lads in headquarters have seen fit that you paid trolls have to work on a sunday evening.

by Cabhog Sun May 02, 2004 20:41

Sean,

provide the following if you want people to believe you;

1) Evidence that the man in the photograph is a member of the Gardai

2) evidence that he was at the march (other than your personal claims)

3) evidence that he changed clothes (can't see whats wrong with that)

4) evidence that he had conversations with the police

this should be easy to do considering you had a camera, and were able to get the photo above (which amazingly is against a dark background suggesting it was taken well after 10pm)

oh, and evidence is slightly more than I saw him (pictures, video, etc, etc

by David Sun May 02, 2004 20:43

This guy acted like a cop.

there were loads of witnesses, probably not enough evidence to convict in a court of law (unless you're a protestor being strung up for "breach of the peace" on the eye witness of one extremely biased cop.

The way this guy was behaving would make him unwelcome on any peaceful demonstration even if he wasn't a paid agent. People should watch out for him. (and if you see him in uniform take his number :-P)

by concerned Sun May 02, 2004 20:45

youve got me all wrong there chief

failed irish in the leaving... im not on the job...just amazed how a bunch of people can fall for this kind of tripe while at the same time accuse mainstream media of being biased

i just dont like being told to take things at face value....a picture of a bloke who looks like a member of an english stag party doesnt tell me anything

by Sean Sun May 02, 2004 20:46

1)Background is darkened in order to omit faces and details of people around.
2)I didn't have the camera, the photo was emailed to me. I was also there at the time and witnessed it. I collated reports from different people at the end of the night to get a better idea of what happened.
3)I'm sure more photos and video will surface.

by Cabhog Sun May 02, 2004 20:47

When was this photo taken?What time? An where

It is peculiar that this photgraph would suggest almost complete darkness, which is interesting, because the chronology would suggest that he was caught out early enough that evening and secondly, there are few places in town without streetlights, where the demos took place

looks to me like Indymedia are engaging in the black arts

by Sean Sun May 02, 2004 20:54

Exact time and place is not neccessary unless you are trying to gather evidence of what Garda footage might be taken at the exact time and place to try and identify the photographer. Suffice to say it was while the protest had moved back towards town after the confrontation.

by Cabhog Sun May 02, 2004 20:56

Exact time an place are not necessary?

Surely, your digital camera should have recorded the time?

Sean, it sounds like you made this up!

by revol68 Sun May 02, 2004 20:59

okay whilst everyone is talking shit about injured peelers would it be possible to have some information on the arrested? surely this is much more important than most of the guff being posted up? we have 2 dozen comrades scooped yet no details... why!

by Karl Sun May 02, 2004 21:02

Well actually Cabhog he has already stated he did not take the picture.Please read more carefully in the future and dont accuse people so easily you know without all that evidence and all.

by mindyerown Sun May 02, 2004 21:02

instead of blacking out the background entirely, why not fuzz the faces of the surrounding crowd? interesting as this topic is, it cannot be taken seriously without more proof.

by Sean Sun May 02, 2004 21:27

You know as well as I do that 'fuzzing' a picture can easily be undone.
If any other media sources want to get a copy of this picture as well as statements, please email me:
seanmackey2002 AT yahoo DOT com
Correspondance with the Gardaí will not be entertained!

by revol68 Sun May 02, 2004 21:34

if cabhog is not a troll in the pay of the gard's s/he is surely a very sad and lonely person... suely u can find something better to do with ur life than this.. if u are a gard congrats u have possibly the sweetiest job ever!!! if i was u i'd be as happy as a pig in shite...

by Aran - Sinn Fein Sun May 02, 2004 21:37 praxis808 at yahoo dot com

Can anyone confirm was he Special Branch (Garda "Intelligence" big inverted commas!) or what?

by johan Sun May 02, 2004 21:38

i witnessed the fraca on the walk home involving this man. people accused him and he became aggressive. mob mentality nearly entered the fray but a couple of people calmed everyone down. There was no doubt in my mind that this man was not a gaurd but most likely a sinn feiner. but that's just hearsay. here's a picture of two riot police in a chipper - that's funny

hungry hungry hippos

by Warren Sun May 02, 2004 21:38

There was several people there spoiling for a fight from the start of the march. I saw several people attack a camera man as he took pictures of the march on O Connell street. Someone broke it up, only for the protester to attack him again 2 minutes later.

As for this undercover garda, even if it is true, he was one person trying to get people to stand their ground whilst 20 or so continued to fight with the Gardai.

The Gardai obviously wanted the reaction they got and I'm in no doubt that the trouble was caused by the Gardai. They waited a whole 2 minutes of minor pushing and shoving before breaking off to bring the riot police in. They brought the water canon into action for some unknown reason, maybe to justify their borrowing of it.

It was a great march and good turnout, spoiled by Gardai's complete over reaction and some idiots looking for a fight. (not necessarily saying idiots were genuine protesters)

by anon Sun May 02, 2004 21:41

i dont see why a shinner would change his clothes then talk to police before trying to get everyone to stop running from them. nice try but no cigar, troll.

by John Sun May 02, 2004 21:47

What absolute claptrap! So, he was identified as an 'infiltrator' by these demonstrators in the afternoon, but still appeared in the middle of the same demonstrators later in the evening when they had become drunk and violent., even though his 'cover' had allready been blown? He must be the bravest man in the world if that's the case. It would be like Paisley turning up at a Sinn Fein rally hoping he'd go unrecognised. And tried to beat up the demonstrators? Really, one man in the middle of that crowd and he's beating them up. Are we talking about Mike Tyson here? And absolutely no photographs to back up the other claims about his activities have appeared here yet, even though there were scores of demonstrators with cameras, and even though its now 3 and a 1/2 hours since this piece of black propaganda was first posted. And how come he doesn't apear in any of the hundred and one photos from the front line that have been posted here. Has he the ability to make himself invisible as well?

by John Sun May 02, 2004 21:53

And just to add. Karl, what's taking you so long to get your film developed. Its now 3 and a 1/2 hpurs. Don't they have 1 hour processing in Dublin yet?

by concerned Sun May 02, 2004 21:53

that so many people are willing to accept a photo and a few lines of text as fact is mind boggling...

the best you can do if someone asks a valid question is accuse them of being a "state agent"...come on.

by a person Sun May 02, 2004 21:57

You can bet that he was not the only undercover garda on the march.
I watched part of the RTS march on Friday and noticed four men who I had a bad feeling about. They were on foot, and did not look like they belonged at that event, even though they had a kind of gypsy/hippie appearance, including ear-rings. One was older than the other three and seemed to be directing them. He was small, about fifty and had a moustache. These people raised the hair on the back of my neck, there was definitely something suspicious about them. Did anyone else notice them?

Anyway, re the issue of undercover cops and agent provocateurs; I would love to hear what Pat Kenny has to say. I wonder if anyone has explained things to him yet.

by glasgow gal Sun May 02, 2004 22:00

This report is now flooded with trolls which is a GREAT sign that the reporter WAS RIGHT.
If this really was an obvious mistake, no one would give a sh*t.
These people/trolls who are trying to DETRACT from the story and DISTRACT the readers are doing so because they KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF PEOPLE FIND THIS OUT.
If this guy is somebody someone knows WE WILL FIND OUT.
My advice to all you people genuinely concerned as to whether or not this man is undercover is to WAIT AND SEE.
If you know this man SAY NOW and prove his innocence. Otherwise SHUT UP.

by John Sun May 02, 2004 22:07

Well, person, what exactly was it you found suspicious about these 4 men? Perhaps it was that they smelled as if they'd had a bath in the past month. That could indeed make them unique in the crowd yesterday, but it doesn't mean they were police officers.

by concerned Mon May 03, 2004 01:04

whats funny is that easier for some people to blame some kind of "apparatus" than to really question....

all this talk of trolls...really...its childish

ive news for you, there is no conspiracy

by PC Plod - AGS Mon May 03, 2004 01:37

He's a shinner from Malahide. Drinks in Duffys. And he'll probably have great fun and games getting his good name back in the High Court if he sees what he's been accused of.

by witness Mon May 03, 2004 01:40

a group of us asked him what group he belonged to and he didn't reply sinn fein. get him to log on here with a recent photograph and to tell us what affinity group he said he belongs to. otherwise you can go back to your station with the rest of the pigs.

by PC Plod - AGS Mon May 03, 2004 01:54

I'm already at my station, thanks! Nice and warm it is too. You're real smart to guess my occupation. I wonder did the handle give it away?
Anyhoo.... from what I recall of this long, paranoid and anally obsessive thread, I'm the only poster to post anything other than unverifiable horseshit. Do with it as you will.
Move along now like nice little anarchists!
:-)

by PHILIP - none Mon May 03, 2004 02:10

Maybe he was and maybe not. I was on the march, the point I would make is did the pigs need undercover cops to try and start trouble? There seemed plenty of fools in hood and masks prepared to do it for them.
And please dont tell me they wanted a peaceful protest. They did not.
Yes they where a minority, yes most of us where prepared to march peacefully, yes the cops over reacted and wanted to have a go and use there new toys.
But what the fuck do you people expect?
Did you think they would let us march to Farmleigh?Did you think that a few hundred masked wombles, black block and other tourists where going to defeat the entire state machine.
Get real!!
The real debate should be are these tactics working, or do we really think they can work.? Is the fact of dressing up and having a go at cops the whole point of the exercise?

Is this how we stop racism, war, imperialism.?
Is this how we convince others our cause is just and that we have a workable alternative to the free market.?

There where hundreds of youngters at Ashtown, neither anarchists, socialists, wombles, black block or any thing.
But they where there for many different reasons.That should be a cause of celebration;they turned up despite media hysteria to mark a protest against capitalism in some form, (even if they didnt think of it as such)
I dont think that those of us who have been around the movement for a few years served them well with our actions that night.
Please discuss!!

by Ocean Mon May 03, 2004 02:34

Ok people, a little quiet polease(!).

I saw the above photo being taken. It was dark, after ten o clock, coming back down the Navan Road. The suspected plant was on the right hand side of the road and the IMCer used a flash which could easily have dramatically seperated the foreground of the picture (the suspected undercover cop) from the background of the picture (context) because of the limited range of the flash. There were streetlights there but they were kind of orangy and though human eyes can see well enough under street lights it constitute practical darkness for a lot of cameras.

I also saw what happened just before the photo was taken. the suspected plant was on the way back down the Navan Road when he attacked a masked protestor who i talked to immediately afterwarrds. To physically attack a masked protestor is suspicious. If the suspect plant was attacking cops or corpo media bloodhounds I'd be much slower to suspect him of being an undercover policeman as such actions are occasionally effected by genuine activists. I reasonably suspect that he was either an undercover policeman or a right plonker of a protestor.

obviously anyone can look like a protestor but only some people can look like cops. This man was tall, clean shaven, close cropped hair and in his early thirties, walking beside a second man of similar description with dark hair.

This is not proof, but proof is not likely to be forthcoming. Could whoever is mouthing off about correct judicial process and the burden of proof notice that truth can exist without judicial process and the burden of proof is predicated on the assumption that there is an ongoing investigation by an independent body (that's supposed to be the cops) that will gather evidence for the case to be tried later. There is no possibility of proving conclusively that this man is a cop but this doesn't mean that we must suspend our critical faculties. If we were only to treat what we could personally prove as true then we would not believe anything or ever act.

For example, I do not have proof that six million odd jews were murdered during the holocaust. Even if I set out to acquire proof of this i would find the task exceedingly difficult. Nevertheless i whole heartedly believe that six million odd jews were murdered during the holocaust. I also can't personally prove reports of torture in the third world from amnesty international. I also can't personally prove that Charles Haughey is the thieving cunt i know him to be. My point being that demanding proof is a cul de sac, neither here nor there, we must act because these things are really happening but in order to act we must have faith... we must try to reason our way to reality.

The possibility of our suspected cop merely being a right plonker of a protestor is unlikely. There is only a relatively small circle of authori-commi hacktivists in this country and this man is not one of them. Even authori-commi hacktivists usually don't physically attack masked protestors (who are some of the finest people I've ever met) since the level of arrogance required is profound. Authori-commi hacktivists usually just jeer mask-ys and then collapse behind a veil of scorn to hide their lack of justification for doing so.

It's unusual for other protestors to physically attack mask-ys since the problem most other activists have with them is that they discredit the movement by making it seem mysterious and violent and attacking them to make your point obviously involves the generation of internal contradictions in that point of view.

I also saw the earlier event where a masked protestor threatened and shoved a corporate video journalist who was shoving his camera in their faces for some nice juicy footage of what could then be labelled "anarchist lunatics intent on violence". This happened on the traffic island opposite the ambassador. I don't fully support the actions of this protestor but i can sympathise with their frustration with the media with the week that was in it and i've no doubt in my mind that they were genuine activists.

I would not encourage people to take on the suggestion that protestors should beat suspected plants. There is always a slight possibility that the suspect is not in fact a cop and even if they were that doesn't mean they deserve a beating. Instead i propose that you make your suspicions known, loudly and persistently while following the person around.

In America they've turned this into a game, it's called "Spot The Fed". Spray pig or narc on the back of suspect plants. Alternatively follow them around with a sign saying something like "This man is an undercover cop" with an arrow pointing towards them while explaining to the rest of the crowd that they should simply keep their distance and be wary of this man. You can also explain to the suspect that they should treat your allegation as a joke if they are not in fact a plant. You can agree to desist in your accusations if they can find a group of protestors to vouch for their legitimacy. Simply by making suspicions known we defeat the undercoverness of the suspect.

ANY PROTESTOR FROM IRELAND SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND A KNOWN PROTESTOR TO VOUCH FOR THEIR LEGITIMACY.

by anar-kate Mon May 03, 2004 02:46

Yeh! Spot the Fed! That's a great idea!
But I'd go for the sign rather than spraypainting it on their jackets! It's possible older people could join our cause and it would be a damn shame if you guys suspected then spraypainted on em!
For real, Ireland is a small place and the activist community is relatively small too. Identifying this guy if he isn't a cop shouldn't be a problem!
See you for Bush, pigs!

by hungry hungry hippos Mon May 03, 2004 03:01

come on post the pic again

I want to see the hungry hungry hippos!!!

The cops around town over the weekend were so fat I think that any garda injuries we due to over excersise, strain, cardiac arrest etc

by Spud - m Mon May 03, 2004 03:14 m m

I saw that guy too, if he wasn't garda he certainly was an assholew. Firstly i saw him scuffle with somone but couldn't see clearly what happened. A couple of minutes later he pushed his way past me and started shouting that we were 'fuckin knobheads' and that we should' stand our ground', i took offence to this as did many people. Being called a fuckin knobhead after what had alreayd happened cause alot people to tell him to shut up, then he started shotuing 'who said that' and looking for a fight, until about eight people gathered around him and he was pushed onto the path. if he wasn't gardai he certainly was an idiot.

by brian k. - just me. Mon May 03, 2004 04:11

Taken outside AIB in IFSC.
Man turned and watched the crowd as protestor waved black flag at AIB, then couldn't be seen after.

by bd Mon May 03, 2004 08:41

I think one has to be carefull publishing accusations that some one is an undercover cop, with very solid proof such as them detaining people for arrest.

There are lots of idiots who will talk to the pigs. Talking to pigs should be condemned but it is not proof.

The thing is to stear clear of the behaviour, pig or not.

by Cabhog Mon May 03, 2004 11:09

All there you have is a picture, with no context, no sign that it was taken at the march, or even in Dublin.

Furthermore, there has been no back up evidence that this man was at the earlier demonstration, or that he was rumbled at that.

Could the editors whould a bit of responsibility and delete this rubbish?

No evidence, no story, just libel and lies

by Donnacha Mon May 03, 2004 13:14

You've a strange idea of the libel laws if you think calling someone an undercover Garda is libelous :-)

D.

by Kevin Mon May 03, 2004 13:17

Due process? Proof?
Sure who needs that?

Aren't we the little revolutionaries who, like, know everything?

Anyone with a bit of cop-on will know that those in power who are guilty of all kinds of crap will hide behind lack of evidence and due process. Sure when Dublin Castle isn't hosting EU bigwigs, that's its full time occupation.

But deciding off your own bat that someone MUST be guilty of something because of a few circumstantial observations (and a feeling that your political cause puts you above the law) is a recipie for totalitarianism and oppression. You may have read Marx, but have you read Orwell or Solzhenitsyn?

And don't you know anything about Shinners? Yes, they hate 'the system' too but many off their grass roots supporters wouldn't have much time for Saturday's protestors, like a drink or three, and have been known to wear Celtic jerseys.

by Cabhog Mon May 03, 2004 13:19

No, but an undercover cop acting as an agent provacturer, and assaulting people is libel.

It is libel when a person is accused of something untrue, which would cause their reputation serious damage.

Where is the evidence this is true?

Other than a photograph, of which we have no evidence that it was taken on saturday, or that the man was at the march.

this is a lie, and no reputable media service would carry it.

by david Mon May 03, 2004 13:38

the irish examiner? the sunday independent? publications that have consistantly lied about these protests and the people involved.

There are many witnesses, I include myself as one, who saw this person acting in a highly suspicious and erratic manner and for our own protecton it was a good idea to publicise this man so that he can be identified at future demonstrations (including the RTS today)

by hang 'em Mon May 03, 2004 14:28

People calling for restraint against Garda infiltrators are probably Gardai themselves.

Hang the fuckers! or at least find pout where he lives and brick his house and burn his car. We NEED to send out the right message to the cops.

by Kevin Mon May 03, 2004 14:34

So because the corporate media tells lies and has low standards, that makes it ok to do exactly the same thing?!?

By all means, use this board to help protect against violent nutters at future marches. But having a gut feeling about something is hardly proof.

And by facilitating this criminal libel, Indymedia Ireland is vicariously liable under the Defamation Act 1961. A crappy piece of law on balance, but I wouldn't want some eejit putting my photo up accusing me of x, y and z because he and his mates THINK it's true.

by hang 'em Mon May 03, 2004 14:38

Kevin stop calling for restraint, he is a cop, someone please post his address and then pay a visit to his house

by Protest/or Mon May 03, 2004 15:57

Well a big thank you to everybody...

the Government
the bloc
the Garda
the EU
the Irish media
DNG
SWP
SF
SP
Bertie
Supt. Farrelly and Pat Kenny
the PSNI (for the loan of the water cannons)
Oglaigh na hEireann
....
and all the rest...together you persuaded us to stay at home.

Collectively you silenced this household's objection to the kind of EU we're having foisted upon us by corporate interests and self-interested politicians and bureaucrats.

None of you unequivocally protected our right to partake in peaceful protest and none of the protestors I have heard on air have had the balls to condemn the idiocy at the Ashtown Gate.

And as for the protest 'movement', just listen to yourselves - get it right for the Bush visit, or blow the protest. Or just maybe you should consider staying at home yourselves.

by g Mon May 03, 2004 16:00

Obviously not. Because the ones who started the fight was the Gards, Save that talk for the cafe with your pig colleagues.

by iosaf - never been rewarded enough for anything I did, and can I publish it? - NO. Mon May 03, 2004 16:34

Well now, our little social movements are so well known, and open sourced and appear to be well liked in the intellectual / artistic / green / human rights scenes, that it seems quite shocking all this violence ¿no?

And witness the "fall-out".

Such dangerous recrimination and resentment, stored up in such a small country the year ahead of an election.

And neither favourable nor unfavourable coverage in non English Speaking newspapers.

And the failure of Cyprus.

And my little babies, hurt, abused, scared, bullied, charged, wounded, arrested and lumped together with agent provacateurs, known extremists of your "rightwing variety", and lots I say lots of digital to go through.

Why didn't you put out the soldiers?
Is everything not so rosy in your garden?

I've a few books to publish.
I'll be offering you a knock down price copy, at the signing. And the collapse of your career will be one of the sequels.
Meanwhile, apologies are in order to my little babies, (sorry Chekhov and co, Pat C etc., who are well same age bit older) for the total incompetence of your national security policy.

Are you watching the exits?
How in God's name can you lot be trusted with Bush's visit? If you can't look after my little babies, then in no way can you identify a suicide bomber before he/she does their program.

Shame Shame Shame
on you all.
"noble future my arse".

by Deirdre Clancy - personal capacity Mon May 03, 2004 19:06

I have been waiting for a day or so to see if this item was left up, before putting up a comment. I am really surprised that it's been left on the newswire. The "evidence" that this person is an undercover guard appears to me to be based on mere hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

Perhaps it is true that he was an asshole who tried to cause trouble, but I would expect the same standards on this newswire as I would anywhere else before such a serious allegation is made, which is nothing less than absolute proof. In the absence of this, I have to say I find this item tasteless and difficult to justify. I would be happy enough to believe there were plenty of undercover guards on the scene, but to provide a photo with the attached claim with such flimsy evidence just seems amazing to me.

Activists consistently complain about the corporate media's sensationalism and paranoia. How can we be expected to be taken seriously when those from our own ranks don't follow the standards we demand from others?

by Watchful Mon May 03, 2004 19:14

While I may not agree with this experimentation to see who is undercover and who is not, it is better to err on the side of caution.
If it is unproved that his is indeed undercover, it has still been proved that this man is a threat to other protesters and should be watched out for.
Just cross your fingers and hope its not you he attacks at the next protest.

by Cabhog Mon May 03, 2004 20:37

How do you unprove something?

that would suggest that some proof has been provided already.

all we have in this case is a bad photo providing no context, and some claims about him changing clothes and talking to guards.

that is not proof.

by Candoo Tue May 04, 2004 16:57

Editor- could you not have changed or advised poster to word the accusations differently to "Alleged Agent Provocateur" or "allegedly an undercover Garda" ? This is how Corporate Media get around libel laws. I for one would still like this person to be positively identified either for the State Servant or Muppet that he is. With all the cameras that were present there should also be some more incriminating photos available.

by Legal eagle Tue May 04, 2004 17:23

I acknowlege the removal of the picture of this person as an admission by the editor of this website that it was very sloppy and lazy journalism to allow the picture to remain on the site for two days.
The man is not a garda. Anymore information, I feel no compulsion to add.

by Joe Tue May 04, 2004 17:41

He was pulling a face in the original picture but he certainly looked like the undercover cop on the Navan road that along with one other tried to get us to stop returning to town and confront the advancing riot cops. My only doubt is that the photo (I saw it yesterday before it was removed) may have been of someone else who just happened to look quite like that guy.

I was at all the events. The Saturday morning one only had around 100 at it so the 8 secret policemen disguised as demonstrators stuck out like sore thumbs. Two of these 8, both on bicycles, were the only people on the whole demo masked up. One was very obvious because you could see the outline of his walkie talkie through the bottom of his ruck sack (duh!). The other was obvious because he maintained formation with this guy on the other side of the crowd.

People talked to all the undercovers on Saturday including the head guy who held quite a long discussion with one DGN activist on pre-hype. Their presence was raised at the media scrum in front of the barriers to Dublin castle at around 12.00.

The Navan road guy was present throughout the weekend but changed his outfit quite often. Every time he was challenged he vanished for a while before being spotted in a different section of the crowd in a new outfit.

He was in Connolly station with another two cops disguised as demonstrators when we left for the border camp on Saturday morning. All three had identical small black earpieces in their right ears, I got a good look because I came up the escalator behind them. As we pulled out of the station the 3 of them walked in a line backwards along the platform counting how many of us there were.

Anyway the Guards told some of the papers that they would have up to 1,200 plain clothes on duty including new graduates of Templemore disguised as demonstrators. There is no dougbt that some of these were wearing masks. DGN warned in advance of the protests that some of these might act as provocauteurs which in this and perhaps some of the other cases seems to be what happened.

by Chewie Mon May 10, 2004 17:57

http://www.sluggerotoole.com/home/archives/003814.asp

by oldbluebear Mon May 24, 2004 18:27

hi everyone, well done publishing pics of the top spookie pigs in ireland. keep up the good work, keep the pics flowing in, and can we have names please addresses and other biographical info. Perhaps all that info is either the pheonex Park or templemore computers. Any 11 year olds out there going to volenteer the answers.(on the basis the best crackers ar about 11 years old) best regards, OBB.

by 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Mon May 24, 2004 18:43

We removed the pictures from the site because they do not have sufficent substantiation. We require a decent amount of evidence before allowing serious allegations against individuals to remain on the newswire.

If you want to look at unsubstantiated pictures of undercover police, somebody has posted them to a US based site: http://www.cryptome.org/

Note that we have received no evidence to suggest that the allegations are false. The anonymous comment above claiming that the gentleman is a SF member from Malahide was repeated by the Sunday Times and that story was swallowed whole by Slugger O'Toole

Interestingly, the author of the Times piece, Ms Sue Denham does not exist (geddit) and so could hardly have "had no trouble identifying the “agent” when his picture was posted on Indymedia’s website. Far from being a cop, it was actually a Sinn Fein activist from Malahide."

In fact it seems that the source of this story was simply the anonymous comment above! Indymedia contacts with SF members in North Dublin have revealed no postive identifications of the individual and the organisation doesn't even have any members in Malahide! Still, what else would you expect from the notoriously unreliable right-wing crazies that run Murdoch's press.

by the ipsiphi Mon May 24, 2004 19:00

excerpted from the pamphlet
"so now you're on the street"

Look at the ears. If you spot any electronic equipment in the ear, then your suspect might be a secret. Typically Spanish, French and German secrets have a black ear piece with short wire going into the neck of the shirt.
British and American agents have fleshtone earpieces the sort your deaf granny might have had if she was on the VHI in the 1970s.

Look at the shoes. Shoes tell you lots a person. Different countries have different levels of "secret police", but almost all offer higher than average pay to their agents. As we all know, shoes are expensive. If you're poor you only have one cheap pair. If you're better off you may have a few pairs of shoes for different purposes. Policemen always have the same generic type of shoe.
Solid, reliable, waterproof, and heavy.

Look at the jacket. Oh well things might be different now, but back when I was skulking around Ireland, a man with a moustache, a sports jacket and heavy solid reliable shoes meant just one thing "a Special branch man".
If there was a bulge under the left armpit, that meant the standard issue Smith & Wesson was nestling there.

Look into the eyes.
As we all know it is very easy to spot suspicious people. They behave abnormally. On a normal street, it's quite easy to seperate normal activity from odd in less than ten minutes. If you practise it ought only take five.
First know your categories.
Any busy inner city street will always have some of these characters:-
Hustlers, Pimps, Whores, Drugdealers, Christians, loitering vagrant types and shoppers.
The only people who don't look like their selling something (or someone) are the ones to watch.
Shoppers carry bags.
Secret agents never carry bags.

Lastly If the secret agent thinks you have spotted him, almost always two things will happen.
1. the agent will talk into a telephone.
2. teh agent will walk away

almost all really secret agents are female.
and not police at all.
they aer as near to invisible as they can get.