Eamonn McCann standing in Northern elections

by Steelie Sun Nov 02, 2003 18:07

Amazingly, this press release contains no mention of the fact that McCann is in the SWP. The party has vanished!

A few questions for the author:

What groups other than the SWP are involved in the Socialist Environmental Alliance? Were the Environmental Groups in the 'Alliance' happy that the press release does not mention any environmental issue whatsoever (aside from declaring themseleves for an 'ecologically sustainable' world which every single party also says that they stand for)? What is its decision making structure? Who is represented in the leadership?

Presumably, the SEA believes that the electorate should make as informed a choice as possible when casting their votes and will jump at the chance of informing us about these important matters.

by Ian Paisley Sun Nov 02, 2003 20:02

Suppose Steelie would rather the DUP or SF took the seat than an avowed socialist with four decades of political activism behind him.

Instead Steelie is only interested in rubbishing the whole thing.

by Gerry Ruddy - Irsp Sun Nov 02, 2003 20:25 gerryruddy at eircom dot net

The questions relating to who or what makes up the 'new party' Eamon is now standing for is relevant. Only a few months ago he chaired meetings for left unity but excluded the IRSP from invitations to those meetings. We in the IRSP had previously advocated and been involved in meetings last year to explore if there was any basis for a left unity crossing the sectarian divide and opposing the sectarianism of the GFA.
Once more we see in action the opportunism of the SWP. Of course any socialist worth his/her salt wants to see the defeat of the sectarian parties but rank opportunism is no the way to do. While personally I would like to see Eamon do well I have to say that the politics he is espousing are in essence the gas and water politics of Walkerism that James Connolly so effectively attacked. This is not the way to the Workers Republic.

by Janus Sun Nov 02, 2003 20:30

I reckon the reason McCann makes no mention if the SWP is because he knows it would be a vote winner. As a well known activist and commentator he is far more likely to gain votes without the stigma of being an SWP candidate. That said, I don't see him doing well enough to come within a million miles of a seat.

As for the IRSP, perhaps McCann felt that he didn't need a gang of debt collectors and enforcers for drug dealers doing canvassing for him. He might be sectarian, but he's not mad.

by Old Sea Dog Sun Nov 02, 2003 21:39

McCann is an admired trade unionist in the 6 counties and maybe looking to attract the working class vote across the great divide, however as someone who has been around for sometime in left politics, if he thinks he'll make any sort of dent in the pit of sectarian stormont then he is only fooling himself.

The fact that he is even looking to pitch himself in Stormont is questionable in itself. I attended several meetings in the six counties at which McCann spoke out clearly against the GFA yet here we have him back tracking for the sake of oppportunism. I suppose, once a trot always a trot.

As for the irps, why they would wish to get involved with the likes of McCann is equally questionable.

This is not to say that I, like many others on this site who seem to live on it attacking true working class politics, activists and revolutionary fighters or who think that the politics of Connolly or Costello are rubbish, for I don't.

The irps themselves have come a long way over the years, this is so very true and their class politcs remain intact. Unlike many middle class so called revolutionaries on this island who have dropped out, sold out or got sucked up their own ass holes selling or giving away their papers.

As a fellow trade unionist now up in my years, I have seen many struggles come and go and each time we learn from our mistakes in the class struggle, and each time I feel we take a step closer to our goal, a workers socialist republic.

All I can say to those here who think they're the one true voice of socialism and the rest who attempt to take the struggle further are druggies or gangsters is OUR DAY WILL COME!

by Bored of sects Sun Nov 02, 2003 22:10

The sectarians should read the current SW online at www.swp.ie, turn to page 4, where its says Eamonn McCann - Why I'm standing, might connect the fact that as an SWP member- he is standing at the request of other socialists, not members of the SWP. Alternatively read his statement on the northern SWP site.

by John Meehan Sun Nov 02, 2003 22:42

The platform of the SEA may not be perfect, but it is a better option than the institutionalised sectarianism of the Good Friday Agreement.

by Steelie Mon Nov 03, 2003 02:02

What groups other than the SWP are involved in the Socialist Environmental Alliance? Were the Environmental Groups in the 'Alliance' happy that the press release does not mention any environmental issue whatsoever (aside from declaring themseleves for an 'ecologically sustainable' world which every single party also says that they stand for)? What is its decision making structure? Who is represented in the leadership?

The SEA is the group that has selected McCann as a candidate. How on earth do you suspect anybody to vote for the candidate if the group refuses to answer any questions about itself. That strikes me as the height of arrogance.

by Senor Citizen Mon Nov 03, 2003 02:10

He spends all his time watching films. I didn't know he was in the SWP. Does he go out selling papers? Or does he leave that to the workers?

by Saoirse - SEA Mon Nov 03, 2003 08:53 seaderry at hotmail dot com

The comments in response to this posting are exactly why I had stopped posting to Indymedia. No matter what anyone does, it's never good enough for those who spend their times sitting at their computers plotting the perfect revolution but doing nothing about it.
I couldn't post the whole SEA platform as it would take up far too much space. Of course he includes his SWP membership in all literature - he has never hidden it. Anyway, shows how little any of you lot know about Derry. Everyone in Derry knows what McCann has for his tea, so he would be unable to deny his SWP membership if he wanted to. As for make-up of SEA, it is made up about one third SWP and the rest campaigners (including environmentalists) of all types, especially anti-war and lots of trade unionists. It is just an electoral expression of the friendly relations between the Left here. We work together, argue in the pub later, but have no problems working with people we don't 100% agree with, like the SWP. Pity you lot in the South and Belfast cannot do the same. There are no other parties besides the SWP active in Derry (the SP send someone down from Belfast occasionally to do stalls, but have no local presence). Just ask anyone in Derry and they will tell you the SEA is a very vibrant and broad grouping (it's not a party, but an alliance) and unless you think there are 100 SWP members in Derry, then is very much NOT an SWP front - although I think they were involved in setting it up, not sure, it was before I got involved.
The SEA - like the attempted Left Unity grouping -is opposed to militarism and paramilitarism, so that's why the IRSP were not invited. Nothing to do with opportunism.
A website is being set up so you can all see soon for yourselves. I'll not be bothered trying to inform any of yous what's going on in the North anymore. If you can't cheer someone like Eamonn McCann, then Connolly himself could rise from the grave and all you would do is carp and gripe.

by Killian Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:57

"There are no other parties besides the SWP active in Derry" - Really!!

I noticed you still have not mentioned even one other politcal party, group, NGO or individual who is in the SEA.

So aside from the SWP who is in the SEA?

And you can F*ck right off with the emotional bullshit of "you are only being sectarian", it is a non runner. Just kindly inform us, educate us if you like of, who the SEA is made up of.

by Get Real Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:25

Some people who post on this site really make me laugh. They set themselves up as the 'left patrol'. Without any reference to their own organisation or politics, demand questions of others who try and take things forward. Killian, ask all you like, but if I were the SEA in Derry I would tell you to piss off - who are you? a cop? or what? Support Eamonn McCann if you want - yes he's SWP and yes others support him (NGO's -what the f**k are you on)If not then I for one won't lose sleep.

by Anonymous Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:48

John Meehan says congratulations to Eamon McCann and says the platform of the SEA might not be perfect but it is a better option than the institutionalised sectarianism of the GFA.

Amazing stuff that. Perhaps he is forgetting the platform of the Derek Delaney and the institutionalised sectarianism of the SWP.

by mattt Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:56

And it is that familiarity that will ensure that he will get 3 or 4% of the vote, if he is lucky. Of course if that helps to prevent Sinn Féin taking an extra seat, the trots will consider it a good days work.

by John Meehan Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:05

SEA Derry should keep posting news on this site - but it would be better if the author identified her/himself.

I agree it is frustrating to see rafts of politically sectarian commentary following a news story like this - my advice is to ignore and boycott them most of the time - especially when contributors hide behind pseudonyms - which is exactly what I am doing in regard to the comment attacking my earlier contribution. If the contributor would like to identify her/himself, I am happy to discuss the point raised.

by Get Real Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:10

We'll see. But what's the problem in taking a seat from SDLP(II) or as they are locally called, Sinn Fein. This is the group whose leader allow the British Govt to see what weapons have been decomissioned but not ordinary folk (or republicans for that matter). SF are just the latest constitutional party on the bloc - armed with neo-liberalism and funding from the US rich.

by Steelie Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:14

Or ask who the (previously unknown) group is that is seeking our votes. What impertinence!

by Get Real Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:28

The trouble is Steelie is when you ask questions and make points, in whose interest are you doing it. For instance it is obvious you belong to a party, but your posts are designed to stir the pot. You are not based in Derry and therefore cannot vote, but you continue to cast dispersions on McCann and the SEA. Why don't you do something more constructive like building an alternative here in the North?

by Andrew Mon Nov 03, 2003 12:47

There are trolls and then there are trolls. Some (like Steelie) ask real questions that other people are curious about. The best way of dealing with them is answering the questions.

In this case it should be easy enough to list the NGO's etc that are part of the SEA. Your refusal to do so makes it look like the SEA is simply another example of an SWP front that we are all too familar with in Dublin. Maybe things are different in Derry but so far all you have done is claimed they are without presenting any evidence for this claim.

by Ruairi Mon Nov 03, 2003 13:24

Once upon a time in Toronto, a man sang a song about this stuff.

It was called
'It you don't like the tit, quit suckin'!'

Nuff said.

by maalox - The sneaky secret party Mon Nov 03, 2003 14:56 maalox at safe-mail dot net

Last time round, when B. Muldoon of the SWP was running for a seat on the council (via the SEA), their campaign material promised £7 an hour minimum wage, and contained circle-A symbols on every poster. Noone, in my admittedly limited knowledge, has ever won a wage increase by electing an individual local councillor. As for the appropriation of anarchist symbolism, well, a group of local anarchists printed up a few stickers to clarify the situation.

There was in fact at least one environmentalist in their campaign team (he is now running for the NI Green Party in South Belfast), and a friend of mine remembers him calling around to her house for a chat one night about planning issues, only to see her own words posted through the door in an SEA leaflet the next day.

At a recent talk (that i wasn't at, but talked to some people who were), the SWP, workers' party and the communist party of Ireland (CPI) were said to have launched their joint electoral strategy. I have since been told that the CPI have pulled out and are advising their members to vote for the Women's coalition.

Perhaps someone more knowlegable would like to comment?

by mattt Mon Nov 03, 2003 14:59

Remember who gave McCann a living writing for the gutter press in Dublin while real Derry revolutionaries were out fighting the Brits before you start talking crap about SF being funded by "rich Americans". Well, there are tens of thousands of working people in New York and Boston (the actual origins of any money collected) who I am sure only wish that this was so. Seems strange that McCann and his joke of a party (who funds them I wonder???) are only motivated to become active now having spent the last 30 years pontificating on the sidelines. Except to delude a few hundred people to vote for them and thus prevent SF taking seats in tight contests. Will they be standing "anti-sectarian" candidates (there's a fkning joke!!) against Donaldson and Trimble and Paisley?

by SP - Socialist Party Mon Nov 03, 2003 15:16

Socialist Party
Election Press Release 2 Nov 03

Jim Barbour challenges political parties to refuse to use private mail companies during postal strike

South Belfast Socialist Party candidate Jim Barbour has announced his full support for postal workers who are currently engaged in industrial action.

Mr Barbour, the Northern Ireland firefighters’ union leader, whose central election theme is to Defend Public Services, stated

"Postal workers have been forced to take this action by a brutal management and the Blair Government. What lies beneath this dispute is an attempt to further erode postal workers conditions and to sell off the postal service to the private sector."

"My fellow Socialist Party candidate for East Belfast Tommy Black and I will be offering concrete support to postal workers in Northern Ireland who may decide to take solidarity action. In the event of local industrial action, we are publicly calling on all candidates to pledge not to use private companies to distribute their election manifestos."

For further comment contact:

Jim Barbour 07711210731

Tommy Black 07742405821

Contact the Socialist Party on 028 90 232962 or 07743282321

e-mail: [email protected]





NOTES FOR EDITORS:

Jim Barbour is an executive member of the Fire Brigades Union, representing firefighters in Northern Ireland.

Jim led firefighters in the recent dispute over pay and against the run down and privatisation of the fire service.

If elected he will act with the same resolve to defend public services and uphold the jobs and conditions of the people who work in them.

Jim was a founder of the South Belfast Campaign Against Water Charges and is currently helping setting up anti water charges groups around the constituency.

Jim is married with one daughter and lives in the Four Winds area.

Tommy Black lives in the Newtownards Road area and works as a school caretaker in Ashfield Girls’ High School. Tommy is chair of the East Belfast "Water Charges – We Won’t Pay" Campaign and is currently organising across the constituency to oppose this unjust tax.

As the former Chair of the Walkway Community Group he successfully campaigned for better facilities in East Belfast. As a union rep in the public sector union, NIPSA, he has campaigned for the rights of education workers and against the privatisation of our schools. He played a leading role in the struggle of term time workers for a full wage.

by vevay Mon Nov 03, 2003 15:18

McCann cheered on the British soldiers into Derry. He failed to explain the true nature of the Army in keeping down working class communities. McCann is no real alternative

by Ruairi Mon Nov 03, 2003 15:56

what's the story with McCann allegedly 'cheering' British soldiers?

Me thinks that one needs clarifying.

by pat c Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:01

The SWP (and McCann) welcomed the deployment of British Troops on the basis that it would give the Nationalist Working Class a breather from the sectarian attacks they had suffered from the RUC. This was a position common to most far left groups.

Actually the only group who opposed the deployment of British Troops was Militant!

McCann can be forgiven for getting it wrong; Militant/SP should be congratulated for getting it right for once!

by Socialist Worker reader Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:02

When British troops went into NI the SWP welcomed them. This was their position, look back at old 'Socialist Workers'.

by Janus Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:06

Did Pat C just put up a post congratulating the Millies for getting something right?

A sight so bizarre it must herald strange disturbances coming in the future as portents of old.

I never thought I'd live to see the day.

by war baby. (another one) Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:13

most of today's readers were not born.
little test:
if there is any member of the ditorial group who was alive (other than Pat C.) in 1969, affix your name in the comments:

by Socialist Worker reader Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:16

SO what if people were not alive? The fact remains that the SWP had a terrible position on British soldiers entering NI. This is fact and they still stand by that position.

This not being alive is bullshit. You were not alive during WW1 does that mean you can have no opinion on it? Of course not.

by war baby Mon Nov 03, 2003 16:33

missed my point.
I hold many opinions on 1969, and many on the SWM, and my opinions on the SWM are based on the events of "my life", I don't need to look back as far as 1969 before my blessèd incarnation to tell you that the swimmies are wankers, I slept with one on several different occasions in the autumn of 1989, she was special and lovely, but still a bolshevik. Meanwhile on the other side of reality, the Barcelona swimmies have started a lecture season entitled "Bolshevikism the way forward", which just goes to prove that they are borgish hunnish types, who latch onto anything that might increase support.
anyway, 1969 was a _long time ago_ and to only discuss the reaction of a "micro-left" grouping to those events would be to belittle the importance of that year not only in Irish but World history. yawn yawn.

by E - SWP Mon Nov 03, 2003 17:03

Before this goes on and on, this famous issue of the Socialist Worker from 1969 can be read at

http://www.marxists.de/ireland/swaug69/index.htm

and then the whole issue, along with the editorial can be read and put into the context of what was happening at that time.

by Aunty Plagiarism Mon Nov 03, 2003 17:35

Many of us Derry people - including those of us who regard the SWP with complete derison - are glad to have the opportunity to vote for someone like McCann whose intellect, capacity and activism are way above all the others on the ballot paper at the moment. It doesn't make him someone everyone agrees with. He isn't someone who has been right 100% of the time. Nor are people confused about or even agree with half of what McCann advocates, but lots of us can agree with the other half and thats more than most of the others on the ballot paper put together. Ask the Bloody Sunday families about their respect for McCann and you can see how he transcends the trot politics. For those reasons quite a few people intend to vote for him. And at least he's presenting an alternative. What are the rest of you doing on Nov 26th?

The SEA isn't technically an SWP appendix, in that there are other, non-Trots associated with it, but its largely run by the Trots, some of whom mean well.

by Killian Mon Nov 03, 2003 17:37

Ok but back to the point who is in the SEA. To the person above who asked you am I am when I asked the question ten threads or so above. I am in Sinn Fein and lived in Derry and therefore given my interest in politics and the city I would like for someone from SEA to tell me what the composition of the organisation is.

It really is quite simply, just list who are the component political parties, organisations, NGOs or individuals in this "alliance".

John Meehan, really I am surpirsed at you supporting a candidate going to stand for elections in the assembly and administration you are so opposed to ;)

by Mike Piatza Mon Nov 03, 2003 21:44

Come off it matt, SF are not funded by Irish illegal construction workers and bar maids, since when was Chuck Feeney, Bill Flynn or Structure Tone inc part of the working class. The last few Gerry Adams dinners in NYC have been $500 and $1000 a plate affairs. Friends of SF don't hold rallies or pickets or collect in pubs - corporate Irish America is the biggest funder of SF (with the odd donation from Coca Cola)! Noraid were shafted once the prospect of the big bucks was sighted.
As for McCann I would if I could give him a vote, only because he won't be spouting the same green/orange crap that passes for republicanism these days (in the 6 counties). Funnily enough I'd still give SF a vote in the south.

by dermot - DAWC Mon Nov 03, 2003 23:17

Guess the SWP presume that anybody they've been associated with supports them.

People who were on Derry Anti War Coalition's mailing list (supposed to be for contact for DAWC meetings/events) are being sent emails from Goretti Horgan (McCann's partner, and DAWC secretary) to support McCann's campaign.

by Dermot - DAWC Tue Nov 04, 2003 01:02

Dear all,
We were all horrified by the way our elected representatives lined up to shake George Bush's bloodied hands at Hillsborough. Well, now we have a chance to make an elected representative of an anti-war activist. As you probably know, Eamonn McCann is standing in the Assembly elections. This email is to ask all of you fellow anti-war activists to get involved in the campaign to get
him elected. Opposition to the war and the warped priorities of the system that produces war is at the heart of his campaign, so I don't think this email is an abuse of this list.

Every evening, from 5pm onwards, there will be groups of canvassers leaving campaign HQs which is in Waterloo Street, next door to the Gweedore
bar.
Canvassing will continue til about 8pm, so if you can spare an hour anytime between 5 and 8 any night, get along to Waterloo St. Alternatively, you can call in there, pick up leaflets and just canvass your own street or few streets - any
help appreciated.

There is a meeting this coming Thursday night in the Nerve Centre at 7.30 to launch Eamonn's election campaign. It's important for morale to get lots of people along to that - so tell your friends.Tonight there is a Bob Dylan fundraising night in Sandinos from 9.30.

Finally, if your life is just too busy and complicated to be able to work to get Eamonn elected, maybe you could make a contribution to the campaign. The SEA has no big backers, no corporate donors - we rely on the average
five-eights coughing up a tenner here, £50 there. So far, the response has been amazing but already we are scaling down our printing plans because we cannot afford to, for example, get the kind of posters the established parties use.
So, if you can afford a few bob, here are the details of the bank account or you can always drop into the office with a donation. Bank account: Socialist Environmental Alliance, Sort code 93-84-83, Account number 27456-059, First Trust Bank, Meadow Bank, Derry.

The email address for the SEA is [email protected] and the office phone number is 71371592.

Goretti

by sp member (personal capacity) Tue Nov 04, 2003 01:08

As I understand it the sea in derry is more than the swp though the exact make up is unclear.

Eamon mcCann will, i think, get a reasonable vote he is a well known person that many in the bogside would respect.

The SP have a presance in Derry and have had for many years it is currently developing mainly through youth work around Iraq and work on the water charges.
During the anti war mobilisations Socialist Youth played a significant role in the school student strike with youth comrades leading hundreds of scool students out.

by dermot - DAWC Tue Nov 04, 2003 01:51

First of all, the SP played only a small part in the DAWC, altough there were some interesting meetings in Badgers which were largely taken up by SP and SWP slagging each other off.

Secondly, the two biggest schools in the walkouts were ironically the "snob" catholic Grammar schools Thornhill and St Columbs. Were these led by the SP?

Finally, you might detail some of the agitation about water charges the SP has being doing in Derry.

by A reluctant swimmie Tue Nov 04, 2003 02:13

I agree with all the criticisms of the SWP but I would still vote for McCann. Who else is running that lefties could consider voting for? The DUP? OUP? No thanks. Sinn Fein's socialist republic (no scrap that, an Ireland of equals, lets take all the middle class SDLP votes) RSF or RIRA - The border smugglers fumbling in the celtic mists of the past? Or the IRSP as looney as the swimmies but more dangerous-they have guns. What a fucking choice. The anarkids may be right.

by sp member (personal capacity) Tue Nov 04, 2003 20:49

Dermot does not think much of the role of the SP in Derry, clearly he is entitled to his opinion and although I disagree I would not try to convince him other wise.
The point that I was making above about the SP was merely that the Socialist Party and Socialist Youth exist as active localy based organisations with a history of activity in Derry.

by sp Tue Nov 04, 2003 22:54

Just to fill in some of the gaps on the activity of Derry SP/SY.

Played a role in anti war movement taking part in all major demos/protests and had speakers at most major events.

Organised significant sections of the school students who took part in school student strikes.

Campaigned against low pay calling for an increase in the minimum wage.

Raised funds for striking fire fighters and supported fire fighters picket lines.

Attended anti bin tax campaign activites in Dublin.

Assisted in trade union election campaigns.

Supported striking NJC workers.

This is by no means all but gives an idea of the level of activity of Derry SP/SY

by dermot - DAWC Tue Nov 04, 2003 23:24

What exactly do the following wonderful phrases mean:

>>Played a role in>taking part in>Campaigned against . . . calling for>Raised funds for>and supported>Attended>Assisted in>Supported>taking part in all major demos/protests and had speakers at most major events.>Organised significant sections of the school students who took part in school student strikes

by sp Wed Nov 05, 2003 01:22

Dermot DAWC.
First can i just say I did not want to get to bogged down in details about Derry SP/SY as this thread is not really on that subject.
For that reason i may not have been detailed enough in my description of the role of Derry SP/SY.
I will attempt to correct that error below.
I have copyed my comments from above and will expand on them.

Played a role in anti war movement taking part in all major demos/protests and had speakers at most major events.

This means that the Derry SP/SY took part in all major events, marches, rallies and meetings.

Organised significant sections of the school students who took part in school student strikes.

This means that hundreds of school students where organised by socialist youth school student members to strike against the war, walk out of their schools, attend rallies and join the many other anti war campaigners in the fight against the war.

Campaigned against low pay calling for an increase in the minimum wage.

This means street activity, leaflets, info in the paper and Derry low pay bulletin. All as part of a wider SP campaign explaining peoples rights to a minimum wage and calling for the minimum wage to be raised and applied to young workers who are currently excluded and exposing low pay employers.

Raised funds for striking fire fighters and supported fire fighters picket lines.

This means street collections for the striking fire fighters families hardship fund and visits to the fire fighters picket lines.

Attended anti bin tax campaign activites in Dublin.

This means going to and taking part in anti bin tax actions.

Assisted in trade union election campaigns.

This means Derry SP/SY members played an active role in distributing election material.

Supported striking NJC workers.

This means attending pickets.

by IMC denizen Wed Nov 05, 2003 02:17

Good God "sp" don't you know how the standard bickering on the end of a long thread works by now?

Dermot wasn't asking you for more details because he was interested. He was waiting for you to say something so that he can contradict you / criticise you / accuse you of lying / bring up something else that has nothing to do with the article that started the thread.

You are supposed to respond by laying into the record of the SWP. (Presumably he is a member but like most other SWPers on indymedia at the moment he is pretending not to be in a highly unconvincing manner). You aren't allowed to try to give a clear and polite answer to a question!

What is this place coming to?

by Doire Wed Nov 05, 2003 13:52

They never support the Bloody Sunday Commemoration March. During the HBlock Hunger Strikes, Militant in league with loyalists and right wingers controlled the Derry Trades Council and condemned local workers who took strike action in support of the Hunger Strikers. Their then leader Bill Webster went on to get 79 votes in the local elections.

by chris loughlin - sp Wed Nov 05, 2003 14:53

have been a member of the sp in belfast for three years and we've been on the bloody sunday commemoration march every single year ive been a member. personally have never been on it but would express solidarity and support for all victims families of those tragic events.

sp bad record in derry? yes opposing para-militarism, militarism and the trampling of workers rights. not kowtowing to republicans, we have an independent working class revolutionary position in politics and every day life.

i dont agree with people saying mccan just standing to take votes away from sf. hes trying to get votes for an independent alternative and fairplay. its a shame sf dont believe in freedom to fight for a better non-sectarian future.

by Doire Wed Nov 05, 2003 15:50

Militant/SP have never openly come on the Bloody Sunday march, never a banner, they are afraid it would upset Loyalists. This year they turned up at the end of the march and sold papers.

Chris hasnt dealt with Militant blocking with Loyalists and the right on Derry Trades Council. While thousands of workers were on strike in support of the Hunger Strikers, the Militant were condemning the strik action as sectarian.

Websters vote - a total of 79 - showed what the people of Derry thought of these clowns.

by SP member Wed Nov 05, 2003 17:04

1) The Militant newspaper ran the front page headline "Derry - it was murder" after Bloody Sunday. Only our tendency opposed the deployment of British Troops in Derry in the first place.

2) Bill Webster was no longer in the SP when he stood for the elections.

by Doire Wed Nov 05, 2003 17:45

I never mentioned your paper. Why dont you have a banner on the march and why dont you address the H Block strikes issue. Bill Webster was a member of Militant in 1981 when he stood in the local elections. I am sure that John Throne or Denis Tourish could confirm this. The Trade
I gave him too many votes!
He only got 73!

Londonderry E

1981 results

First Count:
F. Donnelly (SDLP) 1,344
F. McAteer (IIP) 1,203
W. O'Connell (SDLP) 1,176
L.J. Green (SDLP) 984
W. McCorriston (SDLP) 976
D.G. Davis (UUP) 956
Ann Netherington (DUP) 560
Mary I/ Breen (Alliance) 563
J.A. Crossan (IIP) 349
E.A. Bradley (IIP) 301
D.N. McIntyre (IIP) 180
J. Duffy (Trade Union Camp.) 164
P. Whoriskey (IRSP) 144
M Shiels (Ind) 122
B. Webster (Trade Union Camp.) 73

by matt Wed Nov 05, 2003 17:45

He is referring to the Local elections of 1981 held during the hunger strikes when Bill Webster stood with the full support of Militant who mobilised their entire national membership and dragged people over from Glascow and Liverpool to canvas for him. And they did exactly as Doire says in every trade union branch and committee opposing strike action in support of the hunger strikers. And hadn't even the balls to admit this because their fall-back position was that if there was a "mood" in favour of strike action on the shop floor or site then they would go along with it and say nothing! As for opposing paramilitarism, if that means condemning the IRA and cosying up to the fascist scum of the UVF then yes they were certainly oposed to paramilitarism. And just as an after thought my young (and therefore deludable) socialist comrades, don't beleive it when those who were there at the time tell you that they were opposing bourgeois nationalism because in 1982 they were the only group to the left of the Labour Party in Britain NOT to call for the withdrawal of British troops from the Falklands because English workers were doing their usual stunt of swallowing imperialist crap about war.

by Trot Watcher and Catcher Outer Wed Nov 05, 2003 18:02

Militant may be able to lay claim to being the only left-wing party to forthrightly oppose the arrival of troops in 1969. The SWP were wrong. Trouble is, Militant subsequently refused to support the Troops Out position. Even voted against it at British Labour Party conferences. Too simplistic, they argued. Would lead to civil war. Presumably, they are now saying the same thing about the Yanks in Iraq. If not, then their position on Troops Out of the North was wrong. Or do they want it both ways?

by Dermot - DAWC Wed Nov 05, 2003 20:16

>>Played a role in anti war movement taking part in all major demos/protests and had speakers at most major events.
This means that the Derry SP/SY took part in all major events, marches, rallies and meetings.

Lies. The SP only tagged on to DAWC at the beginning of this year. Then disappeared for summer.

>>Organised significant sections of the school students who took part in school student strikes.
This means that hundreds of school students where organised by socialist youth school student members to strike against the war, walk out of their schools, attend rallies and join the many other anti war campaigners in the fight against the war.

AS I said before - the hundreds consisted mostly of the "snob" catholic grammar schools (Is this SP's constituency?). They mostly organised themselves in _spite_ of SP machinations. Give them credit.

>>Campaigned against low pay calling for an increase in the minimum wage.
This means street activity, leaflets, info in the paper and Derry low pay bulletin.

Not in Derry you didn't - never saw or heard of it.

>>Raised funds\for striking fire fighters and supported fire fighters picket lines.
This means street collections for the striking fire fighters families hardship fund and visits to the fire fighters picket lines

As above.

>>Attended anti bin tax campaign activites in Dublin.
This means going to and taking part in anti bin tax actions.

This has to do with Derry because ... ???

>>Assisted in trade union election campaigns.
This means Derry SP/SY members played an active role in distributing election material.

Yawn.

>>Supported striking NJC workers.
This means attending pickets

Bet they were grateful.

Is this all you can come up with?

by IMC denizen Wed Nov 05, 2003 21:15

See "sp"?

I told you so. You weren't being asked a question by someone who was actually interested. You were being asked a question by a member of the SWP who was looking for an opportunity for some end of long thread bickering.

Now you respond in kind: The SWP are sectarian scum! and so on. It's not too late to learn the end of thread etiquette.

All together now...

by Dexters Wed Nov 05, 2003 23:01

'sp' claims that the SP in Derry "Raised funds\for striking fire fighters and supported fire fighters picket lines. This means street collections for the striking fire fighters families hardship fund and visits collected money for the striking firefighters."

'Doire' claims that "Not in Derry you didn't - never saw or heard of it."

Easy way to solve this is for the SP to scan in a copy of the receipt of funds donated, or a letter from the firefighters acknowleding the donation or any other part of the paper trail that proves that the SP;
1)Did raise money under the banner of the striking workers.
2)Actually gave the money to the firefighters hardship fund.

I look forward to seeing this proof.

by dermot - DAWC Wed Nov 05, 2003 23:44

LOL dead right. Show the receipts or shut up and piss off.

Incidentally I'm not SWP. You can see that if you read what I said previously about them here, and how they've manipulated DAWC, trying to rope in what was supposed to be a broad-based anti-war coalition as election machine fodder.

by sp member (personal capacity) Wed Nov 05, 2003 23:55

Dexters says
'Doire' claims that "Not in Derry you didn't - never saw or heard of it."

To be fair I think it is Dermot DAWC who said this not Doire.

I have to say I am a little supprised that Dermot says he didnt know of our efforts on behalf of the fire fighters. I can only assume that he missed the DAWC meeting where SP/SY where comdemed for collecting money for the fire fighters when in the view of our critic we should have been putting all our efforts into the anti war campaign.

I have to admitt that we tried to carry on both struggles at the same time.

by dermot - DAWC Thu Nov 06, 2003 00:31

You make is up as you go along don't you?

Guess we have to repeat it again.

Show the receipts or shut up and piss off.

by sp Thu Nov 06, 2003 00:46

To be fair to the individual involved in condeming the collection for the fire fighters at the DAWC he was extremely committed to the anti war campaign and did genuinely think that the fire fighters where a distraction.
I dont think that his view was shared in any way by the other activists in DAWC but it did become one of the more light hearted memories of the anti war movement in Derry.

Suprised you dont remember that meeting dermot.

by Dexters Thu Nov 06, 2003 01:12

Thats two replies and still no clarification on what happened to the money you raised in the name of striking workers.

What did the SP do with the money?

by Angry Thu Nov 06, 2003 02:32

This is fucking disgusting.

The FBU in the North presented Carmel Gates of the SP with a fire axe mounted on a plaque in honour of the support she and other members of the Socialist Party had given to the firefighters in their dispute.

There is a reason for that. It's because the Socialist Party did its best to raise funds for the strikers and to build solidarity in other unions, most notably NIPSA.

If only their anonymous critics on Indymedia had done as much. You make me sick.

by Nipsa member Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:00

It was actually presented on behalf of Nipsa and to 'all' those Nipsa activists who provided solidarity.

by Dexters Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:55

"Angry" I think your anger is a little too much. My query is not whether you supported the firefighters, that is not in question, it is based around the fact that SP are claiming they raised money for the firefighters. My suspicion is that the SP may have raised money for the firefighters but used that money to fund their own "support the firefighters" campaign.

So my original clarification stands, do the SP have any proof of donating money to the firefighters hardship fund? Money that according to a derry member was raised by the SP under the banner of assisting striking workers.

by Angry Thu Nov 06, 2003 17:44

Some anonymous little shit comes on here and insinuates that the Socialist Party stole from striking workers and you think that my "anger" is too much?

All money that the Socialist Party raised for striking firefighters went to those firefighters.

So, "dexter", how much money did you raise for the firefighters during the dispute?

by Dexters Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:25

I raised nothing for striking workers - but unlike the SP I never claimed I did.

Angry this is very simple, as you know there is murmurings about monies collected by the SP during their bin tax campaign in fingal as it seems monies were directed to SP campaigning under the guise of the anti-bin tax activities.

You claim again that all the money raised by SP for the firefighters was given to the hardship fund. Surely it is not unreasonable to ask for some verification of that claim.

And again, was all the money collected for firefighters given to firefighters hardship fund or was some of the money raised used to pay for the SPs "support the firefighters" campaign?

The SP constantly moan (rightly in my view) about corruption and lack of transparency by the major parties on this island, why are you so hostile and, it appears, fearful to provide details on to support the claims of good work you have done.

I, and most of the readers, wouldn't have missed the fact that earlier in this thread an SP member claimed that the firefighters presented the SP with an axe to thank them for the support - that claim has since turned out to be false. Am I wrong then to be a little suspicious over your "fundraising" claims?

by Brian - SP (personal capacity) Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:52

What you are accusing us of is disgusting. You are hiding behind a cloak of anonymity to spread the most disgusting smears about the Socialist Party.

Trying to spread people of stealing from striking workers is as serious a smear as you can spread in the labour movement.

The Socialist Party organised a large number of stalls to collect money for striking firefighters in both Britain and Ireland. I was on such a stall myself in London.

Our members in the trade unions did their best to build support and solidarity from other unions.

By your own account, you did nothing to help the strikers. Yet you post on Indymedia, anonymously, insinuating that we stole from strikers and, in passing, that we misappropriated funds from the anti-bin tax campaign. You don't bother to provide any evidence to back up a smear, but then evidence isn't the point of mud-throwing.

by Steelie Thu Nov 06, 2003 18:57

"You don't bother to provide any evidence to back up a smear, but then evidence isn't the point of mud-throwing."

Quite true Brian, and I do believe that this is probably an example of mud throwing and nothing else. BUT evidence is also the best defence against mud throwing. If you aren't able to come up with any, more of the mud may well stick.

by Dermot - DAWC Thu Nov 06, 2003 19:42

Long back say about twenty years ago or so, there were similar claims by Militant about raising money for the Dunnes Stores strikers in Dublin (about South African fruit), precious little of which they saw.

by Dexters Thu Nov 06, 2003 20:43

I am not accusing anyone of stealing. I have asked a couple of reasonable questions about a issue that the SP has raised, namely; how great they are in raising money for striking workers.

You have heard before how sometimes money fundraised in the past has been used to "reimburse" campaign expenses. I am wondering is that the case here. Thats all.

I am certainly not the one to raise the issue about the bin tax money, I have defended the anti-bin tax campaigns to others against the whispering's that I have heard about that money raised.

The simpliest way to solve this so called "outrage" is to post the information that would provide the clarification and verification about where is the strikers money that the SP raised.

If you refuse to do this well then i think your hysterical postings become somewhat a case of "doth protest too much".

by Brian Thu Nov 06, 2003 20:59

I have only posted once on this thread, so I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention my hysterical replies.

You are posting anonymously to Indymedia, insinuating both that the Socialist Party took money it collected for striking firefighters and that it misappropriated funds from the anti-bin tax campaign. I say insinuating because you pose your smears in the form of questions, but you get your message across.

The technique is simple:

"Is it true that Dexters is a wife beater? I've heard murmurs about it, but I always defended him..."

There are no "murmurs" that the Socialist Party misappropriated money from the anti-bin tax campaign or that we failed to hand over money collected for striking workers. There are no such "murmurs" because there is absolutely no truth to such nonsense. There are just smears. Smears posted by an anonymous prick (and then echoed by the scabrous "Dermot").

Now this is the last time I am going to waste my time arguing with you. Maybe this is a case of whichever cop has the job of monitoring this site getting bored and trying to cause trouble. Maybe you are an amateur shit-stirrer. I don't know and I don't care. I do know that you are scum.

by Amused reader - (No relation to dexter!) Thu Nov 06, 2003 22:53

Interesting thread!

Dare I ask, perhaps now is not the best time, but what happened to all the money raised during the anti-water charges campaign in Dublin?

by iosaf Thu Nov 06, 2003 23:57

i told my love oh swim out as far as you want...
and i waited.
Eamonn doesn't live in Derry.
He lives in Terenure.
Now if Eamonn can stand for election in Derry for the swimmies and their SEA pals, why can't I vote for him?
Ah but there in the salt.
I can only ·not vote· for Eamonn Mc Cann coz I am not British.
Most of Derry is not British either, but by some twist of electoral prejudice and democratic enshrinement of suffrage, they may vote whether or not they are resident in the constituencies of their birth for Mr Eamonn Mc Cann of Terenure Dublin 6. is it West? Dublin 6w?
However the people who live in Eamonn Mc Cann's constituency of South Dublin, where the above commenting Killian certainly has contemplated a few of the electoral issues, may not vote for him in Derry because they are not British, nor may they vote for anyone in their constituency if they leave the state.
These poor people of Terenure and indeed Eire are alone in this disenfranchisement amongst the peoples of Europe.
Tomorrow the Catalans, who wish to, may vote by postal means at the Spanish Embassy to Ireland.
Though the votes will not be counted till November 16, 2003. Interestingly the "non-votes" of "non-residents" don't get counted much.

I shall not vote for Eamonn, oh swim out as far you want to, because I am neither technically British nor fully enfranchised as an Irish citizen.

(oh and the house in Terenure is lovely.)
[I smoked grass when he was away on holidays in his library/study/ little room left of the hall door.]

{oh the anarchist s/he get @bout}

by sp member (personal capacity) Fri Nov 07, 2003 01:57

An interesting line of attack this.

Started with

The sp not existing in derry.

Then

The sp didnt do any support activity for the fire fighters in derry.

Then

The sp uses some money raised for the fire fighters to finance their own fire fighters support campaign.

All untrue.

Didnt think the election in derry had quite so much heat in it.

by John Meehan Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:13

Could the anonymous anti SP people do us a favour, and take their useless argument to another thread?

by Joe Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:18

I agree that this anonymous mud throwing against the SP is disgraceful. In the case of the bin tax campaign (at least in the city area) regular accounts are produced so the activists are aware of where the money goes. Mostly to lawyers these days!

However I do have to say that at the start of the summer we saw a very long argument over SP members using the same methods (but this time in the Irish Times as well as indymedia) to attack the black bloc. At the time I pointed out that the danger of them using such methods was that it made the method in general more acceptable, something that would probably come back to haunt them.

If people want to make accusations they should present clear evidence for them. And 'someone told me' or 'everyone' knows are not clear evidence.

by PK Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:08

As the SWP call on Dublin people to mobilise for McCann's election in Derry for three weekend running, today it became obvious that they can't even mobilise the communities that they are supposed to be 'active' in on the Northside for the Dublin anti-bin charges campaign.

As the council is implementing non-collection and real activists are chasing trucks through Coolock, Santry etc. the SWP are nowhere to be seen.
But sure poor ol' Donal doesn't know whether he should be in Dorset street, Coolock, Donnycarney, Dun Laoghaire or planet Earth.

Best of luck in Derry. Any chance of ye all staying there.