No Responsibility for Waste = Privitisation = Incineration

by binned Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:22

Was there any protests at the charges?

by Joe Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:26

Nice to see from the title of the piece that the Green party is once more using a Finna Fail statement to have a go at the people rather then business or the government. In Dublin lots of us go to the bother of bringing our bottles to the nearest bring centre. But 75%+ of these go into landfill and the rest get transported long distances by road.

On my estate where almost no one is paying the bin tax around 70% of houses put out green bins each month. But 75%+ of that is also going into landfill. Probably some houses only fill a green bin every other month (so maybe 80-95% are already recycling in this way). Which is the major source of landfill here, the unrecycled 75% or the 5% who don't yet use green bins?

The Green Party need to stop lining up with Fianna Fail to attack the working class and start putting blame where it actually lies. Patricularly at the present when it is quite clear what the Fianna Fail agenda is (and I suggest from the title Niall gave his post the real GP agenda here).

by PK Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:48

Big feature on the wonderful people of Galway and how amazing they are at recycling on one of the news shows yesterday.
And there was no sign of the wonderful NOB head. And I had the finger on the vid remote raring to go.

by stop the bin tax Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:49

Supporters of the bin tax constantly claim that it is needed to provide an incentive for people to recycle.

The figures provided above prove this is not the case. Despite the fact that the bin tax has been levied around most of the country for longer than 3 years - waste has increased by 30% in that period.

The bin tax is not about reducing waste, but about creating a profitable service that can be privatised.

by Fingal Res Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:53

Before Tax: number of trucks collecting refuse from 14

After Tax: number of trucks collecting refuse from 10.

to recap:
Was 14, now is 10.

Do you want a picture?

by pat c Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:59

it was reduced to 10 lorries thru productivity measures, less workers, less lorries, same amount of wastr. it hasnt gone away ye know.

by Fingal Res Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:13

PatC.
Please send copies of my 'work' to Fingal Council, as I haven't been paid. thanks.

anyway, no pic for you, you'll have to make do with some big numbers.

(Jan- Aug) 2001: 45,375 tonnes collected
(Jan-Aug) 2003: 35,432 tonnes collected.

Now it is possible that the sneaky residents of Fingal have been eating their own rubbish, or more likely, have conspired with the weights and measures office to redefine what a tonne is.

Anyway, I'm off to Swords to demand my cash from Willie Soffe and the boys,

btw, what is the going rate for CC Hacks, 50 cent per word,

Please advise...

by Mr Disco - Ucd SA (Socialist Alternative) Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:13

Could the last poster clarify:

Does 14 non wheely bin (less efficient at picking up waste) slightly smaller trucks = 10 new (and certainly bigger) much more efficient trucks?

these new trucks move along the road quicker than alan partridge has sex.

The green party line on waste, is that the bin tax is good because when prople pay by weight, they will produce less waste.

So, my 1kg of filthy steak and chops wrapping will cost me the exact same amount to dispose of as a filthy rich green tds 1kg of nuts box wraping.

Equality indeed. This party have come out in favour of a flat rate tax.

im sure the multi millionaires of our society will be extra frightened of buying double petro chemical wrapped choclate and ice cream,in case they cant afford the tiny tiny percentage of their inheritance/industrialist salary that will go on having 10 wheely bins outside their gate.

this will espically be the case when they control indusrries that produce relatively huge amounts of waste compared to householders.

but lets get those darned filthy people on and above minimum hourly pay to fork out and learn about waste management. burn their pockets.

thats the green way.

before you know it theyll be a party of government, with statesmen telling us its a:ok to ship nuclear waste about the country on supertrains.

personally im disgusted at the greens stance on this issue.

by pat c Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:28

going rate for your type is as few feet of rope.

dont believe fingal cc lies.

by Ray Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:32

The waste collection statistics posted by 'Fingal Res' above leave out two important pieces of imformation.
1 - Between an 01 and Aug 03, green bins were distributed throughout the Fingal area. This is an alternative reason for the reduction in waste collected.
2 - In the period Jan to Aug 03, when the amount of waste collected was lower than two years previously, the council trucks were collecting _all_ rubbish, whether or not a tag was attached. This means that cost _wasn't_ the reason for the reduction in waste collected.

Is that clear enough for you? The reduction was due to the alternatives provided, not the charges.

by . Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:59

Conor Lenihan TD
http://www.fiannafail.ie/breaking_news.php4?id=2300
John Curran TD
http://www.fiannafail.ie/breaking_news.php4?id=2298

by Terry Thu Oct 16, 2003 13:37

Nice one Niall,

>If the people of Ireland do not take more responsibility for our waste by reducing, reusing and recycling we will all lose out in the longer term.

It's amazing how the whole issue of the waste crisis and lack of recycling is blamed on the people. Not a mention of the structural conditions of the economy and the role of big business and large corporations!

The central issue here is there is no levy on excessive packaging. Why, no mention of that?

The other is the totally inadequate recycling infrastructure. There are still tens of thousands of households in Dublin without Green Bins.

Where's the recycling facilities for plastic bottles?

And the success in Galway is less to do with the government and more to do with the heroic efforts of local environmental groups. If this was really about blaming people, how come the recycling rate is so much higher in Galway. Is human nature different in Galway to Dublin? I don't think so. I think the difference is due to infrastructure. Think how much lower the values would be if the excessive packaging issue could be dealth with for once and for all.

by galway resident Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:01

more environmentally advanced countries such has germany have waste charges and hey presto they have functioning and integrated waste management systems. No griping and no protests. Does it say something about the Irish attitude to waste or more specifically a Dublin attitude waste?

by Ray Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:07

More advanced countries such as Germany take more steps to reduce the production of non-recyclable waste, and to ease the collection of what can be recycled. Plastic containers, for example, are a major source of waste, and aren't collected in the green bins or most local bring centres. If the government was serious about reducing waste, it would put a tariff on such containers, so that companies would have to produce milk, washing-up liquid, soft drinks etc, etc in GLASS bottles, with a deposit paid on their return. This would have a major effect on the amount of dead waste produced, but its not going to happen because it targets the people who produce waste. The government isn't interested in that - they just want to soak PAYE workers for more.

by galway resident Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:16

I agree with you 100% but the infrastructure to deal with that costs money and the reason Germany can introduce those systems is because of the money paid to local authorities by the waste charges.

Some local centres do take plastics. Im not sure in Galway but i know for sure some in dublin do. They even have on the street bins that take plastics. Another thing might be is to ask local shops, health food shops or even the big shopping centres to introduce things like the Ecover cleaning product refil schemes. Its easy to do, you guarantee return custom, its cheaper for the consumer on second purchase and it reduces the amount of waste going into the bin. Simple. Our healthfood shop even has refills for jars of peanut butter etc.

by SDR Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:27

Looks to me as if the bin workers are being pressurised by management to cut corners. Time for a work-to-rule (if the unions can develope the backbone)

by Ray Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:28

When rates were abolished, they were replaced by a 1% increase on VAT. The money raised by this was to be returned to the local authorities in the form of an annual subvention. It hasn't.

We've paid for refuse collection, paid for bring centres, paid for the infrastructure needed for recycling. Now the government wants us to pay again.

Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with my point, which was that a government serious about waste would be placing a tariff on _companies_ that used non-recyclable packaging like plastic, instead of reusable materials like glass bottles, or recyclable paper and cardboard. Such a tariff would be self-funding (obviously), so the question of domestic bin charges doesn't arise.

by galway resident Thu Oct 16, 2003 14:39

that rate was set a long time ago and has proved insufficient over the decades. That insufficient amount is what directly has us in the position we are in now.

Industry does pay alot and there is similar rumblings in industrial sectors about the amout they pay for waste. They are calling for a cap on the incresing charges directed at them to protect the SME's. Remember most Irish business are very small and are on tight budgets etc. and if the large amount they already pay for waste is increased it may affect them badly. A little undefinitive but you have to see a balance somewhere.

by Ray Thu Oct 16, 2003 15:10

The 1% increase on VAT was supposed to go back to local government. It hasn't. The subvention hasn't kept pace with the increased VAT revenue over the last 25 years, because successive governments skimmed money off the top for central funds. If local governments received all the money they were due from central government, there would be no need for waste charges.

And businesses are the ones that have to change their ways. I have no choice about whether to buy washing-up liquid in a glass or plastic bottle, and so that is waste I have no choice but to put in the bin. Unilever is not a small business on a tight budget, and to pretend otherwise is laughable. They can afford to change their ways, and if they do that would have an immediate and dramatic effect on the amount of waste produced. The fact that the government has not even contemplated such a policy is proof of the shallowness of their 'commitment' to waste reduction.

by Niall ÓB - Greens Thu Oct 16, 2003 16:54

Niall
>If the people of Ireland do not take more responsibility for our waste by reducing, reusing and recycling we will all lose out in the longer term.

Terry
> It's amazing how the whole issue of the waste crisis and lack of recycling is blamed on the people. Not a mention of the structural conditions of the economy and the role of big business and large corporations!

Reply
It is a fact that the best recycling rates ever achieved in Ireland have been achieved in Galway City. It is precisely because the PEOPLE of Galway City decided to take responsibility that the whole dynamic changed and we were able to implement the recycling programme here.
If you seriously expect big business to sort out all your problems Terry, I suspect you'll be a long time waiting.

by random input Thu Oct 16, 2003 17:00

you'll be a long time waiting for a cleaner environment.

Or we could all just wait for forty years until the Greenies have a majority in the Dail. By which time Ireland will probably be submerged due to global warming.

by Joe Thu Oct 16, 2003 17:07

Say nasty things about business then da meeja says nasty things about you.

Say nasty things about Joe Soap and the media says nice things about you.

Think of the Green Party as a puppy and the Meeja as its master.

Roll over .. play dead ... etc etc

by Niall ÓB - Greens Thu Oct 16, 2003 17:39

Did I say not to challenge big business? No I did not.
Is Indavar big buisness? Yes it is.
Is Monsanto big business? Yes it is.

Who should do the challenging though. In my view it is the PEOPLE who should do the challenging, together with their public representatives.

Trying to pretend that it is a few guys in suits who create the whole waste problem in this country is patent nonsense.

It is a fact that the Irish produce more waste per capita than any other country in the EU. The average Irish person produces three times as much waste as the average Dutch person. Anyone who knows anything about Holland will be well aware that they are much more industrialised than we are in Ireland. Yet they are much more careful with their waste than we are.

It is up to all of us to deal with the waste problem not just a few guys in suits.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Thu Oct 16, 2003 17:46

>The Environmental Protection Agency said >household and commercial waste grew by over
>30pc in the past three years, while landfill >space is dwindling.

>Landfills in six of the 10 regions nationwide >have less than three years' capacity left.
>Every person in Ireland produces 700kg of waste >each year - over three times the Dutch rate.


Absolutely but 73% of landfill in Dublin is commercial - why do WE have to pay double for it?

And household waste was 1.5% of all waste so a 30% increase makes it 1.8% of the total- so why DO WE HAVE to pay for other peoples waste??

The massive take up on bottle banks, oxygen bins etc shows householders are delighted to recycle and reuse- I recyle about half every week -

BUT how can we reduce (the most important of the three) when the packaging is PUSHED on us by big bussiness who pay their "token schilling" to Repak and then fuck it all into land fill!

come on deal with the REAL STATISTICS !

angry conor

by lish Thu Oct 16, 2003 17:57

reckon personal responsibility & pressure for less packaging, more reuse & recycling, no incinerators & no privatisation need to be done simultaneously, no one tactic will work alone.
incidentally not sure about the recycling figures quoted, they're from before the green bins. anyone know for sure if the paper & bottles are recycled & where?

by Terry Thu Oct 16, 2003 18:13

Nope, you are right I don't think we should wait around for big business to solve our problems. But we must accept the playing field is not a level one either.

And exactly people in Galway applied the pressure that produced the money to get the recycling infrastructure in place. Indeed I hear the government attempted to sabotage this by dragging their heels. Since that time though the power to make decisions regarding all issues concerning waste including recycling has been taken away from the councillors and handed over to the council chairman and other bodies and people closer to central government. To some extent, yes the people of Galway have been ahead and more organised. I would accept that, although I don't know the full extent of attempts by various voluntary groups and individuals to do the same thing in Dublin.

In Dublin, because the stakes are much higher, the government are much more resistant to the people producing a successful and workable solution.

But again I stress the issue of excessive packaging is keen, and unfortunately only the government has the power to legislate here.

I suspect the government didn't pay to much attention to Galway and assumed it would fail, but they can't and couldn't let a workable environmental solution happen in Dublin, otherwise the new waste and incinerator industry was at stake.

by Niall ÓB - Greens Thu Oct 16, 2003 18:17

> household waste was 1.5% of all waste.

This figure is grossly misleading. It includes agricultural waste that goes nowhere near landfills.

The figure for household waste as a percentage of all waste going to landfill varies from about 30% to 60% by region. In Galway City it is just below 50%.

As for how to reduce waste it is very simple. Here's a few tips.
1. Consume less.
2. Try to buy fresh produce instead of prepacked produce. Quite often it is cheaper.
3. Compost, if you can.
4. Recycle as much as possible.
5. Leave unnecessary packaging behind you at the time of purchase.
6. Choose products with less packaging. (eg. A bag of sugar rather than a box.)
7. Buy glass bottles instead of plastic ones.

by Ray Thu Oct 16, 2003 18:24

What decade are you living in? How many products do you know that offer the choice between glass and plastic? How many products are sold with a returnable deposit? How serious should we take a government's commitment to waste reduction when they do nothing to make sure that waste reducing choices are available to consumers? I compost and recycle much more than I throw out, but its very hard to reduce what's left because the alternatives simply aren't there.

by Terry Thu Oct 16, 2003 18:31

Niall you give good tips on recycling and I totally agree with them except for

1. Consume less. -It applies to the saintly aspect and guilt trip, yet all our advertising is encouraging the opposite

2. Try to buy fresh produce instead of prepacked produce. Quite often it is cheaper. -Not where I shop. Quite often the stuff with LESS packaging is actually more expensive.

3. Compost, if you can. -Fair enough.

4. Recycle as much as possible. -Yes, but given the inadequate facilities, but there is nothing in place for handling all those plastic bottles, even though as I have stated numerous times, one of the biggest plastic bottle recycling plants is located in Ireland. Many residents in Dublin are still without their green bins. And what about all those batteries which are toxic. No facilities. I have to pay to get into the dump to get rid of any old washing machine and the like. To recycle electronic goods which are extremely toxic, I have to pay a private company.

5. Leave unnecessary packaging behind you at the time of purchase. -Easier said then done sometimes.

6. Choose products with less packaging. (eg. A bag of sugar rather than a box.) Same as point 2.

7. Buy glass bottles instead of plastic ones. -I can't. Milk is sold in cartons and plasic bottles only. There are NO softdrinks in glass bottles anymore. The number of products which are available in glass and plastic bottles is minuscle.

It's all about the structural conditions that are the barriers to a better world. Yes we protest for these to be removed, but we are ignored.

by North Inner City Dub Thu Oct 16, 2003 18:38

1. I can't afford to consume any more and can't survive on less.
2. The north inner city is just overflowing with organic markets.
3. The demand for compost in the concrete spaces around here is enormous.
4. I do. Every week I trudge the 2 miles on foot with a bag of bottles and paper to the nearest bring centre (on the North Strand). Recently I discovered that due to a lack of recycling facilities, most of it is put into landfills anyway. I still do it, but this really pisses me off.
5. Yeah right, like you can really do that. The supermarkets around here make that really easy. So I'm supposed to spread my purchases all over the ground in the tiny packed area behind the checkouts and unwrap them all. For a start I'd get kicked out, secondly my things would get trampled on, thirdly I normally only have a half an hour free each week to go shopping and often miss even this and have to make do with takeaways.
6. I choose what I can afford and what provides the most nutrition. In my price range, there is no difference in the amount of packaging between products.
7. I do this when possible, but generally around here there is simply no choice in the matter.

But then again, I am obviously living in a different world to you, you patronising b****x.

by Patronising Green B****x Thu Oct 16, 2003 19:29

Hey mate, nobody said that life was going to be easy. I used to live in a flat in Dorset Street myself and I tried to practice what I preach. I still do.

1. Fair play to you for consuming as little as you can. A lot of people don't.
2. I used to go down to Moore St. to buy my fruit and veg. It was a lot cheaper than the stuff in Dunnes Stores.
3. I did say compost if you can. I couldn't when I lived in Dorset St.
4. Well done on your recycling efforts. The Government will use the figures against us if we don't at least make the effort.
5. Yeah you really can and I do.
6. Pass
7. There is choice. Have you ever tried the Dublin Food Co-op?

by Green Thu Oct 16, 2003 20:40

If we are serious about controling waste we must accept far more radical steps. There can be no doubt that a heavy tax will cut waste.
Could I suggest that we campaign for a 100euro tax on each and every bin (that would sort that)and then vote in a Green government.

by Dede Thu Oct 16, 2003 22:56

First of all the Green party will no longer get a vote off of me not even a preference. My first vote at 18 was for the green party who incidently at that time rode the wave of the support of the people for non violent direct action campaigns of environmental groups.


In response to "externalisation of costs" (yes the economists have a name for it)

May I suggest the following for consideration by the Anti Bin Tax Campaigns: a Mass shop and Drop
On an evening of Your Choosing bring the communities Shopping with markers and Bin bags. The Activists, like the boy scouts, can collect all the waste packaging at the Cash Desks at then present it to management.

With a good turn out it will illustrate the point... The People do Not Produce all the Waste.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:27

excellent idea dede - I'll suggest it at any meetings I'm at it did come upo before but was never tried - interesting protest idea

by . Sat Oct 18, 2003 13:14

This is indeed a great idea and it should become common practise for everyone
In future shoppers should leave bshind surplus and unnecessary wrapping in the shop where they buy the products!

by pasionaria Sat Oct 18, 2003 19:58

under the Litter Act, it is perfectly legal for a customer to leave packaging of the products purchased, in the shop.

i do it with all excess packaging.

by mr. dubious Sat Oct 18, 2003 21:28

By the "Litter Act" I presume you mean the "Litter Pollution Act" of 1997 which replaced the earlier Litter Act of 1982.

It's online at
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y1997.html

But what provision are you referring to ?

At first glance I can't find anything that would legally oblige retailers to accept the return of excess packaging.

Can anybody offer an opinion on this ?

It's not just an idle question because some people are claiming that they regularly leave excess packaging behind at the point of sale and others are claiming that this is not possible.

Therefore it would be interesting to know what the legal obligations on the retailers really are ...

by mr. dubious Sat Oct 18, 2003 21:36

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA10Y1996S29.html

But notice that the passage cited below says that the Minister *may* make regulations .....

Now does anybody know if in fact he has done so ..... ?????

**********************************************

Section 29 of the Waste Management Act of 1996

( 3 ) ( a ) The Minister may, after consultation with any Minister of the Government concerned, make regulations in relation to or for the purpose of the recovery of waste or a specified class or classes of waste, and any such class may be defined by reference to the manufacturing or industrial process or other activity giving rise to the waste concerned or to such other matters as the Minister thinks appropriate.

(4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3), regulations under this section may provide for all or any of the following matters—

[...]

( i ) requiring the owner or manager of a supermarket, service station or other sales outlet to provide, free of charge, specified facilities at such an outlet for the removal by customers of packaging from products or substances purchased by them at that outlet, and receptacles for the deposit of such packaging,

by binned Tue Oct 21, 2003 22:41

A stipulation that i noticed regarding companies who are signed up with Repak. I noticed in a shop in town that said a provision made under this act in relation to Repak meant that the shop didnt have to accept refuse in site.

Basically this Repak nonsense seems like a bit of a sham - as long as the company or shop pays money to repak for the provision of external waste facilities they can offload their responsibilities for the waste. mmmmmm