Sinn Fein say no war but the Class War : Call for a left alliance

by Niall Ó Brolcháin - Greenies Thu Sep 25, 2003 16:25

Myself and others have made the same call before. Real opposition is vital to a healthy democracy. We don't really have such a thing as genuine opposition at present except on a very small scale.

There is a window of opportunity at present and those on the broad left have an opportunity to sieze the moment. The problem is that we persist in sniping at those with whom we have most in common rather than concentrating our efforts on opposing the Government.

by pot, kettle and black Thu Sep 25, 2003 16:55

Are those the same shinners that have been found to have paid their bin tax in Monaghan and Kerry?

by black & white &green & red. - bringing Eire into the 21st century. Thu Sep 25, 2003 16:55

It's called the "kerry communists".
Long ago, even before Dick Spring had got his cap, there was an indignant PP in County Kerry who saw the first candidate of the oldest democratic party in the Irish State offer himself to the Kerrymen and Kerrywomen for election to the Dail.
The PP looked at his flock after the collection was taken, the organist slowly withdrew the stops and the homily began:
"Now many of us have noticed the new type of politics that is coming into Kerry, many of you have asked {¿what is socialism about?}, well I'll explain: socialism is like communism except that communists are like protestant socialists".
The organist played as the offertory procession reached the altar.

Now to many of our younger readers and collective members, this story will seem superflous, modern day Kerry and it's representatives have long ago left behind that type of thinking. But to our older and wiser shareholders in the collective a reminder of that sermon in the 1950s will bring not just a smile but more of the "protest".

by John Meehan Thu Sep 25, 2003 16:55

Sinn Féin deputy Caoimhín Ó Caoláin says :

"If we look again at Enda Kenny’s recent pronouncement in relation to benchmarking, how can the Labour Party be aligning itself with those views?".

Any call for a co-ordinated left/progressive platform is welcome - but why only mention the decaying right wing party Fine Gael?

There is a long tradition on the Irish left of explicitly opposing - in principle, and in advance (no woffle about a special conference after the election to decide policy please) - any coalition with any right wing party - the main right wing party in the 26 County State is called Fianna Fáil.

Parties that position themselves on the left - but fail to oppose coalition with all available right wing parties - are leaving the door open to coalition with Fianna Fáil.

Sinn Féin is doing this. Why be surprised?

Its leaders see nothing wrong with entering a coalition government with the extreme right parties like the DUP and UUP north of the border, as well as the SDLP.

In this respect the party led by Gerry Adams is no different from the Irish Labour Party, currently led by a former member of (one wing of) the republican movement, Pat Rabbitte.

Bury the hatchet Gerry and Pat - look forward to being in coalition together after the next 26 County General Election - probably in 2007. A suitable way to heal the Official/Provisional split in 1970.

by amused by it all Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:00

Yes it is the same crowd, though to be fair it is a privatised service and is very difficult not to pay if you are the only one in the county.

It is also the same Sinn Fein who takes 15,000 in two separate donations from Coca Cola. It is the same Sinn Fein that gets lots of money from the far right in the US (I know they are the Irish far right who have romantic notions and all of that but they are still on the right).

You see it simple. Sinn Fein are not on the left and don't really describe themselves as such, not to Coca Cola anyway. They are a party of the Irish people, they say and in the north they often talk in terms of being the largest Catholic party.

by pat c Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:00

The Greens also believe in coalition with right wing parties. The Green Party are in no position to claim to be left or even progressive given their taxation policies:

1. A Flat bin tax, a bincollector and a barrister pay the same rate.

2. A flat water tax, an accountant and a factory worker pay the same rate.

3. a flat rate of income tax, a green millionaire and an office worker pay the same %.

by uncle Joe Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:12

THere's something about nationalism and socialism that i dont trust.....

still faint farts never out pong a midden

yea!!! class war comrade

but i dont trust em greenies

by Niall OB - Greens Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:14

The Greens do not propose any such thing. Repeating it again and again does not make it true.

Where's your evidence?

by misterman. court jester. Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:35

It may be a technial grouping for electoral or representative purposes.
It may be a tactical list of candidates, (one may presume Fingal is safe for the Trotskyites).

Alternatively:
It may copy the emergent form of co-operation between political parties such as those of the main European post-Marxist socialist grouping and green "left of centre" and community non-heirarchial, "thinktank-nature" groupings. This certainly would offer it a wider basis for offering the "poor" and "concerned" citizens of Ireland a realisable future in Europe.

It will not be:
one party with one leader, one poster and one script-writer, one spin doctor, one sordid history, one filing cabinet of skeletons, (did we mention skeletons?), "one day out".

It most certainly will be supported by a large section of Irish-Americans and find strong support in "the right places".

It very possibly could be an example of the shareholders singing from the same general hymn book and still making those awful noises, but Mr God he hears us all.

It plausibly could be the product of many years work, and indeed by some be seen as horribly and perhaps machiavellian manipulation of the Bin Tax, but to make omelettes you have to break eggies.

by pat c Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:52

on your own website you support a bin tax wherby everyone pays the same rate regardless of income, you have defended that on several threads so has ciaran cuffe here on indymedia. your press release made it clear that your policy supported a bin tax based on weight refardless of income

Do you really have such contempt for indy readers that you think they wont remember what you said on other threads?

you admitted that the greens support a flat rate income tax, but you said that wasnt all of the greens economic policies.so what if you have a guaranteed basic income policy? michael smurfitt will be paying 15% income tax and clare daly would be paying 15% income tax under your policies.

Heres Patricia McKenna on water

"06.May.97


EU Commission Right To Query Scrapping Of Water Charges
The European Commission is quite correct to query why Ireland has decided to abolish domestic water charges, Green MEP Patricia Mc Kenna said today.

In a recent letter EU Commissioner for Regional Policy Monika Wulf Mathies told the Minister for Finance Mr Quinn that the decision breached the 'polluter pays' principle, one of the cornerstones of EU environmental policy. There would be nothing to deter consumers from wasting water if the charges were abolished, the Commissioner argued.

Ms Mc Kenna, whose party has proposed that metering should be introduced instead of the current regime, said: 'The Government has undertaken a political stunt, solely for short term electoral gain. It has taken a crude and uncreative approach to what has become a hot political issue.'"

from her own site. have the greens changed their position on water metering?

by Anonymous Thu Sep 25, 2003 17:59

Totally agree with SF's call for a "BROAD" alliance, among all left-wing political parties & independants (including Labour! - we must save them from the Blair route!) One where each individual party could remain an individual party, but co-operate with one another on both broad & specific issues against the FF/PD coalition.

With respect to FG, they are on their knees. A coalition like this should help wipe them out, force them to do some type of merger with FF, and win a lot of their votes over to the left.

Several discussions and calls for alliances have already taken place on Indymedia in the last few months:-

Building the left republican alternative:-

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60506&results_offset=520

This includes comments from some SF members on their coalition position with the right.

Call of a Socialist Block by the SWP:-

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60458&results_offset=560

This includes 114 comments and a lenghty comment at the end by the SP in Northern Ireland.

and

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=60460&results_offset=560

(same story, edited by Indymedia - but with different comments)

by Niall OB - Greens Thu Sep 25, 2003 18:18

I don't know where you get this 15% figure from Pat. We have never proposed a 15% tax for everyone. Mind you I suspect that most people in Ireland would be delighted to have their income tax reduced to 15%. This is certainly not part of our economics policy and never has been. Our economics policy is quite involved and includes Guaranteed Basic Income which you claim to support. Please refer to www.greenparty.ie for further details.

As to waste and water charges.
We have always been of the veiw that people should pay for usage of water over a certain threshold. This would mean that most people would pay little or nothing for their water, but that those who use excessive amounts of the stuff would be penalised.

As for waste we use the same principle, that those who produce little or no waste should pay little or nothing and that those who produce a lot should pay through the nose.

If you don't like these policies fair enough but to insist that they are flat rate is misleading.

Water metering is a long way off. However, water charges are paid currently through general taxation.

Can you honestly support the principle that people with private swimming pools and private golfcourses using sprinkler systems should be subsidised by those of us living in ordinary houses or appartments. That is currently the case.

by Janus Thu Sep 25, 2003 18:55

Firstly, it's vital that this debate take place and equally vital that Indymedia's usual suspects be barred from it if and when it takes place in the real world. If that's done there's a possibility of a reasonable discussion occuring. If the ignorant sectarianism already pervading this debate in an attempt to classify according to some idiot's kind to the purist Left was engaged in by actual activists in this discussion it would be very depressing.

Secondly, from reading the whole of O Caolain's statement, which takes plenty of digs at FF as well I might add, this really seems to be more a proposal for co-ordination and co-operation rather than anything so grand as an alliance. I think that's about as much as could be hoped for and I think something that's worth supporting.

Thirdly, as I think Niall pointed out, this isn't the first time the idea has been mooted. I think Seamus Healy came up with it first and has pushed it a little with support from Finian McGrath. The Shinners are the largest group to call for it so far though and that makes it interesting.

Lastly, I don't think this means peope have to sign up to policy positions they don't want to. It's not going to make the Green party oppose the Bin Charges, the Socialist Party support armed struggle or Labour oppose Social Partnership, but there is scope for the left of centre groupings, from social democrat to republican socialist to socialist to Trots to attack the Government from the Left while leaving FG to flounder.

by Anonymous Thu Sep 25, 2003 19:03

Another article & debate that appeared on Indymedia just a few months back.

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?id=49248&start=30

The above Labour TD had a letter published in the Irish Times calling for this alliance.

He quotes figures from an Irish Times/TNS mrbi opinion poll taken a few months back:-

"The poll confirms.....(that)....such an alliance .....would have a majority, even at this stage, over the Government parties (FF-PD 36 per cent, proposed Alliance 40 per cent approximately). The reduction of support for the right-wing parties (FF + FG + PD = 56 per cent) to just over half the electorate represents an historic shift in Irish politics."

by Anonymous Thu Sep 25, 2003 19:09

Excellent comments Janus, which I agree with.

I coincidentally posted the link to Seamus Healy's call for an Alliance (which included his letter published in the Irish Times) as you were posting your above comment : )

by Sinn Féin Thu Sep 25, 2003 19:11

Sinn Féin launch audit of Government's policies and call for closer co-operation among the Broad Left in opposition to the Thatcherisation of Ireland
A copy of the document is available here:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/1418

by watching public Thu Sep 25, 2003 19:11

Such a left wing 'union' would never work, if there was such a will it would have found a way by now.

although it would be amusing to watch

by road man. Thu Sep 25, 2003 19:15

wouldn't this be better placed as a comment to a previous article issued by Sinn Fein?

It had appeared that a certain concensus had been reached in indymedia that constant issuing of press statements especially those related to electioneering would be kept together.

OR are all the other parties to start pushing the historic call of IReland's oldest party for "unity" down the newswire?

It would only take 39 steps.
and we know there are about 39 press releases everyday.

perhaps http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=61300

Thing is once you have _space_ you really ought to know how to use it properly.
THe superflous kite flying gets deleted by the young folk in the editorial office.

by mé féin. Thu Sep 25, 2003 19:22

and the next article on the newswire will push James Connolly off the newswire!
Man
if he knew what you were up to today.

is this a sign of things to come?
are you going to be swamping the historic
21st century leftwing grouping?
are you?
are you going to be pushing into the Trotty heartlands of Fingal with your tales of prison woe?
you know the "concensus".
and anyway if micro spin doctors can write 300 words of kite flying shite you can come up with more than two lines.
you're paid for it.
aren't ye?

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Éireann Thu Sep 25, 2003 23:33 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

How can Provisional Sinn Féin (sic) call for an alliance with left wing parties, when they are not socialist themselves?!

They have already implemented privatisation within the education and health sector in th 6 counties. And many other actions by their ministers (for the crown) can hardly be deemed as socialist.

Maybe its a case of do as I say not as I do.

Also, sorry, who says the Labour party is socialist? When they were in power, what did they do that was so socialist..........?

by eoin mor Fri Sep 26, 2003 00:48

Um Tiocfaidh Armani - on the Fianna Eireann site some time back, didn't you say that you thought investment by American multinationals in Ireland was not only a good thing, but necessary? Am I correct in this? If so, how can you reconcile this with your professed socialism, or for that matter the stated policy of Republican Sinn Fein?

by pat c Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:08

Niall

the Green Party support a system of local charges where everybody pays the same amount regardless of income.

THAT IS A FLAT TAX. A GREEN PARTY MILLIONAIRE PAYS THE SAME AMOUNT PER KILO OR PER LITRE AS A BIN WORKER.

I may be incorreect on the % re the Greens Flat RAte Income Tax. But they have called for a flate rate tax on income.

by pat c Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:26

This is what John Gormley had to say about charges in his press release of 25/9/03:

""The Green Party has a different view to the Socialist Party on the question of Waste Management charges. We have always advocated a 'pay per weight' or 'pay per volume' charge. We welcome the fact that Minister Martin Cullen is at long last prepared to look at this as an option. "

In his statement while he said Joe & Clares sentence was excessive, he did not condemn the imprisoning of Joe & Clare

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Éireann Fri Sep 26, 2003 20:29 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

"Um Tiocfaidh Armani - on the Fianna Eireann site some time back, didn't you say that you thought investment by American multinationals in Ireland was not only a good thing, but necessary? Am I correct in this? If so, how can you reconcile this with your professed socialism, or for that matter the stated policy of Republican Sinn Fein?" - I believe in a gradual process to make ourselves non-dependant on them. But in the cold light of day, we are dependant on them at this present time, as are many of the working class that depend on them for employment.

That is the cold reality, and its very easy to sit at our PC, and shout a revolutionary cry to get rid of them, because if they all upped and left, where would that leave hundreds of thousands of people for employment? It would not be realistic. It will take time to rid ourselves of this anti-union foreign multinatonals, but we need to start a process first to sustain an Ireland without them, that my friend is reality. You seem to have nit picked what I previously said also mo chara. I stated I was not against foreign companies coming here, but not at having the rate of corporation tax lowered to suit them. And it made mandatory that the business be unionised. But I'm sure you missed that didn't you.......

But I am all for getting rid of them, but it will take time. I'm sure the 100,000's of people at this time that depend on them to make a living for their family would understand if they meet your demands and left tomorrow...

by Seamus - Republican Sinn Fein Sat Sep 27, 2003 21:33 mcridir at yahoo dot co dot uk

I would have thought that the priority for the Provisionals, would be to create a left-Republican alliance to end British imperialism, and achieve national unity and independence.

But silly me, the Provos now accept Leinster House and are themselves part of the political establishment in the 6 Counties. It was not that long ago that they tried to enter into an alliance with Fianna Fail, and were sent packing. They are neither republicans or socialists, just another Free State party, made up of poachers turned gamekeepers. Give it a few years, and they will have become no different from Fianna Fail. The trench coats have been shed in favour of armani suits. At least Republican Sinn Fein continues to perform the role of a national insurance policy.

by Real Sat Sep 27, 2003 22:21

Some "national insurance" you are. You can even be bothered to get yourself an irish email address.

Probably because Seamus you are James and writing the mail from Cheltenham.

Those dissitent republicans who are not stooges for the brits are the hoods that weren't let into the IRA. Disband now your a embarrasment and a liablity.

by Tiocfaidh Armani - Na Fianna Éireann Sun Sep 28, 2003 13:13 info at fiannaeireann dot com Dublin

That email address is that of the Francis Hughes Cumann of (Republican) Sinn Féin in Glasgow. So the fact it has a '.co.uk' address might well explain that...........