George Orwell Centenary

by pat c Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:36

The Road to Wigan Pier (Orwells journey through depression era England) and Down and Out In London and Paris (Orwells time as a Tramp)are still important social histories of the 30s.

by Erin go Brach Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:39

Didnt archives just released state that George Orwell was a collaborator with M I 5??

Was George a State puppet during World War II??

SWP???


AAAAAH, i see the tie together.

by IMC reader - SWP: anti-autoritarian my arse Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:44

Never mind, I am sure that the SWP cadre will take care to airbrush the historical details that don't conform to the party ideology.

by pat c Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:10

Orwell was anti Stalinist, he felt that certain writers were being used as puppets by Stalin to cover the mass slaughter of dissidents and destruction of democracy in Eastern Europe.

There was a Holocaust in the USSR as well you know.

by Mark Hewitt Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:22

Whilst not condoning Orwells actions, he needs to be placed in context. His books on the 'down and outs' are relevant today - Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich uses the same technique.

There is an interesting article in the Guardian by one of those named by Orwell to an MI5 agent. It locates Orwells actions with the bleak times he was operating in and suggests Orwells TB and justifiable bitterness over the Spanish Revolution 'clouded' his judgement.

by Lone gunman Tue Jun 24, 2003 13:22

Newspeak or
Lies are truth. Love is hate, or, war is peace?

by zud Tue Jun 24, 2003 13:30

look it up dufus

by john - personal view Tue Jun 24, 2003 16:54

Orwell provided a list of names to the establishment of "communists,pro-soviets, and fellow travellers". At the time the Brits were attempting to crack down on people campaigning against the cold-war and for detente.

As we have seen with some of the people (former Trots like Wolfowhatshisname) defending Bush's imperial designs. Their logic (quiet Stalinist) is the ends justify the means. Orwell believed the Stalinists were wrong and he became a stoogie for the British establishment to further this belief.

Can anyone explain why both 1984 and Animal Farm were on the secondary school criculum? Because the Dept of Education is controlled by Trots?

by pat c Tue Jun 24, 2003 17:05

But it would have been ok for him to openly name these people as Stalinist Stooges. They were covering up the muder of millions of dissidents.

Or have we now got a new type of Holocaust denial?

Are there really people out there who pretend that millions did not die in the gulags? Perhaps the gulags were holiday camps?

by Sean O'Callighan - rat Tue Jun 24, 2003 17:09

Im surprised at Pat c fauning over Orwell. A tout by any other name is still a tout. It was unacceptable then and now. I don't care if he was having a bad hair day, his piles were giving him gip or he was depressed. He provided info (ratted) to the establishment therefore he became a usefull fool in the interests of British Imperialism. I disagree with republican paramilitaries on their politics, strategy and tactics, does that give me the right to inform on them?

by Andrew Tue Jun 24, 2003 17:14

Animal farm isn't actually a trot analysis of the USSR as is sometimes claimed. The trot pig (Snowball?) actually goes along with the other pigs in securing special privileges for themselves (eg needing the apples as 'brain food'). He later falls fowl (sic) of the system of 'pig (party) rule' he has helped to create.

by pat c Tue Jun 24, 2003 17:18

These people were covering up mass murder and were assisting in the betrayal of liberation struggles through out the world. Stalin betrayed the Greek Revolution because he feared he would have another Yugoslavia on his hands.

Remember he also wanted Mao to reach a compromise with Chiang.

I still think Orwell was wrong in the way he went about it, but he was no tout. He wanted a democratic socialism he realised that was impossioble under Stalinism and he reckoned Social Democracy gave him and other democratic socialists the space to live and advance their politics. Hence his devils deal.

It is worth noting, thsat trots of all sorts. SP or SWP variety or Anarchists or any sort of opposition socialists would have went to the death camps under a British Stalinist Puppet Soviet government.

by truth Tue Jun 24, 2003 17:38

its interesting to see the SWP present Orwell as an hero when a man himself would have been hated their actions in the anti war movement as a whole. Orwell was repulsed by the way the stalinists held back the revolution in spain. not drawing parallels between the anti war movement and revolution the SWP stopped the movement going on further by trying to
1 Stop people going through fence in Shannon

2 Despersing a crowd at on Day X outside the Dail as they had nothing planned and were afraid the movement would move beyond speeches and past a recruiting agency whjere peole might think and act for themselves

3Condemning direct action proposed by the GNAW
planned for march the first

4Constantly conpromising with the police on tactics

this seems more like stalinism than the actions of the POUM which Orwell supported

by Davy Carlin - W/Belfast SWP Tue Jun 24, 2003 18:00 carlindavid at hotmail dot com

And there was me just about to advertise a public meeting.

by pat c Tue Jun 24, 2003 18:02

At least people are reading the piece.

by Amused - None Tue Jun 24, 2003 19:39

Swp Having a chat about orwells politics.

Jesus!

Im sure the old man is having a laugh at the good of it all in his grave!

by Revisionist Tue Jun 24, 2003 19:54

Pat says:These people were covering up mass murder and were assisting in the betrayal of liberation struggles through out the world. Stalin betrayed the Greek Revolution because he feared he would have another Yugoslavia on his hands.

Comment
No arguments Pat. we all know our history. Stalin alsobetrayed Tito, Malaysian and Burmese communists.

Pat c:
Remember he also wanted Mao to reach a compromise with Chiang.
Comment
Yes but that (I think) was during the "popular front" strategy of the CPSU and the comintern. It worked in some instances and was a disaster in others. The lesson was that comintern strategies couldn't be the solution to problems that varied from conntry to country.

PC
I still think Orwell was wrong in the way he went about it, but he was no tout.

comment
What is your defination of a tout. Say a republican "dissident" had info on the PIRA, would his/her disallusionment with the PIRA make it ok for him to provide a list of members to embarris SF and thus impact on their growth in popularity?

PC-He wanted a democratic socialism he realised that was impossioble under Stalinism and he reckoned Social Democracy gave him and other democratic socialists the space to live and advance their politics. Hence his devils deal.

Comment
Aye, social democracy will always give socialists the space to live once they are an insignificant force. As soon as socialists threaten to take power they will be crushed by the state.

PC-It is worth noting, thsat trots of all sorts. SP or SWP variety or Anarchists or any sort of opposition socialists would have went to the death camps under a British Stalinist Puppet Soviet government.

Comment
True. But is the world a better place for the collapse of the 'Stalinist' USSR? Would US Imperialism be running amok in the world today?

Finally, I think you have overlooked one point. Check the names that Orwell provided. Many of them had very tenious links with the CPGB or the USSR. Orwell was participating in a process similar to McCarthy in the US. Fuck him.

by pat c Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:07

All Orwell did was supply a list of writers which he believed were stooges for Stalin. He reccomended that these people should not be employed by the BBC on this basis. Not nice. But not at all as bad as covering up for mass murder and gulags in the USSR & Eastern europe.

Do I think that its a good thing thathundreds of millions of people no longer live under Stalinist Dictatorships? YES!

Do I want capitalism overthrown? YES!

by Magneto Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:35

Under Social Democracy and Liberal Capitalist Democracy all kinds of Leninist and Anarchists can organise 'freely'. Now free is relative, but you dont get dragged of to a Gulag just because you disagree with the party line. You can also publish papers which call for the destruction of the capitalist system.

Anyone who even called for a Political Revolution in the USSR at best faced time in a Psychiatric Hospital (funny how the SP allege their critics are mad). Death through maltratment or overwork in a Gulag was a distinct possibility up until the days of Gorbnachev.

I feel a lot safer living under capitalism than I would under a Leninist Government. I still want to displace it though and I think the SSP are showing a way to a true Democratic Socialism.

Given the way Orwell was treated in Spain, shot, hunted through the streets like an animal by Stalinists. AND ALL BECAUSE HE WAS DEFENDING THE REVOLUTION, its hardly surprising that he would antagonistic towards Stalins Cheerleaders.

by iosaf Fri Jun 27, 2003 23:16

23rd of June.(1912-1954)
A mathematician whose imagination and thoughts of zero, Leibniz and binary laid the foundation for computers as we know them.
so that we all may reflect on how "Orwellian" it is all.

by bernie bird Sat Jun 28, 2003 00:46

Forgotten what Orwell gave us?
Here was a man who was compelled to create a legacy in writing- he is unarguably the greatest social commentator of the 20 C. He gave us a new language and a new form of political discourse and awareness. Though historical revisionism is always necessary, allow me to check it here in this forum, as it seems it has drifted from the basic truths. Every mans life has its contradictions...
Speaking of revisionism... what of our Roger Casement? Any further news on a monument for our first 'Geldof'?
b

by the ghost of sir roger Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:25

How the Brits treated Sir Roger after his arrest .... shades of Guantanamo Bay ......


When visits were finally permitted, the visitor was horrified to find the state that Casement was in:

He was not allowed the opportunity to wash or shave;
He was locked up in a very dark cell, so much so that he started to lose his vision;
He stuttered while he spoke. This could possibly be as a direct result of prolonged isolation;
Untreated wounds were left to grow infectious on his person;
He was not allowed to keep his belt or shoe laces and so he had to hold up his trousers to avoid further embarrassment;
He was still in the clothes that he was arrested in and the smell of them was said to be unbearable;
He was not allowed out for exercise;
His cell was infested with vermin.


http://www.ulst.ac.uk/thisisland/modules/ww1/casearrest.html

by bernie bird Mon Jun 30, 2003 00:24

...and he was selectively blotted out of history because he was gay...