Names of TDs who voted

by Mick Fri Mar 21, 2003 17:46

If I understand what is said above about pairing, 4 votes against the government resolution were lost because 2 FF TD's wouldn't vote against their party? Surely the pairing system is intended where someone can't make it to a vote for a very good reason (hospital, family death etc), then someone who was going to vote the OPPOSITE would pass. It just shows to me that FG had no intention of threatening the government vote, that they truly agree with the Shannon stopover (not that I ever doubted it but their apparent opposition might have tricked a few naive ones).
Time to disrupt the economy. Blockades on roads, petrol stations, Shannon warport, etc

by Dave Mc - None Fri Mar 21, 2003 17:52 dbigmcenerny at eircom dot net

Pairing my god i never knew the cosy cartel between FF and FG was that close. It is quite a ridiclous chummy system they have there. Good to Greens and SF for being against this. Hope you don't forget your routes when, after your principled stand against the war, your parties become more popular.

"Kick over the Statues"

Hey lets try and red paint all the tds this over the next week, they are like sitting ducks in their local clinics.

Well?

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Fri Mar 21, 2003 17:58 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

In theory, pairing is only supposed to happen for serious issues like medical emergencys or funerals or whatever. In practice, if a FF TD wants to make a constituency event but is supposed to be present for a vote, he can find a FG TD to pair so they both stay away and since each side loses one vote the 'balance' is maintained. I understand they have a similar system in Britain.

In regard to the FG votes, some FG TDs had indicated they would have difficult supporting their party line and supported the continued use of Shannon, John Deasy for example, who was also not present to vote.

The votes are basically, pointless, because of the pairing system the result is a foregone conclusion on both sides and everyone goes through the motions

by FourWinds Fri Mar 21, 2003 18:20

... no one in Britain has ever heard of it!

If this goes on then it's *very* hush hush. I shall ask around.

by bakunin Fri Mar 21, 2003 18:40

"The votes are basically, pointless, because of the pairing system the result is a foregone conclusion on both sides and everyone goes through the motions."

I see that the penny is staring to drop .... you are beginning to see how "parliamentary democracy" works ....

by Oisin Kelly - SP Fri Mar 21, 2003 20:17

I think that it's disgraceful that Labour and the Greens would not support the amendment calling on self-determination for the Kurdish people. It just shows how swayed the Greens and Labour are by bourgeois argument about upholding the territory of Iraq.

Just a correction on Justin's original posting. Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins voted for that amendment. The Socialist Party fully supports the right of the Kurdish people to self-determination.

by FourWinds Fri Mar 21, 2003 21:47

Pairing really does happen in Britain!

You live and learn.

by kev Fri Mar 21, 2003 22:21

http://www.socialistparty.net/press/debateshannonamendment.htm

and some recent relevant press statements

Government Motion on Iraq: Monumental Hypocrisy and Utter Moral Delinquency Determines Government's Stand

http://www.socialistparty.net/press/pressshannonmotion1.htm

and

Government is "gutless, spineless and destitute of moral conviction" in Face of an Invasion of Iraq

http://www.socialistparty.net/press/pressshannonmotion2.htm

by Intransigent Sat Mar 22, 2003 02:38

yes you liberal fuckers the time for peaceful protest has ended...mass civil disobedience and if needs be anarchists go smash us a McD's

by Simon Sat Mar 22, 2003 14:17 Co. Clare

Oisin Kelly, It is not as simple as supporting Kurdish self-determination or not. As far as I understand it, The leadership of the two Kurdish controled autonomous areas in Northern Iraq are not looking for independance. They are looking for autonomy in a new democratic Iraq. If the Kurdish people said quite clearly that they wanted independance then I'm sure that The Green Party and Labour would support it.

by Simon Sat Mar 22, 2003 14:36 Co. Clare

Here is an excerpt from a joint statement made by The Kurdistan Democratic Party and The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan on March 2nd last:

"The unity of the Iraqi Kurdistan Forces, under the JHL, will consolidate and strengthen the unity of the Iraqi opposition forces that aspire to end dictatorship and establish a democratic, pluralistic federal system in Iraq."

Here is the full statement on the KDP website:
http://www.kdp.pp.se/press/030303.htm

by OK - SP Sun Mar 23, 2003 00:53

Simon, why dont you look up "self-determination" in the dictionary. If the Kurdish people voted to have autonomous regions in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Iran then THAT IS SELF DETERMINATION!

Likewise, if they decided to have an independent state, that is Self detemination

Self-determination does NOT equal Independence.

by OK - SP Sun Mar 23, 2003 00:54

The question also has to be asked whether or not 'Kurdish leaders' speak for their people.

Simon, now that Ireland's 'Leaders' are for war, does that not mean we are all for war?

by hunter Sun Mar 23, 2003 04:17

the real kurdish leaders i assume are those of the pkk marxist/leninist persuation, who advocate an independent kurdistan free from control by either iraq, turkey or the west.

mind you these are the same people that are rotting in turkish F-block jails in the name of anti-terrorism. fully supported by the freedom loving US/UK juntas.

can't wait til turkey get into the EU, soon we'll all be adopting the 'turkish principles'. (aka the british principles of the 1970s).

new EU constitution: down with dissent - kill all hippies - if leftists like the gulags so much them lets send them there (and of course - war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignornance is strenght). the bosses untied will never be defeated!

by Simon Sun Mar 23, 2003 12:35 Co. Clare

OK -SP. I take your point that self-determination can mean anything. Therefore the motion could have meant a number of things and should not have been put to a Dail vote. It is not a black and white situation and we should be careful not to dabble. If Kurdish people want independance I am all for it but they themselves know that they have to play politics just to survive. They have Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran all breathing down their necks.

Kurdish leaders may or may not represent their peoples, that is true. But what right have we to represent them or tell them how to run their affairs ? That is excatly how the U.S./Bush Junta are behaving.

by Kalid Farouk - SP Sun Mar 23, 2003 19:13

Simon self determination is quite a precise thing. It means that a nation have the right choose their own destiny whether that be full independence or in some form of federation. Why don't the Greens support the right of the Kurds if they wish to become an independent nation?

by Angrie Activist Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:01

For Ireland. They want the Union Jack flying over the Dail again. They want a 'Socialist' Federation of the British Isles.

by Simon Mon Mar 24, 2003 15:43 Co. Clare

Dear Kalid,

I am sure that they would. I do, if thats what they want.

by %-) $=€ Mon Mar 22, 2004 16:30

it was a distraction.
a red herring you might say.
one year on,


-did they vote with their conscience?

Will the Irish people vote with theirs?

by ~¿$=€? Mon Mar 22, 2004 16:33

and make it simple.
their names:-
Tá

Ahern, Bertie.
Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.
Andrews, Barry.
Ardagh, Seán.
Brady, Johnny.
Brady, Martin.
Breen, James.
Brennan, Seamus.
Browne, John.
Callanan, Joe.
Callely, Ivor.
Carey, Pat.
Carty, John.
Cassidy, Donie.
Collins, Michael.
Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
Coughlan, Mary.
Cowen, Brian.
Cregan, John.
Cullen, Martin.
Curran, John.
de Valera, Síle.
Dempsey, Tony.
Dennehy, John.
Devins, Jimmy.
Ellis, John.
Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
Fleming, Seán.
Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
Glennon, Jim.
Grealish, Noel.
Hanafin, Mary.
Harney, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.
Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.
Keaveney, Cecilia.
Kelleher, Billy.
Killeen, Tony.
Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Tom.
Lenihan, Conor.
McCreevy, Charlie.
McDaid, James.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
Martin, Micheál.
Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Donal.
Moynihan, Michael.
Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M. J.
Ó Cuív, Éamon.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O'Connor, Charlie.
O'Dea, Willie.
O'Donnell, Liz.
O'Donoghue, John.
O'Keeffe, Batt.
O'Keeffe, Ned.
O'Malley, Fiona.
O'Malley, Tim.
Power, Peter.
Power, Seán.
Roche, Dick.
Ryan, Eoin.
Sexton, Mae.
Smith, Brendan.
Smith, Michael.
Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Dan.
Wallace, Mary.
Walsh, Joe.
Wilkinson, Ollie.
Woods, Michael.
Wright, G. V.

Will the Irish People vote with their conscience?

The men and women above have been rewarded with more than 30,000€ each in the last year minimum which is the salary they draw from the State. Indeed many have enjoyed more, much much more.