APOLOGY

by Dave Sat Dec 14, 2002 14:27

Might I suggest that you in future abstain from such hypocritical stunts and become permanent residents of the stables. BTW give my regards to Noonan when you see him, hope there are no homeless in Dooradoyle.

by Phil Giggins Sat Dec 14, 2002 14:33

Give them a break! A group of people fundraise and look at the shit everyone is giving them. All I can say is fair play to ye, its so easy to give out. Typical Ireland. Knock em them when you get the chance. Fair play, more of the same.

by blisset Sat Dec 14, 2002 14:42

means that rack-renting landlords - paid by the state (taxpayers) throgh health board cheques to house the disadvantaged - are actually forced to pay tax on their rental income.

This will not happen with FG FF PD as they represent an unholy alliance of those with an interest in the rental market - Cops (most own second houses) - Builders - TD's - Property Developers - Banks - Investors (Those who can afford a clutch of houses to squeeze the young with)

That would raise a damn sight more cash - FG Youth (aren't yiz a bit too proud of your age) sleeping for a night on the streets and raising whatever is nothing but a publicity stunt and a salve to the consciences of the many munny grubby landlords represented by the party -

The money collected would pay for a one bedroom flat for 3 months tops for one homeless single mother and kids in Dublin. Now how's that for solving problems. Why not take the money out of yr own pockets and spend the night thinking of a way to ensure that landlords pay tax and that that tax goes into the construction of social housing.

do I hear the sound of a modem being unplugged yet

and by the way the above item is not news - it is a comment and should be under the previous story

by Patrick Goats Sat Dec 14, 2002 15:13

What is it with this forum! Congradulations for raising the money. Yeah there is a lot of things that are wrong in our society with landlords, capitalism and what have you. These guys though raised money, a lot too, give them a bit of credit for it. While we are at it, can we blame these YOung Fine Gaelers for the Roy Keane affair, the weather, the loss of the European Championships in 2008, for Christmas day falling on a wednesday. Come on like!

by iosaf Sat Dec 14, 2002 15:34

& I shall do that as always with wit, genius, careful use of words and superior political ability. [the "they don´t even deserve the blueshirts their forebears wore" was a most ingenious double-edged line don´t ye think.]

Young Fine Gael;
they have been welcomed to the forum.
They have raised money for the homeless in Limerick.
They have posted an article on indymedia.ireland to tell everyone about it.

They have slept out avoiding study in exam times in the run-up to christmas, and surprise surprise they have been attacked (quite mildly) in this forum. They chose to do this good act under the agesis and publicise this good act under a party political banner, that of young Fine Gael.

Now if they posted the article, then they are familiar with how we carry out our debates.

And if they have chosen to join the youth wing of one of the largest rightwing political groupings in Europe then they have elected to develop their political philosohpy, tactics and careers within the clearly defined parameters of that european rightwing grouping.

And on the otherhand were it someone else who posted the information then they seek to make political capital from their politicised good deed.

They or those who would see fit to use them here in what is most definitely known as being a European political grouping in a very wide sense, also see fit to bring their politicisation of homelessness forward on the newswire.
oh well it´s the season is it not?
and in keeping with the noble Irish tradition of charades and parlour games I shall offer a reply on behalf of the european movement I made small reference to in my comments on the previous article. I shall entitle it "Zadik".
which is an arabic word meaning "charity".
I shall make use of our "forum" to present us all with some thoughts on the seasonal politicisation of homelessness, and "cynical young muppets", and those who would seek to manipulate their altruism and ambition [a most dangerous cocktail] at such a young age. This article "Zadik" shall be written by Punky Churchill, and shall appear over the next 48 hours, I must before just check how many times the European grouping that Young Fine Gael are a part of have seen fit to disegard thoughts on homelessness and rent arbritation and sqautter rights in this Europe.

and Paul S.

You shower of cynical muppets
by Paul S Fri, Dec 13 2002, 8:45pm
his his comment which now sits below my disdain at http://ireland.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=21561

you alledge that drug problems and alcoholism are often the root cause of homelessness?
I do presume you can point to a study to support that?
Play my game why not.

till "Zadik", YFG your lucky break is this...
Over the next few weeks we shall do our best to explain to you why you have chosen to politically activate in the wrong movement, we shall do this with some venom and much kindness, for it is "your eternal souls" that concern us.
that might have been a joke, but with jedi you never know.

The facts remain Paul, they or whomever wishes to use this space to publicise their deed did the deed as a political act.
We are not judging it on it´s merits.
We mostly do not believe in "meritocracy".
We are judging it on it´s political meaning.

by iosaf (don´t forget the incisive comments on other post) - because that´s one of the effects of Sat Dec 14, 2002 15:53 us at our dot net ing these issues in diverse places.

oh dearie me, dearie dearie dearie me.
by iosaf (watches the Limerick kite being flown elsewhere) Sat, Dec 14 2002, 2:47pm

I´m going to do my "D. Gageby bit" and provide you with a link to the updated debate on homelessness in Ireland , the politicisation of good deeds, and the worrying manipulation of our youth by abuse of their tender altruism and ambition.

oh and the questions, because all these good comments above now get forgotten as the debate is "moved" forward, [don´t you hate it how they try and "move" the debate forward?].

Oh Mr. Gageby.
what will we do with them?

oh yes the questions.

1. why no YFG policy or word on homelessness?
2. which hostel?
3. why the St. V. de P.?

they´ll do for the moment won´t they Mr Gageby?
yes, I rather think he´d agree with me.

I hear his voice now, "play on play on those noble parlour games".
He was a great fan of the fine islamic museum collection we boast in Ireland you know.

http://ireland.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=21561

now timing is everything is it not, so "Zadik" like "France" will wait a while, nice to know that YFG are looking forward to both.

by a person Sat Dec 14, 2002 15:54

€3345 is about three months rent for one of houses of one of the landlords that Fine Gael represents.

The policies implemented by FG/FF/PDs have resulted in spectaular increases in homelessness. Criticism of Young Fine Gael raising €3345 for the homless while at the same time supporting an ideology and system that causes and promotes it is entirely justified.

If Fine Gael gave a fuck about homelessness when they were in power they could have put a lot more into social housing, they could have taxed income from non-purpose built rental properties, they could have introduced rates for second homes, and a lot else. But they didn't because they reresent and thus care about the issues of landlords far more than the issues of the homeless.

I'm sure that the people who took part in this fund raising exercise mean well and find it difficult to understand the criticism on this page. But since they are part of Fine Gael their efforts are more about the hypocricy of that organisation than about the reality of homelesness.

Shame on Fine Gael (and on Fianna Fail and the PDs too).

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Sat Dec 14, 2002 15:56

Emm, just wondering, if possible could you list a set of criteria for those wishing to contribute to this forum. Like who can and who can not contribute. Obviously we are not welcome here.

By the way, thanks for clarifing what we are, most people say that they don't know what Fine Gael stand for. Now I know, thanks for that. We are the evil right wing people who are using the money raised to spike penny sweets with blue dye to brainwash kids to like the colour blue when they grow up. Yep thats it. Any money left over, we are going to get them big posters Stalin, Mussolini used for propaganda purposes for Enda. Oh but then again, thats the lefts forte. Emm.

Have a happy blue christmas and a merry blue year.

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:01

Father Russel Hostel
St. Vincent de Paul because they are going to help us spike the penny sweets with blue dye of course.

by another person Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:13

Why uses spiked blue sweets when you can use advertising and professional PR? Sure it's expensive, but that shouldn't be a problem for the interests that Fine Gael represents. Advertising is a much more effective and proven method of brainwashing than untested spiked blue sweets.

You should talk to your big business friends about it - they're experts.

by Patrick Goats Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:23

Spiked blue sweets, Good idea. What about changing the words of the nation athem from Sinn, a shin a fianna fail to fine gael? Sounds better.

Or once you get into government, changing all school uniforms to blue.

Or changing the colour of the national flag...

the possibilities. Blue is my favourite colour.

by blisset Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:23

just don't expect an easy ride - various shades of left green anarcho pascifist republican don't get an easy ride either.

Didn't like your YFG Nice poster much either which identified voters as male exclusively - remember that one 'Better inside than out' -

Puke UUUUUUUUURRRRRGGGGHHH!!

FG is a party of landlords and landowners and no amount shouting scrooge at those who point this out will change that reality

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:26

Actually the poster read, 'its better to be inside'

Various takes on it were, 'Nice girls say no' (!) and the best one ever was a 70+ FG member who informed us that the poster was stubid because if you think about it, only the man can be inside not the women!

Anyway!

by x Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:28

There are no criteria for those wishing to contribute to this forum (apart from no-spam and no personal abuse). It's a genuinely free, fair and open forum in which a wide variety of perspectives can engage. But is is understandable that this might come as a shock if you're not used to it.

It's not that you are not welcome here - but the dynamic is very different than that of the local golf club. Perhaps you might be more comfortable confining yourself to forums and social circles in which people see the world in a simlar way to yourself.

The anger at Fine Gael expressed on these pages is a result of Fine Gael's actions and priorities over the years. While people are more polite when you talk to them on their doorstep don't fool yourself that supporting wealth at the expense of society and the environment doesn't make your party pretty low on the human decency scale in the eyes of an increasing number of people (most of whom respond, unfortunately, by not voting).

Please don't take this personally though. I'm sure Finna Fail or the PDs are just as despised.

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:33

Ok, So one of the criteria I guess is that you should not play golf, be related to a landlord, keep it coming I'm compling a list here.

Golf! Come on, stop making persumptions on me and my friends who you have never met!

What food / drink should I not have? What colour should my hair be? I want to have the list finished by the end of the day. If you could help, it would be most appricated.

Thanx!

by Blisett Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:38

70+ FG member who informed us that the poster was stubid because if you think about it, only the man can be inside not the women

It was very very stupid

by Limerick1919 Sat Dec 14, 2002 17:05 limerick1919 at hotmail dot com

check the story below young fine gaelers and get out to dooradoyle and protest against this - an effort to stave off homelessness but not on my doorstep. O' malley should be ashamed of himself

snip of story
>>>>1000 sign against boy plan
By ALAN JACQUES

RESIDENTS in Dooradoyle have united to try and block a Galway based charity opening a residential care unit for young boys living at risk.>>>>>>

Where is Michael noonan when you need him

by x Sat Dec 14, 2002 17:57

I posted the above comment and I used the example of golf because I happen to play golf. I'm also related to a landlord, not that that has anything to do with anything.

Why are you making presumptions about me?

More importantly, why are you not commenting on the issue at hand - i.e. that Fine Gael and other establishment political parties consistantly support wealth and power at the expense of society and the environment? Is it because Fine Gael is paid for by wealth and power (especially when they're in government and can offer access and other benefits to their financial supporters)? Is it because of a genuine belief that increasing the wealth of the wealthest results in a better society for everybody (the "more money for me helps the poor" theory)? Or is it because they've just been absorbed into the Washington consensus and don't have any original ideas? And are fine Gael's reasons for supporting wealth and power over society and the environment the same as Fianna Fail and the PD's reasons for doing the same thing?

Like I said, there are no criteria for those wishing to contribute to this forum. Why not engage, contribute and discuss the IDEAS and ISSUES rather than sneering and whinging about imagined slights. By avoiding the (admittedly uncomfortable) issues you are coming across like your party collegues on the talk shows.

Fine Gael and other establishment political parties are dispised by many because of their policies, voting records and structural and systemic corruption, not because of 'presumptions' or issues related to sport.

by FG hater Sat Dec 14, 2002 20:02

Fine Gael is responsible for homelessness. They are a capitalist party, they support the privateering that is the 'house market'. They are the ones that have not built local authority homes, they are the ones that will not take on the specualtors. They are corrupt and they take money from corrupt speculators.

FF-FG-Lab-PD you and your capitalist friends are guilty for homelessness

by owen o duffy Sat Dec 14, 2002 21:31

We know all about you blueshirts raising money. Dennis O Brien was a big contributor to your party, and of course it was a mere co-incidence that he got the ESAT mobile licence against all expectations when you Blueshirts were last in government with Labour. You shits under Fuhrer Enda have even reversed your former leader Noonan's ban on sleasy donations from 'businessmen'

by Phuq Hedd Sat Dec 14, 2002 22:42

1. Read the VERY CLEAR instructions on the "Publish" link that you were presented with before you pushed the button:
Please use this form to contribute new stories and ideas. Comments belong with the story being discussed - to have your say in response to a story on the site, use the "add your comments" link at the bottom of each story.

Note, your current "apology" post is not a new story. It belongs under the "add your comments" to your previous post to the newswire.

2. Read the EDITORIAL GUIDLINES:
* being comments, not news - comments belong with the story being discussed - to have your say in response to a story on the site, use the "add your comments" link at the bottom of each story.

* duplicate posts - make sure you've read the newswire

* infactual or obviously false posts - the onus is on the author to check and confirm facts - if a factual error is brought to our attention it will be removed

* libelous or slanderous posts - choose your language carefully

* discriminatory or abusive posts

* advertising or other inappropriate content

Your current "apology" is a comment, not news. Your original post which boasted of giving back a minim of the money extorted from the working class to its most abused members could be construed to be an advertisement for YFG.

If you don't want to be criticized, don't post to the newswire. The SWP has a similar problem: maybe you could merge with them? (Oh, you could claim that we are censoring you if you like?)

by lina Sun Dec 15, 2002 02:21

"Fine Gael is responsible for homelessness. They are a capitalist party"

what a load of bollix.
the vast majority of homeless people grew up in care or have serious drink/drugs addictions.
I'm afraid you cannot blame everything on capitalism , much as you would like to.
I doubt any homeless person would be blaming their problem on the "capitalist state" and wished they lived in glorious communist north korea.

by Des Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:18

Sorry Lina, it's not a load of bollocks, it's reality. Fine Gael has been in Government on a number of occasions, what have they done to combat homelessness? NOTHING! this is not surprising given the fact their policies are in the interests of landlords, not the homeless. The policies of F.F. are no different. The practice of F.G. and F.F. and the so called Labour Party have been to hand out public funds to the current crop of Irish Rachmans and the Health Boards have even assured these Rachmans that they will assist them in tax avoidance. Re North Korea, I think you should concentrate on homelessness in dear old christian Irelanda before "worrying" about other countries.

by iosaf Sun Dec 15, 2002 14:55

why Vincent de Paul?
which hostel?
can YFG of their parents by now also on the bandwagon offer answers to these questions?

why was a "good act" politicised by a banner and youth wing of a trans-european right wing grouping?
if these youngsters (already older now than precocious little William Hague of their English sister party was when he thumped his little hands on the lectern) want to be involved in politics and want to be "altruistic and ambitious" then could their parents or could they answer those questions.

And to begin thinking of this whole two post thread debate as "kneejerk" left bashing of FG and their spawn shall unfortuantely be the undoing of FG and YFG in the future.

I with many many years of homelessness activism under my belt, am asking serious questions of those whom I accept on their word as being concerned at this issue.

I´m used to talking to "rightwing" elements in such discussions. I´m used to talking to "landlords" one of my best friends family are landlords of well swathes yes swathes of Ireland, Britain and Africa and have been for well a very long time.

But I so far have not seen any answers of substance.

Do YFG or the parents believe that St. V. de P. are the best agency to tackle the problems of either rough sleeping or homelessness?

& Which hostel recieved the money?

note I´m not excpecting an answer on how much the average income of a FG deputy is, coz my research resources answered that one days ago.

Now if the YFG / FG parents want to do themselves a favour, answer the questions.
We are mostly concentrating our efforts at the moment in South America and Gallizia, but hey the "other little rascals" could prove to be a nice new year meal.

so my disdain requires answers.
thank you so much.

by Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. - Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Sun Dec 15, 2002 17:27 Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless.

Em, I think this has been dealth with!

Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless. Father Russel Hostel for the Homeless.

by iosaf Sun Dec 15, 2002 20:24

well done you petulant ógras.
Now the Father Mathew Hostel is the one you have consistently as a party supported?

You have experienced a night on the streets.
sleeping rough.
And how petulant you are.
When you chose to read this website, and then to report your good work for the homeless and vulnerable here amongst the gibberish and plaintiff cries from around the world, I presume you were thinking of altruism, I presume you at some stage thought "what wou,d it be like to sleep rough all the time", "why are these passerbys so generous, "why are they so supportive", "why are some of them so rude", "this will up the profile of homelessness", "this will lead to a much needed debate between all people regardless of political party about these issues".
Didn´t you?
ISn´t that what you wanted?
Or did you think collecting an impressive amount of money, half the suggested "global justice annual income"[disobedienti day 2 Florence 2002][reported here by myself three days before]
would be enough?

No of course you didn´t. You knew that homelessness is something that lasts longer than one night on the street, for some it is a recurring pattern in life, for some a transitory phase, you will no doubt have learnt from the hostel staff that rough sleeping and hostel accomdation are only a tip of an iceberg of access to living space problems.

Well now you have weathered fire in the same space where wars, disinformation, terror and so many other evils are daily discussed.

Do you think you would enter into a debate at your university in the New Year to discuss how better homelessness may be dealt with in not only Limerick but the surrounding areas?

The hostel does it not provide beds to vulnerable members of our society drawn from near and far?

Thank you for your continued concentration on these issues on two news postings.

I am most impressed by your acumen.
but I do still think you are careerists.
I do not think Young Fine Gael can be that different in 2001.

by crap Sun Dec 15, 2002 21:47

"the vast majority of homeless people grew up in care or have serious drink/drugs addictions.
I'm afraid you cannot blame everything on capitalism"

Did you ever hear of alienation? People dont just turn to drugs for the sake of it. The drugs problem can only really be dealt with by attacking capitalism and it's alientation.

by King Mob Sun Dec 15, 2002 22:30

Fair play Young Fine Gael for raising €3345 for the homeless. Its great to see something different than the usual failed stalinist/marxist-leninist/trotskyite/anarcho-communist shite that usually spams and clogs up the Indymedia Ireland website. You see most of the dumb pricks who write on this site and this also applies to the IMC cabal who run this site as well are under the mistaken impression that this is a left wing site. Its not. Read the notice at the bottom of this page. It says quite clearly that "Indymedia is a collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth." It doesn't say Indymedia is a left wing site. Got that. I don't know how many times I've had to remind the dumb thicks here that. I look forward to many more contributions from Young Fine Gael, and Ogra Fianna Fail and the Young Progressive Democrats as well. One final thing. Young Fine Gael also know how to put the Euro (€) symbol on their Email unlike the dumb left wing stupos on this newswire. The Euro is now our currency and is going to remain our currency forever, not matter how much the failed left wingers has-beens wish that they still had their punt.

by Derek Sun Dec 15, 2002 23:24

I would not shoot off your mouth too much your majesty, remember the French Revolution, remember Robespierre, remember what happened to Marie Antoinette?

by Intransigent - makes his return Mon Dec 16, 2002 00:32

Hey King Mob must be great to finally have some real friends on this site that you can battle the evil forces of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Proudhon and co.
YFG great that you raised some money. Now it's time to progress and look at the root causes of the problem. No I'm not talking about alcholism, drug abuse etc. Yes that's right the system that breeds inequalities and promotes the activities which lead to people finding themselves in a situation in which they have nowhere to live. If you do not go beyond this starting point of raising the money, a step in the right direction, then this whole event was just a publicity stunt.
So YFG it's time to start applying pressure to senior FG and letting them know how the next generation of Fine Gaelers feel about the problem of homelessness. So it's time to push forward your policies in relation to the eradciation of homelessness. Or was that the eradication of the poor because they have no homes and are just causing the state an expense plus they clutter grafton st right?
Anyway at least King Mob loves you guys. And you are not the only people who are argued with on this forum. The SP/SWP/SF/Anarchist groups all have arguments with one another about how best to proceed. Though I must confess they are all mostly about ways in which the capitalist system will be removed/destroyed/smashed. I've often come up against the question "Show me one country where Socialism actually works?" Well YFG, show me one country where Capitalism actually works? Or are the blatant inequalities caused by this system all part of the objectives?

by King Mob Mon Dec 16, 2002 17:07

Pat/Paul whomever.

The imposter stuff returns....

How childish

by iosaf (monday and sober) - Marcos Colombia Berlusconi Mon Dec 16, 2002 18:53 barcelona

you´ve recieved abuse.
it´s great.
we get abuse all the time.
and we don´t have your budgets.
now be careful with the "blue jokes". we can make them but you really oughtn´t to, that´s very politically unwise, it would be like a SF person joking about kneecaping ye. wouldn´t be wise at all.
Now could ye persuade your friends FF and PD to post a charity "we aren´t that bad" seasonal article?
It´s just that we don´t get enough opportunity to abuse you so directly, and well it´s been a great christmas persent for loads of us.

And you are sincere aren´t you?
yes of course.
So will you agree to a debate on property prices / homelessness / rent allowance issues in the new year?
and say hello to your parents for us.
and I who started the blueshirt thing did say "you are not even worthy of the blueshirts your forebores wore when they fought Bob Doyle and his like".
I was making a reference to one of the international brigade volunteers of the Spanish Civil War, I wrote "not even worthy", that is a carefully constructed double edged phrase.
So wait a while before you giggle at it´s meaning.

You don´t really want to be worthy of those shirts do you?

And if you´re not, then you´ll bring the debate forward won´t you?
but if you just logged off and left the ragged band of mostly poor people who find political voice under the banners of Black/White/Red/Green on their own you would be worthy of the blue shirts would n´t you?

so when can we read a sentance on your website about homelessness?
and a real policy on drug addiction / family breakdown?
or do you think the current agencies and charities can sufficiently deal with these problems without reform?
if so then why bother sleeping rough to give them some cash?
just wondering.
and thank you for the 20 times Fr. Matt. I can see that clearly when I´m rushing, and I´m always rushing, all over the place me.