McDowell attacks Joe Higgins and Socialism in cuts debate

Monday November 25, 2002 16:00

by Finghin - Socialist Party

THE FOLLOWING debate took place in the Dail (20/11/02), between Joe Higgins, Socialist Party TD, and the Minister for Justice, Eqaulity & Law Reform, Michael McDowell (PDs). The debate was concerned with the proposed 'Government Estimates' cuts, but in typical fashion, the Minister avoided the questions and proceeded to hurl abuse at Deputy Higgins. The Minister also shows his lack of understanding of the differences between genuine Marxism and Stalinism.

Download the audio here http://www.geocities.com/newbridge_liberation_front/joehiggins20-11-02.mp3

Mr. J. Higgins: I welcome a delegation of striking fire-fighters from Northern Ireland to the Visitor's Gallery and express my solidarity and that of Irish workers and the Socialist Party with their just struggle.

The publication of the Estimates for public expenditure reveals an utterly discredited crew of politicians ruling this State and calling themselves a Government who have lied and cheated their way back into power and then with cynical callousness kicked in the teeth those who they duped into believing them. What a cast of characters we have had thrown up in the recent days since the publication of these Estimates. The Minister for Finance and his party leader have been widely labelled as cowboys, unfairly because there is no evidence that a majority of those who honesty herd cows for a living are chancers and cheats. Then we had the parade of the mighty mice roaring from the safety of the Fianna Fáil backbenches about the abolition of the first-time house buyer's grant. We heard their roars from Cork to Swords and beyond but come 7 p.m. this evening, which of the brave mice will come into this House and bell the McCreevy cat by voting in the lobbies against these draconian measures being introduced by the Government? Clearly, they will stick with their chunk of cheese and will be exposed - I welcome this - as fraudulent champions of young workers.

What about the Progressive Democrats? We know the Tánaiste believes working class people are some form of primitive life but what about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? His greatest achievement in recent times has been to climb ladders for Ireland during the general election campaign. He has no time to listen to the trauma of those who will endure his cuts; he is too busy hiring aeroplanes to deport a handful of people to Nigeria. How we wish the Minister would leave the few unfortunate asylum seekers here and take the plane to Nigeria and stay there.

These cuts coming at the first hint of economic slow down in national and international capitalism signal the beginning of an onslaught on the living standards of working people and the crucial public services on which they depend. For five years this Government has handed billions to speculators, big business, corporations and the wealthy in concessions and cuts in their taxes. It did not lift a finger as the obscene profiteering and speculation in housing doubled and trebled the price of a home putting it outside the reach of working people. What an outrage now that those who the Government kicks are the victims of the speculators rather than the speculators themselves. My call to working people, trade unionists, working class communities, students, youths and to those needing homes is, let us not lie down in front of it anymore - take to the streets, mobilise in open, visible opposition in the unions and communities to a Government which is determined to solve whatever crisis lies down the road on the backs of ordinary people while protecting its rich backers.

We will force back these draconian cuts and send the Government scurrying. We will expose its Members for the frauds they are.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): It is very entertaining to hear the incorruptible Deputy from the Socialist Party expostulating on the frauds of others. Let us remind ourselves of one thing - if the public knew the kind of society he really stands for, he would not even have his own seat. He has been peddling Marxist-Trotskyism for years dressed up as socialism. It is Communism with a pink bow tie. It is fair enough if he really believes in his demand that the workers should take to the streets and send the Government scurrying.

Mr. J. Higgins: Yes, and I will say it as well.

Mr. McDowell: He is doomed to the marginalisation that Trotskyism deserves.

Mr. J. Higgins: It is the Minister who is doomed.

Mr. McDowell: Marxism has been seen to fail the very people it pretends to protect. This is all cant about the working class. When Marxists had control of Europe they had to erect minefields and barbed wire fences to keep the workers in the paradises that turned out to be tyrannies.

Mr. J. Higgins: They were Stalinists, not Marxists.

Mr. McDowell: Whether they were Stalinist or Trotskyite the same thing applies. They are all Communists and the people are entitled to know that. If the Deputy stands up in the House to berate others for flying under false colours at elections, he should make it clear that he is a Communist. Why does he not tell his constituents that he wants to bring about Communism in Ireland?

Mr. J. Higgins: It is democratic socialism not Communism.

Mr. McDowell: No it is not. Socialism is the phrase that is frequently used to dress up Communism by people who are ashamed of what they really stand for.

Mr. J. Higgins: This is pathetic. Let us talk about the Estimates now.

Mr. McDowell: The Deputy is a fraud, if I may say so. He is a con man who has been peddling Communist politics under a false pretence for a long time. If he does not like the heat then he should get out of the kitchen. The Deputy can give it but he cannot take it. He is blustering away there pretending he is not a Communist.

Mr. J. Higgins: Let the Minister justify the cuts.

Mr. McDowell: I will yield in this debate if Deputy Higgins will stand up and say that he repudiates Communism and Marxism. He will not do it because he believes in it. That is what he stands for. I defer to nobody and particularly not to Deputy Higgins on a charge of fraudulent politics.

In the last election I stood clearly on a platform which had as its primary role the keeping of the finances of the country on a sound basis. Deputy Higgins was the first to say that I would stand for the kind of politics for which I stand. He was the first to go on platforms in his constituency and berate me and hold me up as an object of contempt because I wish to do what it takes to make this country successful.

Let us be clear about this. The Deputy is a Trotskyite and a Communist. I am not. That is the truth of the matter. I do not wish to hear Deputy Higgins going on about fraudulent politics, fraudulent labels and getting elected by fraud. If the Deputy actually told his constituents what he stands for, the kind of society he wants to create, the kind of society that people like him have created in the past, he would not even save his notional deposit.

Mr. J. Higgins: The Minister has said that three times. Let us hear about the cuts.

Mr. McDowell: I also want to deal with another contribution that was made by a Member of the technical group. It is important that it should be said, although it may not be the appropriate occasion on which to do it. I completely reject the shallow attack on the Lindsay report which was just delivered in this House. It was a well structured and careful report by a responsible and decent judge.

Mr. J. Higgins: Why did the Minister not come in and defend it when it was being debated?

Mr. McDowell: Because the Deputy and his friends so badly disrupted the debate that there was not time for me to speak.

Mr. J. Higgins: Rubbish. Talk about a fraudulent claim.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Order, please.

Mr. J. Higgins: There was loads of time.

Mr. McDowell: The Lindsay report which was referred to by Deputy Connolly is a model of clarity, concision and fairness. It is entirely faithful to the terms of reference which this House set for the tribunal. It is a sad day when politicians turn themselves into a lynch mob to turn on the Judiciary to whom they entrust serious inquiries . I completely reject the series of increasingly vindictive and thoughtless attacks on an honourable member of the Judiciary who presented to this House a careful, well balanced and proper report on a subject.

Mr. Connolly: It was not the woman's honour I attacked but the cost of the report at €23 million.

Mr. McDowell: I entirely reject and distance myself from that type of mealy mouthed lynch mob oratory to the effect that somehow she had let this House down. She most certainly did not and I will stand up for the rights of a judge who cannot defend herself in this House against ignorant criticism of the kind to which she has had to submit.

Mr. Connolly: We made the same comments two weeks ago and the Minister had the chance to say it then.

Mr. J. Higgins: The Minister is two weeks too late.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Order, please.

Mr. McDowell: I wish to deal briefly with some issues more relevant to this debate, the Estimates that are before the House. The Estimates will, in combination with the measures taken on budget day, approximate the growth in public spending to the growth in available revenue. Before the election, that is something which I said I would ensure happened. I, and my party, are clear that if revenue is available we will spend it. If it is not available we will not borrow in order to create the kind of economic mess that brought me into politics in the first place, the situation that existed in 1987 when the country's debt had doubled in five years. We were pictured on the front of The Economist magazine as the sick man of Europe and the IMF was going to come in to rescue us from the absolutely irresponsible politics that had brought us to our knees.

Unemployment stood at 250,000 and 19% of workers were without jobs. There were areas, particularly in Deputy Higgins' constituency, with 80% to 90% unemployment. There were no jobs and third generation unemployment was a fact in some houses. It is the policies of the Progressive Democrats in combination with Fianna Fáil that turned this country around and brought unemployment down to 4%.

Mr. J. Higgins: No way.

Mr. McDowell: The Deputy cannot take it.

Ms Lynch: The Minister warned us about Fianna Fáil before the election.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Please allow the Minister without interruption.

Mr. McDowell: In the course of the election, the Labour Party only wanted to raise taxes but it was afraid to say it. It suggested that it wanted to bring our tax rates up to the European average. Effectively, that meant that it wanted to double some rates of taxation and make our system of taxation the kind that has driven jobs out of central Europe. It wanted to undo all the work that had been done to make this country successful.

Ms Lynch: The Minister warned us about Fianna Fáil before the election.

Mr. McDowell: The Deputy will get her opportunity. It wanted to borrow left, right and centre to bring us back to where it really wants the country to be - in a state of economic failure - so that it can weep crocodile tears for that section of society it claims to protect. I believe social justice comes from giving people the chance to participate in the economic life of the country. I do not believe in socialist politics of human set-aside. I do not want to go back to a situation of 250,000 people out of work.

Ms Lynch: The Minister wants us all to work for a very low wage.