Intriguing debate on Greyhound Nuts, the leading Irish greyhound industry website

national | animal rights | opinion/analysis Wednesday September 14, 2011 12:08 by Anti hare coursing

The ICC (Irish Coursing Club) is tearing itself apart!

Hare coursing

The ICC, governing body of the sick so-called "sport" of live hare coursing in Ireland, is tearing itself apart overa whole plethora of issues, all of which have a bearing on the organisation's future.

The latest exchanges on Greyhound Nuts give a taste of just how bitter the infighting has become. GN is the leading website representing the Irish greyhound industry. It promoters hare coursing in every possible and mounts daily attacks on anyone who calls for protection of the unfortunate hares that used as live bait in this sick pastime.

Have a read of this:

(From "Greyhound Nuts" website)

« on: September 05, 2011, 09:21:14 AM »
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Any truth in the rumour that the DPP threw the latest case in which the ICC was involved in out of court pertaniing to the ex accountant? Or is it all gossip?

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jmb1

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Re: DPP

« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 09:33:38 AM »
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heard that the case against the former ceo and the accountant who got the sack was dismissed by the DPP. I guess we will be looking at another court case for wrongful dismissal now

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kerryside

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Re: DPP

« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 09:37:58 AM »
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Unfair dismissal, defamation of character, loss of earnings... €100k?

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BK

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Re: DPP

« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 09:57:46 AM »
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I am sure DANDEMAN will be along presently to tell us where this crusade went wrong.

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JOHN SCULLY

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Re: DPP

« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 10:11:01 AM »
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I don't think you need the DPP'S authority when you are letting an employee go for not doing his job properly. I stand open to correction but as far as I can recall there were two hearing with ICC executive members and both found in favour of dismissing him for what was admitted by him to them ie falsifying the ICC accounts at the request of the secretary of the day. IMO the ICC has no case to answer.

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larry duff

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Re: DPP

« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 10:23:47 AM »
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was this the case which the president referred to in his letter to some of the coursing clubs during his recent campaign in which i believe he attached a letter relating to this matter. So much for cleaning up matters.. looks like Mr President will have a few more days at the four gold mines defending us, his solicitors and barristers must be rubbing their hands at the prospect of another large pay day at the hands of the ICC. Like a prominent coursing man said to me at the weekend, 'Davis Road will definitely go this time'. I sincerely hope you are right John, but I'm sure Dandeman will give us a full report, he seems to be very clued in to matters of the ICC at the highest level

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JOHN SCULLY

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Re: DPP

« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 10:49:26 AM »
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From what I recall Larry again open to correction is that when the secretary of the day was being questioned by the Gardai he admitted to instructing the accountant to present the ICC accounts in a certain manner. The accountant did as requested even though it meant that in doing so he was not presenting a true picture of how things stood .As far as I aware accountants are told that if requested to falsify accounts by their employer they should refuse to do so and report it immediately to their association. This is just another example of the chicanery was going on behind the scenes during the time of the previous secretary when huge sums of money seemed to be moved around to cover losses in certain areas. We should have been hundreds of thousand in profit then but we were losing money unlike now when we are finally making healthy profit. The ICC are in their right to dismiss any employee who does not do his/her job properly and to do so there is a guideline that employers must follow. In this the ICC cannot be faulted and imo it is highly unlikely that this individual will resort to an unfair dismissal tribunal .

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Tom Brett

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Re: DPP

« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 11:09:12 AM »
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Does it not look as if there is no case as the former secretary passed away and so in Court cannot be cross examined..........

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 11:22:17 AM »
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My information was based on a rumour that the case against a former ICC accountant was thrown out of court, no mention about the late CEO who should be allowed to rest in peace.

True enough that employers often request that an accountant mix the numbers up a bit but every accountant is answerable to Revenue... so if an accountant did doctor the numbers surely he/she is guilty of fraud??? And if the DPP threw the case out of court, it would suggest there was no case to answer, therefore was it not a case of unfair dismissal?? I'm not a barrister nor do I have any legal training but I do have a good working knowledge of HR

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DANDEMAN

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Re: DPP

« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 11:56:58 AM »
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Larry,BK,Kerryside, you lads remind me of kids who cannot pass a puddle of water without jumping into it.You jump up and down untill you get shit up to your necks and then Mammy has to come and take you out and wipe your little faces and she tells you to have manners but you jump into the very next puddle and so on.Edmond,our ex-accountant admitted to the Gardai and the ICC that he falsified the accounts of the ICC.The fact that he says he acted on Gerry Desmonds instructions is no defence.He did wrong and admitted it,end of story.Now come out of that puddle lads because i think your Mammies are coming.Is the 76-46 result stuck in your throats?

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Re: DPP

« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 12:01:26 PM »
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Quote from: DANDEMAN on September 05, 2011, 11:56:58 AM

Larry,BK,Kerryside, you lads remind me of kids who cannot pass a puddle of water without jumping into it.You jump up and down untill you get shit up to your necks and then Mammy has to come and take you out and wipe your little faces and she tells you to have manners but you jump into the very next puddle and so on.Edmond,our ex-accountant admitted to the Gardai and the ICC that he falsified the accounts of the ICC.The fact that he says he acted on Gerry Desmonds instructions is no defence.He did wrong and admitted it,end of story.Now come out of that puddle lads because i think your Mammies are coming.Is the 76-46 result stuck in your throats?

Dandeman, if he admitted this then he will not be taking the ICC to court I would think. Do you know if he is not? Rumor has it that he is but again that is just rumor.

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Tom Brett

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Re: DPP

« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 12:28:51 PM »
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Malicious rumour as if he has admitted cooking the books to the Gardai then he is fcuked if he brings an unfair dismissal case IMO.

However I would think to be porosecuted the DPP would like to prove that he acted under his own initiative rather than under instruction from someone..........that to me is the crux of the issue......he shouldnt have done it but did it under instruction so while being fired was within the ICC's rights I would think prosecuting would be another matter entirely.................the fact that he is saying he did it under instruction of the former CEO would have got him off most likely.

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Re: DPP

« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 12:33:11 PM »
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Dandeman... as a greyhound owner and active member of a Club I am perfectly entitled to ask for clarification concernig an issue that could possibly cost the ICC money. As a greyhound owner every cent I spend in registering, naming etc of a greyhound goes straight into the ICC accounts. I am not a business owner, I do not pay for my dogs with a cheque book as I pay with cash, I pay taxes, PRSI etc and I dont have the luxury of putting greyhound expenses on a business account. My father is a pensioner and I'm sure he really doesn't want to be paying bills for the ICC either...but then I will let my father speak for himself just as others should do.

The recent presidential election has nothing to do with my attitude to coursing or the goings on of the ICC. I never canvassed for any candidate nor do I have a difficulty with Brian Divilly being president... I support him 100% as always... which Brian is well aware of. Perhaps you are being misfed information. Or perhaps some of those in authority within the ICC would rather that we lay down and shut up... Jumping in puddles is just that... jumping in puddles, I never worry about being in shit up to my neck, I just see the puddle for what it is... and at 42 years of age my mammy doesn't wipe my face anymore. Are you concerned about I being in shit or afraid of the shit I might stir up while jumping in the puddle???

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Re: DPP

« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2011, 13:02:48 PM »
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Dandeman, if he admitted this then he will not be taking the ICC to court I would think.
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This is how I also view it and the fact that he appeared before two ICC hearing committees and admitted falsifying the accounts on the instructions of the late secretary is no defence so the matter is now over..

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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2011, 13:21:57 PM »
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The question is though is it a defence to say that I was acting on the instruction of a third party? If that is/was the case sure we could all go around advocating that our employer or person we report to, instructed us to do something illegal and probelm solved. Surely it cannot be that simple?? I wish it was. Contrary to Dandeman's belief I'm not coming down on anyone in particular... I just dont want to see the small dog owner as he/she isn't making a cent from coursing paying the price for all of this. I want to see the money I pay for registrations, namings etc put to good use and utilised to bring coursing onwards and upwards. If there is no case to be answered to, then so be it, but why are we hearing rumours??? Why cant we hear it first hand...that way no one has cause to speculate... or maybe we should all go back to the old days when the ICC was made up of God only knows and the ordinary coursing owner who kept the show going couldn't give a flying fcuk what went on in Davis Rd. At this stage it makes more sense to me.

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Tom Brett

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Re: DPP

« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 14:57:09 PM »
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Do you think the man would go into a Court of Law knowing that Gardai are willing to appear as witness's against him?
He admitted it to the Gardai which fcuks up any case he might think of bringing against the ICC, do you think any Judge in the Country would find for a man that admits he went against his own professions ethics?

It is probably his professional accountancy body which the ICC would have to bring a case to TBH........
I would see a court of law giving him the benefit of the doubt on the grounds that he feared he would lose his position if he did not carry out the instructions he was given by a senior person within the ICC.......JMHO

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Unbelieveable that the UK's top dog trainers are such an honourable group, far more honourable than the Queens horse trainers.............

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Re: DPP

« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2011, 16:10:25 PM »
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I am not for one minute condoning what was done but perhaps someone can explain, if a man admitted to a crime then why has the case been dropped by the dpp ?? did the dpp give a reason for not pursuing this case, just curious. Have the ICC issues with the revenue, ie under declaration of tax, vat etc, or was this a case of creative accoutning or manipulating the books to show one arm of the group was performing better than another. Surely the auditors of the day signed off on these accounts, we are now over three years into investigations into the running of the ICC and to date, one employee has been dismissed following two ICC hearings. Fair enough, the three men at the top table have turned the ship around in terms of finances, but what other Business or Company has not done the same in recent times, in terms of down sizing, redunancies, more efficient work practices, less expenses etc etc. Any company that has not done this has simply gone out of business.

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Re: DPP

« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 16:42:34 PM »
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The new men took over an organisation that was losing money and was covering this up by instructing the accountant to falsify certain parts of the accounts for instance showing the sporting press as making a loss of 10.000 when in reality it was losing over 100,00 a year. The membership were kept in the dark on this and we even had the bizarre situation of a bank loan of over 350,000 arranged by the secretary and president which had been granted but not drawn down and which the president subsequently said he had no knowledge of. The reasons for this loan still remain clouded in secrecy. Suffice to say that between the secretary, president and accountant the whole organisation was going down hill fast and creative accounting was employed to put a nice face on the reality of things. The Garda investigation focused on the wrongdoings of the secretary which also implicated the accountant who did as he was told possibly to hold onto his job that was paying 150,000, a year a tidy sum in any man's book. It seems that you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours was the policy of the day.Spending members money for junkets to sunny South Africa on the guise of starting greyhound racing there where it is banned and returning without minutes of any meetings held or persons who attended and expecting the membership to swallow this line of BS was commonplace.
The accountant has got a lucky break because of events that have happened since he was dismissed and he is now able to pursue his career again although not in the employment of the ICC. He would IMO be a very foolish man not to avail of this and move on with his life remembering the lesson hard learned that no job is worth sacrificing your integrity for.

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DANDEMAN

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Re: DPP

« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 21:23:54 PM »
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IsITtrue that he also confessed to forging signatures on cheques made payable to himself?

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Tom Brett

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Re: DPP

« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2011, 21:48:04 PM »
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Quote from: DANDEMAN on September 07, 2011, 21:23:54 PM

IsITtrue that he also confessed to forging signatures on cheques made payable to himself?

If that is true then I expect there will be no case for unfair dismissal....................unless of course you are delusional

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Re: DPP

« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2011, 22:38:31 PM »
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Quote from: DANDEMAN on September 07, 2011, 21:23:54 PM

IsITtrue that he also confessed to forging signatures on cheques made payable to himself?

If he forged signatures wouldn't the DPP pursue the case?

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Tom Brett

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Re: DPP

« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2011, 22:48:59 PM »
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Would that not be a separate case?

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Re: DPP

« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 12:28:32 PM »
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Quote from: twirler on September 07, 2011, 22:38:31 PM

Quote from: DANDEMAN on September 07, 2011, 21:23:54 PM

IsITtrue that he also confessed to forging signatures on cheques made payable to himself?

If he forged signatures wouldn't the DPP pursue the case?

Not necessarely.