Crisis in the Peace Process?

by red sp Thu Aug 15, 2002 01:39

I can understand what the ogra logo means and where it comes from, and it looks quite good. But I think people from a prodestant background in NI will read something very very different from it. The petrol bomb as well as being a weapon of defence from the 60s today is a weapon primarily used to burn people out of their homes.
The problem with SF is they do not see this because they unfortunately aren't pursuing the republican goal of uniting catholic and prodestant. Rather they are about uniting notherern and southern catholics. The fact that a logo like this was used which lets face it will be nothing but offensive to prodestants, without even realising it is offensive, says alot.

by Paul Murphy - Socialist Youth Thu Aug 01, 2002 19:31 syucd at hotmail dot com

I respect the fact that both of you seem to be coming from a genuine position of wanting working class unity etc. and are not stooges of Sinn Fein, and recognise the negative divisive effects which the IRA's armed campaign have.
However, I also thing you are subconsciously influenced by your (probably, but I am only guessing here, so apologies if I'm wrong) nationalist backgrounds. You are absolutely right Pat C. that I support the rights of communities to defend themselves, be they Catholic or Protestant. I accept that a certain amount of attacks from both sides may be put down to defence. However, it is important that this defence is taken up by cross-community bodies, building working class unity against sectarian attacks.
I appreciate fully the nature of the State in Northern Ireland, but a very important factor is that the British government has admitted that it has wanted to withdraw since before the '60s from the North, but has been forced to say for fear of the movements that would be unleashed if it left. This changes things significantly, and means that the forces of the British state, while favouring the Unionists, are not doing this because of their political beliefts, but rather because it was the stronger camp to lean on to "Divide and rule" the working class. In the same manner, at a later stage the State may be willing to lean on the Republicans to divide the working class.
I do not deny the right of the Catholic population to arm itself whatsoever for defence against loyalist gangs. What I do oppose though is sectarian attacks from Catholics as well as Protestants. It is not true that all, or anywhere near all, attacks on Protestants are purely in self-defence. Sectarian attacks are attacks on the other community purely because it's the 'other' community. Catholics are capable of carrying these attacks out as much as Protestants are, and have done so. As far as I'm aware the figure for sectarian attacks by Republicans is around 1/3 of those by Loyalists, which is hardly one-way traffic.
Working class unity is the only solution to the troubles in the North, and will not be won by bending to Nationalism or Loyalism. As socialists we must oppose all sectarianism as counterproductive, whilst recognising the rights of communities to self-defence.

by Irony is dead Wed Jul 31, 2002 22:45

Unfortunately Paul you mirror the British (& Irish) Establishment view of sectarianism. Oh those thick paddies and their terror gangs - if they would only go away.
You negate the role of the state in creating and reinforcing sectarianism - the UDA were a joke until they were 'professionalised' by the state. Most of the sectarianism is organised by loyalism even if some nationalists respond in a similar way. That does not justify the methods of Sinn Fein or the IRA. It means by recognising the real roots of sectarianism all the better to challenge the limitations of nationalism.

by Andrew Wed Jul 31, 2002 16:38

Actually the The Pat Finucane Centre has been keeping a very good log of sectarian attacks on a month by month basis since mid 1999 (for the first six months of 1999 they were cataloging only attacks by loyalists on nationalists). You'll find these at the link below. An example of a nationalist attack is "May 3, Friday. In Derry, nationalist youths pelted Protestant homes in the Fountain estate with petrol bombs, stones and paint. Some of those involved were as young as six years old. The attacks were condemned by Sinn Féin. (DJ, LS, CW)".

by pat c Wed Jul 31, 2002 16:32

Paul i'm not a sf member & i don't have figures for sectarian attacks on protestants. the reason i suspect they are not available is because the number is a lot smaller.

it is also important to realise that incidents where catholics defend thselves from loyalist attack are not sectarian.

if blacks defend themselves against attacks by whites; would you describe their actions as racist?

i don't believe in elitist action either & i think any armed group should be accountable to the working class & take its lead from a political wing.

i also have to live in the real world: if it wasn't for the weapons held by republicans then loyalist mobs would ethnically cleanse large areas of the north.

by Paul Murphy - Socialist Youth Wed Jul 31, 2002 16:21 syucd at hotmail dot com

I'm sure I'm not the only one to be slightly amused by the idea of Sinn Fein organising a meeting on Crisis in the Peace Process. While I fully accept and condemn that more than 400 attacks have been carried out by Loyalists on Catholics in the last 14 weeks, I would ask for the figures for equivalent attacks on Protestants.
The sectarian violence is not one-way traffic, both sides of the community are under attack, and it is the working class Catholics and Protestants who lose out, not those in all of the sectarian parties who arrive at Stormont in chauffeur driven cars and have huge expense accounts.
Sinn Fein do care about the peace process, and are worried about a crisis in it, because if the Assembly collapses so do all their nice Ministerial salaries. However, they couldn't give a damn about ordinary people, like the term-time workers who Martin McGuinness refused to give decent pay to, despite SF's supposedly 'socialist' credentials. Again and again Sinn Fein betrays the ordinary Catholic people who vote for them, and try to turn attention away from themselves by whipping up sectarian violence. In no way am I saying that SF are fully responsible for the violence in the North, but the IRA, just like the UVF, UFF, UDA, and INLA all have a role to play in it.

by pat c Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:13

"The Lilly rises out of a petrol bomb, representing the youth of 1969 who defended nationalist areas of the north from a sustained loyalist and RUC pogrom. This pogrom led to one of the largest mass resettlements of people in Europe since the Second World War."

Good on ye comrade. This fact needs to be pointed out to the west brits who infest this site. they would rather ignore the suffering of the republican & nationalist people of the occupierd six counties.

and its not just the history of 70 yrs of unionist rule when catholics were denied one person, one vote; adequate housing; constutuencies were gerrymandered & the flying of the tricolour was a criminal offence. its also not just the pogroms of 68 - 70.

its the pogroms going on this very day. over the last 14 weeks loyalists have carried out more than 400 attacks on catholics.

by Den Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:16

As Sinn Fein becomes bigger in the south, you mark my words, the Sinn Fein Youth logo will change. Bet on it.

by Chris O Ralaigh - Ogra Shinn Fein Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:09 aprn32 at irlnet dot com

Ógra Shinn Féin response to Oisin Mac Giollamoir’s comments

Ógra Shinn Féins logo incorporates the Easter Lillie of 1916 representing the republican ideals of freedom, equality, and socialism. The Lilly rises out of a petrol bomb, representing the youth of 1969 who defended nationalist areas of the north from a sustained loyalist and RUC pogrom. This pogrom led to one of the largest mass resettlements of people in Europe since the Second World War.
Ógra’s logo depicts our revolutionary spirit and our determination to create a 32 county democratic socialist republic.

'We have no right to believe that freedom can be achieved without struggle'
Che Guevara

Chris Ó Rálaigh
Ógra Shinn Féin National PRO

by Justin - Sinn Fein Wed Jul 31, 2002 09:57 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Ográ Shinn Féin's logo is a petrol bomb out of which a green, white and orange, lily is appearing. It's difficult to tell in black and white. It's been the organisation's logo since it was founded back in 97 but every now and again establishment youth parties 'suddenly' notice it and get all shocked and horrified. About as horrified as I am at the idea of the party leadership drinking martinis and people going through their closets to find the elusive armani suits.

Justin

by pat c Wed Jul 31, 2002 09:13

well at least the youth wing use molotov cocktails rather than the dry martinis of the armani wearing saenior wing.

by Ois Mac Giollamoir Wed Jul 31, 2002 01:17

I saw posters up around town advertising this meeting and I looked closely at the Ógra Sinn Féin logo and what I saw was what looked like a petrol bomb! Fuck lads is this your logo? I mean whatever happened to your electoral "Suiochain"?