Extend the 67 Abortion Act - don't let local political parties off the hook

by flying pig Sat Oct 18, 2008 16:19

there isn't a flying pigs chance of that coming in-all the political parties are against it aswell as the catholic moral majority, until the northern irish stop feeling the need to be overly catholic to prove their irishness like the irishamericans are overly oirish the provision of abortion for social reasons would be way too taboo for the NI population to handle

by confused Sat Oct 18, 2008 17:07

In my school we were taught the the 6 counties are are part of ireland and not the UK-so what is it? the UK, Ireland, the E.U. and What have the romans ever done for us anyway they didnt even build any roads-
the iconograghy of the mother and child is still so important in this country whether you like the church are not I just don't know if laws for british society are really apropriate for the hearts and minds of Irish people, really there should be a referendum for new laws that apply to the whole island not just the six counties

by Jason Brannigan - Organise! Sun Oct 19, 2008 14:59 organiseireland at yahoo dot ie

Actually I think you'll find that the four main political parties do not represent public opinion on this. All the women who spoke to us in East Belfast, bar one, was in favour of the extension of the 67 abortion act. And whether we like it or not the wee north is still part of the UK's jurisdiction and the only part of the UK where that the 67 Abortion Act does not apply to. The question on the banner about equal citizenship in the UK is of course directed at the UUP who were the targets of this first picket. What with them being a party that claims to want to maintain the Union and its benefits, except it seems when it comes to women.

by Inez Sun Oct 19, 2008 17:02

most irish people are pro-choice for medical reasons, not for social reasons right up to six months of pregneancy like in Britain and all the social problems that entails-womens mental health being the problem of most concern when it comes to abortion for social reasons. The protests up North on TV looked massive from the pro-life side and pretty small from the pro-choice side-what democracy means is that we have to adhere to the majority whether we agree with it or not. Unfortunatly both sides come out with innacuracies and all sorts of rubbish -if you look for it the Truth you'll find it somewhere in the middle!

by Jason Brannigan - Organise! Sun Oct 19, 2008 22:50 organiseireland at yahoo dot ie

And one truth is that even in nasty ole Britain you cannot get an abortion for social reasons up to the 6th month of pregnancy. And with pro-life protests being bigger than pro-choice ones, well, all that proves is the majority are yet again silent. Not a surprise given the amount of social stigma attached to this.

by Eleanor Sun Oct 19, 2008 23:51 elllatheowl at hotmail dot com

You have printed a false statement that its not possible to get an abortion for social reasons up to 24 weeks in the UK. As you are a man you presumably have never even been inside an abortion clinic.
An abortion was carried out on me at 22 weeks by Maris Stopes on Burkhurst Hill, Essex where neither they nor their staff in Dublin asked for any reason at all.
The fact that anyone would be so naive as to believe the like of the statistics coming out of Marie Stopes International and actually publicly represent themselves as people who care about women's health is quite distressing to me.

by Jason Brannigan - Organise! Mon Oct 20, 2008 17:35 organiseireland at yahoo dot co dot uk

Okay, this may seem picky but pretty much every set or 6 calender months is longer than 24 weeks by up to a month - hence my previous statement. Below is some information on the actual working of the 1967 Abortion Act in Britain which might help informed discussion, it comes from the education for choice website, there is more information on that site and I've included a link.

The facts speak for themselves, Northern Irish (and southern Irish) women are having abortions in other countries. Pro-Life campaigners and government are content to add to the distress and financial hardship of these women by ensuring that abortion is exported.

It is undoubtedly the case that women who have chosen to have abortions need support and aftercare, the point about being pro-choice is that it allows different women to make a decision as to whether they continue their pregnancy or not. Support and aftercare for women who have had abortions is not helped by current legislation nor attitudes to abortion in Ireland. Stigma leads to the women who have had to travel to have abortions to keep it to themselves, they all too often become isolated and ostracised. Whether or not I have been in an abortion clinic is sort of besides the point, is the argument that a man cannot be pro-choice because he hasn't been inside an abortion clinic?

"Summary of legal grounds and time limits for abortion as laid out in the 1967 Abortion Act

Up to 24 weeks two doctors must decide that the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it.

There is no time limit on abortion where two doctors agree that a woman’s health or life is gravely threatened by continuing with the pregnancy or that the fetus is likely to be born with severe physical or mental abnormalities.

In the event that an abortion must be performed as a matter of medical emergency a second doctor’s agreement does not need to be sought.
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Consent

Providing that two doctors confirm that her need for an abortion fits the legal criteria, a woman does not need the consent of her own doctor, her partner or her family to have an abortion.

Women under 16 can have an abortion, without parental consent in some circumstances.
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What happens in practice

Despite legal time limits 87% of abortions take place within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. In many parts of the country it is difficult to access abortion after 12 weeks."

by GH - Alliance for Choice Tue Oct 21, 2008 18:27

There is great misrepresentation going on here on Indymedia in all the threads on abortion. A few points about democracy: over half of a VERY large sample in a poll carried out for the Crisis Pregnancy Agency in the South said they supported a woman's right to choose abortion i.e. not just on medical grounds but if the woman did not want to be pregnant.

Despite promising that ‘tens of thousands’ would attend, and a publicity campaign that included billboards and newspaper advertisements, last Saturday’s ‘Rally for Life’ at Stormont comprised, according to the BBC, ‘several hundred protestors’. The pro-choice actions were not rallies, advertised only by word of mouth and email/Facebook. They aimed only to be symbolic of the 40 women a week who leave the North to get abortions elsewhere.

At least 70,000 women from the North have had abortions in Britain since 1967; research indicates that each involved on average 5 others in her decision....do the maths...that's a lot of people in a region of only 1.7m. Our street campaigning over the last while has made it increasingly clear that - despite all the american money on the anti-choice side (I won't call them pro-life, they are only pro-birth) the pro-choice side would win a referendum if there was one in the morning.

Inevitably, some women will make the wrong decision in relation to unplanned pregnancies - just as we make the wrong decisions sometimes in other areas of our lives. But that doesn't mean that we should stop other women making similar decisions which might be the right one for them.

by RogerC Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:44

Abortion is obviously a very emotive subject. As a male I admit my credetials for comment are not as important as a female perspective.
However as a strong believer in equality and an opponent of any form of discrimination I must come out in support of the pro choice campaign.
This is a decision that HAS to be taken by women. But if we believe in equality and fairness simple logic dictates that all women must be on the same footing to make these decisions.
Pro choice isn't simply being pro abortion. Pro choice is, let women in Northern Ireland have the same rights as the women in England,Scotland, and Wales.

by Mangan Wed Oct 22, 2008 15:46

I query the logic of your statement: "As a male I admit my credentials for comment are not as important as a female perspective." In the same post you assert the need for equality of rights for pregnant women in NI on a par with their counterparts in other parts of the UK. 'Equality' is being invoked as a clinching argument in an discussion where you assert that male arguments on the admittedly touchy matter of abortion don't have equality with female arguments. Either the rationale of logical argumentation applies equally across the gender, ethnic and other human boundaries, or there has to be an exceptionalist deference made to presumably feminist campaigners. Campaigners could be challenged about their 'credentials' by women who have experienced worrying pregnancies yet have emerged from their experiences to campaign for the opposite of what the feminists and their supporters are aiming for.

by Catlady Sat Oct 25, 2008 23:58

Roger c you said "Pro choice isn't simply being pro abortion."

I would like to point out that being pro-choice has nothing to do with being "pro-abortion. I have never ever met anyone who is pro-abortion. I am pro-choice, entirely, but am certainly not pro-abortion. I'm not quite sure how a person could be "pro-abortion". Semantics, I realise, but a very important distinction to make, I feel.

Mangan, I appreciate your logic. However, to follow logic in this sense, I query your statement "an exceptionalist deference made to presumably feminist campaigners". What do you mean by feminist? and indeed by "presumably feminist"?

The matter of abortion affects women's lives - physically and emotionally - in a way that it will never affect men, due to biology. I agree with Roger that it is essentially an issue which should and will be decided by women. Rare is the case where the father wishes to take on the potential child and bring it up alone. Where that is the case, I feel there is certainly an argument to be made, but I honestly can't see such cases blocking up the courts systems in the near future.

And yes, the women of NI should have the same rights as those of the rest of the UK. Why not???? I envy them their rights to abortion, not that I ever intend to need to have one!

Abortion in this day and age should be a right, I feel. However, it is far from ideal, and certainly not an effective or safe means of birth control. Women, young and older should be educated about the forms of contraception (as should men) so they can make the choice to not get pregnant in the first place.

Hell, I am almost 34 and have only just this last year found the contraception I am happy with! It has been around for years but nobody told me! Education is the key to reducing the need for abortion. But it should be a right for any woman to not give birth if she does not wish to do so.

by RogerC Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:19

Catlady.. I didn't mean to imply that being pro choice could in any way mean being pro abortion. I raised the point as in several debates I had been at this seemed to be the opinion that many pro life campaigners were pushing. I had meant to say pro choice wasn't pro abortion but obviously didn't make myself clear so I appologise for that.
Mangan.. I don't think it is illogical to advocate equality on a gender specific issue being the main concern of that specific gender.

by picador Mon Oct 27, 2008 18:14

Abortion in NI. Very interesting but as the main parties, nationalist and unionist are pretty much agreed that the Act should not be extended it's case closed.

Indymedia is against the Western military expansionism in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan, right? Well, the returning 'heroes' of the British Army are planning to march through the centre of Belfast next Sunday and I don't see much about it on here. Are you serious about being anti-war or what!?

by European socialist Mon Oct 27, 2008 22:16

I far as I'm concerned I would have to agree with all the other European countries that have a lower time limit for abortion than the UK (the UK has the latest in Europe). It's far more sensible to follow the lead of the scandanadian countries than the brits. Also as members of the E.U we should be looking to have equal abortion rights to are European neighbours not looking to Westminster to be making laws for us.

by Lorna Mon Oct 27, 2008 23:14

it should 'nt really be isolated to women's issues-at silent no more gatherings both sexes attend and often father's are very deeply affected by abortion-whole families-parents, grandparents boyfriends,husbands ect.attend to have thier say. Really very few things can be gender isolated and it's not really fair to isolate women when family planning and gender politics effect the whole of society not just the individual.

by Catlady Tue Oct 28, 2008 02:27

Roger I thought you did not mean pro-choice could be equated to pro-abortion, but I felt it needed clarification. No need to apologise.

Lorna, I do agree that men can be deeply affected by abortion and in cases where they wish to take on the potential child and raise it alone, they should have a voice, and society should listen and give their point of view its considered opinion. However, the broader public rarely hear from these men on this issue, and the fact remains that it is only within the female body that a child can be grown. In cases where the father wishes to raise the child it is certainly a difficult issue and one which needs more discussion. I also believe that these cases represent a very very timy minority, and unless these men speak up, my opinion will not change.

As for looking to Westminster or Europe for guidance, I see no difference. Scientifically and morally speaking, we should, as a society, look to all sources for example and guidance when bringing in new legislation.

I see no complaints when new treatments for illnesses come from England rather than Brussels...

Honestly, who cares where it comes from? The ideal ought to be to survey existing knowledge, and reap the rewards of the experience of others, no matter what patch of earth they crap on!

by European socialist Tue Oct 28, 2008 14:38

there has to be a reason to have a particular time limit-in the UK it was 26 weeks until around '86 when the brought it down to 24 weeks. From studying the scientific evidence my bet would be that at the next review it will again be brought down to possibly 22 or 20 weeks. The medical establishment don't just arbitrarily choose a time limit-the newest evidence shows foetal development taking place earlier than was previously understood (the scanning machine was only invented in 1976 and has recently much improved from grainy to clearer images, amazing new developments in invitero video footage now show the foetos opening eyes at 18 weeks when up until recently it was textbook that took place at 26 weeks) the political community shouldn't lag behind medical, scientific and technological advancment. If all of Europe does something different than the obvious question is why presume the Brits have it right. Most of the studies are coming out of scandanavian countries which puts more resources into studying the effects of abortion therefore it makes more sense to look to those countries to better understand the issue.

by Janet Tue Oct 28, 2008 22:16

As a Mother of a teenage daughter who wants to save the world I find it a bit disturbing that the same people who do such good work on the anti-war issue publish printed material which states that women should feel ‘relief’ after abortion and even claim that the terrible consequenses for mental health don’t exist. The female suicide has risen quite alarmingly in Ireland in the past 10 years and the instince of young women admitted to A&E for self-harm has also increased. I’m really concerned about young women today and how society fails to protect them. Really people in the public eye who write on this issue should be more socially responsible.

by matt Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:38

"The female suicide has risen quite alarmingly in Ireland in the past 10 years and the instince of young women admitted to A&E for self-harm has also increased. I’m really concerned about young women today and how society fails to protect them. Really people in the public eye who write on this issue should be more socially responsible."
Remembering that abortion IS still illegal in Ireland, how exactly can abortion be to blame or is the point that even talking about abortion causes mental health problems....this is ridiculous. Is the author's position that pregnancy never causes mental health difficulties?. Is the author's position that no other factors within Irish life may be responsible for this? Would the author consider that maybe the Irish judicial systems continuing low convicition rate for rape, sexual assault and domestic violence against women may have more of an impact than people expressing their opinions on abortion for example?

I agree with the posts above that men have a different angle on this to women..I don't have a womb...I will never, ever be pregnant. My partner might be but I certainly won't and I won't presume to know what it feels like or that my imaginings will be more accurate than her experience.

I don't however advocate a female only referendum as interesting as it would be.
In every pregnancy there is one woman who is most profoundly affected by it. That woman should be allowed to make the choice whether to have the baby or to have an abortion, even if the majority of woman they talk to say it's a bad idea or the work of the devil or whatever other reasons are given. When it comes to an individuals body, it is the individuals' choice and society should be more concerned with supporting individuals and helping them to make their own decisions than trying to scare them into complacency. The granting of abortion rights is for the benefit of both men and women as what effects one gender sure as hell effects the other one.

The pro-choice side are not anti-life. That's quite obvious. You don't see pro-choice supporters gathering around maternity hospitals crying "Shame, shame"...or "Kill It, Kill It." or "You're a monster". You don't see pro-choice supporters up in court for firebombing maternity wards or attacking pregnant women on their way in. You don't see fake womens resource centres setup by the pro-choice lobby to encourage women to have abortions and lying, spreading false 'medical' advice and scaring women into complying. They don't do these things for the simple reason that Pro-Choice means just that.

If you choose to have a baby, you should be supported to fulfill that wish in the most positive and empowering circumstances possible . If you have difficulty as a result of that decision, if you can't cope, if you regret it...you should be supported.

If you choose not to have a baby, you should be supported to fulfill that wish in the most positive and empowering circumstances possible . If you have difficulty as a result of that decision, if you can't cope, if you regret it...you should be supported.

by Séamus Sat Nov 01, 2008 17:16

Did the pickets outside the DUP, SDLP and Sinn Féin offices happen?

by socially responsible Mon Nov 03, 2008 01:11

what is socially irresposible is telling women that they will feel relief post-abortion and even trying to claim post-abortion trauma doesnt exist, women should be well informed especially women in a high risk category for mental ill-health, the stats from finland already cited in the comments above prove the strong link between abortion and suicide so people should take more care when making claims about abortion that do not apply to all women.

by related because Mon Nov 03, 2008 01:21

is matt trying to say that abortion isn't relevant to suicide statistics in ireland because its illegal here? 7-8000 irish women travel every year and in some age groups (age 22-30) irish women have more abortions than thier UK counterparts, given the difficulties faced by irish women in particular the mental health consequences are probably worse for irish women. Nobody from any side can really make claims about abortion and female suicide in ireland because given the level of silence surrounding the issue the relevant studies have not yet been carried out, in fact few women even have whats probably the most important part of thier health history even recorded on thier medical file.

by Stan Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:29

All suicide is worrisome: it's a last act of despair and leaves friends and dependents wondering sadly forever. Whether some suicides follow abortion (a speculative and unverifiable quantity) is going off on a tangent. The causes of unwanted pregnancies; the incidence of teen pregnancies; the unaccountability of fathers; and the emotional longings of potentially adoptive married couples - are all factors in the pregnancy-abortion dilemma that societies in western countries ought to research deeply. ( In Ireland the rise of suicide among the male 15-25 age group is a worrisome trend unrelated to the abortion question. )

by Catlady Tue Nov 04, 2008 02:06

You said "the political community shouldn't lag behind medical, scientific and technological advancment". I agree entirely.

You also said " If all of Europe does something different than the obvious question is why presume the Brits have it right"

I certainly wouldn't presume either has it right without looking into "The science bit" so to speak. What gave you the impression that I thought otherwise? I simply stated that when bringing in new legislation we should look to ALL available sources of policy before coming to a decision. That would include the UK without excluding other nations.

Matt - you are wonderful! I love the idea of pro-choicers shouting outside maternity wards! I'm cracking up here! Very well put. And I wouldn't agree with an all female referendum either.

Socially responsible - "what is socially irresposible is telling women that they will feel relief post-abortion and even trying to claim post-abortion trauma doesnt exist"..... Who says ths???? Certainly no pro-choicer I have ever met! Some women DO feel relief post-abortion. I know that for A FACT. I also realise it can be a very traumatic expoerience. As can giving birth, especially to a baby you never wanted and was not your fault you conceived. Each case is individual and it is for the individual to chose what is right for her, ideally with counselling.

For you to suggest that no woman will feel relief post-abortion is ignorant and disrespectful, not to mention an indicating of a protectionist attitude towards women. Women are fully functioning adults who can be trusted to make the right decisions for themselves. Hence my pro-choice stance. How dare anyone presume to choose on my behalf!!!!

I can assure you that many women also attempt or are successful in committing suicide as they are pregnant and have no way out.

The issue is one of choice. We are not idiots. Counselling should be available but at the end of the day, it is MY body and only I get to choose what grows in it.

by AM Tue Nov 04, 2008 06:28

"the stats from finland already cited in the comments above prove the strong link between abortion and suicide"

No they don't. As the authors of the study acknowledge, they may only prove that there are shared risk factors for both.

by Ella Tue Nov 04, 2008 21:05

the stats in finland are 35.7 female suicides per 100,000 of population post-abortion compared to 5.9 post birth or during pregneancy from 1984-94 (in a country with a lower more restricive time limit for abortion-18 weeks-6 weeks lower than the UK) As far as I know the statistics relating to suicide in Ireland don't yet exist.

by Jerry Tue Nov 04, 2008 21:16

'what is socially irresposible is telling women that they will feel relief post-abortion and even trying to claim post-abortion trauma doesnt exist"..... Who says ths???? Certainly no pro-choicer I have ever met!'
catlady- perhaps you have not met the main pro-choice lobbyists! the organiser or the Alliance for choice protests in the north and the writer of articles about that on this website is Goretti Horgan who has printed a swp pamhlet which states that most women feel relief after abortion and also claims that post-abortion trauma doesn't exist.
As a sufferer of post-abortion trauma myself I wish I had recieved the correct information which is -that some women experience relief and some women suffer post-abortion trauma.

by GH Wed Nov 05, 2008 18:11

These are the facts: 'Post Abortion Syndrome' was first written about by anti-abortion psychiatrists in the United States in 1987. The media quickly took up this new 'fact'. President Ronald Reagan ordered his top public health official, Surgeon-General C. Everett Koop, to prepare a 'comprehensive report' on the impact of abortion on women's health. His brief was to establish the existence of the 'syndrome'.

Koop who, like Reagan, was a fervent anti-abortionist duly reviewed more than 250 published research articles. He then declined to issue a report at all, saying that 'the scientific studies do not provide conclusive data on the effects of abortion on women'. Eventually, in 1989, a Congressional committee compelled Koop to release his report and ordered him to testify. Koop told the committee that the problem of adverse psychological effects on women was 'minuscule from a public health perspective.'

Most women do go through a 'weepy' period in the days immediately after an abortion, as their hormones get back to normal. These are the same kind of 'blues' that most women have 3-5 days after having giving birth. However, in the longer term, the vast majority of women having abortions do not suffer depression. Indeed, all research studies have shown that, when other factors (like partner's attitude, family issues etc) are taken into account, the feeling most often expressed is relief. Even Dr. Patricia Casey, the leading anti-abortion psychiatrist in the South, says that about 10% of women who have abortions suffer what she calls 'post abortion syndrome'. This, as she points out, is the same proportion of women who suffer post natal depression. Every objective study shows that when women did suffer depression, it was because of external reasons - job, family, money, rejection by their boyfriend, reasons which had perhaps forced them into abortion. Of course a woman forced into ending a pregnancy that she might have wanted to continue is going to feel depressed but that does not mean that there is such a thing as 'post-abortion syndrome'.

No one has to accept my word on this, google Surgeon-General C. Everett Koop's report for yourself.

by Jennifer Wed Nov 05, 2008 20:24

as someone who has a particular interest in mental health I find it pretty awful to dismiss the mentally ill as miniscule from a public health perspective, most people don't suffer other kinds of mental illness either but at least there is now a public campaign to raise awareness and end discrimination of the mentally ill. in my experience english psychiatrists are very aware of the horrible realities of post-abortion trauma but irish doctors or psychiatrists don't know a whole lot about it. The suicide statistics from finland are fairly conclusive , without any kind of agenda reveal 6 times higher female suicide rate post abortion than during pregneancy or post-birth.
Also just because studies happen to be done under a reagan administration by people who probably have a pro-life agenda doesnt necessarily mean they are wrong.