CALLS FOR MASS PROTESTS AGAINST SECTARIANISM

by Paul Murphy - Socialist Youth Thu Aug 01, 2002 19:13 syucd at hotmail dot com

Firstly, I never said that the Socialist Party supports the Orange Order. What I did say is that we support the right of the Orange Order to march in city centres, just as we support the right of all organisations except fascists to demonstrate and support their freedom of speech. The support for the democratic rights of an organisation is completely different than support for the organisation. No socialist could ever support the Orange Order – it is a sectarian bigoted organisation. That make things a bit clearer?

Secondly, your argument about Islamic fundamentalism is bizarre to say the least. Firstly, I never said that Islamic fundamentalists have killed more people than US Imperialism and secondly the criteria for which ideology is worse is not simple arithmetic, and whoever’s killed more is worse. Perhaps that explains your view that Loyalists = bad, Republicans = good!

Many would argue that Stalin killed more than Hitler. Does that make Stalin worse than Hitler? No, of course not. Hitler was a fascist, who committed horrific genoicide and attempted to smash the working class and its organisations. On the other hand, Stalin was the representative of a bureaucracy which had arisen at the top of a degenerated workers’ state, and should be condemned for his destruction of democracy in the Soviet Union, as well as his execution and imprisonment of the Left Opposition and ordinary workers, to name but a few of his crimes. However, socialists should not accept the comparison between Hitler and Stalin, because it serves the Right’s crusade to equate Marxism with Fascism – the idea that if you go far Left enough you become Far Right etc. This idea is patently false, as I’m sure you’ll agree, so I won’t go into why.

Anyway, the point is that a simple comparison of numbers killed is not the way to determine which ideology is worse. You must examine the core of the ideology as well as its social base and power. Following your analysis, it was correct for the Communist Party in Germany in the 30’s to go on joint demonstrations with the Nazis against the Social Democrats, because the Social Democrats had killed more than the fascists. That was only the fascists hadn’t had the chance to, and they proved later just how bad they were.

If Islamic fundamentalism had the military and economic power of US Imperialism, I would say that it would kill more than US Imperialism. If you ask the vast majority of people in the world, would they prefer to live in the US, with certain democratic rights and freedoms, or in an Islamic fundamentalist regime, like Afghanistan was (and probably still is), with no democratic rights or freedoms, they would prefer the US Imperialism. Socialists must oppose the twin terrors of Bush and American imperialism, and Bin Laden and Islamic fundamentalism. Both are barbarous, and result in the oppression of the masses. However, if you have to say that one is worse than the other, surely you have to agree that Islamic fundamentalism is worse than US Imperialism, for its complete lack of rights for women, no democratic rights whatever and enforced religion, not to mention its economic system which is almost feudal in nature.

by James Connolly - Turning in my grave Wed Jul 31, 2002 20:30

Jaysus Christ! Next, ye'll be telling me that Islamic fundamnentlists have killed more people than US imperialism...

...oh whoops, ye have

by Paul Murphy - Socialist Youth Wed Jul 31, 2002 16:49 syucd at hotmail dot com

It’s nice to see that the old tactics of the SWP, of distorting what you write, and knocking down arguments you never make, are alive and well.

I never said that SY or SP will be boycotting this demo. We will be present on this demonstration, making the points to the overwhelmingly Catholic crowd who will turn up about the sectarian nature of Sinn Fein, and the fact that attacks are against both communities. This therefore means that we are not standing “to one side”, as you put it, but will instead be telling the truth to the working class, as is the duty of Marxists, as opposed to bending from nationalist pressure in the communities we have a base in.

I also never denied that the majority of attacks are by Loyalists against the Catholic community. That is the case, but nonetheless there is a significant minority (around 1/3) of attacks which are perpetrated by Republicans against Protestants. Do you deny this like Sinn Fein?

The fact that you feel that this is a reflection of a desire from peace from below shows the lack of real roots in working class communities of the SWP. While there is of course a generalised mood for peace, the mood is nothing like that which initiated the demonstration a few months ago. I never said that this is an anti-protestant demo, but the fact that the UUP does not show that it has broad support from the Protestant working class. The UUP supported reluctantly after being forced into a position where in reality it had to by the British state, and anyway, even you acknowledge that the UUP is a sectarian party.

Yes we do support the right of Protestants to march in arterial roots of towns, rather than simply bending to the understandable pressure from nationalist communities. We support the rights of all, except fascists, to march in a non-provocative manner and in consultation with the residents. The SWP on the other hand oppose the rights of the Orange Order to march in some city centres, for confusing and different reasons. Sometimes, the Orange Order are labelled fascists, without any grounds, just to give a reasonable Marxist explanation to this bending to Republicanism. At other times, the reason is just left out, and it is clearly just sectarianism, that “Orange feet” shouldn’t be in a “Green town”.

As to the sectarian state, what the SWP seems to miss is that the British state has wanted out of Northern Ireland for a long time, this is clear from cabinet documents recently released from the 60s. However, they have been unable to pull-out for the unrest that would be created as a result. Your analysis of the Northern Irish state is based on the past, although even then your analysis was warped. For instance, do you know that when British troops went into Northern Ireland after the Battle of the Bogside, the SWP welcomed them, because they would provide a “breathing space”. But I thought that they were the troops of imperialism?? The SP opposed them going in and instead called for Peace Committees (can’t remember the exact name) made up of the working class from both sides of the communities to organise the opposition to sectarian attacks. This was not an abstract call either as they did exist in some areas.

As for your point on the twin evils of Osama Bin Laden and George Bush, I’m not exactly sure the point you’re making. In may opinion Bin Laden is a worse evil than George Bush because he represents a step back towards religious fundamentalism, obscurantism, and an almost feudal society. However, the SWP originally refused to condemn the attacks on America, so who is it that you are calling the worse evil? Nationalism of all sorts is a poison to the working class movement, and will destroy our movement, so it must be resisted wherever it pops up, always instead arguing for independent working class politics. This is what we were doing with calling for the TU’s not to support the demo. Now that they have supported it, we will be present on the demonstration, demonstrating against all sectarian attacks, and talking to Catholic workers, telling them about our ideas for working class unity, rather than sectarian

by Donal Mac Fhearraigh - SWP Tue Jul 30, 2002 22:12 donalmacfhearraigh at yahoo dot co dot uk 087 683 8746

The anti sectarian demonstration this weekend should be supported by every socialist. Of course it would be better if the unions called the protest instead of the city council - but to refuse to take part in it for this reason is lunacy, and in fact shows a reluctance to take on sectarian arguements inside the protestant working class.

This stance ignores the increased number of sectarian attacks that have been taking place (most of which HAVE been carried out by loyalist thugs on catholics, despite what our friend in Socialist Youth thinks).

It also misunderstands that the impulse for the demonstration is not simply a sectarian reflex from above, but a real desire for peace from below, and an attempt by the established political forces to head off that movement.
We should also remember that simply because sectarian politicians try to put themselves at the head of a movement doesn't mean that they will automatically get a hearing from workers, but if socialists stand to one side they definitely will.

The very fact that the UUP are supporting the demo proves it isn't an 'anti proterstant demo'.

The idea that you should boycott this demo for fear of alienating protestant workers shows a deep pessimism about every winning protestant workers from sectarianism - the number of protestant workers on the Danyy McColgan demo gives lie to this fear.

Socialists cannot ignore the sectarian nature of the Northern Ireland state. To call Alex Maskey a sectarian shows a confusion over the relationship between imperialism, the atate and oppression. Maskey is a nationalist communal politician but he is not the same as Trimble - whats the difference? Trimble is backed by a unionist establisment, a sectarian state and police force, and by British imperialism.

The approach of the Socialist Party to this demonstration is a disgrace. Republicans and loyalists are not twin evils - no more tham Osama Bin Laden and George Bush are. The Socialist Party's refusal to challenge sectarianism previously found them supporting the Orange Order as a form of "protestant culture" (rather than the loyalist bigotry it is) and meant that they supported the "right" of the Orange Order to march down the Garvahy Road!
Socialists will not win the leadership of the working class movement if they duck hard arguements. The SWP will be on the march this weekend, I hope to see the rest of you there.

by Dave Mon Jul 29, 2002 23:44

It's true that sectarian attacks are carried out by elements from both communities. It's also a fact that the vast majority of attacks, including the latest murder emanate from loyalist extremists. There is also the not so slight problem of a "police force" whose impartiality can at be very least be questioned.

by Mags Mon Jul 29, 2002 17:58

"The current round of atrocities was initiated when republican paramilitaries killed a Protestant youth playing football."

Where, who, when, etc.

by Paul Murphy - Socialist Youth Mon Jul 29, 2002 15:06 [email protected]

Trade Unionists should not give any support to this supposedly 'anti-sectarianism' demo. This is a demonstration called primarily by the sectarian Sinn Fein and nominally supported by the sectarian UUP. For Trade Unions to support this demonstration is to give credence to the idea that sectarian atacks are all one-way, against Catholics, and to isolate a large section of the Protestant working class, who will feel that the Trade Unions are taking the 'nationalist' side.
The true facts are that there have been numerous sectarian attacks against people on both sides of the sectarian divide over the last few weeks. The current round of atrocities was initiated when republican paramilitaries killed a Protestant youth playing football. However, this is hushed up by some to make it appear as though Protestants are the aggressors, while Catholics are simply always under attack. The truth is much more complicated than that and involves sectarian attacks from both sides, all of which should be condemned.
It is true that the best form of condemnation is a mass protest, but this demonstration is a disgusting caricature of an anti-sectarianism demo. The forces behind it are sectarian, and have sectarian motives in calling this protest. The protest will take the form of a condemnation of attacks on Catholics, which is entirely correct, but there will be no mention of the attacks on the Protestant section of the population. In fact, it is quite likely that Alex Maskey, the sectarian Sinn Fein Belfast Lord Mayor, will be chairing the protest. This demonstration, if it receives Trade Union backing, will isolate a large section of the Protestant working class. They will see that it is always only attacks on Catholics which are criticised while attacks on their community are seemingly ignored. It will also serve to alienate much of the working class from the Trade Unions, as they will be seen only to be representing nationalist interests.
Instead of supporting this sectarian demonstration, the Trade Unions should initiate independent working class action against sectarian attacks on both sides. This could take the form of a mass demonstration, similar to what was seen a few months ago in Belfast, which would not give an ounce of support to any of the sectarian parties.