Enough of Israeli barbarity! : Protest against the collective punishment of Gaza!

by Babs Mon Feb 04, 2008 21:56

The Hamas leaders met with the curatins closed at mid day by candle light

They decided to send Hamas rockets to hit the Ashkelon Power Station in Israel which had been

supplying 70 % of Gaza's electricity -meanwhile the rocket workshops are given power and they cut

off supplies to the Hospitals

" Poor starving Gazans " go over border and bring back flat screen TVs and then send suicide

bombers to go from Egypt 40 miles across Negev desert to bomb Dimona

by Funny Mon Feb 04, 2008 23:33

Funny how you forgot to mention the Palestinian people who have died because they are refused permission to leave Gaza for medical treatment and you forgot to mention the people killed by the Israeli Defence force. Oh yeah and what about the scores of people kidnapped by the IDF in the West Bank over the last few days.

Funny that! Huh Babs?

Wake up to the truth of what Israel is doing in Palestine because you are either a fool or tool.

Which is Babs?

by Babs Thu Feb 07, 2008 18:55

Have you not read about all the Gazans who are in Israeli Hospitals esp in Ashkelon

which is being rocketed every day now ?

Have you not read about how there was power but Hamas cut it off to clinics ?

What about the candle lit HAMAS meeting at mid day with curtains drawn ?

And as you shoot 100 rockets a day dont complain when some one shoots back

by Not Funny Thu Feb 07, 2008 21:56

"And as you shoot 100 rockets a day dont complain when some one shoots back"- say it Babs.

Your disgusting! SO by your logic is some invades another country then they shouldn't complain if they meet resistance. Huh?

by D.H. Cohen - Private citizen Mon Feb 11, 2008 15:32

Funny and Not Funny must be very young and little read because from 1947 to '67 it was the Arabs who refused to let anybody cross Israeli frontiers, save handfuls of pilgrims in Jerusalem. Before 1967 Arab states would not let Israeli Arabs go to Mecca. There is really religious humanity for you! Infant mortality at 90 in Jordan's West Bank, and 120 in Egyptian occupied Gaza!
Indeed if you invade somebody as the Arabs tried in 1948, '56, '67, 73, '87 and 2000 you get hit back . Gaza is self proclaimed enemy territory especially under a Hamas regime that refuses to acknowledge the two state solution to the hostilities and so Israelis are not obliged to supply it with anything - no more than UK & US to supply Germany in 14-18 or 39 - 45.
It has been pure humanity that Israel has tried to make friends by supplies, medical aid and jobs for most of the forty years since 1967. Unfortunately it tells us a lot about Arab blinkered minds and lack of forethought that Arabs only take Israel for soft-in-the head suckers. Who was it who said that Arafat started his (2000 ff) war NOT because Arabs hated Israel, but to make Arabs hate Israel?
Well now the whole mud flinging game has rebounded. This is not the first time that Arabs have abused their own people as cannon fodder - sorry rocket-fuel - so as to supply the press with bloody shirt pictures only this time it has been too obvious and has annoyed the Egyptians.
Into the bargain there isa full fledged Fatah - Hamas civil War going on that is killing more Arabs than Israel, so where is the indignation on that? Those who after the last ten years of Arab superlative mismanagement of Arab affairs in Palestine, remind me of the Leninist, "useful idiots," who in 1938 - 39 sympathised with the "hard life" of the Sudeten Germans.

by Don Mon Feb 11, 2008 18:01

Where is that? I may attend. I'm sympathetic towards the Palestinians, although I think Israel has a right to exist and to defend herself Just not in the manner Israel is doing so at the moment.

by donkylemore Mon Feb 18, 2008 01:04

I have a tortured memory which will never leave me.
It is the first thing that struck me when I entered the camp in Quana S .Lebanon after the bombing.#
The townsfolk of the town , many of them Palestinian refugees had taken shelter in the Fijian Un Compound - they were located in a large tent - runbber hall - when the bombs struck
The sight of an undead infant crying clutching a furry toy , his dismembered mother's body feet away.
Limbs strewn in gory disarray everywhere.
And the smell of burning flesh and cordite still hanging on the air,
When the pieces were assembled in whatever dignified way we could afford them and the body bags labeled and zipped up, we left the weeping village in shame .
The shame of belonging to a Un Protectorate force ; UNIFIL who had failed these innocents.
The bombing by the IDF was as gruesome as it was precise , as clinical as it was vengeful , as sinful as to defile any remorse one formerly felt for their own dreadful nightmare.
And they still subdue , and practice a vile hegemony in the region largely because of US money , and a lack of US restraint,
They are the chosen people , whom when God chose He made a bad choice.
The Israelis were given a country by an organization which had no authority to do so,
The victor writes the history , and the Brits and US decided that as a consolation the Israelis would inherit the Promised land .
And when they took it they grabbed ever more each year , until war again visited the region .
Now they carve up towns villages , farms , access to water , power, services , and close their borders at a whim.
While Bush was in the region on his one singular visit in 7 years he spoke of Israel returning to historical borders while all this time the separation wall crept over the rhetoric and smothered any scintilla of appeasement or reconciliation.
But I return to where I started
Grapes Of Wrath -
Do they read their Talmud - Babylonic , read Solomon , observe Rabbinic Law.?
Where is this Wrath justified other than in the darkest festered soul of those who scorrn the Divine light of wisdom , forgiveness .
Where the collective soul justifies the conscience of her people she has withered and died .
The infant with the smoldering teddy , too moribund to utter its agony ; where in the creative mind of the Chosen People is there an imagination so barren and bereft of moral value , to ever ask for atonement and expect it

by Mr. Man Mon Feb 18, 2008 07:35

Donkylemore: Your quite graphic story is a good illustration of the faults in Israeli foreign policy. However, I would like to point out some faults which you should address in future:

"as sinful as to defile any remorse one formerly felt for their own dreadful nightmare." -You need to separate Jewish history with Israeli history. Jewish does not equal Israeli. To belittle the holocaust based on the actions of a country is, well, a little anti-semitic. Now I'm sure this wasn't your intended meaning, but little points like these can damage your argument.

"They are the chosen people , whom when God chose He made a bad choice." -Again, blurring Jewish people with Israelis.

"where in the creative mind of the Chosen People is there an imagination so barren and bereft of moral value , to ever ask for atonement and expect it" -And again.

"And when they took it they grabbed ever more each year , until war again visited the region." -Israel does not have an expansionist policy. Any land annexation has been in response to war, not vica versa (with the exception of the settlements). The way you describe it is misleading, portraying Israel as agressively expanding its borders.
Like my previous comments, if you make cognitive errors in making your arguments, it can negatively effect it. Even if your intended argument is quite valid, in a reasoned debate these things can trip you up.

by D.H.Cohen - private citizen Mon Feb 18, 2008 21:44

If Donkeylemore and others spent an afternoon in a major reference library reading the newspaper files of 1947 they would see that the Arab parties fluffed their politics:
* throwing a tantrum by refusing to address UNSCOP (UN special committee on P).
* They spent the months before UN181 making clear they would fight any partition resolution - regardless of what boundaries would be proposed.
* they then set about shooting up Israeli buses and lorries and generally doing what they had promised - in the words of the Mufti, "Kill the Jews wherever you find them!" In the phrasing of Arab League Sec Gen, "This is going to be a Mongolian massacre. " As Bomber Harris said of his campaign in Germany, "They sowed the wind. They will reap the whirlwind."
1948 ended badly for the Arab World and the Palestine Arabs in particular; but so did 1945 for the Germans. Neither the Arabs nor the Germans should have started.

by donkylemore Tue Feb 19, 2008 14:37

Mr Man ''..Again, blurring Jewish people with Israelis.''
I have met and visited Israelis professionally in Rambam hospital quite regularly during my tenure as a medical officer with UNIFIL.
Our relationships were always professional and cordial. They did some very advanced and heroic surgery on UNIFIL soldiers. on my behalf as MO to different contingents at different times; Irish ; Fiji; Nepal ; Norway . I could never find the smallest fault with their devotion to their work.
But they were all Israelis and stoutly defended the defence of their being Jews. There was no equivocation whatever ,. Their fervor for their homeland is unblinded by any ambiguity.
I also visited the Holocaust Museum with an Israeli girlfriend. I wanted to decline the invitation as my own father had served as a dentist during WW2 and was one of the first in to Beltzan camp- the horror of that experience never left hm-essentially he was being asked to make an assessment of the numbers slaughtered on the basis of dental pathology.
This girl persisted with her invitation pleading that I should acknowledge her Jewishness.
I am not confusing Israelis with Jews ; whatever about Zionism which is another matter altogether.
I acquiesced and was repulsed by what I saw there. Incidently it was essential viewing for all Israeli school kids at the time 80-85 .

That Israel has no expansionist policy in manifestly untrue. Why else is there a separation wall there.The wall is not simply a security structure . It still divides Palestinian territory - farms from Palestinians. In one case where I frequently visited , the farmers house was separated from his orange grove by the wall causing him a round trip of 6 km to access his crop.
I regret ''any cognitive error '' I may made in writing this piece .
The Israeli military code name of the operation ''Grapes of Wrath '' should have made for greater clarification.
I have never heard any one from the Israeli military say that this was categorically not an action carried out on behalf Jews .
Have you ever heard a Jew repudiate the actions of the Israeli Army over Operation Grapes of Wrath''
I have waited over 20 years for someone to say so.
Perhaps you could elucidate .

by Mr. Man Wed Feb 20, 2008 07:50

donkylemore: My point about the blurring of lines is primarily due to the large proportion of non-Israeli Jews who are not Zionists, who get painted with the same brush as Israel.

As regards the security barrier, while it is true that its placement cuts off workers from their land, it has always been regarded as a temporary measure. In saying that, I completely agree that even if it was temporary, it is a stupid thing to do. But I would not consider it as an example of expansionism. If Israel really did have expansionist policies, I feel that the borders of Israel would be a LOT bigger than dissecting farms on its periphary. For the most part, it seems to me, any land gained in conflict has been subsequently given back.

I am sure the military has never stated it wasn't carried out on behalf of Jews. ISRAELI jews (plus the smaller christian and agnostic/athiest communities. Not sure how the bedoin were effected). There is a big difference.

And yes, I have heard a Jew repudiate the actions of the Israeli Army over Operation Grapes of Wrath. Many have. There is a large global Jewish anti-war movement. When I was in Israel I spent a lot of time with the anti-war movement.

And while the following does not pertain directly to the Grapes of Wrath, it shows the repugnance of many of the people in the army for some of the stupid decisions that the defence policy has brought about.
(link)

by donkylemore Wed Feb 20, 2008 15:51

Mr Man
I am condfused . Firstly you attack my comments on the basis of some machivalian rhetoric.; pedantic zealotry .
Then your position seems to focus on the Israel- Jew relationship.
I have been in the region fon 6 missions of 6 months each s over a period of 18 yrs as a medical officer. 1980-1999.
I have heard NO apology for the Operation GOW.
You seem to have heard one , though you don't say in how long . Neither do you state what you did with the anti war faction- smoked a joint - had a beer , a cup of tea.?? This might bring the shadow of your apologist ethos into the light of scrutiny. But perhaps you prefer the dark shadows of ambiguity .
Do you support the operation GOW and or the last invasion of Lebanon.
Some lucidity would help enormously.
But please desist from hectoring and railing against the feelings of those of us who had to witness and get involved in the clear up after the carnage.
I can recount many other instances where children were mutilated in naked vengeance - the air attacks were specifically of children schools.
One of them was at the time I last visited Lebanon in 99 had its playground so impregnated with cluster bombs that the school had to be abandoned.
I have seen children with amputated arms , which they got when they picked up a coloured cluster bomb - coloured to induce a childs curiosity.
It was a monstrously effective tactic .
There are hundreds on these children now in their teens all over Lebanon .

Finally , if you wish to elaborate on your as yet unenunciated views please do so without equivocation and d please desist from any patronizing me . Such comments would be unbecoming .

by donkylemore Wed Feb 20, 2008 17:48

Mr Man
Visited the site you recommended.
Curiously I glean quite a different message here.
Is seems from my reading that these are Israeli Zionists.
They recognize the existential occupation ,the occupied territory s , the settlements and the 1967 borders .
Yet you would blandly maintain that there is no expansionist policy this notwithstanding.
To the person whose land is taken from him; from he who owned and farmed the land and that land is now occupied by another citizen against his will - to that person his land is now in another country- Israel.It is a land grab and is by definition an expression of expansionism.
That Israel should place and accommodate her citizens in another country's domain -are you suggesting that this is not expansionism?
That Israel should occupy one foot of land north of the 67 border is a manifest violation of the UN Charter despite the recent platitudes of Bush referring to historical borders ;- if it wer not illegal occupation ( and expansionism where Israeli citizens have been housed in the 'Occupied territory ) there would be no call from the international community (and now amazingly also Bush)

During my service in S Lebanon Israeli incursions into Lebanon were a daily event.
We were powerless to stop them. They had the tanks , the artillery . the air power; and the incessant him of 'drones 'in the air all the time spying on the villagers ploughing their fields with oxen.
I can scarcely believe that you could be unaware of these things what with all your meetings with peace movements.
But let me recommend one site to you '' images from S lebanon you wont see in the press.
There was one more ghoulish site you should try to visit. It shows an arab father trying to protect his son , as the Israelis open fire .
The video lasts about 20 seconds ending with the dead boy in his fathers arms.
You would probably suggest this is a set up.
There is none so blind as he who will not see....

by Mr. Man Thu Feb 21, 2008 07:13

Donkylemore:
I don't see the relevance of a timescale, but 1st probably about 5 years ago, most recently about 2 weeks ago.

I didn't do any activities with the anti-war movement, I was just hanging out and talking with them.

I would not consider my views to be ambiguent, rather ambivalent. There is so much grey in this issue that it is difficult to sum it up in "x is wrong, y is right".

I would have thought from my comments that it is clear that I do not support the operation.

The link was in response to "Have you ever heard a Jew repudiate the actions of the Israeli Army over Operation Grapes of Wrath'' and I feel it shows people in the Israeli Army doing just that.

And again, I have asserted my view on the settlements and apartheid wall. Not good. As I said, I recognise the stupidity of these things, but I would not consider them expansionist. The religious right in Israel may have plans for it, but Israeli public opinion and world opinion is so against it that I cannot see it succeeding. Occupying territories is not expansionism. Was america expansionist when it occupied Iraq? At the same time I recognise that this is just my viewpoint and may not be technically correct.

As per your site reccomendation, chilling, but I do not see how this fits our argument. I have always recognised the stupidity of Israeli defence policy. I have never claimed that terrible things like this did not happen. My main point was the seperation of Israel from Judaism. You seem to have incorrectly inferred my politics from very little information.

You ask me to not patronise you yet you finish a comment with "There is none so blind as he who will not see...."

by donkylemore Fri Feb 22, 2008 01:34

Mr Man
These are 2 quotations from your commentary

...stupid decisions that the defense policy has brought about.

As I said, I recognize the stupidity of these things, but I would not consider them expansionist.''
************

I think that if you substituted the word ''stupid'' to the more prosaic word '' barbarous'' we might find more common ground

American expansionism in Iraq..? Now you decide . They tople a regimen which by military analysis of the time, and revealed and emphasised again and again- Iraq had no established connection with 9.11
Bush wanted to punish someone , any one - but it needed to be personalised and televised and make good tv - they hatched the plot against Sadam with trumped up photos which Powell brought to the U knowing them to be false and artifactual
Bush was seething with biblical rage - as were the confused US citizens who suddenly realized that superman or Rambo wer'nt real so the shock and awe strategy was followed by a brief march on the capital. toppled the regeimen , slaughtered as many as100,000 in the offensive - 90 % civilians;#
There was no plan for post regimen change . The military had warned of this weeks before; Hence the reason detre for the changed into the zeal to install democracy ; war became the modus operandi to install a puppet government , followed by free elections , and Voila - Democracy.
Mission accomplished and all that.
On;y the Iraqis like many arab states- mostly muslim states have a different take on government - they believe in a form of participatory rule - the traditional authority being a mixture of secular and religious .
IN any case democracy was imposed . Whether or who voted is irrelevant . They called it democracy . and there are now de facto 3 states and a constant state of civil war,
Yes this is expansionism by stealth. As is the installment of US Nuclear warheads in the former soviet states .
The colonistaion can come later - first the hegemony .

I would have to confess that lest you get the impression that I am a pro Islamic apologist .
I am not an Islamic proselytizer ; I have seen the amputation of a limb as a punishment for theft ; saw it done by a holy man in a market square under Sharia Law. I wanted to see if it happened .
It was one of the most barbarous things I ever saw.
I have also had to treat a little arab girl with a partly amputated thumb , who was refused permission to take antibiotics because it was during Ramadam; ( you couldn't contemplate any surgical intervention without 48 hrs antibiotic cover ) I tried to reason with the mullah ,/ Immam / Sheik but he wouldn't budge . Let her lose the thumb if it is the wish of Allah .
We got around it another way - the thumb was salvaged.
I railed against his ruthless , dispassionate and remorseless diktat .
He resented my Christianity and chided me for disporting a crucifix . It is deemed a symbol of crusader triumphalism in most Islamic states.
He deemed me a lost sinner beyond the reach of reason or hope of salvation.
I deemed him to be an evil demagogue .
I dont believe we will ever have a unifying religion -
There is too much at stake for the religious .
But war for the purpose of imposing a belief system , religious or political , or cultural is I am now convinced - evil and sinful.
Maybe we could agree on that much and leave it at that.

I detest the very notion of war .
I think I detest it more than you
Now my nephew is heading for Chad .with Eufor .
It will leave him with scars as my experience did me , and my father him,
I can only pray.

by Mr Man Fri Feb 22, 2008 06:01

Ok, I guess we can just put it down to a difference of opinion, at least we agree on the basic points. I'm certain you detest war more than me, from what experiences you had. Judging from your posting times (in the am), maybe you will appreciate this comic as I did.
(Link)

by donkylemore Sat Feb 23, 2008 06:04

Mr Man,
Its been an interlude of calm and fury
I grasp forr those beatudies..remember ... ; fortitude , wisdom , council etc/
We seem to be the llast 2 standing
Now ; Finita est'
Roma lquitar
Causa finete

#