RIP Norman Mailer

by Keith Harris - Newsmedianews Sat Nov 10, 2007 16:53

RIP - norman Mailer was a diamond who, if not always liked, made people THINK. That was his greatest gift. There is a new star in the sky with his passing.

by Obit the second or third Sat Nov 10, 2007 17:51

On the death of Norman Mailer and in memory of a once interesting Country- The US,
its important to remember stories and words and what makes us people, because in
this present malaise of war and distrust that is destroying our planet, we need reminding
that there are huge internal problems in the USA- problems which include media dominance,
corporate abuse, a divided society and a culture of fear which does nothing to intellectually
engage with the issues that effect us all. Before Mc Veigh there was Waco, there was the
Jonestown Massacre, there have been school shootings and there was the attempted destruction of
the Amish community. The people who lead that country do not engage with Americans but
through a media veil and through dishonest spin and rhetoric.

Tim Mc veigh was an ex service man.

Gary Gilmore was the first person to be legally executed in 1977 after the US re-introduced the
death penalty. People like Mailer engaged with the issues and began discussions and stories
to engage with the ordinary people. how long is it since we have heard voices that dissent
from the culture of weirdness in the States, that have criticised the Bush Regime from within
the country?

The Vidal link discusses the letter he received from Mc Veigh-which begins his book on Oklahama.

http://www.geocities.com/gorevidal/3000/tim.html

It is better for the current US regime to be going finding and destroying it's demons across
the world than to engage with its own psychosis; and lack of speech about its failed and idiotic
administration.

-The Executioner's Song- by Norman Mailer.
Don't watch the movie, read the book.

by O2 Sat Nov 10, 2007 21:44

I was speaking tonight to a woman who is a member of the US citizens against War and the
Anti-war movement, who, being busy all day at the Protest in the City Centre had not picked
up on the news of Mailer's death. She was interested in the 1976 re-introduction of the death
penalty and we spoke about the notorious use of that penalty in relation to the Rosenbergs
and Mc Veigh. The Gilmore excecution had re-ignited engagement on the issue of appeal
rejection. An interesting point emerged and that was the proximity within the US imagination
of the unresolved massacre at Waco and how Mc Veigh's execution coincided with the
first anniversary of that spate of murders- and how that effects the psyche. How it effects
the issue of refusal to look at home grown terror and surfacing psychosis and resentment
against both Federal and National government. All those conversations stopped precisely
at 9/11 and the continued refusal to confront domestic violence became subsumed into
the catch all foreign policy hook- mentioned in the article. I asked her (and I hope she does)
to contribute to the obit- she believes that the sense of betrayal by the intelligentsia,
the diaspora (Both activist and artistic) only becomes evident on the net and that people
do not address nor discuss the problems within the society caused by political repression
and censorship.The Vidal book did not nearly address the conspiracy issue around Mc Veigh,
but it helped in creating connections for people between such diverse and outstandingly
unresolved problems as: Oswald, Waco, Jonestown, Oklahoma and the mentality that it
creates within those episodes= 'who are the patsy's', the scapegoats and the criminalised
when a society will not look honestly at it's failure.

again, we do not take enough time to read books- please read Mailer and the way that
the issue of the first execution post the 1976 re-instigation of the death penalty was
investigated surrounding the Gilmore case. Also how the Rosenburg execution worked
through a generation forcing a confrontation between people and their government on the
issue of communism- this is particularly well done in 'The Bell Jar' and the Plath papers.

by 0.2 Sun Nov 11, 2007 15:01

What created the discussion on the execution of Gilmore delineated in the book; 'The Executioner's Song' was that
Gary Gilmore like Mc Veigh eschewed the appeals process in relation to the death penalty.

http://www.democracynow.org/transcripts/gorevidal.shtml

There is wiki and archive on 'Armies of the Night' which details the anti -Vietnam /anti-war march on the Pentagon.
Many conversations about internal US policy just stopped after the military take-over by the hawks and Bushites
and their apologists in the EU. All those conversations about relation to the state and artistic responsibility should begin again.
We move in generations of people not in half-cocked Utopia's held together with inept bits of chewing gum
and sticking plaster.
RIP Norman Mailer. (1923-2007)

by Sceptic Sun Nov 11, 2007 20:25

One can argue about the application of the death penalty in the US but there is no need to justify in some way those mentioned above – there was no question whatever of the guilt on capital offences of the Rosenbergs or Gilmore or McVeigh.

by Dorothy Gale Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:50

Factually incorrect. Many books have been written about the Rosembergs being framed and many people still believe that the Rosenbergs were innocent.

While McVeigh played a part in the Oklahoma bombing there is evidence to suggest that he was just a cog in a much larger wheel. Gore Vidal has also written about this.

by 0.2 Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:23

Historically there is info that Julius Rosenburg did indeed sell secrets to the Ruskies, but
that Ethel (a mother of two boys) was innocent. The execution had a deep effect on the
American Psyche. if ye want to discuss the veracity or no of selling secrets and the punishment
of death then maybe Julius should have given them away, because the result of the wrangling
after WW2 was the creation of Juggernaut states and it was going to be USSR or USA, personally
the Juggernaut state ,nor the political interference in democracy by a largely unintellectual military
union does not appeal.

As to mc Veigh, well, that conversation never happened cos three months later 9/11 happened
and rather than face its own psychosis the USA decided to pull a Buffy (vampire Slayer) on
anything that was alien to its super-duper disney-land approach to difference and democracy.

Gary Gilmore was executed because he refused to engage with the appeals process that was
available to him. Timothy Mc Veigh was executed because he refused to take art in the appeals
process that was available to him.
Lee Harvey Oswald was more than likely a Patsy. An Iliterate runs the Union; and quite Frankly
when they impeach bush and Cheney, will they have an appeals process available to them?

Gore vidal never quite got to Mailer's level of discourse but has provided a debate foundation
which has significance in our little world and that is why intelligent people accept the US recipe
for 'Peace' when it is based in simplistic notions and cartoonish poses that do not advocate
personal freedom of expression.
Mailer interests because he began a discussion that looked at Gilmore and at the re-institution
of the death penalty. he was executed in 1977 by firing squad- which he requested too.

The Rosenburg boys were orphaned by the execution of their parents and personal
memory and reportage of the 'event' describes a cloud of smoke emerging from
Ethel Rosenburg's head. That is Justice in the American way.

by O.2 Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:49

The Rosenburg execution was for 'espionage' , the case divided America. Later revelations pointed
to evidence that Julius may have done it, two children were orphaned and much like Kennedy
many people knew where they were at the time. The resultant orphaning of the kids and their eventual
placing became subject of controversy. In terms of discussion and balance, one has to ask about
the use of the death penalty to suppress politically motivated crime and how people who are
murdered by the State are made exemplars to create a control deterrent.I am going to publish an
excerpt from 'The Bell Jar' and from 'The Executioner's Song' to show how artists engage with the
issue of how states use fear to normalise their political decisions. In many ways the
Rosenberg and Gilmore cases exposed how political propaganda and public punishment
is used by mass media to create control and is generally more effective than suppression,
a current exemplar is how the US is treating artists and writers in the CAE (Critical Art Ensemble).
Healthy democracies do not require broad spectrum consensus but opposition and criticism.
There is little in the way of healthy discourse amongst oppositional parties in the States.

Ethel and Julius Rosenburg

by curious Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:52

Have read Vidal's articles on McVeigh which are fascinating. All very subjective it has to be said and am not convinced one way or the other regarding whether or not McVeigh was guilty and/or part part of a conspiracy. What is clear is that after Oklahoma (although probably 9/11 was more influential) the "militia" (conservative anti Federal dissent) movement has largely been suppressed.

by Roth Mon Nov 12, 2007 14:05

A very very flawed man but a brilliant man nonetheless.

His excesses were legendary - almost stabbing his wife to death, an ill judged humanitarian campaigning to get a gifted convicted murderer released only for the maniac to kill again, a quixiotic run at Mayor of New York on a platform to make the city the 51st state, his brief boxing career, his consumption of booze and drugs.

Three books I believe stand out -

"The Naked and the Dead" is a multi-stranded novel about the sulky rebellious Lieutenant Hearn who falls foul of the egotistical and godlike General Cumming and the ordinary cowardly human GI's that make up a recon platoon led by the consistently sadistic, at times psychotic but ultimately heroic Sergeant Croft as they fight for their lives against the disease ridden jungle and the Japanese defenders on an island in the Pacific during WW2. The novel asks fundemental questions about how to be a decent human being in an ammoral world, the bleak reality of power politics and is a triumph of post-war noir fiction.

"Oswald's Tale" - tells the story of Lee Harvey Oswald, the enigmatic assassin of President John F. Kennedy. We come to know Oswald intimately and are simultaneous repelled and fascinated. Oswald, the archietypal American loner or drifter, his selfish obession with fame and greatness, his unsatiable disatisfaction with modern life and his murderous self-destruction - a symbol of a dark underbelly, the uncomfortable relationship between civilisation and violence in American life.

"The Gospel According To The Son" - Jesus tells his version of events setting the record straight after centuries of misunderstanding. Simply sublime.

Rest in peace Norman.

by O.2 Mon Nov 12, 2007 18:24

And Mailer questioned the prevalent toxicity which hit a radical new low with the election of a tub-
thumping bible basher who thinks that its a really good idea to kill anything that is different to him.
An image of a different era comes to mind , the White House attracted squirrel types and Nixon's tapes
are juxtaposed with an image of himself attending the anti-Nam protests -out of his teeny mind
on mood altering drugs. Makes you wonder what shit they feed Bush to keep him on the dotted
line....

There are serious issues of engagement that can only be achieved with open political discourse
these have not happened because of stupidity and cupidity which reduces the idea of intelligence
and humanity to 'an Us or Them' cowboy scenario. The worst infection being that the ideality
of political Utopia is achieved without an intergenerational input and without an understanding
of historical movement. US foreign policy is endemic throughout the globe, it is rejected
in its cupidity- makes all the King's Men look like toe-rags (esp Bertie Ahern)
:-)

by Fear Dorcha Thu Nov 15, 2007 00:56

http://www.charlierose.com/home

by O2 Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:52

http://www.internationalpen.org.uk/index.php?pid=33&aid...rrent

RIP Norman Mailer (1923-2007)

It is a pity that more writers do not have the courage to take on the morass of simplicity
that infects the US and that when press statements against the humanitarian crisis
promulgated by the illegal war in Iraq (a Bush and Blair illegality) that it does not get
mainstream media coverage. The media having no interest in developing argument on
issues of war and peace having forgotten its moral responsibility to present news
and not prop systems.

by Ira Coen Sat Dec 15, 2007 23:57

Sunday, 16, 4pm. with Mailer's wife and sons, Jimmy Breslin, Joyce Carol Oates and Frank McCourt
http://wbai.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...mid=1