Socialist Forum : "Lebanon, Hezbollah and Democracy one year after the Israeli attack"

by Jim Tue Aug 14, 2007 03:43

Why is a member of the IPSC posting for the SWP?

by Dan Rather Tue Aug 14, 2007 19:43

The SWP have a very odd position on the Lebanon war last year. They were completely uncritical of Hizbollah's political Islam. SWP refused to raise one objection to their programme. The SWP also called for boycotts of Israeli working class organisations such as the Israeli Trade Union congress. Not a Marxist analysis.

by Mark Little Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:58

"Israeli working class organisations"? Are you talking about the trade union federation that is a part of the Israeli state and totally implicated in the occupation of Palestine? Why don't you condemn them for not supporting the Israeli Labour party next? Some "Marxist analysis"

by Trade unionist Wed Aug 15, 2007 13:34

Mark Israeli workers who are trade unionists and have been involved in protests and strike action against the Israeli government are not part of the the Israeli state. There are very few trade union leaderships around the world who don't give support or assistance to capitalist governments, just look at ICTU and its social partnership policy.

by Mark Little Wed Aug 15, 2007 13:42

No, you obviously don't know much about the Israeli trade union federation - it is literally an arm of the Israeli state, always has been. It's not like union leaderships in other parts of the world, it is part of the Zionist state. Do a bit of research before telling me to "open my eyes"

by prophesy calls... history kneels Wed Aug 15, 2007 15:56

Is anyone else scratching their heads as to why so-called socialists are not supporting the lebanese resistance to imperialism?

Fortunately Hezbollah does not need a certificate of approval from the sectarian arm-chair activists of indymedia. The only certificate of approval they needed AND GOT was the one from the lebanese people in their resistance to israel the occupier.

Hezbollah has defeated israel militarily and bush and blair politically. thus striking a blow for the international working class. Much more than the Israeli trade union vermin could ever do.

by pat c Wed Aug 15, 2007 16:02

Hezbollah should be supported in their military campaign against Israeli aggression. Hezbollah have ineed defeated the,might of the IDF on 2 seperate occasions. But that doesnt mean you have to support their political programme.

Not a good idea to refer to Israeli Trade Unionists as vermin. I agree with you regarding the the Israeli Trade Union Movent as an institution: it is reactionary and racist. It is also one of the leading employers in Israel! But many Jewish workers are themselves subject to terrible exploitation especially those from an African and Asian background.

Dont write these workers off.

by prophesy calls... history kneels Wed Aug 15, 2007 16:28

i agree with you.
I was refering to the trade union leadership as vermin. I mean no disrespect to israeli wokers. I also agree with your point about discrimination against non-white jews. In the racist Israeli state white-european jews are top of the hierarchy,
then the oriental shepardic jews,
then the african jews.
Below them are the so-called israeli arabs
and even below them are the palestinians unfortunate enuf to be living under israeli occupation.

Back to the point on Hezbollah though. i agree they aren't a marxist party however, they are not the crazy islamic fundamentalists rupert murdock's press would have you believe. Infact they are quite progressive, in favour of welfare state, equal rights for women, religious freedom, end to sectarian lebanese state etc.
They call for the destruction of israel as i also call for it. Not as some ethnic clensing but its replacement with a democratic, 1 state palestine where all humans can live together in dignity and equality.

I don't support them politically and i don't think the swp do either. But its a lie to say they are not progressive and therefore deserve some measure of support over some other forces in lebanon. The swp are supporting them in their CONTINUING stuggle against israel and as the democratic will of the lebanese people. They are not (as you and others are suggesting) going around telling everyone to vote for hezbollah or something to that effect.

On the point of the boycott, israel is a racist aparteid state just like south africa and so must have economical and academic boycotts against them. The idea that a boycott will hurt israeli workers is ridiculus and indeed will mostly only hurt israeli farmers (farming land stolen from the palestinians). Any minor inconvenience on israeli workers is nothing compared to the brutal antics of israel against palestinians so wise up!

by Dan Rather Wed Aug 15, 2007 19:57

The Hizbollah should not be immune from criticism. Marxists should support any resistance to Imperialism and indescriminate bombing of civilians. But it's a critical support when nationalist or religious organisations are the focal point of resistance. Marxists should argue for all resistance to be under democratic control and Marxists should argue for socialist and class politics within any resistance movement. The SWP never did this. Hizbollah weakened resistance to the Israeli state by making ordinary working class Israelis subject to random bombing raids. This helped the Israeli government whip up support for their war. Hizbollah's Political Islam (i accept not as extreme as capitalist press say) limited their ability to appeal to comrade workers in Israel and within communally divided Lebanon. There was strong opposition to the Lebanon war within Israel and the record low support for the Israeli government today is a reflection of that. A Lebanese resistance movement against imperialism has to fight back physically but also politically & industrially by supporting Israeli workers against their common enemy - the Israeli state.

The Boycott in South Africa was totally different. Those boycotts were called for by South African workers as a part of their campaign. Boycotts are not the best tool for a workers movement and should only really be used when a working class of a state asks for solidarity in this form in a campaign against their employers. Otherwise it turns into a petty-bourgeois individualistic campaign with self-rightous people not buying oranges they were not going to buy anyway! If the Israeli working class call a boycott against Israeli employers then it should be implemented. How the hell is a boycott of Israeli university staff going to further rights for the Palestinian and Lebanese people? The best way to fight imperialism and capitalism is though workers' struggles - not with pseudo-religious or nationalist organisations or with unfocused boycott campaigns. This is a Marxist analysis - not the SWP's ditching of class politics in order to court political Islam and dissolutionism.

Rather then break links with Israeli Unions we should deepen our roots. This way we can intervene with support for struggles against the Israeli rulers. This would be a class approach.

by prophesy calls...history kneels Thu Aug 16, 2007 00:43

"How the hell is a boycott of Israeli university staff going to further rights for the Palestinian and Lebanese people?"

In the same ways such boycotts worked in South Africa. Boycotts are not just an economic thing but a political statement to the oppressor (israel) and the world that people across other countries are disgusted by said behavior and thus brings pressure on the oppressors to change it. It doesn't matter whether such boycotts have the backing of some goldbricking union or not! Simple really.

P.s. as a matter of fact the swp gives critical support to hezbollah. It does not call on people to vote for hezbollah or join its ranks, it merely supports its actions against israel and as the democratic voice of the lebanese people when they are branded a terrorist organisation by western imperialism. Some other sections of the left such as yourself give absolutely no support to hizbollah and so allow it to be slandered by western imperialism.

There is no secular workers movement in lebanon. You can't support something which does not exist! You call for democracy in the movement but time and time again the people of lebanon give democratic support and a mandate to them and yet you still refuse to recognise it!

Marxism demands nothing less than your support (critcal or otherwise) for the lebanese resistance fronted by hezbollah, whether you like it or not!

by pat c Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:30

"Marxism demands nothing less than your support (critcal or otherwise) for the lebanese resistance fronted by hezbollah, whether you like it or not!"

Have to agree with that. Hezbollah have inflicted a striking military defeat on Israel. The Hezbollah armed wing should be supported in what is a defensive campaign against Israel. The aggression is coming from the Zionists.

I still say you should be careful about giving political backing to the Hezbollah Party. They may not want to introduce an Iranian style Islamic State but they do wish to introduce a form of sharia "law". Under their "law" gays and "adulterous" women would not be executed but they would be flogged and/or imprisoned.

You also do not take into account the demographics of Lebanon. 46% of the population are either Christian or Dhruze. There is no evidence to suggest that even a majority of Lebanese Muslims support the concept of an Islamic State. The majority of Lebasnese people vote for secular parties or for parties which are committed to a Secular State.

Secular society does exist in Lebannon.

by Margaret Thu Aug 16, 2007 16:30 timbell2000 at hotmail dot com

I was delighted to see the support given from the Galway region to the Lebanese people. I myself lived there for many years and had to leave due to the Israeli / Lebanese war. People have no idea of the troubles in Lebanon, but are also ignorant to how wonderful the Lebanese people are. I'm so proud that Irish people are supporting this wonderful country and understanding it's troubles and educating the community around them. Well Done!!

by Dan Rather Thu Aug 16, 2007 22:01

I want to take up points by two previous posters. Pat C said that Hizbullah had a striking military victory against Israel. Indeed they did send in missles to Israel. But it was killed ordinary Israeli working class people! Israeli working class are not Zionists. Israeli working class are not in league with Israeli ruling class. Israeli working class have a common class enemy.

A previous poster said that a boycott of Israeli Colleges is a blow to Zionism. How are Israeli academics Zionists? How are they to blame for the occupation of Palestine and the Lebanon war? Most Israeli academics are regular people that are well educated in their field and want to educate young people and do research. Why boycott working people of Israel that bear no responsibility for their government?

This poster also says that Marxists cannot raise the need for a secular democratic opposition to Israel as it does not exist! So it should not be sought? What next? Workers' rights in China don't exist so we won't call for it! There were also remarks about Hizbullah being endorsed by the majority of Lebanese. In reality this only happened as they were only ones offering any kind of resistance and therefore got mass support for a limited period. The Lebanese government did nothing and are agents of Imperialism. The vast majority of Lebanese do not support Hizbollah's programme. There is also an implication in the above remarks that because an organisation gets mass support they cannot (and should not) be criticised. What next? Fianna Fáil cannot be criticised as they won the election? What next? Hitler should not have be criticised as he won a majority? Socialists should make a class analysis!

In reality a number of posters on this thread do not have a class approach. They factor nationalism into their analysis. Because of this Israelis get put in one box and Lebanese in another. It is the same analysis that lead to 'socialists' bakcing their own ruling class in August 1914 at the start of WW1. The real disctintion should be CLASS. The Lebanese government and the Israeli Government are comrades in reality! The Israeli working class and the Lebanese working class are comrades! Socialists do support resistance to imperialism even if done by nationalists or political islamists... but Socialists always raise CLASS UNITY accross national borders and the need for democratic and secular resistance (esp where it's not present!)

by Sceptic Fri Aug 17, 2007 14:30

"Back to the point on Hezbollah though. In fact they are quite progressive,.... in favour of welfare state, equal rights for women.." PAt C.

I am not so sure their masters in Iran are the essence of progressiveness. If I were a Lebanese woman I would fear them whether or not I was S'hia. See the link. One can do without this sort of "progressiveness".

by Nora Boyle - swp Mon Feb 25, 2008 19:42 norboly at yahoo dot co dot uk

Human rights watch came out equally against the IDF and hezbollah for bombing of civilian targets during the July War.
A muslim village where I've lived in the north of israel called nain was bombed by hezbollah as was a local hospital, other muslim villages (about 30km from the north border),where innocent people who have never been attacked before live (mostly factory/farm workers), nearby areas Afula, Haifa,the galalee were bombed by hezbollah.
It shoudn't need stating that its equally heinous to bomb innocent civilian arab muslims, jews, arab christians, druze or anyone else.
I am disappointed to read that anyone would believe that Socialism includes supporting hezbollah because it most definetly does not.

by Barry - 32 csm Mon Feb 25, 2008 20:52

The Lebanese communist party stood shoulder to shoulder with Hezbollah during the zionist invasion , it fought alongside them . It works with them politically .
Some of the sectarian eejits on the left in this country would be quibbling if Hezbollah were anarchist , stalinist , Maoist or god knows what else . No doubt a few will even turn up and heckle .
The zionist entity is a criminal entity like Apartheid south africa . Zionism and apartheid are racist supremacist ideologies . Israel should be firmly boycotted . Lebanese resistance should be supported and encouraged by any true anti imperialist . That doesnt mean you have to agree with everything about them . But support is critical .