Sorry IRA

by red sp Wed Jul 24, 2002 21:04

In the case of walking through an area which is residental you are absolutely right. But in a case of a road not going through a residental area both sides have to look at it. Of course in Drumcrees case the orange order won't even talk to the residents so in that case they shouldn't be allowed. No talks no walk (which isn't an excuse for intransigence on residents side either). Its a difficult question but whether we like it or not many prodesdants do see it as part of their culture. And comparisons with the KKK etc don't really wash. And banning the marches is precieved as an attack. And slogans such as "no orange feet..." sounds like no prodestants.
Banning marches at all is very dangerous, much of the arguments you hear are quite similar to those that were used to ban civil rights marches in the 60s, public order etc. Bosses would probably find marches against them offensive too. Not to mention christian groups and gay pride etc.
At the end of the day the marches are a sympton of the conflict not the cause even if they are forming a part of the battlefield now.
But we have to be sensitive about the issue, we should not be stoking up a communal conflict which is what the parades issue has become.

by Paul Sun Jul 21, 2002 21:52

I am not a member of the republican movement but as regards orange marches, especially the Garvagy Road, the question has to be asked, why do people want to march through an area where they are not welcome. Is it to give the two fingers to the local residents?

by red sp Sat Jul 20, 2002 16:51

We don't support orange marches any more than we support ancient order of hibernian marches. We simply point out some facts, many prodestants in NI see it as a part of their culture wheter we or you like it or not, and slogans like "no orange feet on ------- road" (add in whatever street you like can read like "no prodestant feet..."
This may not be the way it is meant but it is percieved that way.

As for the CWI in Scotland, their was a split the cwi hald onto a sizeable minority and remains one of the main platforms in the SSP. I ran some candidates for the ssp in the last election, 10% of the total. And Northern Ireland wasn't an issue in the split.

Our critisisms on SF are legitimate critisims. You are probably unaware of the situation as you are in scotland but SF are going to be going into government in the South probably in within the next ten years, this is their strategy, they will most likely share power with Fianna Fail who are the irish equivelant of the tories. Already they share power in local government.
Now you may believe this is okay but how would you feel about an SSP/conservative coalition, would you critisise or not?
In other ways its the opportunism, SF openly oppose privatisation in the south, in the north on the other hand they are privatising schools.
Can we critisie this?
Uncritical tailing of popular movements is the worst aspect of the left, and we would look very stupid supporting SF when they hope in to bed with the tories.

by John Mc Clean - scottish socialist Fri Jul 19, 2002 13:50

and is attacking Sinn Fein in their usual selective way. These are the people who support Orange Order marches as expressions of Protestant culture, for feck sake. No wonder they've lost their Scottish Section

by X Thu Jul 18, 2002 15:58

SF really wind me up. They are a capitalist party that get money from america. Yet they say they are left wing. The privatise in the North and they give out about privatisation in the South. The oppose Bin charges in Dublin and vote them in in Sligo.

SF are not an all-Ireland party. They are a different party with a different agenda in each constituency.

SF are in no way a party of the working class. They see the answer to things as 'leave it to me I'll sort it'. The modern well dressed SF candidate (they get a clothing allowance) says leave it to me, vote for me and I'll sort things out. SF cannot see that the only way to change things is through mass action.

by BlackPope - @Vatikan.corp Thu Jul 18, 2002 13:42 BlackPope at operamail dot com A Cave-Hideout someplace inside occupied Europe - is Buggered !

This whole 'apology' thing is just a cheap exit-strategy from responsability, and a publicity stunt, as Mr. Wojtyla so ably demonstrated with his various blurtings of apology for the persecution of Jews and others by the Catholic Church.

The popes of the day were anything but troubled by such murderous behaviour, and to pretend so in retrospect is sheer hypocrisy.

Likewise, the IRA of the time, in common with ALL OTHER armed groups in 'the North' (including Brit.Army!), cold-bloodedly took into account that a certain number of civilian casualties would be inevitable, possibly even desirable, in furtherance of their respective political goals.

Such was the nature of the conflict and the parties involved. It is worse than useless, and certainly obstructive to understanding, to pretend otherwise.

In my opinion, therefore, this declaration by the IRA is redundant and vain - although possibly demanded or half-forced upon it by SF in return for some offered political concession or advantage not yet apparent. We shall see.

Honesty is the best approach to history. An SA-style TAR-commission would be the best thing could happen to NI.

Schalom, BP

by Justin - Sinn Fein Thu Jul 18, 2002 12:45 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

The IRA did not apologise for existing, but for the suffering caused to the families of non-combatants killed during the last 30 years of the conflict.

Most of the rest of the posts seem to be the same ill-informed micro left nonsense about Sinn Fein not mobilising people when mass mobilisations such as for example the hunger strike commemorations of 2001 brought tens of thousands of people onto the streets or so-called 'punishment attacks' when Sinn Féin was the first party to back CRJ schemes designed to bring this to an end. It's incredibly tedious. Do you guys just have some list of stock posts you cut in every now and again?

by Pro-Bolshevik Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:05

Actually Hydra the Provos still pursue a tactic of individual although it is now mainly electoral individualism. However they are still not above issuing threats or dishing out punishment beatings. Anyway, they don't need to bomb the government into submission to accept their policy of closing hospitals. Opportunist Scum!

by anti-bolshevik Wed Jul 17, 2002 20:38

Hey hydra,anarchists dont believe those things.Get a grip.

by Steve Wed Jul 17, 2002 20:11

I believe that the apology offered to civilians killed by the IRA is an indication that they have abandoned the armed struggle as a means of solving the national question. To that extent, it is a positive development. While I am not a member or supported of the Republican Movement, it has to be said that they did not start the "troubles" in 1969, the IRA as such did not exist at that time, they only really came into existence to provide a defence to nationalist areas which were under attack by the RUC/B Specials and Loyalist mobs.

by hydra Wed Jul 17, 2002 19:45

Hey Dopey 'X',

You wroteSF/IRA have a failed ideology of individualism. They believed (and still do) that individual actions such as killing a few soldiers can change things.

1. If the IRA and SF are all Stirnerite anarchists, then it's happy days! I'm off to the pub to get drunk!

2. Didn't you notice that The provies haven't killed any soldiers, never mind 'a few' in about seven years? Duh! Funny how many people seem to have difficulty registering this: Brit Govt., Unionists, Sunday Independent, Trots of many hues.

3. Or am I responding to an automated bot which just blabs SWP lines randomnly? And is there a difference between that and 75% of real life SWpers... ah the mysteries of philosophjy...

by john - swp / shinner hack Wed Jul 17, 2002 16:44 john.wanker at corporate dot com somewhere 'up north' tapped

we at the swp believe only mass reform of trade unions and all out strike of the working classes against the bosses as we like to call them will result in all out civil war with us killing eoin harris ,just like 1972

is it 1973 yet?

by X Wed Jul 17, 2002 16:40

SF/IRA have a failed ideology of individualism. They believed (and still do) that individual actions such as killing a few soldiers can change things.

SF do not in any way try to mobilise ordinary working people. Their philosophy is "leave it to me I'll sort it out".

The only way to change things is through mass mobilisation of the working class.

by Pat Wed Jul 17, 2002 16:17

Now if only the british army, psni etc would apologise for existing.