Picket at Croke Park, Dublin

by silent majority Tue Feb 20, 2007 15:51

well lets hope this republican protest goes better than the one down O'Connell Street some time ago. I respect your right to protest but all yer doing is stirring up hatred and bitterness. No positive outcome will come of this protest, and if anyone does anything stupid like booing God save the queen I'd fully expect them to be put straight by the Irish fans.

by curious Tue Feb 20, 2007 15:59

Given the type of people who follow rugby I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them join in with GSTQ!

by Jerry Cornelius Tue Feb 20, 2007 16:03

"well lets hope this republican protest goes better than the one down O'Connell Street some time ago."

The riot there was started by the Garda Public "Order" Unit. They attacked a section of the crowd, there was a panic and ordinary Gardai removed barriers to let people on to O'Connell Street so they would not be crushed.

"I respect your right to protest but all yer doing is stirring up hatred and bitterness. "

Protesting against the playing of an imperial anthem and the flying of an imperial flag does not imho display either bitterness or hatred.

"No positive outcome will come of this protest, "

I hope some ordinary English fans will learn something about their own countrys imperial past.

"and if anyone does anything stupid like booing God save the queen I'd fully expect them to be put straight by the Irish fans."

Well, many of the Irish fans, even those from the South are of a certain mentality. Being of a forelock tugging tradition I am sure they would be upset by any booing of the song of the English queen. But if they were to assault any protesters then I am quite certain that it would be the last time that Rugby was played in Croke Park.

I have nothing against the English people, its just their political leadership I detest. I like Rugby as a sport but I have contempt for the majority of those who follow it in Ireland. I mean that on a Class basis.

by Meehawl Tue Feb 20, 2007 17:19

Result of the match, 19-16 in favour of Ireland !

by John Boy Tue Feb 20, 2007 17:31

"The riot there was started by the Garda Public "Order" Unit. They attacked a section of the crowd, there was a panic and ordinary Gardai removed barriers to let people on to O'Connell Street so they would not be crushed"

What an absolute load of revisionist nonsense. Seriously.

by John Summers Tue Feb 20, 2007 17:51

It is amazing that after all these years people still protest over things that happened so many years ago,what about the hundreds of innocent people that were killed by Sinn Fein/IRA in the UK by bombs that exploded with out warnings and that only happend in the 70s and 80s.

I never heard the British say we could not play the Irish Anthem in Twickenham. Would you ever move on and forget it no one will give a damn when you are dead about your protest.

John Summers
Dublin

by Etain - shell to sea Tue Feb 20, 2007 17:54

fair play to ye all , will be joining your protest after ours finishes

by Jerry Cornelius Tue Feb 20, 2007 17:54

I was there, were you? It started as I wrote above. When the crowd were on the street, some of them sat on the road. They were then attacked by the Public "Order" Unit. This enraged the crowd who were behind the barriers on the other side of the street. THey broke through the barricades and the rest is history.

Would there have been a riot anyway? I don't know. But the stupidity and the thugishness of the Oublic "Order" Unit certainly started the riot. A few guys from the crowd threw fruit at Gardai (I saw one Garda pick up an orange, I hope he was retaining it as evidence rather than to eat later), to send in the Public "Order" Unit against them was a total over-reaction.

by Caobhin Tue Feb 20, 2007 18:05

Were you there "John boy"? Where'd you get your analysis of 25/2/06 from then? The Daily Star? RTE?

The first violence came when the cops started batoning people at the corner of Parnell Sq/O'Connell st to try clear the way for the Love (two-thirds of) Ulster crowd. There was jeering and a few bangers thrown before that but the missiles etc only came after the cops started battering people.

You would have missed that from your tabloids but don't let the facts get in the way of your blinkered view. Seriously.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Feb 20, 2007 19:58

"The first violence came when the cops started batoning people at the corner of Parnell Sq/O'Connell st to try clear the way for the Love (two-thirds of) Ulster crowd. There was jeering and a few bangers thrown before that but the missiles etc only came after the cops started battering people. "

"I was there, were you? It started as I wrote above. When the crowd were on the street, some of them sat on the road. They were then attacked by the Public "Order" Unit. This enraged the crowd who were behind the barriers on the other side of the street. THey broke through the barricades and the rest is history."

I was present that day as well . The above two quotes are representations of the events as they occured , as I witnessed for myself . It is obviously hard for some people to believe that 'the Guardians of law and order' could behave in such a fashion but that is how the riot began on that day .

Sharon .

by Nigel Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:46

Forget the past will u all. The ireland game will be a great occasion and will be watch by ppl on a world scale so don't let ur country down by causing trouble. The National anthem will last to minutes the Ieland will beat them badly in the match.

by John Thu Feb 22, 2007 13:16

Why is it that you Republicans keep referring to everything in the past. Can ye not let bygones be bygones. None of you were there in 1798 or 1916 or any other bloody time for that matter. We can all read the history books and are all well enough versed on what went on. I happen to LOVE my country and am quite willing to show it off, with the gems like Croker, to anyone who will look. THAT is something to be proud of.

Why don't you put your energy into showing the English what the 'Paddies' have achieved without any of their influence, rather than showing them some stupid ignorant chip on your shoulder. None of the people in England were around when the Tans were rampaging, yet we have managed to educate my English clients in a peacful manner using newspaper articles and through films like 'Windy Barley'. My grandfather is still old enough to remember the tans and he doesn't give a shite if the English play Croker - yet none of you have probably ever received a clip around the ear from an English bobby.

If your protest kicks off like the last one, I will be severely embarassed to be Irish and you lot will have put another mark of shame on our great country.

Put the protest aside and have a drink, for God's sake. You will only attract an element interested in a fight and that will do nobody any good.

by Are you John Unionist? Thu Feb 22, 2007 13:21

John Summers: "what about the hundreds of innocent people that were killed by Sinn Fein/IRA in the UK by bombs"

No organisation called Sinn Fein/IRA exists or existed or ever carried out attacks in Britain or elsewhere John. You must have dreamt that one up.

by i don't like rugby and empire but... Thu Feb 22, 2007 14:11

there is no need for a protest as the english anthem will be booed out. move on from the anglo-irish war, concentrate on getting the new empires out of ireland .aka the large corporations.(shell) they are just as bad as the british empire. the real anti-empire protest is in parnell square during the match. SHELL OUT

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu Feb 22, 2007 17:17

Hi John !

" Why is it that you Republicans keep referring to everything in the past. Can ye not let bygones be bygones. None of you were there in 1798 or 1916 or any other bloody time for that matter."

The point is , John , that this issue is not yet in "the past" , not yet ready to be consigned to the "bygone" tray ! Unfortunately .

(Post Script : Myself and a good few others will be taking part in the 'Shell 2 Sea' protest for an hour or so before we make our way to the 'Croke Park' protest.)

Sharon .

by John Boy Thu Feb 22, 2007 17:29

This match is about ireland showing off this magnificent stadium to the woorld. It's a veritablke collosseum and I'd rather the opposition be regarded as inconsequential or little more than an interesting aside.

What good does a protest do? Honestly?

Plenty of non-GAA events that have passed off in Croker and no one has batted an eye-lid, regardless of nationality.

It'd be too much to ask people not to boo GSTQ (not so much out of respect for it but because it's more dignified) but I'd posit that the English could feel equally as valid in booing Amhrán na bhFiann because of the atrocities carried out in England in the name of Ireland.

by Paddy Thu Feb 22, 2007 19:16

I have some English friends who were coming over for a nice weekend and a few pints. Do you honestly think that I can bring them to the city center with all this shite going to kick off ? I can't even show them around our wonderful capital without these bloody protests causing havok everywhere.

To Sharon et al - do you HONESTLY believe that this is going to remain peaceful ?
Do you HONESTLY think that it is going to be safe walking around the city center that night, especially if, God forbid, England win ?
Or do you secretly hope that one side or the other turns things into a pitched battle so that it gets into worldwide news for your 'cause' ?

It's a game of bloody rugby for God's sake. Go protest outside the DUP offices until they partake in a meaningful government in the North. It's about time that you Republicans wake up and realise that the North is only going to be governed by consensus, and you won't get that until the DUP sign up.

Leave politics out of sport and let us enjoy our day with other like-minded, peaceful, ENGLISH friends.

by Paraic Thu Feb 22, 2007 19:37

Paddy, I think it will be peaceful, esp as Northern Brit Supremo Peter Hain is planning to lay a wreath to the memory of those massacred there on 21st November 1921.

It will be a big well-attended protest but well stewarded and marshalled, that's my prediction.

Sinn Fein officials I know are playing it down - another sign that it will be peaceful.

And it would be the other way round: If England lose their fans could start trouble but the Gardai are well up for that !

You should know that we Irish are good losers !

The playing of GSTQ will be booed there - and all over Ireland, but that will be all - forecast, no more than the usual trouble after any match

So, enjoy Dublin with your friends, wherever they come from !

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu Feb 22, 2007 21:19

Hi Paddy !

"To Sharon et al - do you HONESTLY believe that this is going to remain peaceful ? "
YES !
I will have two young children with me at both events (S2S and 'Croke Park') and would not bring them knowlingly into a dangerous situation . Any 'trouble' will not be started by either set of protestors .

" Do you HONESTLY think that it is going to be safe walking around the city center that night, especially if, God forbid, England win ? "
I honestly have no idea about that one , Paddy - I was only referring to the events during that afternoon .

" Or do you secretly hope that one side or the other turns things into a pitched battle so that it gets into worldwide news for your 'cause' ? "
No , Paddy - you are reading us wrong or , more likely , 'reading' about us in the 'wrong' newspapers . The RSF people and their supporters will be present to make a political point , that's all .

Sharon .

by Paddy Thu Feb 22, 2007 21:28

Padraic,

I certainly hope you are right, but don't think that the rugby fans are anything like the football hoolies. I was there in Twickenham last year, a guest of our English friends, and the and hospitality shown to me was fantastic, even though they lost. Ireland has been famed for its hospitality in the past, lets make sure we don't lose that distinction.

Come on people. Put away the past in the name of sport, at least for a weekend, get behind the team and show the nation that brings the largest number of tourists to this shore exactly how good an Irish welcome can be. We ain't handing over our souls by doing so, nor are we capitulating to an old colonial power by doing so, and our country can only benefit as a result.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu Feb 22, 2007 21:37

Hi again Paddy !

" Put away the past ... "

But it's not 'the past' .

That's the point RSF are making .

Sharon .

by Paddy Thu Feb 22, 2007 21:50

Sharon,

Fair points. I do accept that there are those that want to protest peacefully, and there will be those like you that even make it a family affair. However, the one thing that protests do is bring people together. No matter where the protest, and no matter what the aims or how well it is marshalled, a protest can always deliver a flashpoint from where people, brought together by the protest, use it as a staging for something not wanted by the original protestors. If there was no protest, there would be no gathering of people and no potential for a flashpoint.

Aside from that, I still can't understand how you are protesting against people that are simply there for the sport. It is not the average rugby fan that is holding up progress on devolution in the North, it's the bloody DUP. Have the English managed to turn this into a political thing ? The only people I have heard talking about it are the Irish. As far as the English are concerned it is just another game.

However, as I said earlier, if things turn nasty it becomes a worldwide event and suddenly your protest gets the ears of the world. To use sport in this way is a little cheap, in my opinion. A protest outside of government buildings would suffice. Please don't politicise a simple game and the people who love the competitiveness of it all.

by Paddy Thu Feb 22, 2007 22:02

Sharon,

Am I missing something ?

You (and RSF), keep referring to the situation in the North as though it is as bad as it was in the 70's and 80's. Did I not see the military post in Crossmaglen go last week. Did I not see Sinn Fein sign up to policing in the North. As far as I can see, the only holdups are the bloody DUP. They are going to keep asking for more and more. Anyone can see it.

Why do you keep blaming the average English person. I have lived and worked with these people on and off for 20 years. My sister still lives there. They have only ever shown me consideration and welcome and provided me with a career which I could then use to come back to my home and help my own economy with. None have ever cared about the North. They are as different to Northern Unionists and Loyalists as you and I. Have I been meeting the wrong type of person.

Should I have gone to a Conservative heartland in Kensington or sought out a Combat 18 crew to find the two poles of people that give a damn about Brittania and its old colonial past ? These people are in the minority in England now, at least that's the impression I get.

Why is there not more angst directed towards the DUP and continual protests about their position in the peace process ?

What the hell am I missing ?

by Anrai - Ard Drui Baile Atha Cliath, ODI. Thu Feb 22, 2007 22:50 The Liberties of Dublin

The Dublin Grove of Druids,of the ODI, The Order of Druids in Ireland, will march to oppose the Destruction of Tara by the M3 Motorway, on Saturday, through Dublin City Centre, to stand with our comrades who oppose the sell-out to Shell at Parnell Square, where we call on all the Pagan, Wiccan and Dissenter Communities, Covens and Groves of Dublin to assemble and join with us.

Members of the Combined Save Tara Campaigns, whether Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter or Pagan are all invited to join us there to protest against the massive sell-out of Irish Heritage, Natural Resources and our Gaelic Culture.

We call on all our British brothers and sisters in Dublin that day to join us in a mass demonstration to preserve all that is valuable in Irish Heritage, , National Resources and Celtic Culture. Let us take on Capitalist Imperial Globalisation together, hands joined across the sea.

We shall together, hand in hand, in prayer of Peace, then march to Croke Park to honour our November Dead of 21st November 1920.

We march not against the English people, we march to demonstrate to the corrupt anti-Irish Heritage anti-Irish Government who sell us out that there are still Irish people in Ireland who will stand up to their corrupt tyranny. .

God Save Tara, God Save Rossport, God Save Ireland !

Anrai, Ard Drui Baile Atha Cliath. ODI.

by Sharon . - Individual . Thu Feb 22, 2007 23:16

Hi again Paddy !

" Fair points. I do accept that there are those that want to protest peacefully, and there will be those like you that even make it a family affair. However, the one thing that protests do is bring people together. No matter where the protest, and no matter what the aims or how well it is marshalled, a protest can always deliver a flashpoint from where people, brought together by the protest, use it as a staging for something not wanted by the original protestors. If there was no protest, there would be no gathering of people and no potential for a flashpoint."
- If there was no need for a protest , Paddy , there would be no gathering of people etc .

"Aside from that, I still can't understand how you are protesting against people that are simply there for the sport. "
- There is no-one that I know that is protesting against people who follow sport - that is simply not the case ! The protest will highlight the fact that the visiting team are representative of a country which claims jurisdiction over part of this isle .

"It is not the average rugby fan that is holding up progress on devolution in the North, it's the bloody DUP. Have the English managed to turn this into a political thing ? The only people I have heard talking about it are the Irish. As far as the English are concerned it is just another game."
- But it has always been "a political thing" : the foreign claim of jurisdiction [mentioned above] is a political claim , enforced by military means .

" However, as I said earlier, if things turn nasty it becomes a worldwide event and suddenly your protest gets the ears of the world. To use sport in this way is a little cheap, in my opinion."
- Open your eyes , Paddy - sport is just one of the avenues 'used' by those who attempt to present as 'normal' the fact that part of their country is under foreign jurisdiction . "Cheap" on their part , yes .

"A protest outside of government buildings would suffice. Please don't politicise a simple game and the people who love the competitiveness of it all."
- And protests have been held there before and , no doubt , will be again . Mr Hain was willing to "politicise" the game by making what he termed a "gesture" to what happened in Croke Park in 1920 , but Mr Blair apparently advised against . I obviously missed your post requesting that he not do so ?

"Am I missing something ?"
- The elephant in the corner .

" You (and RSF), keep referring to the situation in the North as though it is as bad as it was in the 70's and 80's. Did I not see the military post in Crossmaglen go last week."
- Has the jurisdictional claim been removed and British troops withdrawn ?

" Did I not see Sinn Fein sign up to policing in the North. "
- ...some of us seen that twenty-one years ago !

" As far as I can see, the only holdups are the bloody DUP. They are going to keep asking for more and more. Anyone can see it. "
- Go for the bigger picture , Paddy ie those that sustain not only the DUP , but partition itself .

" Why do you keep blaming the average English person. "
- Sir , you wrong me , and republicans , and republicanism , by that remark .

" I have lived and worked with these people on and off for 20 years. My sister still lives there. They have only ever shown me consideration and welcome and provided me with a career which I could then use to come back to my home and help my own economy with. None have ever cared about the North. They are as different to Northern Unionists and Loyalists as you and I. Have I been meeting the wrong type of person. "
- "None have ever cared about the North" ? And you yourself "don't care" enough to try and convince them that perhaps they should care ? What else is their government doing in their name that they "don't care" about ?

" Should I have gone to a Conservative heartland in Kensington or sought out a Combat 18 crew to find the two poles of people that give a damn about Brittania and its old colonial past ? These people are in the minority in England now, at least that's the impression I get."
- That "old colonial past" is not , Paddy . You are still ignoring that elephant .

" Why is there not more angst directed towards the DUP and continual protests about their position in the peace process ? "
- The DUP are a symptom , Paddy - Westminster is the 'cause' . Level your 'angst' in that direction .

" What the hell am I missing ?"
- Partition , foreign jurisdictional claim , armed British troops on Irish streets , and , I suspect , over 800 years of history . Not "missing" , Paddy - "ignoring" , I think .

Sharon .

by Luke Eastwood Fri Feb 23, 2007 09:45

One day the north will probably join the republic, I hope so. I can't see what good protesting at a rugby match will do. The peace process is gradually dragging the unionists towards the goals of the Irish majority, why not let that continue?

Anger and bitterness and vengeful attitudes towards the UK will not help anyone and will serve to alienate those we have to negociate with. I shall not be going as I think it will be an own goal!

by Commander Fri Feb 23, 2007 14:04

God Save The Queen was played 4 times during the Special Olympics in Croker not too long ago. Where were you then with your boo's, taunts and jeers. You'll pick on the rugger fans but not on a few handicaped people, and you say you want equal justice for all. A sad sad bunch of people.

by Paraic Fri Feb 23, 2007 16:15

We'll leave you, Commander RN, to pick on a few handicapped. Who better qualified than you whose warship has manufactured many handicapped people in your time !

by CJH Fri Feb 23, 2007 17:52

Did ye secrelty open a timewarp to get some of the posters on this?? Only one that seems to be making any sense and logic is Paddy.

by Con Connor - Ireland's Druidschool Fri Feb 23, 2007 19:35 info at druidschool dot com

Josephine Hayden is right. Fourteen men were murdered by British forces (may we never forget this, forgive - yes, forget NO) in Croke Park on November 21, 1920. This was a punishment and deliberate terrorism of a population by the armed forces of a foreign power. The English occupation of Ireland goes on in six counties of Ireland - commonly called the North.

Josephine Hayden is right when she says that the intention to play God Save the Queen, (the English national anthem) and the flying of the English flag over Croke Park insults their memory and I suggest even attempts to erase truth.

Irish people have the right to self determination and to want British control out of Ireland. Our true history is important to retain our national identity. Good luck with the protest, may it be peaceful and may the unarmed Fourteen men who were murdered in Croke Park on November 21, 1920 by the British Army never be forgotten.

The link below tells the true story of the potato crop failure that was used as a method of landclearing by the same foreign power that murdered 14 men in Croke Park, Nov 21, 1920. There was no famine - that is pure spin - there was plenty of food. Read and weep, but never forget.

by Paraic Fri Feb 23, 2007 20:21

Thank you for that, friend, I have been printing and circulating that important historical document for years free of charge.

The enemy mainstream media has kept up a barrage for the past few weeks that there will be violence in Dublin tomorrow - in a clever ploy to try to frighten our mass support away from joining our legitimate protest.

There will be no violence whatsoever as Oglaigh na h-Eireann ensure total discipline and peace throughout. The Garda Public Order Squad will be idle, they will have nothing to do, so they might as well go and drown their disappointment !

The most disappointed of all will be the brave "volunteers" of Provo Sinn Fein/ IRA Jokers, who are ordered to stay away from the picket by Dublin upper-middle class darling Mary Lou McDonald MEP, the greatest chancer, opportunist and careerist in their massively depleted ranks, a cunning woman who threatens to deprive Dublin North Central of one of Ireland's finest TDs, Tony Gregory.

The pathetic Provo volunteers are under orders from Mary Lou, who looks forward to being a Minister in an FF-Provo Government, not to attend in case they frighten off her cushy middle-class Dublin vote.

Ta an Firinne ag Josephine Hayden - Maith a bhean !

by Matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 21:34

I honestly cannot believe what im hearing.

You seem to miss the point both about the present and the past.

In the context of sport, Ireland should forfeit the match for even thinking that the playing of a guest national anthem would be a problem. If it is such a dishonour to the memory of the dead why the hell are you choosing to play your matches at such an emotive arena. You are a disgrace to the six nations and all that is good about Rugby.

The English should ban the French from playing there anthem I suppose? Napolean wasnt exactly going to stop across the water you know. And while we are on it how do the English stomach 1000s of Germans turning up in London -a place which just over 60 years ago they wanted to wipe off the face of the earth?? Thats what you call a real grudge - when you know a country wont just shoot a few of you but erase your very existence, which from some of the posts on this forum sounds like it would of been well supported this side of the sea. no this is sport and life moves on. You are a disgrace. You dishonour the deads memory by your attitude. Freedom is Freedom - not picking and choosing when you wish freedom to be an option. Something I believe Irish and British have fought for over many centuries whether it be a free Ireland or to save the world from dictatorship.

As for the past - you show me one country that hasnt committed atrocities and I will show you a country that is lucky.
Freedom has never come cheap. In the days of Empire had it not been Britain ruling Ireland it would of been France or Spain or any other country simply because if they didnt someon else would of. The USA are doing it now thru business and military might. China next?
NO one should ever forget the sacrifices of those who died for what they believed but belief itself can be questioned if another persons belief is different.

England & Britain and have a proud history which has often been tainted by dark deeds. But then again so does the USA, Australia, Japan, Germany, France and Ireland. I could go on and on.However When the real the dark clouds threatened to overcome the world they stood against the evil. They stood alone until The USA had no choice but to join in.

God Save the Queen?? More like God Save us from people who cannot realise the world order has moved on. The British have had to do it and so now must you.

If I was head of the English Rugby Union I would be outraged that the Irish Rugby Union has even allowed this situation to arise.

I thank you.

by Meehawl Fri Feb 23, 2007 21:41

IRELAND has no Dark Deeds, we never invaded any country or persecuted any people on Earth - so you know where you can stick your lecture, Mate !

by Matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 21:48

I very good point. Your right, Ireland as a country has no dark deeds if we are going to be picky. Just some of the people in it. Those who thought that fighting for a free Ireland warranted the massacre of innocent British civillians with out warning and with out guilt because their cause was greater then that of a tiny childs right to live.

Or are you trying to say that those who died in the IRA bombings were part of the British Establishment??

Dark deeds or justifiable murder?

by Meehawl Fri Feb 23, 2007 21:58

Such brutal terrorist acts were not, and still are not, sanctioned or legitimised by the President, Parliament or People of Ireland. They were mostly outside our control, carried out by citizens of the U.K. from a part of the U.K. called "Northern Ireland".

Irish Governments and Police extended themselves to the very last in the apprehension, trial (before the Special Criminal Court in Dublin) and sentencing of these terrorists.

Anything else, before you stick your lecture up further ?

by Matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 22:15

Interesting how both replies to my original post have not argued against any of my points. Just merely insulted me.

As for your belief that the Irish Government did all it could to prevent these atrocities then you are deluded. Thats like trying to say the Palestinian government arent supporting hamas! Which of course officially they dont.

Uk citizens??? yes you are deluded. These people did not want to be British Citizens otherwise what were they fighting for? Oh of course they were killing Innocent british civillians in the name of the Queen.They did it in the name of a free Ireland. Whether you personally think thats nothing to do with you should mean that you are more then happy to keep the Northern part of Ireland British then?

Or am I right in thinking that the millions of loyalists in the North dont have an opinion?

by Meehawl Fri Feb 23, 2007 22:27

They are your UK Citizens - what do you expect Governments of the Republic to do, send armed Garda Officers over the Border into your UK after them, be confronted by your Brit armed forces, exchange fire and create an international incident for which the Irish Government would have to apologise. If not, give me your scenario, what are we to do? Our Garda/Army have no powers over the Irish Border in the U.K.

Regarding a United Ireland I don't personally think that the time is right just yet, as the minds of many religious Catholics here in the Republic would have to adjust to be fair to a million Northern Protestants.

Sorry, their yours "

by Matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 22:38

thanks Meehawl - a much better post.

We now have dialogue. I agree, the Irish government were in a difficult position, but are you seriously saying that there werent members of the government that werent happy with what was going on in the North.

They were fighting for the very same thing Southern Ireland had been fighting for. Free Ireland. Are you seriously saying that many of these IRA members werent going over the border so that the British couldnt get them??

Thats like saying that Ireland didnt help the nazis in WW11! It happened - fact, (which in my opinion is a pretty dark deed)

This isnt a lecture im just not prepared to see only one side of events. Theres always two sides to an argument.

As for your post on united Ireland - its probably the most sense ive heard in years. Maybe you should get up to Stormont and sort it out!

yours in debate

matd

by Brian Johnson Fri Feb 23, 2007 22:46

Look Matd

You are losing the plot, their is only a very tiny amount of people who are against this match, 99.99% of Irish people are looking forward to a great game. dont forget in the UK there are hundreds af gobshite organisations who protest at everything so dont get yourself into a temper.

Come back on Sunday and tell us what you think, I cant wait for the match its going to be a brilliant occasion for all sports people.

Regards
Brian Johnson
Bray

by matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 22:52

Fair point- maybe.

Your right in terms of the UK protests as well but I am merely responding to some of the posts on here and to mere thought of banning a guests national anthem.

maybe it is just a minority but as in all cases the minorities cry is heard the loudest. If it is the case that this is a minority then its a shame its getting so much headlines both in Eire and the UK.

At the end of the day we are all brothers looking forward to a great rugby match. National anthems and all !

by Brian Johnson Fri Feb 23, 2007 22:58

As in the UK the whole thing is being blown out of all proporation by the media they are looking for a story,there are only 50 to 100 expected to protest tomorrow, in my opinion its the media who are responsible for all this hype, at the end of the day it will be a very damp squib indeed and the Irish and English can move on and leave these dick heads behind stuck in their own time warp

by Matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:00

here here brian!

score prediction?

by Meehawl Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:03

1. Obviously you refer to Ministers Boland, Blaney and Haughey, sacked by then Taoiseach Jack Lynch, thrown into cells in the Bridewell in Dublin overnight, tried and acquitted, using high-paid high-powered lawyers, in the famous Arms Trial, acquitted, all now dead and not missed.

2. Helping Nazis - the IRA were refuelling U-Boats off the West Coast of Ireland, all caught and interned by Taoiseach Eamon DeValera, who, incidentally, is believed to this day to have ordered the hanging of IRA Men in Mountjoy , Dublin.

3. Irish Government during the war, Neutral, a benevolent neutrality towards the allies, including Britain. Every single Nazi spy who landed in Eire was detected and interned for the duration of the war, while allied aitmen in difficulty, who crash-landed in Ireland, were spirited over the Border by the Gardai in the dead of night - to a grateful RAF. The entire Dublin Fire Brigade were directed by DeValera to go to the aid of the North when Belfast was bombed by the Nazis - we're good neighbours !

4. Almost all IRA men on the run in the Republic were rounded up by the Garda Special Branch (who work closely with N.I. Police and Scotland Yard), tried and sentenced here in the Republic for atrocities, crimes etc committed in N.I. - under British-Irish legislation and agreement.

As far as I understand legislation for "hot pursuit" after terrorists over the Border was drawn up by both governments, but never enacted by either.

Now would be a good time to re-introduce it.

But they're still yours !

by Brian Johnson Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:04

I wont predict a score but I think we will win, but whatever happens I hope its a great game and one we can all be proud of. I really think its a great day for both Countries and will bring us closer than ever .

by matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:11

sorry meehawl but its well documented.....................hardly showers the irish government in glory does it?? Government official position and reality are two different things. We both know this. You think that the atrocities committed by the Black and Tans were official British Policy??? You think they knew it went on??? Course they did............

Ireland 'welcomed Hitler's henchmen'

By Tom Peterkin, Ireland Correspondent
Last Updated: 1:47am GMT 10/01/2007

A disturbing aspect of Ireland's history has been uncovered by research finding that leading Nazis were sheltered and welcomed by the Irish establishment after the war.

A rogues' gallery that included fascists, Nazi collaborators and war criminals came to Ireland, including some who flourished and became respected members of the community.

A documentary to be screened on Irish television tonight illustrates growing willingness amongst mainstream public opinion to face up to Ireland's role in providing a haven for war criminals.
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In the past, there has been a tendency to overlook stories of Hitler's henchmen being protected while they made their homes in Ireland or using it as a staging post to escape to America.

"It is very interesting that there is now much more willingness to raise these issues about those sections of the Irish population, who were sympathetic to the Nazi cause," said Paul Bew, Professor of Irish Politics at Queen's University, Belfast.

"I am glad people are focusing on this now. It has been a repressed theme in Irish history," added Prof Bew, who also deals with the subject in his book The Oxford History of Ireland, which is to be published later this year.

Otto 'Scarface' Skorzeny, once described as Hitler's favourite soldier and the most dangerous man in Europe, was feted by the Dublin social glitterati.

Fourteen years after he had rescued Mussolini from a hilltop fortress in 1943, Skorzeny arrived at a reception in his honour held at Portmarnock Country Club.

The cream of Dublin society attended the event, including a young politician, Charles Haughey, who was later to become Ireland's most controversial Prime Minister.

The two-part television documentary Hidden History on RTE, Ireland's national broadcaster, will tell the story of Skorzeny, who went on to raise prize-wining lambs in Co Kildare.

Skorzeny made his name by raiding an Italian castle where Mussolini was held captive. Descending on the fortress in gliders, Skorzeny's men succeeded in freeing the dictator.

A year later, Skorzeny was involved in rounding up and torturing members of the German resistance after their failed attempt on Hitler's life.

He was acquitted of war crimes by a US court, but remained a prisoner because other countries wanted to prosecute him.

He escaped from prison, fleeing to Spain before buying a farm Martinstown House, near the Curragh, where he lived for a decade.

The programme is presented by Cathal O'Shannon, an Irish RAF veteran who feels that anti-British sentiment in Ireland led to Nazis receiving a warmer welcome than he did when he came home after the war.

He believes between 100 and 200 people with Nazi connections passed through Ireland during the Cold War.

Albert Folens, who died in 2003 at 86 after founding Ireland's leading academic text-book publisher, was involved in the Gestapo and Waffen SS.

The documentary claims he was a volunteer in the Waffen SS Flemish legion, serving on the eastern front until he was wounded.

After treatment in an SS hospital, he joined the Gestapo and claimed to have worked at its Brussels headquarters as a translator.

His name is said to have appeared on the US army's Central Registry of War Criminals and Security Suspects. Folens always denied any involvement in torture or inhumane treatment.

Arrested by the British Army in Germany, he was sentenced to 10 years after a military trial. But he escaped after 30 months and fled to the Republic on a false passport.

The so-called 'Butcher of the Balkans', Andrija Artukovic, was another who sought and found sanctuary in Ireland, spending his time in the Dublin suburb of Rathgar in 1947.

According to the programme, Artukovic, a Croatian Nazi, was given safe passage to Ireland with the help of a Franciscan order.

Artukovic served as interior minister in the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia. He was provided with immigration papers under a false name before arriving in Ireland, where he posed as a history professor before moving to the United States.

Decades later he was extradited to Yugoslavia and was sentenced to death for opening concentration camps and being involved in the genocide of up to one million innocent people. The sentence was not carried out because the authorities deemed him too ill.

Pieter Menten, a Dutch Nazi war criminal, moved to a Co Waterford mansion in 1964 before he was eventually tried and imprisoned. After his prison term, the Irish government would not allow him back.

Helmut Clissmann was a World War II German spy involved in failed missions with the IRA. He later became a successful Dublin businessman.

by Meehawl Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:40

Yes, I saw both programmes presented by Cathal O'Shannon. However, after the war former top Nazis made their way into almost every country in the world, especially those countries who were dominated by the Vatican under Pius X11 who was indeed a pro-Nazi Pope.

And the Irish Government after the war were totally dominated by the Catholic Hierarchy - for instance, DeValera used to attend at the residence of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid every Friday for advice and "orders" - it was a time of anti-communist hysteria in the West, McCarthyism etc in the USA, Soviet spies in the very top ranks of the British Establishment, do I need to go on....

Things are very different in the Irish Government today, except that Prime Minister Bertie Ahern is an avid Catholic, turned even against his own native Irish tradition and culture, driving the M3 motorway through the Tara Valley etc - to which you and the entire Northern Ireland political establishment should object, Tara is yours too !

But then, wasn't Tony Blair tripped up by the Press slipping into mass in Westminister cathedral, on his own one fine morning! Up to that he had made the excuse that he liked to attend mass with his wife and children who are Catholics, sorry about that Tony, but that's probably why you and Bertie are such soul mates ?

Bertie is a fair man, but I'm afraid we'll have to wait until after he and Tony are gone before we effectively consider and plan an Ireland united by heart and mind.

We can't all be all be perfect. I don't personally think that the time is right for the singing of GSTQ at Croke Park tomorrow (Saturday), yet I have a ticket for the Hogan Stand ! I have nothing against GSTQ, it's just not wise, hope I'm wrong.

The upcoming Northern Elections, I'd be inclined to vote, if I were a unionist, for either the Official Unionist Party, or the Alliance Party - and for the SDLP or Alliance if I were a Catholic. Then you'd see a little change for the good.

by matd Fri Feb 23, 2007 23:58

My point exactly - no ones perfect - believe me I have a load full of articles on Irish support for the nazis.

As for why its not the right time - why play it there? The last thing the english Rugby team want to do is walk into that hostile atmosphere and cause offence. But its there right to have their national anthem played.

It would be like the Poles building a stadium in Aushwitz and then playing Germany! I really dont get it.

I really hope this is just a minority thing. Will you be the same when the Welsh go there next year?? After all thats where prisoners were sent. Or is this just another case of English bashing thats so popular these days?

We in the Uk feel warmly about our brothers across the sea - Im half Irish myself and class myself as a true Briton and proud to come from these great Islands of ours whether they be British or Irish run.

by Meehawl Sat Feb 24, 2007 00:41

GOTCHA ! And you have no articles on the thousands of Southern Irish Catholics who voluntarily joined the British Armed Forces to fight the Nazis in WW11, including the bold Cathal O'Shannon in the RAF, also spitfire ace Wing Commander Billy "Paddy" Finucane from Dublin, spitfire ace in the Battle of Britain, downed in the channel in 1942 after more kills than any other fighter pilot. Monty and several Field Marshalls were Southern Irish. Crack Regiment, the Irish Guards, most of them from the South. I could go on all night.

There's nothing wrong with playing the match at Croker, but isn't GSTQ such a terrible dirge ?

The atmosphere INSIDE Croke Park will be fabulous - what worries us is what might erupt on the streets outside right down into the city centre.

The Welsh are regarded in Ireland as Celtic cousins, that's the difference. But the English and the Irish get on fabulously these days. However we Irish will never understand your slavish devotion to Royalty. We're far too democratic-minded for all of that.

You should become a Druid - the last time these islands were united was under the ancient Druids of Ireland, Britain and Gaul (France). And go an live on Iona !

I have an English Druid friend living here in Southern Ireland for about 20 years, from Devon. He jumps out of his chair whenever Ireland scores and tears of joy form in his eyes - his wife, from Liverpool, is even worse ! She's a real anti-royalist, says the Royals should be sent to Warrington and put to work ! (You can't deny that millions of English people think the same).

Even worse he's rooting for Ireland tomorrow !

He's Chief of the Hibernian Order of Druids, HOOD. Let me know if you want to contact , join up and head for Iona (Islands Of the North Atlantic). Cheers, Meehawl.

by Matd Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:23

This is my point exactly meehawl. Good and bad things get done by all countries- Those Southern Irish who joined up with the British were true patriots - And i dont mean to the crown but to freedom.They saw the bigger picture and realised the British Cause was bigger then their own. It still doesnt hide the fact that the Irish government of the day were a disgrace much like the British government over 20 years earlier.

What this has got to do with the national anthem I will never know. Yes it is about the queen but for god sake have a look at her shes 80 and hardly a threat to your Irish republicanism - of which I am fully suppportive.

Which brings me on to your comment about slavish loyalty to the monarchy. You seem to make the distinction about Welsh and English. I live in Wales- they are British and our future monarch is the Prince of Wales. You wont see the majority of Wales complaining about the increase in revenue and from visitors when William becomes the Prince of Wales. Celtic cousins maybe but British all the same. Seems you pick and choose who you like as long as its anti English.

THe monarchy is a figurehead- simple. It celebrates our history and supplies us with billions in revenue from tourisim and charity. Im a republican at heart but as a Brit a democratic monarchy has its benefits. The monarchy serves the people nowadays. They are there because we say so. If you want proof just look at how the monarchy nearly fell when Diana died.

Dont forget we did cut off the head of Charles 1 and look wat happened there..... Christmas got banned and we couldnt get pissed lol.

As for the anthem being a dirge its your opinion - Im not a great fan of yours to be honest its not in the same league as the Welsh or the Scots. We wont be allowing the Italian anthem at Twickenham of course in protest of there behaviuor of the Roman Empire during their occupation of Britain.

As for a druid - cant see it it mate lol Im to much of a footy fan to be one - its to far to get back to watch the arsenal every weekend - its far enough from wales lol.

This event should of been used for a healing. Roses should of been laid on the pitch by the english players and representatives in honour and apology on behalf of the british government of that era.

Any true Englishman would of seen it as an honour. Instead we seem to have a minority who seem to want to stir it up. I have many friends from Eire who live in Britain- they seem to love Britain as much as we love Ireland.

The funny thing is that if Ireland was ever invaded it would be the British who would be first in to help them win their freedom. We are family, all families have disagreements. Its how it you deal with them that counts.

Lets hope sport wins thru and there is singing and drinking by both English and Irish fans in dublin tonight rather then punching and kicking - lets just hope England never have to play Ireland at football there. Not a pretty thought!

by steven - Rsf Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:40

We want no apology, no bunch of flowers we ask only one thing can we please have our country back......tiocfaidh ar la brits out

by Conor Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:01

Typically of sections of the Irish free state...they openly welcome the playing of God Save the Queen at Croke Park - openly welcome British ministers into the ground while 6 counties of the real Irish republic sought in 1916 is still under British Occupation.

I believe that if a united Ireland does ever occur that there should be a root and branch overhall of government systems and institutions....with the number of west brits and english lovers in the state and on this message board you really would think that they wanted to join up again into the commonwealth.

Best of luck to RSF on their protest today, at least some people havent forgotten the terrible injustice perpetrated on this island with partition...its seems money and material gain as made alot loose their national ideology...or perhaps they didnt have any in the first place!

by josephine hayden - RSF Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:17

The venue of the RSF protest is changed to Drumcondra Road oposite Quinn pub (top of Clonliffe Road) at 3.30pm

by knock4thecup Sat Feb 24, 2007 13:47

Interesting to see a deliberate shift in language from 'Britain' to 'England', too lazy to protest at the Welsh match, or is it that u got tickets to that one?? Its a joint government remember.

by kevin Sat Feb 24, 2007 14:37

The ammount of so called Irish people who unashamedly display pro British tendancies just sicken me.I would like to remind them that if it were not for our Irish heroes of our darkest days under British occupation we would not have the fine country we have today.It is a pure insult to those who were murdered in cold blood by the British. There should be a minutes silence before the game to show respect to honour the innocent people murdered by the British guns.

by matd Sat Feb 24, 2007 15:05

yes your right a minutes silence at every sports event for any country that has lots its own innocent civilliains in war or otherwise. even better if the countries team we are playing has perpetrated the offences and we can rub their noses in it.

i cant wait for the next germany, french, spanish, dutch,russian, japenese, turkish, austrian,italy,argentina , give me an hour and i will finish the list. i just cant wait to see how our guests feel when we bring up every conflict or atrocity we have ever had committed against us.

get a grip. this is sport and the british people of today are in no way representative of the british government of that era.

or are they - yes your right all germans of today are really nazi arent they and we sould make sure they continually apologise for there forefathers behaviour.

all catholics in northern ireland are terrorists and murderers so every time we play northern ireland at football we should have a 10 minutes silence for that. lol what a joke - freedom is a matter of opinion. when two opinions differ - who is right and who is wrong? the only losers are those who are killed in the process of sorting it out.

i dispair

by matd Sat Feb 24, 2007 15:10

i agree knock4thecup

some people seem a little confused about britain semmingly only consisting of england. oh of course the others countries of britain are forgiven because they are celtic - getting a bit racist this i think.

if i didnt know better id think some of the irish on here actually hated the english lol??

by Brian Johnson Sat Feb 24, 2007 16:36

By the way 30 people turned up to protest at Croke Park, like I said last night the whole thing is blown sky high by the media looking for a story.
They should be made to answer for the hype

by squid - The Limerick Blogger Sat Feb 24, 2007 16:39

"IRELAND has no Dark Deeds, we never invaded any country or persecuted any people on Earth - so you know where you can stick your lecture, Mate !"

A yes, because the irish are blody saints.

It was the Irish who handed over its own children to be raped and abused by its religious orders.

It was the Irish who ran the Jews out of their cities during the pogroms of the 1900s

It is now the Irish who facilitate an illegal war in iraq.

Take off the rose coloured glasses, Itreland is no saintly country.

by i k - ex imc eire Sat Feb 24, 2007 18:24

Heard about 20 mins ago from an informed observer down around the Summerhill area that around 70 to 80 young lads, faces covered with scarves, were walking around, shouting republican chants, stayed around to protest after the RSF leadership had handed in a letter of protest and subsequently left. One arrest, a couple of scuffles, tense atmosphere.

Any more news comes in I'll put it up.

by i k Sat Feb 24, 2007 19:04

Breakaway fizzled out fairly quickly in the end, someone else will put up pix + audio from the day tomorrow.

by matd Sat Feb 24, 2007 19:44

I would just like to say how as an Englishman and a Brit, how honoured I was to see the class behaviour of the Irish crowd tonight.

They showered your country in glory and with the dignity with which they welcomed England onto the pitch and their behaviour during the national anthem.

Our two nations came closer together tonight and will become legend on both sides of the Irish sea.

Ireland showed its true quality tonight and England were honoured to be part of it.

When Brian Moore says hes got a lump in his throat something seriously amazing has happened!

Congratulations also on a class performance I hope we beat the Frenchies for you so you can go on to win the title.

The mindless minorities have been defeated by the majority tonight- I salute you .

by NIFC - National Irish Freedom Committee Sat Feb 24, 2007 20:24 nifcmem at optonline dot net

NIFC statement on the England versus Ireland rugby game in Croke Park.

Cumann Na Saoirse Náisíunta
National Irish Freedom Committee
http://www.irishfreedom.net/

Ireland plays England in a rugby game in Croke Park Dublin Ireland today, Saturday February 24, 2007.

The last time the British came to Croke Park was on November 24, 1921 where they opened fire on Gaelic football fans attending a game between Dublin and Tipperary. They murdered 14 innocent civilians that day in what became known in Irish history as the first "Bloody Sunday".

There has never been any attempt on the part of the British government to apologize for this and other atrocities committed by their military and intelligence forces in Ireland. Instead, with the help of their Irish collaborators they managed to convince the world that their Irish victims were and are to blame.

Notwithstanding the fact that there are excellent rugby grounds in Ireland where the game could be played, the British, in there cunning ways, choose to return to the hollowed grounds of Croke Park as if nothing had happened there. At the very moment the English anthem is played there will be glasses raised in London in celebration of another job well done. The results matter little, but the attendant fanfare contributes to the appearance of normalcy throughout Ireland.

Faithful Irish republicans will protest this British display of triumphalism to the extent that the 26-county authorities will allow. In spite of the normal state harassment, true republicans will continue protest such indignities as long as the British occupy six of Ireland’s 32 counties.

To put the matter in perspective, can anyone imagine an Irish hurling game being played at the sacred Lords cricket grounds?

-National Irish Freedom Committee

by Jerry Cornelius Sat Feb 24, 2007 20:30

"To put the matter in perspective, can anyone imagine an Irish hurling game being played at the sacred Lords cricket grounds? "

Now thats a great idea! A hurley used by Michael Collins when he lived in London is on display in the National Museum. I will ask the Director to loan it to me and with a few good sliothars I will start practising in Lords asap.

The SAS probably have their own team by now, so who will join me in playing them?

by John Boy Sat Feb 24, 2007 20:41

Mockery of a picket and the boo boys nowhere to be seen.

Amhrán na bhFiann sung at an astonishing volume.

A proud day to be Irish.

by Wanderer Sat Feb 24, 2007 21:00

At least 8 arrests.

Some minor scuffles.

More pictures with interviews tommorrow.

Breakaway March.

by Rahood Sat Feb 24, 2007 22:17

Having just read the "NIFC statement on the England versus Ireland rugby game in Croke Park". as posted several comments above mine I just have to say I really dont know if I should laugh or cry or better yet curl up into a ball , wash off the hangover in the morning and go about my life as normal content in the knowledge that crackpots have a place to voice their opinions thanks to IndyMedia and the support they recieved from the likes of myself in their hour of need.

by phillo Sat Feb 24, 2007 22:24

I agree Matd, what a super match - a great day for Ireland, I feel proud to be Irish.

This seemed like a turning point of sorts, a sign we’re mature and confident enough as a nation to ditch the cap-in-hand-Paddy inferiority complex of the past – a final burying of the hatchet befitting the self-confident, dynamic and forward-looking nation we’ve become (bar a few relics and wackjobs). About time Croke Park was used for “foreign codes” (hang on, haven’t they played American football matches there before?!) – I respect the GAA’s contribution to Irish communities but I think that taxpayers have coughed up enough scratch to the organization so it’s about time to let the rugby and footie in.

Anyway Matd, don’t think for a second that the inane gibbering of some of the fruitloops and throwbacks appearing in this thread is in any way indicative of modern Ireland or Irish people – it’s mainly just good for a laugh to hear what the keyboard-jockey loners/creepy scrawny guys in anoraks and sucking-on-a-lemon expressions have to say about current affairs– oh and don’t forget the… *chortle*… “Druids” (what a windup!!)

Or read amusing screeds from self-loathing middle-class loners like “Fionn MacCumhaill” and his distinctly homoerotic, one-handed overture to the “Celtic Boys”:

“oh yes I’m so middle class and I hate myself, those big working class boys with their manly Celtic jerseys will sort out the big bad Brits, and maybe me too, come on and beat me with your burly working class arms, I’ve been a bad middle class boy you big Celtic studs…” LOL!

As for the hilariously pompous and self-importantly titled “Statement” by the “National Irish Freedom Committee” (the what now?) – get over it man, that was 87 years ago, Germany and Britain fought a war of annihilation and they can manage to play each other. I think the Irish patriots of that era would be proud to walk to streets of modern day Dublin - where we no longer need to produce young people for export. Though I guess you get a kick out of your delusional conspiracy theories : “the British, in there cunning ways, choose to return to the hollowed grounds of Croke Park as if nothing had happened there” – wft??? Can you please explain to me how they managed to “choose” to pull that one off? By sending secret agents to wear away bit by bit at Landsdowne Road over the course of 50 years or so, so that it would need to be rebuilt, all the while rubbing their hands with glee that some day, England’s rugby team will play in the hallowed Croke Park as a result!! What a defeat of Ireland that would be eh? Gosh, what diabolical cunning! No doubt they managed to drug all those GAA delegates into voting to allow rugby in Croke Park too? Gadzooks!! What are you gibbering about – nurse, get this man his thorazine shot immediately! LOL

Anyway Matd, commiserations on your thrashing, hope you whip the French for us too - see you in Twickenham next year!

COME ON IRELAND!!

by John Sat Feb 24, 2007 22:33

Whatever nifc s take on what went on today at croke, they have been the only organisation in the states thats campaigned for the rossport 5/shell to sea and save tara. members of this group were active in support of mary kelly and the pitstop ploughshares, i am not a member but a supporter of them, and have been in the states long enough to remember when they organised benifts to rebuild black churchs that had been burned in the american south. they do much good work, with little credit and shouldnt be charcterised as above.

by matd Sat Feb 24, 2007 23:09

So you should be - an historic day when Ireland finally arrived as great independant nation. Beating England could not of been a more fitting memorial and believe me thats hard for me to say.
When you say Ireland finally grew up it makes me realise that Our two countries have been on the Same path since world war 1.
In one way or another we have both had the shit kicked out of us. Especially after ww11 Britain was bankrupt from standing up to another oppressive regime and the price we paid was years of rebuilding and a gradual loss of identity to a pont in time where political correctness rules.

England and Britain long ago embraced most things Irish - just go to a pub on St Patricks day this side of the water. We celebrate your saints day more then we do our own. Whenever Im in Ireland Ive never had anything but 5 star treatment and I cant say I have ever differentiated freinds from Eire in terms of being different. Different Political systems maybe but still indiginous inhabitants of these great Islands.

Britain and in particular England unfortunately is lagging behind you when it comes to identity. The growing disquiet clearly shows that many English are fed up with being told how its not cool to fly the St Georges Cross or even be english - let alone british in our own country. There is an enemy within that is growing fast and believe me when I say it is heading your way.

We have far more in common then we might think. No one should forget our two countries past but no one should ignore our two countries great future together either.

Lol as for the British conspiracy theory about getting to play at croke park he might have a point. The war in Iraq with our american cousins was merely a diversion tactic to take the great British publics eye off the real matter in hand - getting an English Rugby team to play at Croke Park lol. Oh how we have all been fooled. Weve even mangaged to get the Welsh football team in there. Thats what you call a coup. lol

by bradán Sun Feb 25, 2007 08:06

Just a comment to say thank you to all those who showed respect to all anthems in Croke Park yesterday. As an event, it matched any day in the history of our country for spectacle, enthusiasm, unity, passion, pride.... you name it. Thank the lord that the whinging of a few neanderthals didn't spoil it for the genuine fans.

That was a day when anyone witnessing the comraderie, good will and sheer enjoyment of sport would have been proud to be Irish.

by united Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:46

Yeeeeeeee............Haaaaaaawwww!!!!!!!!

Two proud and ancient nations faced-off and went into battle.

A massacre, yes. Casualties, none (Save perhaps the RSF)

Any chance of re-running the last 800 years and doing it on the rugby field this time?

BTW, great victory for Ireland Ruari, kicking over that moped.

by redjade Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:41

CNN International this morning said there was 'only a small IRA protest'

by LYNCHER - UNITED EIRE Sun Feb 25, 2007 17:01 p.elynch at hotmail dot com

just to say well done to all the people who turned up for the march on drumcondra even doe the garda tried to stir the s''''t when they tried to stop us marching into the city centre we remained peaceful and didt play into their hands well done a victory in its self.
if anyone nos who was responsible for changeing the location please let me no as it did a lot of damage for the number of us the garda sent the crowds that were gattering on summer hill in the opposite direction.
as for the quality of the protest it will be better the next time as i will have t shirts and banners and umbrellas ready for the next one people will be fully informed of the location and the main slogan for the next and the rest is brits out and unite eire.
and the last thing befor i sign off is to the garda and the journalists im sorry if we were to peaceful for ya

by md Sun Feb 25, 2007 18:10

English occupation of Ireland? Where abouts???? I guess you are talking about Northern Ireland and it's not occupied by English people.........btw the Scots and the Welsh are British so do you also have a problem with them occupying N.I.?

Grow up and get over it..........wrong was done on both sides so spare a lot for all the innocent victims that the IRA and the UDA/UVF etc. murdered so calously.

by Paddy Sun Feb 25, 2007 19:32

I'm so bloody PROUD to be IRISH this weekend. No trouble on the streets, respect in the stadium and elsewhere, and a fantastic time had by one and all. Irish hospitality at it's bloody best.

To the detractors on this list and elsewhere who accuse their own countrymen of 'siding' with the 'ould enemy' simply because we show them some respect for the respect we receive in their country when we visit - grow up. The troubles are thankfully passing with every election, and hopefully the next generation of Paisleys will be sterile.

Go find a new fight.

by Seaicilín F Sun Feb 25, 2007 20:06

It was indeed a pity that the meeting point for the protest was changed at the last minute, as many people would not have been aware of the change in plan - it's no surprise that a Garda sent them in the wrong direction. There was well over a 100 protestors at one stage and not 30, but there was probably a lot more than this, as I'm only taking into consideration the ones who gathered at the Drumcondra road side of Croke Park.

I thought the Garda Síochána behaved despicably towards the protestors when they blocked us from walking away from Croke Park to go into the City Centre - where was the logic in that?, you would think that they would be glad the protest was over and we were walking away, but no, I felt they wanted confrontation and wanted trouble from us. The fact that they blocked us and surrounded us on a side street and there were gardaí in combat gear surrounding us meant they were instructed to provoke us, to give the protestors bad publicity and then, having failed in their attempts to provoke the protestors and after looking extremely disappointed, they let us on our way. I have a fine painful bruise on my arm today as a result of a Garda squeezing my arm and pushing me aggressively forward, even though I was co-operating and moving forward.

I have attended my protests in my life for a variety of causes and I have never ever been involved in a riot in my life, I have a right to protest over the playing of 'God Save the Queen' in Croke Park, whether people agree with me or not, and I did not deserve to be manhandled and bruised in this way, when I was co-operating, if I did this to another fellow human being, I would be arrested.

Well done to all who turned out to the protest and endured the bullying tactics of members of An Garda Síochána for that's what they were, bullies!

by matd Sun Feb 25, 2007 23:04

I agree you have every right to protest about whatever you like. Thats the way it should be.

On behalf of all British citizens I would like to apologise for the treatment you received from the garda as Im sure we will get the blame for it anyway.

by myd - orangeman Mon Feb 26, 2007 01:09

My mate from Canada sent me a picture of a protestor at saturdays rugby match between Ireland and England holding a sign which said " no foreign games " and what do you think he was wearing ? a celtic tracksuit and a celtic top ! what a laugh .
P.S. You can't help but notice that the people who seem to want a united Ireland the most hate the people who live in " the occupied six counties" with the greatest passion , I think we'll give a united Ireland a miss .

by Stuartstown exile Mon Feb 26, 2007 02:23

The Celtic/Rangers football thing is bizarre and doesn’t really truly reflect our cultures whether it be Catholic/Protestant or Republic/Unionist.

Funny thing is it’s a sectarian divide that both clubs would love to forget.

I haven’t noticed the hatred of the people who live in the six counties by most of the people I know. I know all hate the bigots and idiots on both sides.

But friend you wont be given a united Ireland a miss. It’s coming with or with you. When its your turn in the minority will you show the same maturity as those who work for the GFA i.e. David Ervine

by matd Mon Feb 26, 2007 02:54

Your wrong my freind - you miss the point - no foreign games- and he is wearing a Celtic football shirt - durgh!

Whether you like it or not Celtic play a game called football that was invented by Great Britain - England in particular - the guy wearing a celtic shirt has totally contradicted himself.

As for a United Ireland coming with or with out the last poster - you show the same arrogance that a once imperial super power used to have. A united Ireland can only ever include those of british allegiance. Unless of course you wish to execute or sterilise them. The British Government will not turn their backs on those loyal to the crown. They have however done the correct thing by allowing the republicans an opportunity to have a say in the running of a British state. Your main worry sholdnt be the British. The enemy within will see to that. Just talk to those Irish who wish to join a commonwealth of Britain and Ireland. They have seen whats happening over here and it will happen there. Mark my words it will creep up on you before you know it you wont have a say on anything. Its happening in the UK right now.

Thats what you call freedom when u allow a party whose sole purpose is to kick you out to have a say in the running of things - Happy days for both parties methinks

A few countries in the middle east will be able to use this as a blueprint and world peace will be said to of truly of started in Ireland.

by Stuartstown exile Mon Feb 26, 2007 06:12

In regard to my arrogance that is your opinion. Mine is that a united Ireland will happen in my life time and that is with the those who align themselves with Britain. Maybe with out there consent. Again I hope they will be able to make mature choices like David Ervine.

The mind boggles trying surmise who you would class as the "enemy within" but hey that’s your imperialist hangover. You've let your hand slip and left yourself exposed. You are no friend of mine because you are a bigot.

There is no blue print for peace. Let the people of the Shankill see what they want to be loyal to. It came out of the University of Chicago its reeks of capitalism. No room for people only consumers.

by John Boy Mon Feb 26, 2007 09:29

There are red herrings been lobbed into this debate all over the shop. People looking for a united Ireland and protesting over GSTQ being played.

So, let's look at the scenario where there's a 32-county Ireland playing in the 6 Nations and England are the opposition. Do we ban GSTQ then as well? Or is it ok then?

I, for one, am glad that for whatever reason there were only 30 people shown on tv instead of 100. It means that people looking in from outside think there are far fewer brainless fools in Ireland.

Playing England in Croker doesn't normalise 'British occupation in our country'. It does, on the other hand, show that we're a mature nation, especially when the occasion itself passes off and the people let another nation display their prode at their own national anthem but sings it's heart out and raises the rafters of its magnificent stadium at the playing of their own anthem.

Any protest at a rugby match, especially when it includes toerags in Celtic jerseys, has no political relevance and makes no mark on a political landscape.

by irish jools Mon Feb 26, 2007 09:34

this says it all for me about the protests. cant have it both ways i'm afraid.

oh the irony of it all..

by LYNCHER - UNITED EIRE Mon Feb 26, 2007 13:44 p.elynch at hotmail dot com

im gonna make sence of the picture of the chap in the celtic gear he supports celtic no harm in that their doing very well at the moment he is also holding a sign saying no to foreign games he left out at croke park but as usuall the british press make a mocary of him and the protest they taught their was going to be riots im glad we didt play into their hands and give them a story well done lads and id like to add the gaa played their part in this money spoke louder than morals at the end of the day i just hope it doest backlash on yas.one more thing befor i sign off this country is louseing its identity in a few years it wont suprise me if theirs a faction wanting to be classed as brittish apart from dublin 4 and the class that gos with it so far the goverment is carring for an econmy not community its time for change brittish politics out united eire for all our citizens in cathloic prods jews muslims every citzen

by Jack Wed Feb 28, 2007 15:50

Discussion of all matters relating to Ireland and England continue to be bedevilled by ignorance.
Thus Brian Moore, whose combative style of writing no less than that of playing I much admire, refers in today's 'Daily Telegraph' to 'the majority of Irishmen both sides of the arbitrarily English-drawn border which divides their island'.

For 'English', read 'British'. The government that partitioned Ireland was a British government led by a Welsh Prime Minister, David Lloyd George, with a Welsh Chief Secretary of Ireland, Hamar Greenwood, and supported by such Conservative Unionists as Andrew Bonar Law, leader of the Conservative party in 1911 and PM after Lloyd George in 1922; Arthur Balfour, Secretary for Scotland in 1886, Secretary for Ireland in 1887 (opposing the Irish Parliamentary Party and Home Rule), PM in 1902-5, Foreign Secretary in 1916-1919, and Lord President of the Council after 1919, eldest son of James Maitland Balfour of Whittinghame, Haddingtonshire (East Lothian), educated at Eton; Walter Long (whose mother was from Co.Wicklow), Chief Secretary of Ireland 1905, Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Irish Unionist Party, 1906-1921; and a clutch of Scottish Conservatives in the cabinet.

The English on the other hand had supported Home Rule with the Liberals under Asquith (supported by such luminaries as Rupert Brooke) in conjunction with the Irish Parliamentary Party under John Redmond.

And Sean Kelly, for whom the opening up of Croke Park is a personal triumph, writes in today's 'Irish Examiner' that 'Dermot McMurragh invited the English to Ireland in 1169'. For 'English' read 'Normans, Bretons, and Welsh'. 'Strongbow' is the nickname of Richard fitz Gilbert, Earl of Pembroke, a French-speaking Norman. Perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Normans had subjugated the English after Hastings in 1066, ruthlessly eliminating the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy.

The English were as capable of subjugating Ireland in 1169 as they are at present capable of winning rugby matches (cricket matches, soccer matches, tennis matches, etc.). In this respect nothing has changed since 1973. The English continue to offer themselves up for ritual humiliation to appease the failings of their British colonial governors.

by Jack Wed Feb 28, 2007 16:18

Let me add the following details concerning the British Cabinet of
1919-1922 which did so much to determine the future of Ireland in the 20th
century:

1. Andrew Bonar Law: born in Canada of Ulster Scots and Scottish descent; educated at Glasgow High School, becoming a successful businessman in Glasgow; married Annie Robley in Helensburgh, Dunbartonshire on 24 March 1891; elected MP for Glasgow Blackfriars and Hutchesontown in 1900; lost his seat in the Liberal landslide of 1906, and translated to Dulwich (England) in a by-election later in the year (a characteristic move for the favoured sons of the Conservative and Unionist party; see today Ancram and Rifkind); succeeded another Scot, Balfour, as leader of the Conservative party in 1911.

2. James Ian Macpherson, Chief Secretary for Ireland, 1919-1920; son of James, JP of Inverness; MP for Ross and Cromarty, 1911-1935; 1st Baron Strathcarron, of Banchor in the County of Inverness, in 1935.

3. Sir Hamar Greenwood, b. Canada; ed. Univ. of Toronto; last Chief Secretary for Ireland, 1920-1922; Baron Greenwood of Llanbister in Radnorshire in 1929.

4. Sir Laming Worthington-Evans, b. Laming Evans; son of Worthington Evans and Susanah Laming; Secretary of State for War, 1921-1922.

Greenwood and Evans are surely key players in respect of Ireland in 1921-1922, and we need to know more about them.

5. Lord Curzon, ed. Eton; m. first, Mary Victoria Leiter, daughter of a Chicago millionaire, and second, Mrs Grace Duggan, widow of a rich Argentinian rancher and daughter of J. Monroe Hinds, an American diplomat; viceroy of India, 1898-1905; Foreign Secretary, 1919-1924.

6. Alfred Milner, 1st Viscount Milner, b. in Giessen, Hesse-Darmstadt; ed.
Tubingen, King's College, London, and (under Jowett) at Balliol (1872-1876); Lloyd George's right-hand man in the War Cabinet of December 1916; Colonial Secretary in 1919, retiring in February 1921. Describes himself in his 'Credo'
found among his papers at his death in 1925 as follows: 'I am an Imperialist and not a Little Englander because I am a British Race Patriot'.

British Imperialists have a lot to answer for. Better, surely, to be a Little Englander or English Nationalist in 1910 (like Rupert Brooke) supporting the Liberal government of Asquith and Irish Home Rule in the great tradition of William Ewart Gladstone, Charles Stewart Parnell, John Edward Redmond (Clongowes Wood College and TCD), and William Hoey Kearney Redmond (Clongowes; died of wounds, Messines Ridge, 7 June 1917.

Very best wishes, Gerald Morgan [Dr Gerald Morgan, School of English, Trinity College, Dublin 2; tel.: 00353 1 896 1813]

Quoting "Gerald R. Morgan" :

Sirs, Discussion of all matters relating to Ireland and England
continue to be bedevilled by ignorance.

Thus Brian Moore, whose combative style of writing no less than that
of playing I much admire, refers in today's 'Daily Telegraph' to 'the
majority of Irishmen both sides of the arbitrarily English-drawn
border which divides their island'.
For 'English', read 'British'. The government that partitioned Ireland
was a British government led by a Welsh Prime Minister, David Lloyd
George, with a Welsh Chief Secretary of Ireland , Hamar Greenwood, and
supported by such Conservative Unionists as Andrew Bonar Law, leader
of the Conservative party in
1911 and PM after Lloyd George in 1922; Arthur Balfour, Secretary for
Scotland in 1886, Secretary for Ireland in 1887 (opposing the Irish
Parliamentary Party and Home Rule), PM in 1902-5, Foreign Secretary in
1916-1919, and Lord President of the Council after 1919, eldest son of
James Maitland Balfour of Whittinghame, Haddingtonshire (East
Lothian), educated at Eton; Walter Long (whose mother was from
Co.Wicklow), Chief Secretary of Ireland 1905, Chairman and
Vice-Chairman of the Irish Unionist Party, 1906-1921; and a clutch of
Scottish Conservatives in the cabinet. The English on the other hand
had supported Home Rule with the Liberals under Asquith (supported by
such luminaries as Rupert Brooke) in conjunction with the Irish
Parliamentary Party under John Redmond.

And Sean Kelly, for whom the opening up of Croke Park is a personal
triumph, writes in today's 'Irish Examiner' that 'Dermot McMurragh
invited the English to Ireland in 1169'. For 'English' read 'Normans, Bretons, and Welsh'.
'Strongbow' is the nickname of Richard fitz Gilbert, Earl of Pembroke,
a French-speaking Norman. Perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the
Normans had subjugated the English after Hastings in 1066, ruthlessly
eliminating the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy.

The English were as capable of subjugating Ireland in 1169 as they are
at present capable of winning rugby matches (cricket matches, soccer
matches, tennis matches, etc.). In this respect nothing has changed
since 1973. The English continue to offer themselves up for ritual
humiliation to appease the failings of their British colonial
governors. Very best wishes, Gerald Morgan Dr Gerald Morgan, School
of English, Trinity College, Dublin 2; tel.: 00353 1896 1813]

Quoting "Gerald R. Morgan" :

Dear John, Sam, Jamie, Mark, and Ben (in no special order), One
final
thought
before this afternoon's historic and (I hope) celebratory match.
Irish commentators (not least Fintan O'Toole) have been at pains to
emphasise
this
week that Ireland is a civilised and mature country, well able to
welcome
to
Dublin representatives of a country long thought to be an ancient
enemy. In my view the Irish have no need to justify themselves to
anyone. They have endured (and many English people like myself along
with them) the desperate
tragedies
of the last forty years with courage, dignity, and generosity. Not
least is this true of the IRFU and its members. Indeed, rugby
players have been a shining example of the way in which we may find
peace and reconciliation on this island after so many years of
turmoil. As an Englishman (and not
merely
that, but a Forester from Lydbrook) I do not and have not regarded
myself
as
an
enemy of any description of the Irish. I am sure that that feeling
is
common
among many (and probably most) of my fellow English men and women. I
bumped into Josh Lewsey in Grafton Street yesterday afternoon. When
I said to him (in my politest manner): 'Excuse me, aren't you Josh
Lewsey?', he replied, 'I'm afraid so'. For me, that is Englishness.
Very best wishes, Gerald
Quoting "Gerald R. Morgan" :

Sir, Under the disgraceful headline, 'Croke Park: England Return
to Scene
of
Massacre' ('Belfast Telegraph', 19 February 2007) David McKittrick
tells
his
readers that 'the joke doing the rounds in Dublin' is that 'the
English
won't
have the advantage of having rifles and armoured cars when they
take on
the
Irish at rugby next Saturday'. First of all the English will not
be
returning
to Croke Park; they will be going there for the first time. Bloody
Sunday,
21
November 1920, has nothing to do with the RFU or with English
rugby
players
as
such. The massacre (and massacre it was) was carried out by the
Black and Tans and the Auxiliaries. They were British, not
specifically English, and
were
sent
to Ireland by a Welsh Prime Minister (David Lloyd George) and a
Scottish Conservative leader (Andrew Bonar law). As so often, the
English helped
to
make
up the numbers.
David McKittrick goes on to say that '[f]or many, it will be a
moment for reflection when the anthem "God save The Queen" is
sung, and when the
Union
flag flutters over this traditional citadel of Irishness'. Not for
me. I
hope
to watch the match in my usual pub in the centre of Dublin with
friends
used
to
supporting Kilkenny hurlers in Croker. I hope the flag flying
wiill be
the
English flag and I hope that the anthem will be an English anthem.
The RFU have got the English in this mess because of their
illogical persistence in playing the British national anthem for
an English team. I hope that English supporters in Dublin on
Saturday evening, who will be made welcome as
usual,
will do their best to dissociate themselves from the Black and Tans.
There
are
obvious means at their disposal for doing so. Very best wishes,
Gerald
Morgan
Dr Gerald Morgan, School of English, Trinity College, Dublin 2; tel.:
00353 1 896 1813 (English Parliamentary Party)