Opposition of religious Jews to the idea of a Jewish state and political Zionism in general.

by Fred Johnston Thu Dec 14, 2006 19:31 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours........Everything we don't grab will go to them."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

Found this scarcely looking on the Web. Anyone about to contradict that this was said? Sounds like a nice bloke, that Ariel. Didn't he oversee something nasty in Leba. . . . .no, couldn't possibly be the same guy!!!

by cold hard facts Thu Dec 14, 2006 18:28

As for Tamara and Tamra they are one and the same but the difference is that whereas you can find it on a google map like Hard Cold Facts does, it does not appear on any Israeli government maps or documents. Its there for the outside world just not for Israel.

read my previous post--check this link, It is the Israeli CBS(central bereau of stats.) it has tamra, so please refrain from stating Israel does not list arab settlements, it does

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/shnaton/text_search_eng_n...tamra

My question here is how does the Jewish National Fund get to own 14% of a country?
Quite simply, they bought it between 1899 and 1948

Why does the government of israel want to hide from its own citizens what happened in 1967?

they dont, you misread the article or what? She is saying that 1967 borders in context of teaching what happened then, the children need to be aware of the previous border i.e the 1948 borders

surely there is a big difference between someting been open to anyone applying and something being actually open. I mean was the RUC not open to all Catholics to join? The FACT is that the land permits are controlled by the state which is openly hostile to its Arab citizens

Thats a bigoted viewpoint, land is different its not work, the land is open for arab Israelis for building permits
http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/pr/kimhipr.html

also the arab population has grown by 80% --do you think all these extra arab family members live in the streets?

by Query Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:31

Hard Cold Factrs says that

79.5% of land is owned by the ILF and open to ANYONE so your point is totally untrue-

surely there is a big difference between someting been open to anyone applying and something being actually open. I mean was the RUC not open to all Catholics to join? The FACT is that the land permits are controlled by the state which is openly hostile to its Arab citizens

14% is privately owned by the JNF--this is specifically earmarked for returning jews so if the area was in the JLF then noone would get a permit regardless of what race they are.

My question here is how does the Jewish National Fund get to own 14% of a country?

As for Tamara and Tamra they are one and the same but the difference is that whereas you can find it on a google map like Hard Cold Facts does, it does not appear on any Israeli government maps or documents. Its there for the outside world just not for Israel.

As for education, the Israeli education minister recently caused a storm of protest because she wished to change school textbooks to reflect Israel before there 1967 occupation of the West bank and Gaza

"You cannot teach history without knowing the borders Israel used to have," Ms Tamir told army radio. "We can't teach children what happened in 1967 if they are not aware where the border runs"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210144.stm

Why does the government of israel want to hide from its own citizens what happened in 1967?

by sorry Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:29

The town is called Tamara and it is not on maps that is why you cannot find it!!! As per previous threads its home to Susan Nathan author of the other side of Israel . It is there but not in the eyes of Israel

i am sorry to burst your bubble but the person is right and it is called tamra and if a cabbie can find it it cant be that isolated now can it.

by hard cold facts Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:22

sorry before you say it does not appear on Israeli maps/databases again

link is to the CBI --type tamra in the search and WOW! a recent survey stored in the States database...........you can use this in future as its pretty accurate

by reply to hard cold facts Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:21

Sorry u are wrong

The town is called Tamara and it is not on maps that is why you cannot find it!!! As per previous threads its home to Susan Nathan author of the other side of Israel . It is there but not in the eyes of Israel

93% of land in Israel is ownbed by the State. The state rarely gives building permits to Arabs do the math

As for the Arab Israeli political parties, listen to them and get an idea of the discrimination faced by arab citizens of Israel.

They face harrassment from the Police and Army all the time, ask any securicrate in Israel, Arabs whether citizens or not of Israel are deemed the enemy.

by hard cold facts Thu Dec 14, 2006 17:09

A town like Tamara (pop 25,000) does not exist in the eyes of the State of Israel

Probably because it is actually called Tamra, take a look at any map of Israel, its by Jeruselum, plain as the nose on my face!!

2nd point therefore invalid

i agree your third point

next point building permits

79.5% of land is owned by the ILF and open to ANYONE so your point is totally untrue

14% is privately owned by the JNF--this is specifically earmarked for returning jews so if the area was in the JLF then noone would get a permit regardless of what race they are---although maybe the bedioun would.

You have to understand before you just accuse

by reply to fact finders Thu Dec 14, 2006 16:27

reply to factfinders / Israeli embassy

you state the following

1.2 million Arab-Israelis live within Israel
Arab-Israelis make up 8-20% of the total population
Arabic is an official language on an equal footing with Hebrew
Arabs hold 12 of 120 seats in the Israeli Knesset or Parliament
An Arab holds a seat on the Israeli Supreme Court
Arab women can and are entitled to vote(unlike many arab states)

Surely within a "democratic"state any minority group is entitled to this especially when they make up 20% of the population.

Jewish settlements in the disputed territories of Gaza, Judea & Samaria (wrongfully called “occupied territories” and “West Bank”) cover only a mere 1.7% of the land. - this is just lies

Firstly, they are not disputed territories - this is Israeli langauge- they are lands recognised by International Law as occupied, even the US recognises this. As for the 1.7% of land you say two points

(1) Any settlement of occupied land is ILLEGAL under international law

(2) 1.7% is fanciful numbers, take the realitiy of the "security" land around settlements, the Jewish only roads etc, the illegal apartheid wall etc etc etc

I agree surrounding Arab states are no examples of virtue but then why should the Palestinians pay for this remember, the USA supports corrupt govts in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, etc etc

by real facts about Israel Thu Dec 14, 2006 16:18

Here are some real facts

Arab towns do not appear on state maps or databases

A town like Tamara (pop 25,000) does not exist in the eyes of the State of Israel

States services such as electricity and telephones do not have to service these towns because they are not officially recognised.

State funding for for Arab schools is miniscule compared to jewish schools

It is unheard of for the state to give Arabs building permits therefore most Arab houses are deemed illegal.

For some real facts and real stories read Susan Nathan's book, from her unique vantage point, Nathan examines the history and the present-day political and cultural currents that have created a situation little recognized in the ongoing debates about the future of Israel and the Middle East. With warmth, humor, and compassion, she portrays the daily life of her neighbors, the challenges they encounter, and the hopes they harbor. She introduces Arab leaders fighting against entrenched segregation and discrimination; uncovers the hidden biases that undermine even the most well-intentioned Arab-Jewish peace organizations; and describes the efforts of dedicated individuals who insist that Israeli Arabs must be granted the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens.

by factfinders Thu Dec 14, 2006 16:04

FACTS ABOUT ARABS LIVING IN ISRAEL

1.2 million Arab-Israelis live within Israel
Arab-Israelis make up 8-20% of the total population
Arabic is an official language on an equal footing with Hebrew
Arabs hold 12 of 120 seats in the Israeli Knesset or Parliament
An Arab holds a seat on the Israeli Supreme Court
Arab women can and are entitled to vote(unlike many arab states)
There are five official Arab parties
All Arab municipalities receive government funding for education and infrastructure.
Israel built the Arab Palestinians 6 universities, 20 community colleges and 166 clinics between 1967 and 1995.
Jewish settlements in the disputed territories of Gaza, Judea & Samaria (wrongfully called “occupied territories” and “West Bank”) cover only a mere 1.7% of the land.
Lets compare and contrast…

FACTS ABOUT JEWS LIVING IN ARAB LANDS

Most Jews from Arab lands were expelled forcibly after being murdered, pilfered, robbed, and tortured with little more than the clothes on their backs – Approximately one million or more refugees in what has become “The Forgotten Exodus.” Today some of the Arab nation states such as Libya are now “Judenrein” or Jew free as Hitler could only have imagined.
Hebrew or Judiasm is not officially recognized by any Arab nation state.
No Jewish political or religious parties are allowed in any Arab nation state.

by wrong said fred Thu Dec 14, 2006 15:48

right said fred

try reading

"The Other Side of Israel" by Susan Natahn

A compelling read by a British Jew who took up the right of return and went to live in Israel. While there she recognise3d the apartheid system and wrote this book documenting the apartheid and discrimination faced by Palestinian Arabs with ISraeli citizenship.

It give a clear account from a Jewish perspective of what the State of Israel does to its own citizens, it also shows how the situation is much worse for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank

Links with Nazi Germany and other dictatorships are correct, israel operates a systme of massive apartheid, discrimination and oppression.

For other Israeli Jewish writers on this perspective try

Ilan Pappe, Tanya Reinhardt, and Ahron Shabtai

by Fred Johnston Thu Dec 14, 2006 15:42

I can't do this sort of uninformed arguing; but let me say this - more than one Israeli Jew(notice I do not use the unqualified word 'Jew', loaded as it is, with the carelessness with which you use it) has noticed this, in particular those who knew the Holocaust. But you will have to read with the blinkers off to trace this. Try The Independent (UK) for starters. Then try Al Ha'aretz. If you do not know about all of this, tackling me over the subject is a waste of time.

by right said fred Thu Dec 14, 2006 15:24

Fred, you predict the future by saying:

and the removal gradually of any pretence to civil rights, including the right to vote

there are moves afoot to deprive further of their rights Arabs living in Israel proper.

What moves fred, im intrigued.

Fred what jews told you all this stuff in your post, you keep referring to jews as if you speak for them or something

you do not speak for Jews fred and stop trying to compare nazi germany with Israel, it shows your desperation when you are resorting to lies

by Fred Johnston Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:38 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

There has always and consistently been Jewish anti-Zionist opposition to the ways and methods of the creation of the Jewish State. In particular, from Jews who had known the persecution and subsequent hell of the Holocaust and were aware of what the forced displacement and dispossession of a people such as the Palestinians - in the name of 'living space' - could portend. Such opposition still exists. It is made more absolute by the recognition by many Jews that Israel is now using methods first employed by the Nazis against they themselves; the construction of a ghetto in Poland, for instance, at Lodz, Warsaw, and so on, and the removal gradually of any pretence to civil rights, including the right to vote. Current Israeli policy has created a ghetto out of Gaza, walled and policed; there are moves afoot to deprive further of their rights Arabs living in Israel proper. Those expelled from their lands have no right of return. To elderly Jews who have an accurate remembrance of the Nazi atrocities,all of this is a hideous perversion of maintaining a Jewish homeland. Perhaps this was best mirrored a couple of years back when IDF soldiers stamped numbers on the arms of Palestinians rounded up as 'terrorist' suspects. This proved altogether too much for at least one venerable member of the Knesset, who walked out in protest - he'd lived long enough to have seen this sort of arm-numbering before, in an adjunct of Hell itself. It is wholly inaccurate to suggest that every Jew in Israel is a Zionist or is unaware of the horrors perpetrated against the Palestinians. Moreover, many have come out into the streets to protest - events which are NOT ever covered by the Western media.

by rubbish Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:31

Its interesting that Babs suggests that 60 years ago i.e 1947/8 the Arabs could have had a state in the parts (of Palestine) they were occupying

Thats actually a fact not a suggestion, i would suggest a bit of light reading of the british white paper or a few of the UN ones

the Jews should not continue to pay for the incompetence of the Palestinian leaderships inability to declare a state simply because they thought they could finish off the Jews in 48, after all the Jews were in a pretty bad state after ww2 wouldnt you agree? the arab leadership thought so, thats why they tried to ethnically cleanse the area

by Babs - BABS Wed Dec 13, 2006 22:23

I have read and know a hellulava lot more than you
The 4 " Jews " you mentioned are selective in their research -ex communists always try to distort history -remember Orwells 1984 ?
In 1947/48 appeals were made to Palestinian Arabs to stay where they were -by Palestinian Jews
There is no agreement that 750k were expelled .
The problem always was and stil is that the Arabs of Palestine always rejected granting to others want they wanted for themselves .
They remind one of the young man who murders both his parents and then begs for clemency because he is an orphan
--and the Students of NUI Galway and former bombers of the IRA who are the back bone of the IPSC buy this .

Get Real !

by Babs reply Mon Dec 11, 2006 19:24

Its interesting that Babs suggests that 60 years ago i.e 1947/8 the Arabs could have had a state in the parts (of Palestine) they were occupying.

Does BAbs suggest that people should accepts being evicted from their homes and land, I mean even Israel accepts that 750,000 people were driven from their homes during 1948, surely not accepting this situation of your home and land by an invading power is not to be seen as cutting of their noses to spite their faces?

People writing these posts without any knowledge of the situation would do well to read authors like
Tanya Reinhard
Aron Shabtai
Illan Pappe
Susan Nathan

All Jews, 3 Israeli and one a British Jewish lady who took up the "right of return", see what they have to say about the creation of the state of Israel and then comment

Babs read a little , learn a little and then comment as for disrupting studies, nobody forces people to do anything but remember as Martin Luther King said

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere

by ISPC Mon Dec 11, 2006 19:02

A religion is not a nation.

by Babs Mon Dec 11, 2006 18:56

It is the anti Jewish lobby consisting of all sorts of odd bods who have nothing constructive to say who are unhinged .

Zionists may disagree among them selves but everyone knows that with 2 Jews you get 3 or more opinions -however 99% of jews know that they would not wish to go back to the pre 1948 situation . Every nation has the right to call some where their national home . Jews even the religoius type that Rabkin claims to represent know that the Land of Israel was and is the Homeland of the Jews . Some may argue about the theological basis of the coming of the Messiah but thats the 2Jews 3 opinions scenario -religious zionist wanted to help him come .Non zionist religious Jews wanted to wait -so what its happened . The Arabs 60 eyasr ago could have had their state in the areas they were occupying -then as now they werew cutting theire noses off to stop the Jews arising out of the Dhimmi condition .
Meanwhile the petty nonsense and childish behaviour of the IPSC pickets does no one good and keeps the good studenst of galway away from their studies .

by te Sun Dec 10, 2006 17:08

Zioinists are growing desperate since the defeat of their army by the Lebanese resistance earlier this year. Now they're accusing ex -US president Jimmy Carter of anti -semitism. Surely it's a sign that their once unassailable propaganda machine is heading the same way as their invincible military - down the tube .
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ca...story

by Peter K Sun Dec 10, 2006 13:27

The matter is quite often mis-represented as a religious struggle by those who have their methods questioned. Being anti-oppression or pro-Palestinian does not automatically mean you are anti-semetic.

by David Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:23

It all sounds to me like religious zealotry, and is startling to the non-believing Atheist that peoples deaths can be justified so.
All oppression is wrong, all colonialism is wrong, all conquest is wrong.
When people stop shooting each other because Allah/Jahovah/Jesus authorisd it in obscure superstitious parables the world will be a much better place.

by Maerton - None Sun Dec 10, 2006 09:56 davism at bezeqint dot net Hermon 68, Kfar Vradim, Israel. +97249979466

The reason why most of what they call themselves "religious Jews" are the same ones that oppossed the rebellion against the Nazis in Warsaw and elsewhere. They are the ones responsible for the death of so many of their fellow Jews.They seem to think that G-D wishes Jews to fall or be murdered without any form of defence. These same faced cowards I suppose also condem the acts of Bar Kochba and the Macabees who overthrew the Greek and Romans. What is the difference between overthrowing the Greek rulers and that of the Ottomans or British I ask? G-D only helps them that help themselves and I wish to ask this Rabbi why then does he pray three times a day for a return to Zion? If he is waiting for the Messiah then those who are waiting still do not understand all that they have professed to learn over the years. The Messiah is here and is waiting for them to see reality.
Regards,
Maerton Davis.

by Pinchas Reuven Pretzel Sun Dec 10, 2006 01:17

Rabkin may be a Prof but proves that clever people can be ignorant , I fail to see what is the point of him speaking in Ireland to convinced anti semitic audiences . Anyone who wishes to deny the rights of jewish self determination is an antisemite . Anti semites hate Jews the people , their rights and Judaism . their religion . His brand of Judaism does not belong to or represent the mainstream of Jewish Religious and secular life and they represent aminute proportion of the total world wide Jewish population .They rae entiled to theire weird views but can not represent them as being part of normative /normal Judaism .
He knows that for 2000 years we have prayed 3 times a day for the return to Zion . Thats why even non political Jews are zionist even if not Zionists. He will also know that in israel today there is more religious activity -studying of religion and practice of religion than there ever was since the dispersion after the Romans conquered Judea a, Israel and Samaria . That has flourished in the modern State of israel -it started over 150 years ago when due to modern travel faclilities Jews were able to start to return to the deserted lands of Israel in the Greater Palestine area
Rabkin will realise soon enough if he lives that long that once the Arabs get rid of the State of Israel they will turn on the few Orthodox anti Zionist Jews left ,and then go for the Christians and then for the Hindus and so on and so on .

by David Fri Dec 08, 2006 15:00

I would provide a link but this the opinion section can only be accessed by subscribers.

Here is his artice:

Traditional Jews still oppose Zionist state

Israel has within its borders an unusual and little known group: Jews who oppose the Zionist movement that helped create their state. Yakov Rabkin explains

Wednesday of last week was the anniversary of the 1947 United Nations resolution to partition Mandate Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab entities. Those opposed to the idea of two separate states appear to have lost.

The majority of the UN members voted for the partition. A minority objected, including most Arab inhabitants of the region where the state of Israel was to be established. Their hostility to the Zionist project has not subsided in spite of the recognition of Israel by several Arab states.

What is less known is that many of Palestine's traditional Jews objected to the Zionist project even more resolutely, and their opposition has also refused to go away. These Jews did not pretend to understand "the Arab mind" but drew on mainstream Judaic sources to outline perilous consequences of the unauthorised use of force "against the nations".

Several Palestinian Jewish leaders had made their opinion known to the UN, and some had asked for protection from "Zionist rule". Most religious Jews remained aloof from the Zionist project. Only a few, including the former chief rabbi of Ireland, Isaac Herzog, supported the establishment of the state of Israel. (His Belfast-born son, Chaim, was the sixth president of Israel, from 1983 to 1993.) Israel's founders emphasised the need to "normalise" the Jewish people. Israelis were to become a nation like any other nation.

Normalisation meant building a new muscular people attached to the soil. It implied militant secularisation, a radical negation of the Jewish tradition and its values. Zionism was a revolution that aimed at transforming the very nature of the Jew.

Traditional Jews view the exile from the land of Israel two millennia ago as a divinely ordained act that only the Messiah will end. According to this view, it is particularly wrong to "rebel against the surrounding nations" in order to conquer the land of Israel. This is one of the reasons why most traditional Jews living in Israel take no part in the army and its activities.

Many traditional Jews object to the fact that it is a human initiative and not obedience to the divine providence that has brought millions of Jews to the land of Israel. They deem that the persistent dangers facing Israel's Jews stem from the revolutionary nature of the Zionist project.

Identification with the state of Israel has become the main component of Jewish identity for millions of Jews. This substitution of Judaism by "Israelism" - a remarkable achievement for the Zionist educators - constitutes the most radical break in the long Jewish history. Many opponents of Zionism actually live in Israel. Unless one understands the distinction between spiritual and earthly Jerusalem, between messianic redemption and physical resettlement of the Jews, it appears paradoxical that Jews who live in Jerusalem offer daily prayers for a return to the land of Israel and wish each other "next year in Jerusalem" at the end of each Passover.

It may seem surprising that, while the state of Israel has become a vibrant economy, a formidable military power, and a beacon of western culture in the Middle East, Jewish religious opposition to Zionism has refused to vanish. Such antipathy deliberately ignores all these achievements and focuses on something quite different: how Zionism and the state of Israel have transformed what it means to be a Jew.

In the preface to my recent book, the Israeli philosopher Joseph Agassi argues that "to recognise the legitimacy of religious anti-Zionism is crucial for an honest debate about Israel and Zionism - which remains stifled since the Zionists, both Jewish and Christian, deny all legitimacy to anti-Zionism".

Judaic legitimacy of the Zionist state remains very much in question.

• Yakov Rabkin is professor of history at the University of Montreal and author of A Threat from Within: a Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism , (Zed Books, 2006). He will give two lectures on the history of Jewish opposition to Zionism on Sunday at 2.30pm in 36 Parnell Square, Dublin, and 8pm in Menlo Park Hotel, Galway. 086 397 1070 for further details

by Jacob Fri Dec 08, 2006 09:45

"Opposition of religious Jews to the idea of a Jewish state and political Zionism in general"

What a sensationalist titile

like saying all priests are child molestors

I am a religious Jew - there is no one in my large circle of family and friends that includes Rabbis, Haredim and Chassidim that would agree with your speaker.

By the way will I see him in Synagogue tonight and tomorrow in Dublin?

I suppose I will if he is really as religious as he says he is

regards
Jacob