The Strategy of the Empire: the 'New Middle East'

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Oct 20, 2006 15:05

Along with George Galloway, we will have Ibrahim Musawi from Lebanon as a speaker
Ibrahim is a journalist in the Al-Anar TV in Beirut and will talk to us about the post-Israeli situation in Lebanon and the politics of Hezbollah.
There are also plans to have a third speaker - watch this space for details

by confused Fri Oct 20, 2006 16:56

I thought Galloway was speaking at the PANA AGM in the Royal Dublin at this this time. Has this changed? Is this an iawm or pana gig?

by hezbollah tv Fri Oct 20, 2006 17:03

we will have Ibrahim Musawi from Lebanon as a speaker
Ibrahim is a journalist in the Al-Anar TV in Beirut and will talk to us about the post-Israeli situation in Lebanon and the politics of Hezbollah.

LOL...Manar tv is owned and operated by Hezbollah, since when has any antiwar movement invited a terrorist organisation to give them a lecture in anything>?

only in Ireland......

youse are a disgrace

by so wrong Fri Oct 20, 2006 17:16

bit more on this guy.....note in 96 he was an aide to the man!!!!

how you can invite a serving member of hezbollah to lecture you on peace is beyond me

by gofer Fri Oct 20, 2006 17:18

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V116/N63/fbi.63w.html

sowwy here is link, is this the guy????

by omg Fri Oct 20, 2006 17:36

he likes jews as well......

Contrast Cotterell's remarks to the vicious anti-Semitism appearing in the Egyptian and Arab press where Jews are called "pigs and monkeys." The director of Al Manar, Hezbollah's satellite television station, Ibrahim Musawi, recently called Jews "a lesion on the forehead of history."

by lies Fri Oct 20, 2006 17:48

and a little bit more of a tidbit....

Hezbollah have been equally innovative in the field of news. Their answer to Jeremy Paxman, the Armani-suited Ibrahim Musawi, presents a comprehensive latenight news round-up. Musawi's day job is as the party's director of information -- a nifty way of circumventing conflict between spin doctors and the media.

Congrats lads you have Hezollahs party's director of information coming to lecture you the IRISH ANTI WAR MOVEMENT

ROFL

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Oct 20, 2006 19:15

I am delighted to see that all the good people who know so much about Lebanon and Hezbollah are already up in arms because a Lebanese journalist is coming to town.
There was no whiff from them when Jeb Bush was here....not a word when the Israeli Ambassador was gallivanting in Galway....not a whisper when a UK terror ship was docking in Dublin.

Now - they're worried.

Because a man maybe able to speak the truth as he sees it. And Irish people may find that reality is a bit different from what they have been told.

A man whose country was recently invaded.

Tough shit lads.....

PS Re: a query above, the PANA AGM is at 4.00 - same date same venue.....this is, as mentioned, an IAWM gig!

by antiwar Fri Oct 20, 2006 20:16

These guys aren't exactly the left-wing of the Lebanese resistance. So, is the IAWM now providing platforms for Islamic fundamentalists? What next, a meeting with Justin Barrett as an anti-war speaker?

Funny how the IAWM policy exactly mirrors that of the SWP.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Oct 20, 2006 22:39

Dear antiwar friend?

In the recent invasion of Lebanon the political and military structures of the Hizbollah were the resistance to Israeli barbarism. All of it left wing centre wing and right wing! It is them who fought and pushed the barbarians back. And had the support of the entire Lebanese population - Druze, Sunni and Shi'a alike.

In the Lebanese political arena, known for its rampant corruption, not unlike our own Irish scene here, Hizbollah parlamentarians are recognised as trustoworthy, pragmatic and professional. The efficiency of Hizbollah's municipal civil servants has made the party popular not only with the poorer Shi'a communities in Beirut and the South, but also with the tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees in the camps.

So rather than parroting anti-SWP and anti-Islamic bull, a bit like the Indo and the ultra reactionary pro-Israeli and pro-Papist cabal, give us one good reason why should Irish people NOT have the right to ask direct questions to members and spokespeople of Hizbollah - learn from them, hear their truth and forward their criticisms to them directly.

Don't know if you're old enough to remember Section 30 and the Offences Against the State nonsense which stopped people from the 26 Counties talking about and confronting IRA and Sinn Fein members....that went down the drain as the electoral and political support for Sinn Fein soared - do you remembr when people like Adams and Ferris and McGuinness were not allowed on RTE? Or perhaps you are one of these "antiwar" people who support censorship.

Our position in the IAWM is that international solidarity is not an act of charity. It is an act of unity between people fighting on different terrains towards the same objective.....an end to the Empire.
But then perhaps your supposed leftie "antiwarism" does not extend that far....pity!! In the meantime, btw, if you and your friends would like to invite more "left wing" sections of the Lebanese resistance to speak here, go ahead and we'll support you. You can ask our guest to put you in contact - I'm sure he won't mind.

by redjade Fri Oct 20, 2006 23:06

''...So rather than parroting anti-SWP and anti-Islamic bull, a bit like the Indo and the ultra reactionary pro-Israeli and pro-Papist cabal, give us one good reason why should Irish people NOT have the right to ask direct questions to members and spokespeople of Hizbollah...''

MichaelY, I assume you will bring in Israelis too? The Pro-Iraq War side, as well? Who else are you willing to invite? IAWM/SWP now so fair and balanced? puhleeeze.

Amnesty International says Hizbullah committed war crimes - why invite war criminals?

Must we choose between Israel and Hizbullah? What if people who want peace want neither? What does the IAWM/SWP want?

————————————

Israel/Lebanon
Under fire: Hizbullah’s attacks on northern Israel
14 September 2006

International humanitarian law and war crimes
International humanitarian law (the laws of war) governs the conduct of war. It seeks to protect civilians, others not participating in the hostilities, and civilian objects (all objects that are not military objectives).

Hizbullah is bound by a number of rules and principles of international humanitarian law. Some of these obligations, including the requirement to treat humanely at all times people taking no active part in hostilities, are contained in common Article 3 of the four 1949 Geneva Conventions. Other principles and rules specific to the conduct of hostilities have been accepted by the international community -- including Israel, Lebanon and most other states -- as binding on all parties to international and non-international armed conflicts. These rules are encapsulated in the Additional Protocol I of 1977 to the Geneva Conventions.

[....]

Directing attacks at civilians or civilian objects is a violation of international humanitarian law, and doing so with intent constitutes a war crime.

[....]

The scale of the rocket attacks on cities, towns and villages in northern Israel, the indiscriminate nature of the weapons used, together with official statements, specifically those of Hizbullah’s leader, show that Hizbullah has committed serious violations of international humanitarian law. These include deliberately attacking civilians and civilian objects, and indiscriminate attacks, both of which are war crimes, as well as attacking the civilian population as reprisal.

more at
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020252006

by antiwar Fri Oct 20, 2006 23:21

Hizbullah repelled the Israelis. Does it necessarily follow that they should be invited to address 'antiwar' meetings??? Their politics are right-wing religious fundamentalist. The same outfit (and there's a very close connection) took power in Iran in 1979 - yes, they defeated and overthrew the Shah (a US puppet) but very few on the left were deluded so much as to invite the ayatollahs to speak at subsequent antiwar meetings in Ireland.

Hizbullah are closely linked to the reactionaries running Iran. Same politics.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Oct 20, 2006 23:37

Hi redjade,

I will try to be as fair and balanced as I can in my reply because I value and respect enormously the work you do....and the contributions you make to Indymedia.

Yes, along the Hizbollah, we invited the Israeli Embassy - I spoke to the lady who was running the show in the absence of the Ambassador and she told me they were "too busy" at the moment. We also invited the US Embassy and we had a positive response from them - they will take part in another meeting to be announced soon. In the past, the US Embassy people spoke at our meetings, and argued for the war in Iraq as "unfortunate but necessary". So did that unbelievable prat Waghorne of the Freedom Institute who argued that Iran should be bombed outright....he is now starting a journalistic carreer I hear. I'm sure he will regale us with his fairness and balance.

So yes we try to be fair and balanced....though to be sensible, and beyond Amnesty's word games, to compare what the israelis have done, two months ago and in the past in Lebanon or in Palestine, with what the Hizbollah have done or are capable of doing is like comparing a shoplifter stealing a Fanta with the big time crooks of our political life here. A crime is a crime and a war crime is a war crime......This notwitstanding, our political sense of fairness and balance, and I am talking here of the IAWM and not the SWP, is a very specific one....I am not happy to go to meetings where US veterans talk of their successes in killing people or interrogating people...but they have turned and they're welcome. Tomorrow there is meeting with two ex-CIA employees who have also turned and are now part of the anti-war movement and support the Palestinian cause. And they talk openly about their intelligence work in Vietnam among other places. And yes we must listen to them and learn.

This is how I see Ibrahim Mussawi's trip here to Ireland. As much as George Galloway's trip to be at the same meeting.

And one final point - the IAWM has a developing anti-imperialist logic of its own and a membership with lots more people and nationalities than the SWP. It does no service to anybody to equate the two anymore.....

Fraternallyy

by zzzzz Fri Oct 20, 2006 23:57

Michael, the IAWM is an SWP front and, yes, you're a willing dupe. (You knew I'd add that, didn't u?)

by redjade Sat Oct 21, 2006 00:39

Michael You're blowing my mind here.

If I understand you correctly, IAWM/SWP's intention all along was that George Galloway was to mediate a discussion between the Israeli Embassy and a Hizbollah representative in Dublin of all places(!) in the name of peace making!

Wow - next time I cast my ballot for the Nobel Peace Prize I will vote for RBB!

by MichaelY - iawm Sat Oct 21, 2006 20:10

It's been a long time Redjade that anybody accused, or complimented, an IAWM activist of "blowing his/her mind".....be that as it may.

Our intention was to trigger a debate between the two main protagonists of the recent war in Lebanon with GG and our organisation contributing our perspectives. The Israelis would not play.....we're going ahead in their absence.

Btw, we decided today to extend the meetings to Derry, Belfast, Cork and Galway.....dates are being finalised - watch this space.

To the kind anonymous messager above yours redjade, who called me a "willing dupe"....all I can say is that, unfortunately, as years catch up with us we get softer and milder in our approach to political views we don't agree with....so, in the IAWM Steering Committee meeting today, Saturday, 7 of us who are not in the SWP, sat quietly and listened with awe at the two SWP activists....they won all the votes 2-0 with 7 abstentions, all of us willing and duped and manipulated......all of us giving our time and energy voluntarily to this organisation that we know is simply a front......When I asked comrades for all who considered themselves 'willing dupes' to raise their hands, as would be expected, 7 hands went up!! In fact, it was 8 hands that went up but then we discovered that it was the Labour Party acitivist, inexplicably, who had raised both his hands. Or was it 'her' hands...cannot recall. Age you see. What can you do zzzzzzzzz (what a delicious handle!!) , nobody is perfect and the world is a bitch!!

by . Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:45

Michael, you are straining to make it sound like the IAWM decided that - fair being fair - you'd simply go ahead in the absence of the other side of the debate. Hence, Hezbullah gets a national speaking gig in Ireland, courtesy of the IAWM. Of course, this is utter bullshit. Tell me, is the Hezbullah speaker couldn't make it and the Israelis could, would you have organised a national tour for the Israelis? The answer is no.

It is obvious that the IAWM is providing Hezbullah with a platform because you support them. And this is an organisation closely linked to reactionary regimes in Iran and Syria. In fact, Hezbullahs ideological links to the Iranian regime are extremely strong.

These are right-wing Islamic fundamentalists that the IAWM are touring around Ireland, not left-wing revolutionaries. These aren't Sandinistas or Zapatistas. This is where the politics of the SWP have brought the section of the anti-war movement that operates within their sphere of influence.

I hope that socialist anti-war activists have more sense than to cooperate with these meetings. No socialist should lend their support to promoting Islamic fundamentalists.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Oct 22, 2006 15:35

Though it's hard to debate politically with anonymous 'opponents' let me try. The answer to your hypothetical question of whether we would have toured an Israeli speaker, on his/her own, if the Lebanese speaker had been unable to come here is NO......when we organised the debate on Iran, which you obviously missed, with the US Embassy, Richard Waghorne and the Editor of the Sunday Tribune, on the one side, and an Iranian militant, Harry Browne and an IAWM speaker on the other.....we got a lot of flack re: the "right wingers" we hosted. The debate was a massive success, it went well, it showed the paucity of political arguments on the pro-US side...and the rest is history.
Incidentally, we are planning another debate between the US Embassy and the Iranian Embassy in the future....I know you'd be interested in that one too!!
Now to the next couple of weeks....the IAWM is not a left-wing/socialist/revolutonary political party......it is an anti-war/anti-imperialist movement. A bit like the IPSC, which deals only with issues of Palestine, or the older Anti-Apartheid movement or, indeed, Anti-War Ireland or Cosantoiri Siochana.

In that context, and bearing in mind that the recent invasion of Lebanon focussed a lot of Irish interest in that part of the world, and taking into consideration that the Israeli attack was a precursor and a testing ground for a possible attack on Iran by the combined forces of the Empire.....we thought that anti-war and other activists would be interested to hear directly from a journalist, who is an employee of Al Anar, what happened, why it happened and what's likely to happen from now on in Lebanon.
The response of activists around the country, and the Musllim community, has been enormously positive....media interest ditto.....
The anti-war movement is not made of dumb twits....we want information, we want to know how this politico/military organisation managed to push back the barbarians, we want to hear of their precise links with the mullahs, of how they managed to have the support of the entire Lebanese society and the 250,000 Palestinian refugees who live in Lebanon....we want to learn: the socialists and the centrists and the Trade Unionists, and the young and the old and the women and the men and the gay and the straight and all the rest of us. We want to learn so that our solidarity with those who fight the Empire is real and vibrant...not just words in Dublin meeting rooms.
Think again about what I am saying.....if you want to argue for a boycott of these meetings - go ahead. You'll be pissing in the wind. And playing methinks the game of the pro-Israeli forces in our society....which some of them pass themselves for left wingers - especially in Indymedia - surely you know or have gathered that! Go back and check some of the threads when the invasion was going on....it may clear some of the mist.

by socialist Sun Oct 22, 2006 15:45

I don't need George W. Bush to come on an IAWM speaking tour to give me an insight into his ideological make-up. Likewise, I don't need to go to an IAWM public meeting to learn about the right-wing ideology of Hizbullah. In fact, such meetings generally give a skewed view because the organisation or government in question always speakers tend to hone their argument with the particular audience in mind - Hizbullah aren't going to send a fire-and-brimstone mullah to Ireland.

Do you really think that we are so completely ignorant of the politics of Hizbullah that we need you to educate us? And your idea that Hizbullah had the full support of the Lebanese people is simply indicative of how poor your knowledge of the situation is. Do you think the Lebanese working-class look to Hizbullah for class politics? No, because they know that all they'll get is religious fundamentalism with a dollop of social action. A bit like Social Catholicism.

The IAWM have lost the plot with this speaking tour.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Oct 22, 2006 16:22

Do you think the Lebanese working-class look to Hizbullah for class politics? No, because they know that all they'll get is religious fundamentalism with a dollop of social action. A bit like Social Catholicism.

Judging from your message above and your question, all I can say is that it's you who are either very badly informed or skewing reality for your specific ideological reasons.

In the Lebanese political system, known for its rampant corruption, not unlike our system here, parliamentarians aligned to Hibullah are known and recognised as trustworthy, pragmatic and professional. They're not corruptible and their efficiency of its municipal servants have made the political wing of the party popular not only with the poorer Shi'a communities in Beirut but also the South.
Hizbullah's social welfare services provide inexpensive clinics and modern well-equiiped hospitals not only in the areas where the Party is strong but also for everyone living nearby. Its after-school programs and nurseries are open to working Lebanese and a few Palestinian women (who can find jobs). Its engineering services have been instrumental in the rejuvenation of neighbourhoods as well as providing clean water to those without access to potable water. And with your superior knowledge you call that "a dollop of social action"..... (the above from my own personal experience).

As to your question, you're obviously fixated on your notion of 'class politics'.....for me what Hizbollah is doing in Lebanon is radical and in many cases revolutionary amongst the oppressed, including the Christian and Muslim working people....not with Lenin and Marx or Mao or Kropotkin handbooks but real live and vibrant co-operation and working with people....And that's why I believe we have so much to learn from the Hizbullahs and the radicals in the occupied territories- as well as the Chavezistas, the Zapatistas and the radical Catholics in Latin America.....why don't you go ask the 250,000 Palestinians living in camps in Lebanon , such as Sabra and Chatila, or indeed workers in Ramallah and Jerusalem why they support Hizbollah and why their yellow flags fly in every corner....do I hear false consciousness? It's not from the IAWM that you need to learn but from those who are fighting the Empire - politically and militarily.

Now I am fully aware that I am in another territory here than the sectarian revolutionaries and socialists of the various vanguard parties - in Ireland, in the UK or elsewhere in Europe. They have absolutely nothing to learn because they know it all - and that's why they leave one Party, and create another, and divide another, and leave another, and take to court another, and slag another......and after twenty-five years or more of existence one is trying to have 1-2 Councillors and the other is gloating because it has one member in the Dail.....and, of course, it's always the fault of the working classes here....they don't understand, grasp or appreciate working class politics.

The IAWM have lost the plot with this speaking tour you say finally 'socialist'.

No - our tour will separate the wheat from the chaff - those who are involved in real solidarity with the oppressed + those who are fighting the Empire and those who are looking into the bowls of the barbarian beast to find the absent working class.......keep looking and good luck. Btw, what did Joe think about the Rossport pickets and the Rosary? Do I hear class politics?

by anon Sun Oct 22, 2006 16:56

Hezbullah politicians are "not corruptible" sez the bould MichaelY. We shall see. Whether they are or not, they're right-wingers with a particular agenda and working-class interests only concern them insofar as they help them achieve their main politico-religious objectives.

I'm old fashioned and believe in the separation of church and state.

by MichaelY - iawm Sun Oct 22, 2006 17:33

Hi anon,

I agree. So far they've not been 'corruptible'....their critics say they get so much dosh from Iran they don't need to be......however, reality in politics is what counts and they cannot be bought right now.
Their attitude to people, Palestinians and Lebanese alike, is one of support, co-operation and defence....you're right though in so far as what they do is motivated by their political (and religious) agenda....But then again, is that not the case with all political parties/organisations? Of the right the centre or the Left? Isn't the attitude of our own vanguardists to the working class not motivated by their own political (and anarchist critics say 'religious') agenda?

FInally I join you in your old fashioned belief of separation of Church and State....and as for the 'bould' - you made me laugh. My son calls me that.......

by jokers Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:24

you're right though in so far as what they do is motivated by their political (and religious) agenda

indeed and you give some loudmouth islamic extremist with massively rascist views a platform to speak who is well connected to a terrorist organisation that holds the south of its country to ransom and refuses to obey Its own governments call to disarm?

jasus, some antiwar movement you people are!!!!

jokers

by prowar Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:39

And that's why I believe we have so much to learn from the Hizbullahs and the radicals in the occupied territories

LOL, perhaps you outta head out there and watch in disbelief as they slit your nice white christian throat then fella!

hmmz now theres a thought, the guy speaking will return to his country(Lebanon--not s lebanon but LEBANON) and call for you to be beheaded in front of his cleric mates

perhaps you outta ask about the cosy relationship he shares with Iran

The Israelis would not play.....we're going ahead in their absence.

So its a one sided lecture? --watta surprise! you seem to be trying to drum up support for these warfaring types of people, your not antiwar you are prowar

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:48

Obviously you two guys (or gals?) above don't know each other and, obviously again, you are anonymous peaceniks who have been slightly, or seriously, disturbed that a Lebanese journalist working for Al' Anar is coming to Ireland to speak......and your views dovetail perfectly with each other as well as with the views of our 'socialist' friend further up.

Well, two ways to proceed for you from here....one, come early to the meetings because there is likely to be masses of people and put your questions and your criticisms....or boycott the meetings as our friend above suggests because we should not be allowed in this country to hear what the opposition to Israel says....

Choices choices my friends.

by socialist Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:04

I assume you're implying that my comments were those of a pro-war troll when you associate my post with the two anonymistas above. Creating a straw man, MichaelY?

You talk of choices as if it's between Israel and Hezbullah. Nonsense! The Lebanese working class has its own interests that are not progressed by promoting the religious reactionaries of Hezbullah. As redjade wrote, I choose neither Jewish nor Islamic reactionaries.

Hezbullah's close connections with Iran and Syria, and their right-wing politics, are well known. I repeat - no socialist should cooperate with IAWM meetings aimed at bolstering these reactionaries.

by used Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:12

because we should not be allowed in this country to hear what the opposition to Israel says....

Indeed its a no Brainer

Drive them back into the sea!
Obliterate them off the face of the earth!
They dont have a right to exist!

lalalolo....and the like...but i find it hard to believe that an antiwar movement supports and provides a platform for a guy that is rabid PROWAR and not even have decency to provide opposition arguements9ut as the guy above said, there is a surprise!)

It gets money from the shareholders who are leaders in Hizbullah." Describing the relationship between Hizbullah and al-Manar, Krayem explains, "They breathe life into one another. Each provides the other with inspiration. Hizbullah uses al-Manar to express its stands and its views, etc. Al-Manar in turn receives political support for its continuation." Despite al-Manar's registration under the name of the "Lebanese Media Group Company" in 1997, Muhammad ‘ Afif Ahmad, the station's second general manager, asserts that al-Manar has belonged to Hizbullah "culturally and politically" from its very establishment

Hizbullah Hit Shows

My Blood and the Rifle (Dami wa’lbunduqiya) is a series dedicated to Hizbullah guerrillas who have died fighting Israel. Each episode begins with images of Katyusha rockets fired into Israel, guerrillas saluting rockets, and the sound of gunfire, accompanied by this poem:

Their blood mixed together … And their fists came joined …With both their blood and their fists they went forth to liberate the land … So the land was liberated and victory shined through … The martyrs passed away … But we continue to hear their voices … Every one of them says: My blood and the rifle.

The deceased guerrillas are illustrated as young, healthy, religious males with similar goals: protecting community, land, and God. Each episode features pictures of the departed with their families and friends, reading Qur’an, and praying, followed by funeral scenes where the deceased, or his coffin, is wrapped in a Hizbullah flag. Parents, siblings, friends, and fellow guerrillas laud the virtues of martyrdom and the significance of sacrifice.

In Spite of the Wounds (Gharm al-Jirah) is a series dedicated to guerrillas wounded while fighting Israel who are cared for by Hizbullah. The series shows the rehabilitation of former guerrillas and their continuing service to community and God. In one episode, brothers responds by saying, “If we all leave, who will be left here to fight the Zionist enemy? Israel is not gone yet—it still exists. Israel lives on our land, in our homes. The battle is not over yet.”

In Spite of the Wounds debunks the notion that Hizbullah is comprised of two separate “wings,” military and social. In each episode, former guerrillas are shown being given jobs and money to start businesses or other enterprises. Hisham Qasim receives funds to start a medical clinic; he is also a part-time physical education teacher who teaches young children to “take an active role in the resistance movement.” Yusuf Shukr, given money to start an ambulance company, wears his military fatigues during the episode. One of his sons, no older than three, appears holding a Hizbullah flag and says, “Now that we freed the south from Israel, Inshallah [God willing] to Jerusalem.”

The combined message of the two programs is that whether a resistance fighter lives or dies, everyone comes out a winner. If a guerrilla survives, he is praised. If a guerrilla is wounded, he is eligible for benefits. If a guerrilla dies, his family receives benefits and is treated with deference. Hizbullah’s message to those who join as resistance fighters is conveyed by one of the many slogans displayed during commercial breaks: “If you die, they will remember you.”

and on and on.....

http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/6_04/alman_ap1.htm

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:19

Socialist,

I haven't associated your comments with any pro-war troll...your views are views well expressed and articulated by a 'vanguardist' political organisation in this country

What I did say, and please read my comment again for the sake of clarity, is that the views of the two trolls dovetail well with yours.

(1) They don't want a Lebanese journalist working for Al' Anar speaking here - neither do you!
(2) For them Hezbollah is pro-war and 'holding the country to ransom' - for you they're right wing reactionaries in the pay of Syria and Iran - with politics against the interests of the Lebanese working class.

Don't know how old u are, socialist, and I don't know if you remember that both sets of arguments are replicas of what the 26 County State, the Sticks and sections of the LP were saying about Sinn Fein and the IRA 15-20 years ago - while supporting Section 30 and the Offences Against the State Act. Some of that lot, under different masks, still repeat the same bull!!

Holding the country to ransom - how often do we hear that argument about insurgents, strikers or activists? 'Against the interests of the working class' how often do we hear that argument against people who fight? As for boycotts, you were very quiet when the IPSC and the IAWM launched and continue to argue for a boycott of Israeli products.....in case I forgot, they're holding the country to ransom and are against the interests of (this time) the Israeli working class ! Right?

The choice for you is the same as for the trolls - come to the meetings early and argue or stay and watch telly!

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:29

Drive them back into the sea!
Obliterate them off the face of the earth!
They dont have a right to exist!

Did I miss something or wasn't the above the exact and clear objectives of the recent Israeli invasion of Lebanon as articulated by Olmert? How many people were killed no-brainer? How many Raytheon produced cluster bombs did you leave behind?

Do you see socialist ? Another obviously anti-war fella who agrees with you that people working for Al' Anar, or associated with Hezbollah, should not have the right to speak in Ireland!!

What are you guys worried about? Surely such an inconsequential organisation could not and should not strike so much fear in your hearts...or are you anxious that some naive Irish women and men suddenly realise that the media was peddling rubbish?

Or is it because they've been the only ones to fight successfully against Israeli expansionism? And are supported right through the Islamic world?

Ouch ouch ouch -

by socialist Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:39

Why don't you just deal with what's being said instead of what you think you're hearing?

I never said that Hizbullah shouldn't have the right to speak in Ireland. Let them speak - they have that right - and I'll go along to argue against their anti-working class reactionary politics. However, that's not the issue. What I object to is a supposedly progressive group, an anti-war group, the IAWM, organising a series of meetings for them. Providing them with a platform. Endorsing them. The IAWM's reputation was already in tatters but this just caps it.

I am not against their right to speak - I am against a supposedly progressive group providing them with a PLATFORM.

by prowar Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:41

LOL, olmert my arse the person to say all three was nasrallah, YOU do like your works of fiction, want to relay that link with that so called quote? ..nahh didnt think so...

And are supported right through the Islamic world?
And here as well, perhaps like your esteemed associates you can call for jihad at a rally!
you support JIHAD michael dont you? you endorse it dont you? anything that kills americans,british and NATO peacekeepers ehh michaely

Antiwar my arse you lot make me puke

i couldnt give a toss if Israel did dissapear, what i do however care about is a so called antiwar organisation giving a platform to prowar people and ancouraging support of any of the murderous bastards on any side

by no censorship Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:48

After all, all through the bombing we heard Israels side of the story through the media. People weren't baying for a boycott of RTE or sky news or fox on those occasions. It's all so one sided in the media. That's bothers me.

So let them speak and make your own mind up freely afterwards. Israel could easily have provided a speaker if they wanted but It is rather hard for them to reasonably defend their actions in lebanon and I'm sure people aren't exactly lining up to do so in a public forum they don't control.

I'm no fan of violence of any kind but I'm not afraid to hear what people have to say either. I've heard the israeli side ad nauseum through a biased media. Now I'd like an opportunity to hear the other side, without a middle man. Please give me and others that opportunity to judge for myself first hand.

History has shown that sometimes there are grounds for standing up and fighting. We have had our own experiences of that.

Preventing the IRA from media access in ireland was not such a good thing and It allowed a very one sided picture to emerge of what was going on.

So lets learn from our own mistakes and hear these people speak

by socialist Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:56

You can hear and read what they stand for if you want. In fact, I'm sure some friends of theirs could easily organise a speaking tour of Ireland, but anti-war groups are under NO obligation to organise meetings for Hizbullah!

Censorship? This is a red herring. The IAWM is providing a platform and promoting Hizbullah. They're not providing one for Osama bin Laden this season. What? My God, censorship!

The IAWM is under no obligation to bring Hizbullah to Ireland on a speaking tour, but they have chosen to do so. The 'censorship' red herring is a load of nonsense. It's hardly censorship when an anti-war group fails to provide a platform for religious reactionaries. That's the mother of all red herrings.

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Oct 23, 2006 13:06

You see my socialist friend.....our arguments, because obviously we have nothing better to do, are working. Good people, and some trolls, are joining the debate.

A couple of points - people who are against censorship do concede the right to speak even if we don't like, or agree with, or support what we are hearing. A good starting point.

Now, if they have the right to be here and speak, who exactly should have organised their meetings? In your words, a reactionary right-wing organisation perhaps...the PDs? FG? or perhaps, Sinn Fein? Should they have done it themselves? Being practical is an attribute of socialists - no?

The IAWM's position is that if we are to counteract the fundamental Bush/Blair position of the clash of civilisations, we must not only understand that the oppressed will use religion as a shield and a weapon but will have to give them the space to explain and debate. Btw, what is your position about the veil debate in the UK at the moment? Just an inquiry..

I can quote you back Lenin and the Bolsheviks attitude to sharia law in the Muslim Republics....I can talk to you at length on why Liberation Theology was, and is, such a powerful weapon in Latin America and the Phillipines......but you know all that, don't you?

Final point - the IAWM is growing....so is the AWI...the anti-war movement is growing in direct synchronicity to the Empire losing the plot. And, pls accept this as brotherly advice, the political tendency you're part of should decide to make Shannon, Baldonnel and the war a political priority....don't worry about the IAWM's image. We can take care of ourselves. Think, and seriously, on why you guys and gals are sitting on the fence (with a possible exception of your Youth sections who are there).

by wtf Mon Oct 23, 2006 13:56

The Strategy of the Empire: the 'New Middle East'
dublin | anti-war | event notice Wednesday October 11, 2006 12:18 by MichaelY - iawm
Is there an Irish Complicity?

George Galloway

and a Special Guest from Lebanon
as well as an expert on Internatiomal Law
2 pm Saturday Nov.4th
Royal Dublin Hotel

WTF? where is the Empires strategist in all of this? its in the title but you dont allow anyone of them to speak?

Is there an Irish complicity?

yes the hezbollah spokesman will be well up to date on that one
so will george galloway...LOL

So in actual fact this will be

Hezbollah blowing their Jihad trumpet
Galloway clapping behind em(he was after all a huge saddam fan..lol)
an swp memer no doubt blowholing to the 20 people gathered

nice nice

what a crock of self piddling peeeee

by ohdear Mon Oct 23, 2006 15:36

So did nobody notice that the TCD phil or hist wheeled out Andrem Choudry to spout old scarey stuff about Islam for like the third year and row the other night, I guess they can't find anyother fool to turn up for their pretend debate/cirucs. Why is it thats so hard to tell them wingers apart from IAWM/SWP.

by Michael - iawm Mon Oct 23, 2006 18:18

Any comments?

In a few words

by my eyes! Mon Oct 23, 2006 18:34

Bit pink, innit?

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Oct 23, 2006 18:52

Couldn't very well make it red now - could we?

by anon Tue Oct 24, 2006 02:37

If you are trying to highlight our responsibilty you should include Aherns name

by Bollocks Tue Oct 24, 2006 03:03

Pink for the Pinkos, how appropriate, Now couldnt get any Al _Queda to speaks as well?.

Let me guess your next Debate is between Klaus Barbie & Elie Weisel?

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:48

Hi anon,

We will try to highlight the Irish Government's responsibility in our presentation - it's just that the three speakers will focus on the Empire's responsibility for the mayhem that goes on in Afghanistan and Iraq and what happened in Lebanon when the Israelis invaded - was it for the fourth time?

As for the wise 'bollocks' - don't worry - we would actually think of an Al Qaeda speaker if and when the US and Brit forces, and their crusading allies, get finally kicked out of Iraq and Afghanistan....the same way some of us pinkos brought Vietnamese speakers to speak when the invaders left Vietnam with their tails cut off.

And as a PS....

The horrors the Nazis did to the Jewish people, their barbarism which was tolerated if not encouraged by the Brits and Americans, along with what they did to communists and gays, does not in any way excuse what the Israeli State has been and is doing to the Palestinians and the Lebanese, again with the tolerance if not support and encouragement by the EU and US. And don't forget where the Nazi scientists went after the end of the war....and what they produced for the Empire....bollocks indeed!

by will law - statistical centre Tue Oct 24, 2006 13:08

The typical lefty rhetoric about colonising Brits is too much to take from Irish people who have swamped our country for hundreds of years. Now you have restraints on Islamic immigration to Ireland in the same way you had against Jewish immigration to Ireland after the second world war.
In your childlike hatred of we British (does that include the millions of Irish decent ?) you seem not to see that the Islamic murderers you seem to think are your friends today, will and do turn on every none muslim in the end. You are part of the "Dhimma" and they are part of the "Umma."
Your little Island is not Irish to them. It is a part of their world-wide khalif yet to be absorbed for the greater glory of Allah.
You will be easy pickings because your population is so small. And your illiberal immigration policies will be challenged by clever muslim lawyers and the European court of human rights will uphold their claim and muslims will come in ever greater numbers into Ireland and you will soon stop championing them over us.
The day of reckoning will come and the Brits won't seem so bad after all...... Paddy!
When your country is Balkanized like mine, then you will see who is your friend. God you people are thick sometimes.

by MichaelY - iawm Tue Oct 24, 2006 14:50

Will law,

I had decided not to answer your contemptible message in this thread but then I saw you were serious about entering the debate about immigration + racism in Ireland and I could not resist. Your rants are absolutely unbelievable coming from a citizen of a country that enslaved and raped Ireland for centuries. And continues to exact blood money from the occupied northern part of this island. Our feelings towards British people, btw, rather than being anti- and childish, are modulated very much based on who the Brits are, what they do and what they say. We have many many friends and comrades from across the water who help and support the development of our nation....and, then, there are colonial mouthpieces like yourself.

You are, I must admit, quite an eloquent exponent of the 'clash of civilsations' theory....racist and arrogant to the core, and not only towards people of other colours and races, but also whites....in other words, non-English, because I suspect that, if pushed, you'll come up with some similar bull about the Welsh and the Scots.

So go back to your hole, wl, argue your despicable stuff with your own people and leave us thick Paddies to debate our own development. The last thing we need is advice from you and your cabal. We seem to be doing well now that we have extricated ourselves, albeit partly, from your clutches.....so buzz off pls.

by anon Tue Oct 24, 2006 15:41

Is Ireland/Bertie/Gov not part of this 'empire', is Poland and the other coalition partners, I wouldn't expect you to add Poland to the strapline but I would expect you to add the country we're in.

by nuclear Tue Oct 24, 2006 16:16

i heard this antiwar bunch are working on getting the deranged small man in heels with the horrible sunglasses in to discuss the evil empire and how it plans to crush him for the next speech

his sidekick pinky will definately be in attendance

Pol Pot would be envious, he coulda contributed so so much to kicking the eeeeeeeevilll eeemmmmpire also

gadaffi sends his apoligies, hes part o the eeeevil eeemmmmpire these days, but for a fee he is willing to backstab

random surprise guests are dictatorship arab leaders criticising the eeeeevill eeemmmpire(shame their own citizens cant do the same without getting shot, but ohh well)

by will law - statistical centre Tue Oct 24, 2006 16:46

Well, you are a fool, Mick. I'm not English at all. I didn't rape or rob anything from anyone least of all the Irish. My brothers in law are Irish , Mick.
Believe yuor own national myth if you must, after all the Abo's believe some right old shite and it isn't challenged by we colonising Brits because it's actually quite quaint when all is said and done.
So is yours:
The freckled faced 'pure' Irish lad just home from milking his cow to find a red coated bully raping his auld grannie. If it makes you feel like some kind of green Che Guevara, armalite in one hand and a shamrock in the other, then fine by me Michael. Solidarity with those 'cool' Arabs too - by jesus don't they look fine in their checked scarves!

Get a fuckin grip man. Why don't the Scots complain about the invasion of the Irish tribes into their country? Why don't they constantly bitch about the clearances?

As for crawling under stones....I do it but you would probably tell me it was and Irish stone and I'd no right to be there.

by Until Jerusalem Sun Oct 29, 2006 01:59

From Wikipedia:

"In 2004 the Hezbollah-owned television station Al-Manar was banned in France on the grounds that it was inciting racial hatred. The court cited a 23 November broadcast in which a speaker accused Israel of deliberately disseminating AIDS in Arab nations.[82]"

Well done, IAWM, it's good to see that such progressives are given a voice by the SWP here in Ireland. Perhaps you could do a live production of "The Diapora"?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3581514.stm

Correspondents who have viewed The Diaspora note that it quotes extensively from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious 19th Century publication used by the Nazis among others to fuel race hatred.

[...]

Al-Manar Foreign Editor Ibrahim Mousawi told BBC News Online that the proposed ban resulted from "political pressure by the Jewish lobby".

by liz Sun Oct 29, 2006 21:07

is there a charge for this meeting? if so presumably it's whatever people can afford.

i reject as incredibly naive the swp 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend ' line of supporting 'the resistence' in iraq ,as if there is only one group, which must be supported in its anti-imperial struggle no matter what agenda it has, tactics it uses or who it kills.
similarly fighting aggressors does not necessarily make hezbollah a great organization. however, how much is to be learned from only hearing right on speakers who i already agree with? i will go and hear for myself what someone from hezbollah has to say, particularly about how they organize and provide social services. hezbollah's viewpoint, unlike that of neo-cons like george w., is not much publicised and i just might learn something.

by ohh Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:18

unlike that of neo-cons like george w., is not much publicised and i just might learn something.

You should learn the true meaning of rascism from them

by MichaelY - iawm Mon Oct 30, 2006 15:50

I agree with you Liz. Over the last week I went to a couple of meetings and listened very carefully to three ex-US Army men telling us of their experiences in Iraq - of interrogating people, one of them of breaking prisoners limbs, of shooting prisoners with blanks etc.....and I kept thinking not only of the personal courage involved by ordinary Iraqis in resisting those barbarians (with arms if necessary) but also of the personal decisions of these young men to turn their backs from the Empire, and their pro-militarist families and join the anti war movement.
Earlier in the week I listened with care to two ex-CIA employees, a married couple, active in Vietnam and Palestine before their decision to quit....what were they doing there...what were they planning...who suffered from their decisions....did many dies?.....and then, again, the personal courage involved in rejecting all that and joining the anti war movement. And the price paid.

So, listening, and learning from, those diverse instances of war and barbarism, of courage and hope, of opposition and saying NO, is, I believe, part of the process of an anti-war movement, and individual activists in it maturing. The Raytheon 9/10, the Ploughshares 5, Mary Kelly are all parts of us, of you, of me...as much as the Palestinian resistance, the Lebanese resistance, the Iraqi resistance are, I believe, part of us, part of me. And I want to listen to the activist from Hezbollah - I want to learn, I want to disagree if I have to...I don't want to rely on paid scribblers, or 'socialist' vanguardists, to tell me what I should believe or who I should support. I can make up my own mind.

Let the trolls and those right wingers who keep calling us scum, wasters, parasites go on with their deeds. Let the cops film us, photograph us, enter us into databases.....

We will win at the end.....

by cheapo Tue Oct 31, 2006 23:35

Entrance charge to listen to Galloway meow is 10 euros if you're not a member of PANA or the IAWM.

by Sinéad Ní Bhroin - on behalf of PANA Wed Nov 01, 2006 00:00

Some info below on the speaker PANA are providing for the meeting.

Ben Hayes is a researcher with the civil liberties group Statewatch (www.statewatch.org) specialising in the development and implementation of EU justice and Home Affairs policy. Ben is widely published on civil liberties issues in Europe and has written about policing, surveillance, criminal law, immigration controls, asylum policy, human rights, privacy and data protection, freedom of information and democratic standards. He works with of range of NGOs and community groups including the American Civil Liberties Union, the International Campaign Against Mass Surveillance, the Campaign Against Criminalising Communities (UK) and the Global Freedom of Information Advocates Network. Ben is joint co-ordinator of the European Civil Liberties Network, launched in October 2005, see http://www.ecln.org/

Ben has recently recently published an incredibly well researched report on behalf of Statewatch & the Transnational Institute www.tni.org entitled Arming Big Brother – The EUs Security Research Programme. This document can be downloaded from the PANA website http://www.pana.ie/idn/300406.html .

This Statewatch-TNI report examines the development of the EU Security Research Programme (ESRP) and the growing security-industrial complex in Europe it is being set up to support. With the global market for technologies of repression more lucrative than ever in the wake of 11 September 2001, it is on a healthy expansion course. There are strong arguments for regulating, limiting and resisting the development of the security-industrial complex but as yet there has been precious little debate.

The story of the ESRP is one of Big Brother meets market fundamentalism. It was personified by the establishment in 2003 of a Group of Personalities (GoP) comprised of EU officials and Europes biggest arms and IT companies who argued that European multinationals are losing out to their US competitors because the US government is providing them with a billion dollars a year for security research. The European Commission responded by giving these companies a seat at the EU table, a proposed budget of one billion euros for security research and all but full control over the development and implementation of the programme. In effect, the EU is funding the diversification of these companies into the more legitimate and highly lucrative dual use sector, allowing them to design future EU security policies and allowing corporate interests to determine the public interest.

The planned Security Research Programme raises important issues about EU policy-making and the future of Europe. Europe faces serious security challenges: not just terrorism, but disease, climate change, poverty, inequality, environmental degradation, resource depletion and other sources of insecurity. Rather than being part of a broader strategy to combat these challenges, the ESRP is part of a broader EU counter-terrorism strategy almost singularly orientated to achieving security based primarily on the use of military force and the demands of law enforcement. Freedom and democracy are being undermined by the very policies adopted in their name.

Relevant links:

www.pana.ie
www.statewatch.org
www.tni.org

For more information on Ben Hayes contact 087 9266764.

by MichaelY - iawm Wed Nov 01, 2006 14:06

Well done Sinead.

As for the cheapo comment. above.....you can join either organisation for €10 / year at the door and there will be no entrance fee. If you're already a member it's free....

by anon Wed Nov 01, 2006 14:54

That's a novel way of recruiting members! Anyways, I'm not gonna join so I take it will cost me ten euros to get in. :-(

by confused Wed Nov 01, 2006 19:58

Can I pay my 10 Euros at the door to attend the meeting and not join the IAWM? Or will I become a member as soon as I hand over my money? I don't want to join the IAWM.

by anon Wed Nov 01, 2006 20:01

Can i donate my 10e to Ben Hayes expenses he worth listening to.

by me Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:32

Here's MichealY from the linked thread dealing with the upcoming IAWM agm: "we are going to have a National meeting [on saturday] - open to all members, even to those who may wish to pay at the door....we are going to have a National Meeting to prepare for our AGM"

Is the Royal Dublin Hotel gig a public meeting with Galloway or a "national meeting'"of the IAWM? Or is it a case of them hijacking the audience for a "national meeting" to be held as soon as Galloway stops taking questions? The last "national meeting" consisted of Kieran Allen telling people to focus on the next election so I'd rather not have to deal with that.

A bit of clarity is needed here. So far, we know that all attending will be charged 10 euros at the door. Can this be paid without becoming a member of the IAWM? Secondly, is this a public meeting or a "national meeting" of the IAWM or both?

by Until Jerusalem Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:36

If you're concerned about the IAWM getting money which Gorgeous George really deserves, you could always pay in fine Cuban cigars.

by MichaelY - iawm Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:19

I will take the above message by ' m e ' as a real query and reply as honestly as I can:

1. The IAWM National Meeting is on Saturday 4th in the Royal Dublin Hotel at 10.30 in the morning - repeat 10.30 in the morning. It's open to all members and affiliated organisations. Its task is to discuss current strategy, developments in the anti-war movement nationally and internationally and prepare/set the stage for the IAWM AGM, set for Dec 2nd. The IAWM Constitution is available to all as it was put into Indymedia by redjade - he received it, as all IAWM members, supporters and affiliates, by email a few days ago.

2. The Mussawi/Galloway/Ben Hayes meeting is a PUBLIC meeting that will start at 2.00 pm, repeat 2.00 pm - same date and same venue......there is no entrance fee for IAWM and PANA members - for those who are not members or do not want to join, there is an entrance fee of €10. And, of course, you DON'T have to join either organisation. All monies collected will go to defray travel and publicity expenses.

3. After the public meeting is over, we expect around 5.00, PANA will have its own AGM - same date and same venue.

Hope the above clarifies the processual issues - for more political/personal criticisms watch this space.

by anon Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:37

The SWP should throw in a 'national meeting' as well, seeing as their members from around the country will be in town anyway. If a few people leave the room after the IAWM national meeting they could have it then.

Thanks for the clarification, MichaelY. That untangles things a bit.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:50

Thank you for the good words anon....your suggestion re:the SWP was passed on and they're considering. Out of my hands that one - as you well know.

Two extra bits of info....Ibrahim Mussawi had three excellent meetings, two in Belfat and one in Derry over the last couple of days. Tonight Friday he is in Cork.

Tomorrow after the main meeting in the Royal Dublin at 2.00, Ibrahim will hold a special meeting in Arabic with members of the Islamic community in Dublin.. Let us know if interested, give us a contact and will respond.

Below pls fin an IAWM Press Release re:Lebanon

IRISH ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT - Nov 2nd

CLAIMS ABOUT IRANIAN, SYRIAN AND HIZBOLLAH CONSPIRACY TO BRING DOWNLEBANESE GOVERNMENT ARE US PROPOPAGANDA DESIGNED TO RESTART CONFLICT

IAWM WARNS THAT US AND ISRAEL WANT TO DRAW UN FORCES INTO CONFLICT WITH HEZBOLLAH

Claims made on RTE¹s Morning Ireland yesterday (wedn) and similar claims by the US government, in recent days, that Iran and Syria are using Hezbollah to bring down the Lebanese government, are ³nonsense².

The US and Israel are deliberately trying to stir up division in Lebanon and draw UN forces into a conflict with Hezbollah. Continued US meddling in Lebanon and the wider region confirms the folly of sending Irish troops into a very volatile situation.

We are disappointed that Morning Ireland had chosen to allow the so-called ³Middle East expert², Hazir Tamourian, to make unsubstantiated allegations about Hezbollah without providing a
counter-point to his views.

Ibrahim Moussawi is currently on a speaking tour in Ireland and would be happy to respond to
these mischievous and false allegations.²

The claim that Hezbollah is engaged in a conspiracy to overthrow the Lebanese government is absolute nonsense. Such claims are nothing but US and Israeli inspired propoganda. Hezbollah are a legitimate political party that enjoys massive support across all sections of Lebanese society.

What really lies behind such claims is the fact that the US and Israel are deliberately trying to stoke up divisions in Lebanon through a systematic propaganda campaign against Hezbollah.

The US and Israel want to recover the ground they lost when Hezbollah humiliated the Israeli military in their recent assault on Lebanon. They are desperate to undermine Hezbollah¹s huge popularity among all sections of Lebanese society.

The US is facing massive and growing resistance in both Iraq and Lebanon, with all religions and sects uniting against their policies of occupation and military aggression. This is why the US is losing in Iraq and why Israel was defeated in Lebanon.

Faced with this growing resistance, the US are resorting to the oldest trick in the book of colonial powers - divide and rule.

The Israeli assault on Lebanon was a premeditated attempt to cause a civil war in Lebanon as they had done in 1982. In this case it is also about neutralizing the threat of retaliation from Hezbollah prior to launching military attacks on either Iran or Syria.

We believe that the US want to ignite a conflict with Hezbollah and draw UN troops into the conflict and then blame Iran and Syria for what happened. This is all part of a long hatched plan for military action by the US and Israel against Iran and Syria.

US attempts to restart conflict in Lebanon should be a serious concern for the Irish government. Irish troops must not be drawn into becoming proxies in US and Israeli plans for war in Lebanon and across the Middle East. The Irish government should publicly disassociate itself from US and Israeli
policy and condemn their efforts to manipulate the UN.

It is folly for our government to have sent Irish troops into Lebanon when the US and Israel are so blatantly trying to restart a war and draw UN and Irish troops into it.

-end -

by omg Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:07

We believe that the US want to ignite a conflict with Hezbollah and draw UN troops into the conflict and then blame Iran and Syria for what happened. This is all part of a long hatched plan for military action by the US and Israel against Iran and Syria.

Do you forget so easily that Syria had to withdraw because they assasinated the lebonese PM Rafik Hariri? You have much to learn grasshopper

Syria have assininated many many people in lebanon, french ambassadors, Americans, Israelis and lots and lot of lebanese, they would love to get back in or better get the fanatical terrorist muslim organisation Hezbollah in full power to do their bidding for them

by indeed Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:19

i agree and think that hezbollah are trying to do what they have always stated they will do

take the country and then declare sharia law, isolating 60% of the population in the process

they have always said they will implement sharia law if they get full government

http://www.forlebanon.net/articles.php

by shazump Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:23

The Israeli assault on Lebanon was a premeditated attempt to cause a civil war in Lebanon as they had done in 1982

It was actually the PLO that caused the civil war. Dont try peddle that crap here son!

http://i-cias.com/e.o/leb_civ_war.htm

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:20

It's interesting how quickly the White House politics/strategy, articulated clearly by Tony Snow in Washington yesterday, get an echo today in Indymedia by our earnest friends.

While in Lebanon, leading political figures from the Government and the opposition are meeting next week to discuss projects for a National Unity Government, in order to rebuild the country part of which were destroyed by the barbaric Israeli invasion, and agree on plans to help the tens of thousands of refugees whose houses were destroyed and land peppered with cluster bombs..... the pro-war lobby is tumpeting......is preparing for another assault. Who is it going to be blamed this time? Snow says/warns that "manufactured demonstrations" (as opposed to what - spontaneous ones?) would constitute violations of UN resolutions.....hah!!

One of the reasons we in the IAWM invited Ibrahim Mussawi to come and talk to us about Lebanon and Hezbollah and its politics was precisely in order to counteract the bull that invariably comes from Washington and cloned here by most parts of the Irish media - including RTE......while parts of the Irish left watches from the sidelines.....and lectures us on religion and sharia law......my mind goes back to the anti-nuclear Carnsore days when, a few weeks after Three Mile Island and before Chernobyl erupted, the Workers Party, and a few Trotskyist sects, were lecturing the anti-nuclear movement that nuclear power under workers control should not be opposed......we all know what the Sticks did then and where they ended up today.

As for the latest shazump above calling me 'son'......I've been called many things in my life but this one takes the dog biscuit. Thanks but no thanks.

See you all tonight in Cork and tomorrow afternoon in Dublin

by Until Jerusalem Fri Nov 03, 2006 16:45

MichaelY - "It's interesting how quickly the White House politics/strategy, articulated clearly by Tony Snow in Washington yesterday, get an echo today in Indymedia by our earnest friends."

Michael's right. I personally got the call from the White House this morning. I was draining the corpse of a small Christian boy into the bath in preparation for my Chanukah Rotary Club meeting when the phone rang.

"Ari", the voice slurred "it's Tony here." Shit, he was drunk already. It's a bad sign when the White House press officer is drunk at 4am EST. "Our strategy is falling apart over on Indymedia Ireland. MichaelY is running rings around us. I mean, he's got Ibrahim Moussawi on his side. This is the guy who knows the _real_ story about the Protocols of the Elders of ZIon, for Christ's sake. His sources are impeccable. We need to discredit him. Activate your brainwashed online Zionist goon squad and get them to repeat the story that we'll plant on your national radio station tomorrow. Pretend they're independent secular left-wing critical opinions of a disturbing tendency for certain parties in the left-wing family to align themselves with reactionary anti-Semitic Islamists rather than, you know, meat puppets."

"Oh, and Ari, for God's sake, dipose of the kid's body properly this time. I can't keep flying CIA cleaners over to your apartment."