Court protest at Irish teacher hearing

by Ciarán Wed Jul 19, 2006 16:09

RTÉ News
19 July 2006 12:53

Woman claims she was held for speaking Irish

A Belfast teacher has contested a charge of disorderly behaviour at Belfast Magistrates Court and claimed she was arrested by the PSNI because she was speaking Irish.

Máire Nic An Bhaird, 24, from Woodside Walk in Dunmurry was detained by the PSNI after an incident on Belfast's Malone Road in May.

This morning's hearing was adjourned after Defence Solicitor Michael Crawford requested that all the papers in the case should be in Irish.

Mr Crawford argued that his client was a native Irish speaker and her whole environment was Irish.

The Resident Magistrate, Fiona Bagnall, adjourned the case until 6 September, giving the defence three weeks to make written submissions in support of the application to have the papers translated into Irish and giving the prosecution a further three weeks to respond.

A large group of Irish language activists, including Sinn Féin MEP Bairbre de Brún, staged a protest outside the court.

by Duine Wed Jul 19, 2006 17:14

Tuige nach dtugann éinne taobh na bpoilíní den scéal seo dúinn?

by Taibhse Seán Ó Riordáin Wed Jul 19, 2006 19:41

A native Irish speaker from Dunmurry?

Máire Nic An Bhaird may have learnt Irish in Dunmurry, she may speak it every day, but she would find it hard pressed to find other native Irish speakers in Dunmurry or South Belfast for that matter. There are those nationalists who have learned Irish to use as a weapon of propaganda but that doesn't make them native speakers. Native speakers are ones whose home, community and surrounding areas have Irish as their primary speaking language. Dunmurry clearly doesn't come into that category.

Where did she go to school? A native Irish language school in Dunmurry.

Ms Nic An Bhaird (Ward)'s solicitor claims that her client's whole environment was Irish. So I suppose they all speak Irish in her local Tesco, the pubs, doctors surgeries, schools, and just about everything else in Dunmurry. What if she takes a day trip to Belfast (or Dublin for that matter)? she wil be hard pressed to find Irish speakers in ordinary life and outside the rarified air of Gaelgeori land.

by iosaf Thu Jul 20, 2006 00:54

I suppose that would be more romantic, I'm sure it's the real reason people go to Irish pubs.


"a r.Oisin, na bhiodh bhron ort far eirigh dhuit-
Tá na báithe ag teacht thar sáile is iad ag triall ar muir,
Tiocfaidh do phrdún ón bPäpa is ón Róimh anoir
is ni sparálfar fion Spainneach ar mo R.óisin dubh."

(As the anonymous poem or ballad or lost epic lae from the 16th century Irish literature) (which we are all supposed to be acquainted with as part of our core sylabus) reminds
:- our language is subversive. But I for one can't get the fadas right, & never could. In either written or spoken form.

This woman deserves our support!

a lot of effort goes into Gaeilge.

by An capall mire - GAeil Óga Thu Jul 20, 2006 00:57

Scríobhfaidh mé mórchuid don mhéid atá le rá agam i mBearla don amadán aineolach a truallaíonn ainm an scríobhneora cluití, Seán Ó Ríordáin.

I'll keep this as simple as possible for the wayward contributer who is clearly suffering from confusion/ignorance. A native Irish speaker constitutes someone who is raised with Irish as their first language. That simple. Máire Nic an Bhaird fits this category. Her solicitor also referred to the fact that she teaches in a Irish language medium school that she also attended. Put simply,her home life and working life contituted 'environment' in his description. Both are subsumed with the Irish language. All clear so far.

Wayward contributer also mentioned that her local pub and Tesco couldn't facilitate 'irish' thus in some way diminishing the native speaker attribution. Even if it was accurate to say that nobody in local tesco or Pub could speak irish(which is assertive and unsubstantiated), how would this lessen claim to native speaker rights. Does the local Chinese person cease to be a native chinese speaker when he/she turns to English in local tesco while buying food? Cleared up...good. We'll move on.
As regards Máire's case, it can and should become the litmus test for the Rights of irish Speakers in the 6 county statelet. She was arrested by a bigot and an anti-irish racist in a brutal human rights violation. Language choice is a human right and Maire like all Irish citizens has a right to speak her language in her own country. We must have this entrenched in an Irish language act to ensure that racist infringements of human rights are a thing of the past. Today over 100 activists stood up for Máire and for themselves. There will be twice as many next time out.

Acht na Gaeilge anois! Is cearta daonna iad cearta teanga. Beirigí bua!

by Taibhse Seán Ó Riordáin Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:11

Somebody's blood pressure has been raised by my comment!

The point I was making was that Irish (Gaeilge) is not the vernacular language of Dunmurry or any part of the Six Counties / Northern Ireland / Occupied Ulster (whatever you want to call it). The British saw to that when they Planted it 400 years ago. They exterminated the Irish language even more thoroughly than they exterminated our people. Do not assume please, that I am anti-republican because of my comments, I am merely reflecting the fact that Irish, as a language of everyday useage, is all but dead outside of the Gaeltachts of the 26 counties (and boy is it struggling there too - only the grants keep it from dying completely).

Ms. Nic An Bhaird may speak Irish to her hearts delight, she may may even babble it daily to a few die hard Gaeilgeoiri, but that does not make it the vernacular. She cannot tax her car in the language, nor conduct normal business (except with the rare few). Irish has the status of the primary language in the 26 Counties (aka Republic of Ireland) but not in Northern Ireland.

Personally I condem the PSNI if reports of how she was treated are correct, but let's not start dreaming about a status that the Irish language has not got. There are no native speakers in Northern Ireland (except a few who've moved there from the southern gaeltachts perhaps). There are lots of Jailgeoirs (people who learned Irish in prison) and they've thought many more the language, but to expect the state to accommodate this is ludicrous.

If a Spanish or German citizen is before the courts (north or south) and does not have sufficient English to defend their case, an interpreter will be provided. This is not the case with Ms. Nic An Bhaird - she is perfectly capable of speaking English which is effectively her mother tongue. I

by Ciarán Thu Jul 20, 2006 16:39

"Ms. Nic An Bhaird may speak Irish to her hearts delight, she may may even babble it daily to a few die hard Gaeilgeoiri, but that does not make it the vernacular. She cannot tax her car in the language, nor conduct normal business (except with the rare few). Irish has the status of the primary language in the 26 Counties (aka Republic of Ireland) but not in Northern Ireland."

That's kind of the point of pushing for a Language Act for the Six Counties. Under the Good Friday Agrement...

"4. In the context of active consideration currently being given to the UK signing the Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, the British Government will in particular in relation to the Irish language, where appropriate and where people so desire it:
• take resolute action to promote the language;
• facilitate and encourage the use of the language in speech and writing in public and private life where there is appropriate demand;
• seek to remove, where possible, restrictions which would discourage or work against the maintenance or development of the language;
• make provision for liaising with the Irish language community, representing their views to public authorities and investigating complaints;
• place a statutory duty on the Department of Education to encourage and facilitate Irish medium education in line with current provision for integrated education;
• explore urgently with the relevant British authorities, and in co-operation with the Irish broadcasting authorities, the scope for achieving more widespread availability of Teilifis na Gaeilige in Northern Ireland;
• seek more effective ways to encourage and provide financial support for Irish language film and television production in Northern Ireland; and
• encourage the parties to secure agreement that this commitment will be sustained by a new Assembly in a way which takes account of the desires and sensitivities of the community."

Of course the British government isn't exactly fulfilling its responsibilties under the GFA or the ECRML, and so a Language Act is needed to ensure that the Irish language is accorded the space it deserves, and so that the rights of Irish speakers can no longer be trampled on.

And suggesting that she isn't a native speaker because of the Irish language's official status (or lack thereof) in this statelet is a ridicuolous argument.

by Taibhse Seán Ó Riordáin Thu Jul 20, 2006 18:47

Personally I'm not too worried about your little statelet, that's not the point. Forget the GFA too, nowhere does it commit to a situation where a person would be able to interact with the state through the Irish language - it's all vague commitments (like the rest of the GFA) to encouraging and promoting, but nowhere in black and white does it say you have the right to, for instance, give a statement to the police in Irish, give your testimony in court in irish, tax your car, get your social security or licence that flea infested mongrel in the Irish language. diddly squat!

I'm all for the Irish language. Wish to hell I could speak it better but this little statelet isn't much better. I'd rather let the language die peacefully than give a pretence that we have a living language, and in particular a living language where John Bull extirpated it 400 years ago. the Irish people got the option of "to hell or to Connacht" - the Irish language got "go to hell, do not pass go, do not come back" and that's the reality of it.

Ní bheidh ár leithéidí arís ann agus tá ár teanga tírtha bás. Amen.

by An capall mire - GAeil Óga Fri Jul 21, 2006 01:05

Just a wee note of for our wayward contributer who has plenty of time to learn much more about the folly of his botched assertions. In actual, it would be academic to list them in case any credibility was inadverently attached to them. Join réabhlóid na Gaeilge while you remain 'all for the language'. Earlier, my blood didn't boil dear fellow Gael. I might have grew a little impatient with some of your more ill-informed views. But that can happen sometimes, we are all human after all.

Nevertheless, if you log onto www.pobal.org which is the website of the irish langauge umbrella organisation there is a lot of hugely beneficail info about the committments the British have made under the charter for regional and Minority languages act (2001). You will also find the recommendations that POBAL have made for a comprehensive langauge act for the 6 counties which would include the complete rectification of the absence of Rights you pointed out so emphatically.

The British government have acceded to this demand for language Acts in Scotland and in Wales, we not our little statelet?? Yes, exactly! They view it as subversive and a non-language. You covered their brutal colonial history earlier which was met by resistance which also may inspire their bigotry and intransigence. It certainly is'nt because thay view it as dead, there are many more speakers of Gaeilge than there is of scottish Gaelic. Quite the opposite reasoning in fact. Therefore, fellow gael, the demand for a language act is not only reasonable but also logical. Máire's case highlights the need for it to be introduced....Send me your e-mail address fellow Gael in your next response and i'll keep you posted on the campaign. I look forward to seeing you on September 6th at the next protest...Beir bua agus Ádh mór.

by Taibhse Seán Ó Riordáin Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:25

Well bully for Scotland. Now I have a problem here. Either you are out for a United Irish Republic, completely separate from the UK and want nothing to do with it or its institutions or you are really a Home Ruler. As Ruairí Ó Brádaigh once said (and I'm no fan) "Damn your concessions England, we want our country....". So why would you want a language act from a country you regard as an oppressor, invader, etc. Sin a bhfuil. Tá mé ag dul air ais go dti an leaba anois.

by Duine Fri Jul 21, 2006 13:30

Cad a shocraigh an breitheamh?

by Ciara Fri Jul 21, 2006 15:50

Hi, I've been followign this story and tehre's still some things I dont understand. Why was this lady arrested in the first place? What were the circumstances leading to her being questioned? Please let me know, I want to keep up to date on this story!

by An capall mire - GAeil Óga Fri Jul 21, 2006 16:45

Dear Ciara,
I'll keep this as brief as possible. Máire was outside the Botinic and chatting in Irish with some of her teacher friends when a member of the PSNI exploded from his jeap screaming foul abuse and insults at her before demanding that she stop speaking that 'lepreachuan language' and speak the 'Queens English in her country'. When she refused to do so and answered him in her own language, he became enraged, assaulted, arrested and charged her for obstruction and disorderly behaviour. MÁire stood up for herself and the Irish language speaking community and should have the full backing of all right-thinking people. Language rights are human rights. Beir bua agus Ádh mór.

by Real Nationalist Fri Jul 21, 2006 16:53

So why didn't she answer him in English, given that the police officer clearly didn't speak Irish and English is the language in use in the North of Ireland? She clearly speaks English, so refusing to speak it to a non-Irish speaker is definitely obstruction! This is just a narrow nationalist trying to continue war by other means. Disgusting!

by Ciara Fri Jul 21, 2006 17:04

I'm genuinly shocked that this happened. I saw the Wind that Shakes the Barley last week, and I can't believe that 80+ years later, people are still not accepting and respecting irish as a language. I'm not in Belfast, but if I were, I would defintely go along to support. Best of luck!

by Duine Fri Jul 21, 2006 17:41

Más fíor leagan an chapaill mhire den scéal, is éagóir imeaglaithe atá ann.

Tuige nach bhfuil an bhean ag cur an dlí ar an bpoilín?

by An capall mire - g Sat Jul 22, 2006 21:59

A Dhune uasail, is cinnte gur fíor an leagan a thug mé fein do scéal Mháire agus tá sí ag cur cás in éadan na bpoiliní chomh maith. Coinnigh súil ar an scéal agus bí ag an chéad agóid eile ar an 6ú lá Meán Fomhair taobh amuigh de chúirt chois an lagáin. Seas an fód in aghaidh leatrom. Is cearta daonna iad cearta teanga. Beir bua agus ádh mór.

by An capall mire - GAeil Óga Sat Jul 22, 2006 22:21

Our so-called real nationalist might yet qualify in the 'right-thinking people' bracket if he/she can understand a few basic points. Both Irishness and the Irish language were recoginsed in the Good Friday Agreement and are enshrined rights. The State's is obliged to protect Irish people speaking their own language as a language of choice.

The PSNI member in question violated and obstructed Máire's human rights and that of her friends when he demanded that she/they speak English while simultaneously abusing her race and language. Máire like all irish speakers and bilingual people(70% of the world's population) will constantly facilitate people of different language choice when spoken to politely and with respect. In this case the direct opposite happened and the entire Irish speaking community in Ireland were disrespected by a narrow minded bigot representing a sectarian statelet which has yet to embrace Irish nationalist and their culture. I hope to see real nationalist on sep 6th standing up for the human rights of all. Tchfidh mé ansin thú a chara. Beir bua agus ádh mór.

by Pissed Off Sat Jul 22, 2006 22:40

If the evidence given here is true, that the woman was arrested for simply speaking Irish, then she deserves big support. What pisses me off though is that people who, through no fault of their own, are not able to speak Irish and cannot therefore understand some of the posts in Irish above, are needlessly and rudely excluded from the Irish contributions because of an arrogant refusal to offer some kind of translation, clearly doesnt matter a fuck to the die hards responsible. Yeah, yeah, we get the point, but it misses its target by several miles- we are not the ones you want to make your point to. Simple courtesy is appropriate in any context. 'Duine' is a case in point. What would it cost this person to help those who are well meaning by giving us a translation of his/her posts. We're not responsible for the fact we dont know our own language. You could help us make a little progress with it, from your position of superiority. But no, instead, you stay aloof and impervious to all such requests, determined to teach us all some sort of 'lesson' that none of us actually need to be taught. A little consideration and good will would go a long way.

The Irish language and culture are important, well worth the investment made in them - and more besides - but the humourless, elite Gaelgoiri are possibly the most offputting factor currently contributing to their demise.

by Duine Mon Jul 24, 2006 15:04

A chapall mhire - g,

Ní hé go raibh mé ag cur bréaga ort, ach is maith liom a mhéid leagan de gach scéal a chluinstin nó is fusa ansin bheith oibiachtúil.

Ar an drochuair, ní bheidh deis agam bheith i mBéal Feirste ach tá mé ar aon spiorad leis an agóid seo.

Is maith liom a léamh go bhfuil an bhean seo ag cur an dlí ar an bpoilín

by Ciara Mon Jul 24, 2006 17:37

I agree entirely with Pissed Off. Unfortunately, due to having lived abroad for the past 4 years, my irish is not as good as it should be (having noone to practise with).
I'll try and provide a translation, though I'm sure someone else could do alot better.

from "Duine" (person)

Ní hé go raibh mé ag cur bréaga ort, ach is maith liom a mhéid leagan de gach scéal a chluinstin nó is fusa ansin bheith oibiachtúil.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'd just prefer hearing every side of the story as far as I can.

Ar an drochuair, ní bheidh deis agam bheith i mBéal Feirste ach tá mé ar aon spiorad leis an agóid seo.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to be in Belfast, but I'm there in spirit.

Is maith liom a léamh go bhfuil an bhean seo ag cur an dlí ar an bpoilín

I'd like to read that this woman is putting the blame on the police.

How's that?

by Manninagh Sun Mar 04, 2007 01:45

To deny this lady her rights because she is in a minority is disgusting. There are many strong reasons for having court proceedings conducted in Irish. If Irish is not supported in Ireland then where will it be supported? It is a terrible shame that the language issue is so politicized. All people in these Isles who believe in cultural diversity understand the huge importance of Irish to European culture should be supporting Maire - as I am sure the Queen of England herself would agree.

by Duine Mon Mar 05, 2007 15:22

A Mhanninagh,
Ní fhéadfainn labhairt ar son banríon Shasana ach rialadh:
1) nach raibh cead an cás a chur faoi bháid na cúirte i nGaeilge
2) nár cheileadh a cearta ar Nic an Bhaird ó thaobh teanga agus
3) go raibh sí ciontach as "iompar mí-ordúil".

Gearradh fíneáil UK£100 uirthi.

Tá sí le achomhairc.

by marios Sun Mar 09, 2008 09:10

I'm from Cyprus. I don't speak Irish but I think it absurd that someone should be arrested for speaking his/her language in public. This is so undemocratic, it fits Hitler's Germany not the 21st century. Wake up. I don't see why Maire should not be able to use IRISH in public. I hate when I see people hating so much their own language and culture. Even though Northern Ireland is now sadly mostly monolingual English, I would expect other Northern Irish to sympathise with her even if they don't speak Irish.
Shame on you, Marios, Cyprus.

by marios Sun Mar 09, 2008 09:15

In Cyprus, no one would be arrested becasuse of their languagebe it chineese, german, irish, french not even Turkish and half of Cyprus is still occcupied by Turkey yet our police would never dare discriminate against anyone. I think it;s the policeman who should by judjed.