Haughey is dead

by nerraw Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:47

The whitewash is in full swing over at Rte News. Great lovely man etc, no mention of stealing a dying man's liver transplant money.

Not a bad word to say about the crook

by MG Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:51

Some previous indy articles

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/75163
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/66167

Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Haughey

The Moriarty Tribunal and Haughey
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/special/2000/moriarty/

The Socialist One attempt to rehabilitate Haughey last May
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0514/fiannafail.html

Then three days later new allegations of cash came out
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0517/mahon.html

by William H Tue Jun 13, 2006 13:23

"Charlie used to call me 'his favourite reporter'," was Charlie Bird's first response when asked for his views/memories of the great one.

by nerraw Tue Jun 13, 2006 13:25

Bird also said he was scared of him. Fascinating insight Charlie. The most courrupt politican Ireland has seen and that's your two cents.

by Victim Tue Jun 13, 2006 13:32

Haughey, we are told, has left plans for his own State Funeral.

These are huge expensive affairs, normally reserved for the nation to mark its approval of people whose example should be followed and aspired to by the rest of us.

Haughey was a bully, a liar, a thief and a cheat.

It is outrageous to suggest that after all he has stolen that the taxpayers should have to cough up for a fancy funeral for him.

But it is scandalous to sully the names of Ireland's heros, from all sides, who have had state funerals. We are being told that people who gave their lives for their country are no better than a crook,

by nerraw Tue Jun 13, 2006 13:34

McAleese is cutting short her visit to Africa to come home for the funeral. I would thought Africa would be of more importance and needed her presence more but that's Ireland for you.

by Dublin Exile Tue Jun 13, 2006 13:56

Some of the comments above truly indicate how out of touch some people are with the people of this country who they claim they wish to lead or speak for.

It is common decency in this country and in many others, that when a person dies our first thoughts are with the bereaved family, and if we have known the person, regardless of what sort of person they were, we bring to mind the good they did or the light they brought into the world.

Once the rituals of wake and funeral are over, then is the appropriate time to examine the legacy. This is the way it ought to be, the bereaved come first , then the rest of us.

Most people on this thread have reason to disagree with different aspects of Charlie Haugheys politics or legacy to the nation, but the fact that he was democratically elected Taoiseach cannot be disputed so there is no reason as to why he shouldn't be buried as one.

Thats the way we do things here and in every other democracy on the planet. Thats what the people expect and want.

(This comment is in response to abusive comments which have been removed - Editor)

by Green Ink Tue Jun 13, 2006 13:58

... so a little perspective is deserved. Lawlor's demise was a window on the future though- sure enough Haughey is being bandied as the loveable rogue who did a lot for the economy by misty eyed politicos, and Lawlor's praise bounced from wall to Opposite wall in the Dail when he died. On that, a little prediction for the future... Moscow business dealings are going to become a headache without cure for certain high ranking Irish investors/ junior ministers before the noughties are out...

by Dan Dangler - Caucus of Cosmic Absurdists Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:06

There once was a taoiseach called haughey
who loved fine wines and french coffee
while we gave up the sweet
just to make ends meet
he was stuffing his face with banoffi

by MG Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:09

Lets not fall into this nonsense of respecting the dead. I have no respect for Haughey and I never will. I have no sympathy for his family either who aren't the most innocent people when it comes to CJH's finances. Quite frankly those who are calling for respect for the dead now are usually the first people to rejoice in other people's misery.

As for CJH being democratically elected Taoiseach, when was this vote held Dublin Exile? When have we ever elected a Taoiseach? That is not the system we have, we elect the TD's (usually the local village idiots) and they elect the Taoiseach.
As a labour member Dublin Exile can we expect you and Dermot Lacey to publicly oppose the waste of taxpayers money that a state funeral for this man would be?

by boo hoo Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:35

Find it bizzare that people would change their opinion of a man just because he's dead. You'd swear the TDs were talking about St Brigid that time Liam Lawlor came to a sorry end under dubious circumstances - not in any way representative of what their constituents thought ....

by young anarchist Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:44

Honestly, people die all the time. Who cares if some rich fucker who ruined our country has kicked the bucket?

by Darragh Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:56

I read some of the comments that were posted here earlier and I have to say that for a website that is supposed to represent the best of the left in Ireland, it manages to attract a sizable clump of twits who seem to post here just to rant and rage against anything that represents power, present or past. I agree with the editor, people are entitled to rest in peace and let he who has not sinned, throw the first stone on this forum. I have had to review my opinion of the left after some of the comments I read here, some people here sound like raging idiots who just pass comment for the sake of creating offence.

by Young kid Tue Jun 13, 2006 14:58

You could at least have some respect for political figures who die, regardless whether they share your opinion or not. The man is dead now.

by Darragh Tue Jun 13, 2006 15:04

Here here, this thread shames those who call them socialists. Offending the dead is the lowest form of debate, open only to those who have no real argument to extend.

by Ron Tue Jun 13, 2006 15:07

Charlie: MARA?!!

Mara: eh..yes boss?

Charlie: Why aren't these gates open? Don't the gobshites know who I am?

Mara: I...ah...don't know boss. I've..ah..never died before..

Charlie: Oh spare me your whinging! Didn't I expressly decree that you would drink hemlock and be embalmed and placed in my tomb beside my marble coffin to serve as my eternal servant in the after life? Surely you could arrange for the shaggin gates to be open in advance? My God the incompetance I have to deal with....

Peter (A tall willowy and very scruffy looking bloke with untidy grey hair and a sulking puss) Greetings, I am Peter, the bearer of the golden keys of Heaven, Christ's Vicar, The Rock on Which the Church is built, the leader of the Apostles...

Charlie: Right here's my coat. Hurry up and open the gates you bearded nitwit! I'd like my own island, some nice shirts, some fine wine, a country villa, a fleet of helicopters, a throne and an iron sceptre.

Mara: I was wondering? Is Marylyn Monroe here? I can't wait to see her gazongas...

Peter: SILENCE!

Mara: Jayzuz...

Charlie: Hang on a minute....

Peter: I must check your names in the Book of the Righteous. Your names?

Charlie: Charles J. Hau... I mean.... Joe Higgins.

Mara: P.J. Mar.. I mean... Fintan O'Toole.

Peter: Oh Yes! You may proceed into Paradise. Welcome good and loyal servants of the Almighty!

A rather short figure clothed in white appears with a unshaven face and sunglasses shining like the sun with a golden crown upon his head and carrying a wooden cross and an electric guitar.

Jesus: Did I hear Joe and Fintan have arrived? Joe I was in prison and you visited me. I was hungry and you gave me food....

Charlie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I haven't time to chinwag. Were's the good plonk and the caviar? Can't you see I'm starving and DEAD from thirst?

Mara(mesmerised): Jayzuz your lookin well! Me mother prayed rosaries to you skinning her knees on the stone cobbles...ah.. ah.. (he wipes away a tear).. I'm delighted to meet yah! (embraces Jesus and breaks down in tears of joy).

Jesus: WAIT A MINUTE! YOUR NOT JOE! AND YOUR NOT FINTAN!

Peter: IT'S A RAT TRAP CHARLIE AND YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT!

Charlie: Now WAIT a SHAGGIN minute...

Mara: Arrah!

Jesus: DEPART FROM ME YE CURSED INTO THE FIRES PREPARED FOR THE SATAN AND HIS ANGELS!

He raises his hand to smite the two imposters with lightening.

(Charlie pulls a shining Harley Davison from under his toga)

Charlie: A friend of mine from Howth wanted to give you this back to you. He's very grateful to you and the rest of U2 but he likes his old Honda 50 to much to part with it.

Jesus: Well... I never really wanted to give it away...

Mara: Ah go on! Don't be so modest! Jayzuz me ol' flower!

Charlie: (Violins begin yo play) Despite my "flawed pedigree," my motives can be judged ultimately only by God but we cannot ignore the fact that I differed from my predecessors in that these motives had been and were widely impugned, most notably but by no means exclusively, by people within my own party, people close to me who had observed my actions for many years and who have made their human, interim judgment on me. They and others, both in and out of public life, have attributed to me an overweening ambition which they do not see as a simple emanation of a desire to serve but rather as a wish to dominate, even to own the State."

Jesus: Well... then hop aboard... There are many rooms in my father's mansions!

Charlie: Any chance of one all for myself?

Jesus: I'm stuck in a moment I can't get out of eh? It's yours. But you can't have my cowboy hat!

(Charlie and Jesus ride together into paradise aboard the motorbike as a choir of angels sing)

But the gates slam shut in Mara's face.

Mara: Well, fuck ye!

by I miss Charlies Tue Jun 13, 2006 15:29

Bring back Scrap Saturday!
I hope they play all the great sketches on the radio over the next few days.
I bet Charlie was a fan too!

by Tim Tue Jun 13, 2006 15:33

Ireland is a land of rogues and for a while we were ruled by the King of Rogues!
Arise and follow Charlie!

While 1980's Ireland was in a shambles at least we could all follow the GUBU soap opera in the Dail.

by Shane Tue Jun 13, 2006 15:40

I think Ron has made the only intelligent contribution in this entire thread.

by some say the devil is dead,the devil is dead...... Tue Jun 13, 2006 16:26

We now have a new group of corrupt suits running the coutnry, this changes nothing.He does not deserve a state funeral but, they should be reserved for heros, not criminals.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jun 13, 2006 16:28

MG I do not know why you have dragged me into this thread. I do happen to agree with Dublin Exile - whom I have not heard from in quite a long time.

Charlie Haughey was a democratically elected Taoiseach - never with my vote - but through the votes of the Irish people. I respect the right of the people in a democracy to make such choices. I also believe that Mr Haughey with all his faults did far more than the people hating, moaning, idealogical purists who have never achieved anything for anyone in their life whingers who occupy a lot of space on indymedia.

I also happen to know and like Sean Haughey who I believe has been an honourable and able Public Representative and extend my sympathies to him and his family in what for them is a sad family loss.

by MG Tue Jun 13, 2006 16:34

Darragh your post is off the wall.

"I read some of the comments that were posted here earlier and I have to say that for a website that is supposed to represent the best of the left in Ireland"
That is not what indymedia represents nor is it what its intended to represent. You haven't a clue what you are talking about. This statement is ridiculous.

"I agree with the editor, people are entitled to rest in peace and let he who has not sinned, throw the first stone on this forum."
How christian of you. Reality is completely different to this bizzare little world you live in. Comparing people here to Charlie Haughey is similar to comparing Haughey and Hitler. This comparative analysis is farcical.

"I have had to review my opinion of the left after some of the comments I read here, some people here sound like raging idiots who just pass comment for the sake of creating offence. "
Another idiotic statement, and they say bad things come in three's. Calling somebody corrupt before they die and calling them the same thing after they die is called CONSISTENCY. Consistency is something that I doubt someone as lacking in critical analysis as you would ever comprehend. Go and review your opinion of the left nobody here wants to read it. Go post it to the Haughey family, no doubt they will find it as funny as people here. The only person who sounds like a raging idiot is you Darragh, but thanks, you really made me laugh.

by niamhybeag Tue Jun 13, 2006 16:34

Right, so Charlie Haughey is dead. He was a very sick man so it comes as no shock to anyone . . .

What I find surprising is the speed at which the Haughey fanclub have reacted. They don't seem to have anything original to say about him, instead trotting out the same old crawling greasy obituary bull that they regurgitate at the death of any politician.

Charlie Haughey fucked this country over at the time when we needed leadership most . . he told us to tighten our belts while he bought charvet shirts and the imf were steps away from taking over the financial affairs of the state.

He cut back on the health service, the consequences of which we are now seeing with a huge number of managers and consultants, but a lack of actual care and filthy treament facilities falling apart before the accident and emergency patients eyes.

I will not say that i am glad that he is dead, or express any sorrow because either would be insincere. I instad wish that the wailing politicians will shoulder their terrible grief and fix the problems he and they have caused.

by MG Tue Jun 13, 2006 16:43

I asked you a question Dermot which you did not answer. I asked you because you read here regularly and you are a source of amusement to me. The "Government in waiting" of FG/Lab are talking about not wasting taxpayers money. In fact I got a leaflet into my office today from the "democraticaly elected Taoiseach in waiting" talking about FG/Lab not wasting our money. I asked whether yourself and Dublin Exile would oppose the waste of tax payers money on Haugheys funeral? Answer the question or is that to difficult for someone of your persuasion to do?

Also your definiton of democratically elected follows the same chain of thought that Bertie followed when he called himself a socialist.

by MG Tue Jun 13, 2006 16:49

Dermot Lacey says " also happen to know and like Sean Haughey who I believe has been an honourable and able Public Representative". This is very interesting, I for one must have a higher moral standard than Cllr Lacey does as I dont think any politician who took payments from property developers and then failed to declare them is in any way honourable. But then again Dermont is a politician with a party who went into government with FF.

by Darragh Tue Jun 13, 2006 17:14

Sounds like you don't have a clue what you are talking about MG. If all people were saying earlier about Charles Haughey was that he was corrupt and that there was consistency in that respect, I have absolutely no problem with that. You obviously did not see the earlier posts the the editor removed, so you are not properly informed of the situation and I'm not going to repeat them as it would then defeat the act on the part of the editor of removing them. The comments were an absolute disgrace to any person who would post them, here or anywhere else and that's what I was critical of.

This website does represent views that are strongly associated with the left, both in terms of its editorial and public commentary, if you dispute this you are obviously illiterate. I have no problem with left opinion, I'm socialist myself in my opinions, but I don't want to be associated with certain people coming on here and posting gravely offensive remarks against someone who is now dead.

I've noticed a trend on this site where people come on and just slate people in the most despicible terms simply because they can do so anonymously. When you challenge these people for facts to support their opinions, they are never forthcoming, just more bile is all that can be offered. Someone said earlier that CJ had ruined the country and everyone in it. Is is too much to ask for subjective discussion on a remark such as this, like for example, "why do you think he ruined the country and everyone in it"??? "What did he do policitically that brought this about???"

Your post proves in its entirity the point I'm making, which is that a lot of what is posted here is just rage, lacking any substance or opinion, just a rage against a person. If you have anything of substance to offer the discussion, please tell us what CJ did that disadvantaged any of us???

by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals) Tue Jun 13, 2006 17:25 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Oh i must buy him a mass bouquet,yeah right,maybe in his next life hell come back as a child livimg in extreme poverty in a working class area and watch the new taoiseach spend thousands on cosmetics and buy designer suits while all around him live in misery and surrounded by drugs,as an adult who grew up surrounded by drugs and misery and poverty while you were in power,all i can say is THANKS FOR NOTHING,DESTROY CAPITALISM,GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY NOW!!!

by Paddy Savage - Consistent life ethic(inc animals) Tue Jun 13, 2006 17:30 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Democracy on this planet,can you tell me wheir.id like to buy a one way ticket,oh and dont forget,6pm Trafalgar Square,the Saturday after Margaret Thatcher dies,a big party,hopefully with loadsa noisy techno from Umek and Regis/Female!!

by aunty trot Tue Jun 13, 2006 17:47

this would be a fitting tribute

by MG Tue Jun 13, 2006 17:54

Darragh I have seen the comments. All deleted comments are publicly archived and are accessed easily. This is an open publishing website, it happens that the vast majority of people who post here are socialists but that could easily change. You must be illiterate as this is all publicly stated, indymedia does exactly what it says on the tin, obey the editorial guidelines and then your piece stays up regardless of your political persuasion (except fascists). Its not rocket science Darragh. Also lets not pretend that just because people post on indymedia that there is some deep connection or association with other posters. I am not associated with you in any way and vice versa, just because I buy the Irish Times does not mean I have an association with other people who buy the paper. Some posters make ridiculous points and others vilify the dead, indymedia has editorial guidelines to try and eliminate the latter and posts get deleted as a result

The current problems in our Health service began under CJH, and massive corruption began in our political system under Haughey and countless bogey property deals took place under Haughey's government. You must be living in a cloud if you believe that CJH didn't disadvantage us. He took the country for a ride, ripped us off and encouraged corruption in our political system, amongst other things. He also evaded paying tax and now people like you are saying that we the tax payer should pay for his funeral. The only way I would agree to that would be if he gets buried in a big brown envelope.

by Con Carroll - Class war Tue Jun 13, 2006 18:28

just a personal contribution on the auld bastard that died Haughey
his death is a loss to no one
amazing that afer the so called inquiry into financial and political corruption
he never once was forced to be accountable
rember Lawlor AH

by Darragh Tue Jun 13, 2006 18:36

I think my point is clear, what is not clear is what your point is??? I don't want to be asociated with the views that some people expressed here today, you on the other hand obviously think that you are snow white so therefore can criticise people who cannot come here to defend themselves.

So what if the problems in the Health Service started on his watch??? He was duly elected Taoiseach, he made good decisions and he made bad decisions, he had good results and bad results. What would you prefer, that we do away with democratic elections and hand the country over to someone like yourself who clearly has all the answers??? His corrupt activities exclusively related to him lining his own pockets with the private wealth of private individuals. He ended up paying his tax through a 3 million Euro settlement with Revenue in 2003, which included interest & penalties. Give the man and his family a break and stop your whinging. He get's a state funeral, big deal, life goes on, deal with it!

by Darragh Tue Jun 13, 2006 18:37

Correction, he settled his tax affairs for 5 Million Euro in 2003.

by John - dunaree2000 Tue Jun 13, 2006 18:38

Some posters here either have short memories or are too young to remember the 1980s. I'm referring to the allegations that Haughey was somehow responsible for the fact that Ireland was in the doldrums in the 1980s. Actually, it was a Fine Gael/Labour coalition that was in power for most of the 80s and it was under that Government that most of the bad things that we remember from the 1980s (e.g. mass unemployment and mass emigration) took place. This fact has recently been airbrushed out of history by various left-wing opinion-formers in the media who would like us to believe that Haughey was in power in Ireland throughout the 1980s and that the disastrius 1981-1987 Fine Gael/Labour Government never existed. Haughey first became Taoiseach in December 79, but only remained in power for a mere 18 months. During those 18 months the Iranian crisis took place which led to a quadrupling of oil prices and a world recession. So, its hardly fair to judge him on the basis of such a short stint in office at a time of global recession. After that, apart from another brief stint of about 6 months in 1982, Haughey was out of power until March 1987. It was during those 6 years from 1981 to 1987 that the things we now associate with the Ireland of the 1980s took place; the feeling of hopelessness, the 25 per cent unemployment, the mass emigration, the roaring inflation, the huge deficits in the public finances etc etc. When Haughey returned to power in March 1987 he immediately set about tackling those deficits. The result: within a few months the Irish economy was growing as never before and it hasn't stopped growing since. Despite this, I was never a fan of Haughey, mainly because of his flirtation with extreme republicanism and because, prior to his conversion to sensible economics in the late 1980s, he was actually a tax-and-spend politician of the type much favoured by the left.

by Darragh Tue Jun 13, 2006 19:11

Sounds plausible enough to me, what is set out above. Kind of makes you wonder what all the "he ruined the country and all of us" is about??? Kind of blows out of the water the hypersensationalist crap that some people put up here...

by gas_ticket Tue Jun 13, 2006 19:14

No-one should underestimate the damage caused to Ireland by the likes of Charles Haughey. The extent of the corrupt activities that have gone on is enormous. Untold national wealth was spent in paying for bullshit projects that were signed off by people like CJ Haughey. Everything from dodgy road repairs, unnecessary construction projects, and efforts to keep people in cars and off public transport made it possible for Haughey and his cronies to continue their lifestyles, funded by the businessmen who got the jobs.

We ended up with the transport system, health care, and other crises that cause us endless aggravation every day. Thanks, Charlie!

Those in power now, who are just as corrupt, need to know that there will at some time be a momente juste, that they will be reviled in this life, and throughout history.

Unlike those who say that now is not the time to be harsh on Haughey, I say that this is the right time to reveal all. If I had the time, I'd go to his funeral and stand with my back to the divil.

If we had enjoyed a real democracy, imagine the Ireland we might have inherited from that ba$tards generation. Instead, it was business as usual, jobs for the boys, and more of the same.

Bury him at sea, preferably in the sewage outfall at Ringsend.

by Gaz B -(A)- Tue Jun 13, 2006 19:37

the man lifted at least 20 grand from brian lenihans liver fund, in 66 he convinced rte not to cover the presidential campaign of FGs Tom O'Higgins, dodgy beef, macarthur, phone tapping, ben dunne, silk shirts, private island, yachts etc etc what a legacy.

by Democratic fan Tue Jun 13, 2006 19:44

Some of the comments here really churn my stomach. Sure the Man had his bad side to him like we all have but surely he deserves to have a peaceful funeral and the right to a dignified one too, free from names and insults. We don't need to be reminded about all the tribunals he sat before again. We were sick of seeing them on T.V but it isn't appropriate to bring all these up during the time his funeral is taking place. The same would go for any other politican including the 'left' ones too.

by .:. Tue Jun 13, 2006 19:45

They will call your name - forget this world of veiled tears & passing bitter pleasures.
They will beat drums - like a funeral in your brain, look to the plumed horses' heads as they face eternity.
They will sing your praises as they curse you in equal measure - but you can do nothing now.
Do not hesitate or falter, do not haunt the quick flesh left behind - begin your walk.
Go to to the last Irish sunset of the Atlantic - & first pay the ferryman.
When the living stop calling your name - you will be truly gone.
Relax !!!! -
They're already lighting candles & writing books & shooting TV to stop your name being called.

life is precious = live it well. It is much how you will be remembered & forgotten. What you gave not what you did. RIP

by Gaz B -(A)- Tue Jun 13, 2006 19:52

if the media continue their coverage about this single corrupt man and his legacy for the rest of the week they can't simply whitewash his record as some would like. i wish people in Fianna Fail and the media were all as concerned with the thousands of deaths occuring in iraq that ff is facilitating or the mysterious circumstances surronding the deaths oTerrence Wheelock, Brian Rossiter or John 'Johnner' Moloney in garda custody.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jun 13, 2006 20:10

To answer the question I have no difficulty with Mr Haughey being given a State Funeral. I think his family deserve it and I don't care what your poster says I like Sean Haughey and believe he deserves my sympathy on the death of his Father.

by - Tue Jun 13, 2006 20:19

Sympathies to Maureen and the children.

how to organise your own state funeral :-

a Bereavement Grant (currently €635) from the Department of Social and Family Affairs where the person who died has paid the relevant social insurance contributions. If you are the insured person, it is also payable if the person who died is your spouse or dependent child. Employees, including civil and public servants, and self-employed are covered by this scheme.
http://www.comhairle.ie/publications/entitlements/publi...ml#bg
(Don't forget to enclose the funeral bill and the death certificate (or newspaper notice) with the Application Form)
Legal restricitions apply to both motor limousines and horse drawn carriages. Mourners must be organised in groups of 7. And the transport of the corpse must have one driver and one extra whose job it is to cope with any unforseen little accidents (such as droping the casket whilst going over a bump). Legal restrictions also apply to the land on which you may bury your loved one / rival. Plots vary in priced from 500€ to almost 1000€ depending on location, Dublin's most famous graveyards are now almost full, but the government working with the Irish association of funeral directors has opened new cemeteries throughout the state where the value of real estate is arguably the highest in the land, but there your loved one will count on limited security personel who keep an eye out for the unlikely event of someone spray painting "smack dealer" over the headstone. It is important to remember that newspaper announcements are expensive, and if you want all the main suspects / rivals / loved ones to walk behind your remains you'll have to phone in your advert well before hand, generally a quick call to the crime desk along the lines of "jayzhus we've a gang war here" will suffice to excite interest and reduce cost. Please note that according to the guidelines of the industry Funeral Homes will ensure that all advertising is sombre, dignified and in accord with the highest standards.

you mightn't get all that on 635€ but you could pass the hat.

by Erica Turgida - / Tue Jun 13, 2006 21:06

A small donation to the charity of your choice

suggested funds:
Ex Afghan hunger-strikers, (who need money, only being receipt of 19euros per week.
Orla Kaiser's legal Fund.
RAR.
LASC.
Pitstops Ploughshares.
Shell to Sea.
Please add ,( as you see fit).

by ringsendreds Wed Jun 14, 2006 00:33 mofrazer at gmail dot com

It makes me sick to hear all the politicians, media reporters, lamenting the passing of CJH .

Like many TDs and councilors today he was as bent as they come. Don’t forget, only for his “ill” health he narrowly missed getting a jail term.

Sure I am sad for his family. But.....
There will be no TEARS shed from my family for CJH.

It is somewhat ironical that he will be laid to rest close by the grave sides of the un-identified victims of the "Stardust Fire"

by geoff Wed Jun 14, 2006 01:51

but pragmatically so. He, like John Dunaree 2000 said, kickstarted the economy in 87. He changed the plans for Templebar to be a friggin bus depot into what it is today; a great money spinner for Dublin what with all the drunken stagparty Brits. Plus, the right wing Economist magazine hated him as did Maggie.

"no mention of stealing a dying man's liver transplant money."

If you are referring to Brian Lenihan, Brian's son Conor was on the tv tonight praising Charles.

I didn't like him because I'm currently unemployed and little Napoleans tend to get up my nose. Objectivly speaking though, he got this country up and running, even if he did have the bad taste to sleep with Terry Keane.

A cursory reading of some of the comments here would have one thinking that we were talking of the demise of Pol Pot.

Hate to say it, but

Rest in Peace, Dodgy one.

by N.A. Revisionist Wed Jun 14, 2006 01:54

And let's not speak ill of Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot or any other head of state just because they bought the big one...

NEWSFLASH.

Charles Haughey's family are not exactly saints.

Respect for the dead when they truly deserved respect.

And only bloody then.

by Donnchadh Wed Jun 14, 2006 02:02

He wasnt the worst as free state politicians go - at least he spoke Irish which is more than you can say for most of them, and at least he made an attempt, no matter how incompetant, to supply much needed arms to the resistance in the six counties in 1970. And as for getting a free state funeral - its not much of an honour.

by shhhhh! Wed Jun 14, 2006 02:05

When the unpopular or disreputable yet unquestionably powerful die - you should take some time to see who is lining up behind the hearse & is ready to walk the walk, who cancels the engagements of states & talks the talk - who shake the hands that feed & bind : like all good mafia movies or papal funerals :-
in short - shhhhhhhhhhh! you little langer. Its been a while since we had someone lying in state in open casket for 4 and half hours, and sure Donneycarney never saw the like since the death of Brian Boru and the boundary commission of 1192 that changed Clonturk into Clontarf and moved it a full 3 kilometres westwards.
Have a look around the rest of the news stories if you want to vent your spleen & use up your insults now. Loads on offer this week!!!! Did you like that Zarqwuark man in the Iraqi Al Qaeda? Any thoughts on either of our cultural options Ligeti or Borges? You could have a go at Harney or Mc dowell or even Thatcher plenty of life left in them for now.

by Sharon - Individual Wed Jun 14, 2006 09:01

' With pomp and with ridiculous display
the politicians corpse is borne away ,
and all around him carped and slanged
I wept- I had wished to see him hanged ' .
( G K Chesterton , poet and British Liberal MP ) .

Sharon.

We will , unfortunately , see his likes again .

by MG Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:41

"I think my point is clear",
No its not Darragh, its clear your points are nonsensical and your interpretation and analysis are off the wall.

"what is not clear is what your point is???"
I can't put it any clearer, even a child would understand it, this man was corrupt and he should not receive a state funeral. It is also the case that FF have been trying to rehabilitate his image for a while. Now with his death they will attempt to speed that process up for the next general election.

"I don't want to be asociated with the views that some people expressed here today"
You aren't associated with them. Only an idiot would think otherwise

" you on the other hand obviously think that you are snow white so therefore can criticise people who cannot come here to defend themselves."
Another idiotic statement. According to your logic nobody can criticise anybody, ever. This is perhaps the most idiotic statement you have made and it is such a big pool of idiocy to choose from.

"So what if the problems in the Health Service started on his watch???"
Yeah so what, how many people have died as a result, but so what

"He was duly elected Taoiseach, he made good decisions and he made bad decisions, he had good results and bad results. What would you prefer, that we do away with democratic elections and hand the country over to someone like yourself who clearly has all the answers???"
According to you, you're a socialist. I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion with statements like this above. Either you are a child or expect everyone here is an absolute fool to believe that you have a shred of any kind of socialist thought. The statement above is sheer fantasy and is a total misrepresentation of what I have said.

"His corrupt activities exclusively related to him lining his own pockets with the private wealth of private individuals. He ended up paying his tax through a 3 million Euro settlement with Revenue in 2003, which included interest & penalties. Give the man and his family a break and stop your whinging. He get's a state funeral, big deal, life goes on, deal with it!"
He lined his pockets with donations meant for his party, and for a fund for a liver transplant for one of his "friends". Bertie signed blank cheques for the man, and he introduced massive corruption into our political system. He was an elected politcian who saw himself as above the law, i.e. do as I say not as I do. He was always too sick for the courts but would then be photographed out enjoying himself. He was corrupt and has done massive damage to the politcal system and also the reputation of the political system in this country. And it is a disgrace that the tax payer is now being forced to pay for this corrupt fella's funeral. Also the full truth of his corruptiuon will now follow him to the grave. The man was a disgrace and no FF'er will ever be able to rehabilitate him.

Also John Dunaree save your FF/PD general election manifesto for some deluded idiots who weren't around for that period and who might believe your usual fantastical bullshit.

by Ruri Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:42

Never liked the guy, would never vote for Fianna Fail anyway but a state funeral is justified as he was a fomer Taoiseach and we should salute the rank, not the man

by MG Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:46

I dont want to compare Haughey with Hitler but according to your logic Ruiri we should also salute mass murderers like Hitler and Pinochet becuase of whatever rank they achieved. That kind of analysis needs to be shot down straight away. You should never blindly salute or give them your respect.;

by A10 Wed Jun 14, 2006 13:45

To the Irish people,or to my generation who grew up in the 80's when that old bastard was saying to tighten our belts,or please fuck off to England or America and dont forget to send money home to our families.
While he and his cronies were living it up on our expense or whoring it around with social gossip scribblers.Unfortuneatly,the fact is he was Taosieagh and is therefore entitled to a state funeral.However I would suggest that when we have to drag his carcass up O Connell St,that no one attends or those who hold the man in utter contempt turn their backs on the procession. It would be a fitting tribute to a corrupt little dictator.
So perish all tyrants.

by M Cotton Wed Jun 14, 2006 14:25

More than anyone else, Haughey was responsible for establishing the corruption culture which is destroying Irish politics and society. It would be an important signal to his 'loyal' supporters and other apologists for Haughey that this issue is not going away if people protested by turning their backs on the procession (as suggested above) or by holding up 'End Corruption' posters along the way the route. If anything, we should make it so that his death is an event that resurrects the debate about corruption in Irish public administration. Today's newspapers are stomach churning, in the main but none perhaps as astonishing as the extraordinary piece in by Vincent Browne in Village last week. The rehabilitation and revisionism had begun before he even died.

by Kieran O'Sullivan - NONE Wed Jun 14, 2006 14:39 kieran.osullivan at ireland dot com

Perhaps the worst story, which I have heard about Haughey, is the story that Chrisey Keegan (mother of Mary and Martina who died in the Stardust) tells. Haughey came to her house and in her words cried at her kitchen table and said how terrible it was that she had lost two children. What makes this so awful is the connection between the Haughey’s and the Butterly’s, which Haughey denied to her face on that day.

I’m sure that other people have lovely stories to tell but they would have to be very extraordinary to beat the cruelty of that!

I had intended to write more pointing out that Haughey wasn't the only corrupt person in Irish government but screw it he's dead and at least he can lie in state and his family can have an open coffin which is a lot more than the Stardus victims got!

by jasus Wed Jun 14, 2006 14:51

Of course he was very corrupt, but really no more than most irish politicians--where else in the world today can a building/construction company submit a quote(a cheap one) for some government works and then run 10mill,20mill,50mill over and the government of the day actually pays them the extra--not fines them as most countries do, shure tis like they never heard of penalty clauses in this great land, no more corrupt than the many still shaking around presently, only he got busted a bit more so perhaps a bit more stupid than the rest..rip

by Donnchadh Wed Jun 14, 2006 17:14

Its utter nonsense to say that Haughey brought in corruption to the free state. The free state was a corruption from the beginning. The first act of a new member to the free state parliment was to swear a fake oath of allegience to the British monarch. Michael Collins declared that swearing allegiance to British Imperial Law was a “Stepping Stone” to re-installing the republic that the same oath of allegiance had just overthrown. Is that not the perfect example of cute-hoorism? What else could flow from such a perversion of logic than the brown envelope politicians that populate Leinster House.

by Brian Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:05

Q. What's the difference between Charlie Haughey and an Aran jumper?
A. One's a country craft.

by Brian Lampard - Landspeed Transport Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:17

Goodbye Charlie we will NOT forget you... After all you alone drained this country of millions of pounds and now us tax payers have to pay for your state funeral... The oul saying goes "he must be turning in his grave" Well you have got away with everything now, No prison, No Punishment and still claiming expences till your death and living in Abbeville house free of charge, Well you will be dancing in your grave with a smug grin on your face.. You are nothing but dog dirt.................

by ringsendred Wed Jun 14, 2006 19:26

Kieran as a family member was killed in the Stardust, I do know of this story.
I also know that this story is only the tip of the iceberg. There is alot more links with CJH and the Stardust.

by prodolic Wed Jun 14, 2006 20:41

"a failed political entity",

well, it seems that the failed Northern state has out lived him!!

by Spinning Quickly Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:15

I'm certainly not surprised at the "ah sure wasn't he a grand lad" guff. They'd already beatified him while he was still alive - I'm sure that it won't be long before Fianna Fáil are offering prayers to squire...er Saint Charley of Kinsealy!

by Darragh Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:16

MG

If people come on here and speak about someone dead in dispicible terms, and others like yourself come on here and agree with them or don't disagree with them , then you are supporting them and you are associated with what they say. Obviously it's acceptable to you to be an appeaser, but appeasement is what brought Hitler to power and I don't believe in standing in a room and watching the lunatic(s) in the corner abuse and offend people. That's why I have made a point of deploring some of the comments posted here, because if I didn't, I'd be associated with you and those like you who want to jump up and down on a mans grave. Sadly you cannot understand the simple understanding of the word "association".

Charles Haughey was part of a dysfunctional system, namely politics. To be in politics, you must be corrupt, sly, cunning and devious. The whole cut and thrust of party politics is about doing private deals to get one up on the others in the party in order to obtain favour from those who make the decisions as to who gets the trappings of political office. This is what the system is, the alternative is that we live in a banana republic with dictators wearing green military uniforms and militia running around in open back Nissan jeeps. Unless you're somone like Joe Higgins, you're in politics for the political patronage, excellent pay & conditions and the power.

I've already made my points above about who he obtained money from and I'm not going to repeat myself because you obviously can't accept anyone else's opinion but your own.

The man was Taoiseach, he was duly elected by the people and we had no problem with him when he was in office. As was said above, respect the rank and not the man.

by Sharon - Individual Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:26

The man was Taoiseach, he was duly elected by the people and we had no problem with him when he was in office.

It appears obvious from the posts on this thread that "we" did indeed have "problems" with the man when he was in Office .

Sharon .

by Darragh Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:28

The pure stupidity of some posts here is breathtaking. Are we supposed to believe that if Charlie Haughey didn't exist that we would have perfect politicians and no corruption and everything would be perfect and dandy!?!?!?!?! Absolute power corrupts absolutely and nowhere is this more true than in politics. Look at Pat Rabbitte and Enda Kenny smarming over each other before the next election!

Does anyone here really think either man has anything whatsoever to offer this country??? The two of them want POLITICAL POWER, they want the ministerial Merc & state driver, they want the extra income, they want the big ego that you get when you are in government. They won't give a shite about your granny on the trolley in The Matter or the people who are afraid to leave their homes after dark because their neighbourhood turns into a "NO-GO" area when kids start running amok, drinking undarage and burning cars!

It's the system that is rotten to the core, we accept the system as it is and we engage with the system every 5 years to elect another set of corrupt arseholes. One man shouldn't be singled out for being "corrupt", it's like saying a man getting out of the sea will be soaking wet and having a problem with this, he is wet by virtue of the environment is is removing himself from, don't be surprised...

by Darragh Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:33

Don't see anything on that site to agree with you Sharon. He was replaced by Albert Reynolds in 1992, it's not like we rejected him at the ballot box. That is what I meant when I say we had no problem with him back then, we voted for him in 1987.

by iosaf Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:37

Quite simply because all this "respectful clenching of tongues" is "fascinating stuff". The best little gem I've seen so far was on last night's RTE evening news which I watched on internet.
The little gem I'd like you all to wonder at - was the priest of Donnycarney where the state funeral will be held on Friday. They introduced his clip by showing the "Garda presence" (it would be awful if Donnycarney church was blown-up with half the VIP's of Ireland and her diplomatic corp inside) and in teh corner of that "security" shot was a man hard at work : painting the railings. I presume after the railings are painted they'll weed and clean up the stain glass on the outside and generally "tartify" the place. Then the clip cut to the curate :-
"oh well its great to see Charlie Haughey returning to his roots". [big smile]
"& we're very happy to welcome him" [grin from newly polished & painted ear to ear]

As I said - this is "fascinating stuff" its also "ironic" an unkind type would openly suggest the priest in Donnycarney really meant exactly what he said. "we're very happy to welcome him" ..............."d-e-a-d or a-l-i-v-e".

by Irishman in St. Petersburg Wed Jun 14, 2006 21:55

Sometimes I miss the land of my fathers . . . and at other times I'm glad that there's the whole of Europe and a large chunk of the former Soviet Union between me and it.

Here's my two pence.

Most Irish people have a 'few bad men' theory of social problems.

If we can only get rid of this or that group of 'bad people' then everything will be alright, or so some of us think.

The trouble with that one is, if the basic defects are there in the structure of our society as a whole, then the removal of this or that group of 'bad people' will make little or no real difference. Certainly the carnival of corruption will continue whether or not CJH is alive or dead.

But does that mean that CJH and his ilk should be allowed to wriggle off the hook, even posthumously? Absolutely not!

They may have served the needs of a corrupt system, but that system couldn't have sustained itself without them. So discredit where it's due, thank you very much, so long as it links CJH's personal corruption with the corruption of the wider society.

When I think of Haughey right now I think of Hunter S. Thompson's obit of Richard Nixon (in many ways Haughey was the Irish Nixon). . . I'm sure you can find it on the net somewhere. We could do with a voice like that in our mass media at some point in the next few days. Not much chance of that happening, of course - the organisation of our society as a whole won't allow it.

If the Irish social structure is to continue in its present form, so that some get the gold mine and others the shaft, black must be presented as white, up as down, and the corrupt and dodgy as saintly and heroic.

One last thing - I think Haughey was actually right about the north. Certainly, there doesn't seem to be much hope of the assembly being restarted before the November deadline. Looks like a 'failed entity' to me.

by Sharon - Individual Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:05

Hi Darragh !

Don't see anything on that site to agree with you Sharon.
What site ? I was referring to this site ie [as stated] - "It appears obvious from the posts on this thread that "we" did indeed have "problems" with the man when he was in Office ."

He was replaced by Albert Reynolds in 1992, it's not like we rejected him at the ballot box.
Matter a damn who replaced him - the party and system that that 'replacement' presided over is as corrupt as they are . And perhaps you never "rejected him [and his] at the ballot box" but , believe it or not , some of the posters on this thread (ie on this site) did .

That is what I meant when I say we had no problem with him back then, we voted for him in 1987.
By "voting for him" , were "we" giving him a blank cheque to rip us off ? You seem to suggest that "we" should simply accept that being ripped-off by political leeches is part of the territory once you vote for them .

Sharon .

by Darragh Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:24

Thankfully Sharon it's not the majority of people who post on Indymedia that determines a government as you suggest but the majority of the electorate. That's who I'm referrring to when I say "we". When we vote for corrupt people who are going to be placed in a corrrupt system they are only going to be one thing: CORRUPT. The corruption did not start with him as sure as it will not end with him. People coming on here are attacking the man instead of the system, if it was a problem with the man, he would be the only corrput politican we ever saw, and we all know that this isn't true, so this just proves my point!

by Sharon - Individual Wed Jun 14, 2006 22:56

"Thankfully Sharon it's not the majority of people who post on Indymedia that determines a government as you suggest but the majority of the electorate. That's who I'm referrring to when I say "we". "
I was referring to the fact that a majority of posters on this thread do indeed have " a problem" with Mr. Haughey and all he stood for . Would you agree ?

" When we vote for corrupt people who are going to be placed in a corrrupt system they are only going to be one thing: CORRUPT. "
Do you , Darragh , knowingly vote for "corrupt" people ? Why ?

" The corruption did not start with him as sure as it will not end with him."
But he squandered an opportunity to change or , at the very least , to challenge that corrupt system - he jumped right in to the greasy till with the rest of his bent political buddies , proving that he was no better , or worse , than them . And you think he should be commended for that , do you ?

" People coming on here are attacking the man instead of the system, if it was a problem with the man, he would be the only corrput politican we ever saw, and we all know that this isn't true, so this just proves my point! "
Your 'point' - ie 'that the system is to blame rather than those that operate it" - is utter rubbish , and only serves to offer corrupt politicians a moral exit which they do not deserve . You are an apologist for political criminals , Darragh . And , as you thus attempt to 'explain away' their crimes , some Haughey clone or other has his/her hand in your wallet . And , even worse - you practically invited them to do so .

Sharon .

by Darragh Thu Jun 15, 2006 00:07

Sharon,

No Sharon, I don't vote for corrupt people, I vote for Joe Higgins TD at election time because I know the man, I believe in his integrity and I believe in his policies and his vision for this country. Sadly the majority of the country don't agree with me so I live in a country where I don't support the government, but that's democracy. I'd rather this than live in a banana republic. I'm not an apologist for Charles Haughey, but I think the man should be allowed a dignified passing and he should be given a state funeral if his family want to accept this.

In this country, the political parties (FF, FG, Labour, PD's, SF), actually get millions of Euro each year from the state so that they can re-elect themselves. How fucking corrupt is that??? If i wanted to go up against my local FF TD in this constituency here, I'd have a battle on my hands because I'd be up against a party political machine that I'm actually paying for.

This is corruption in the system??? If it is corruption, is CJ responsible for this??? Did you ever put pen to paper to register your objection to this practice???

Compared to what I feel when I think of Charles Haughey, who I accept was corrupt, this makes me want to throw up! Our TD's don't have to account for their expenses, instead they just claim what they want and the bills are paid. Try doing this next time you go to work and see how long you last.

This is corruption in the system??? If it is corruption, is CJ responsible for this??? Did you ever put pen to paper to register your objection to this practice???

I imagine you accept the corruption above and much more, but are happy enough to come on here and moan about one person who can't come here and defend themselves.

If you feel that strongly about corruption where you begrudge an ex-taoiseach a state funeral, why don't you start being a little more vocal on the corruption that is under your nose every day in the country in 2006, rather than castigate someone who is now dead and who last participated in politics in 1992???

by pundit Thu Jun 15, 2006 00:20

Where's the map of Donnycarney?
I want to log in here, learn about the propensity of rich japanese widows of the great creatives of the 20th century and then :-
what are the odds on a terrorist attack? eh??????
who will do it? Taliban? London asians in dinky beards? Loyalists? Skangers in celtic T-shirts? ETA???
Do the Gardaí and ERU have the golf park covered?
Will the DART have usual service?
What access road will be used by the cortege and dignatories?
Will there be helicopter telly like there was for George Best's funeral?
Will the number 27B be running as usual?
Have instructions been made to all diplomatic legations of the Irish state to return to the Tricolour to full mast after the funeral or... will one be able to photograph an Irish consular flag at half mast (as done today) on a difficult to access rooftop on Saturday considering this will mean a member of the Consular staff staying after hours - is that in the partnership deal too???????

Jayzhus. you'd swear none of you'd seen a state funeral before.

by Sharon - Individual Thu Jun 15, 2006 01:21

" No Sharon, I don't vote for corrupt people, I vote for Joe Higgins TD at election time because I know the man, I believe in his integrity and I believe in his policies and his vision for this country. "
And you think by putting one 'good apple' into a barrel of 'bad apples' that that will change the 'bad' ones into 'good' ones ? You said it yourself , Darragh - the system is corrupt .

" Sadly the majority of the country don't agree with me so I live in a country where I don't support the government, but that's democracy. I'd rather this than live in a banana republic. "
But this is a "banana republic" - it [this State] has never been otherwise !

" I'm not an apologist for Charles Haughey, but I think the man should be allowed a dignified passing and he should be given a state funeral if his family want to accept this. "
Regardless of what his family want , the late Mr. Haughey should , I believe , be accorded no State trappings : he shit all over the taxpaying people of this State during his 'career' , lived like the 'Lord' he considered himself to be whilst telling us that we were "living beyond our means" . Let Fianna Fail accord him 'honours' , by all means , and pay for it themselves .

" In this country, the political parties (FF, FG, Labour, PD's, SF), actually get millions of Euro each year from the state so that they can re-elect themselves. How fucking corrupt is that??? If i wanted to go up against my local FF TD in this constituency here, I'd have a battle on my hands because I'd be up against a party political machine that I'm actually paying for."
And it was 'Lord' Haughey and those like him that employed that system , which we were paying for , to 'screw' us even further ! The least we can do , in terms of hitting back , is to stop supporting them .

" This is corruption in the system??? If it is corruption, is CJ responsible for this??? Did you ever put pen to paper to register your objection to this practice???"
"CJ" is as responsible as the rest of them for , as I already stated , not only working a corrupt system but refusing to challenge that corrupt system . And yes , Darragh : I have challenged this rotten system in writing , and on the internet , and on the picket line , and on protest marches etc and will continue to do so .

" Compared to what I feel when I think of Charles Haughey, who I accept was corrupt, this makes me want to throw up! Our TD's don't have to account for their expenses, instead they just claim what they want and the bills are paid. Try doing this next time you go to work and see how long you last. "
Does Joe Higgins not do that , too ? Is it , in your opinion , okay for some to profit from a corrupt system , but not okay for others ?

" I imagine you accept the corruption above and much more, but are happy enough to come on here and moan about one person who can't come here and defend themselves."
You , Darragh , have wrote here in relation to one such person in the employ of a system which you (rightly) consider to be "corrupt" - I have not done so . You , Darragh , therefore accept that corruption and encourage it . I do not .

" If you feel that strongly about corruption where you begrudge an ex-taoiseach a state funeral, why don't you start being a little more vocal on the corruption that is under your nose every day in the country in 2006, rather than castigate someone who is now dead and who last participated in politics in 1992??? "
I do what I can , Darragh , where I can . But that does not include apologising for , or supporting , politicians who 'feed' a corrupt system . My conscience is clear in that regard .

Sharon .

by people power not leinster house Thu Jun 15, 2006 02:53

There once was a taoiseach called haughey
who loved fine wines and french coffee
while we gave up the sweet
just to make ends meet
he was stuffing his face with banoffi

The entire system is corrupt a cairde, need a new one
a new way, a new ireland. Eire Nua

http://www.rsf.ie/eirenua.htm

by Joe Soap Thu Jun 15, 2006 08:03

Charlie Haughey will be remembered for his achievements and for his failings. Of course he had his weaknesses unlike some of our so called Socialists whoo are perfect.
He was the brains behind the creation of the Irish Bloodstock industry which created thousands of jobs for ordinary people. Of course he made money out of it SO WHAT. A rising tide lifts all boats. He stood up to Thatcher during the Falklands War. As Minister of Finance he broughht in benefits which the Labour Party and its cronies condemed as election stunts i.e. free travel for pensioners, free electricity, free phones etc.

He did not support a mass murderer.Michael O Riordan did.
He did not support the invasion of Chechoslovakia like Stalin. Michael O Riordan did.
He did not support the invasion of Hungary. Michael O Riordan did.
He did not close his eyes to the fact that the Soviet Union was running concentration camps. Michael O Riordan did.

Long after people have forgotten the politically correct, arrogant, make believe socialists like Pat Rabbitie, Joe Higgins etc they will remember Charlie Haughey

by MG Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:06

Darragh more posts from you and more nonsense. You don't even understand the meaning of the word association. All your posts have been irrelevant nonsense mixed in with the most innacurate tripe imaginable. I haven't posted about the education system, but your posts shows how bad the education system is in this country if you have gone through it and emerged with the intellect you have displayed. Haughey was not elected Taoiseach by the people he was elected taoiseach by TD's. Try assimilating that bit of basic info Darragh. There are two choices regarding you, the first one is that you are incredibly stupid, the second one is you are a right wing troll. I think a mixture of both is contained in your innaccurate, idiotic, and completely bizzare posts. Go off and associate yourself with a book.

by Josephine Soap Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:25

I think you will find that Joe Higgins (and most people on this website) would have serious criticisms of stalinism, and always had. Why are you trying to tar him with that brush? Pat Rabbitte may well be a 'make believe socialist' and uncritical of Stalinism but most people on Indymedia do not support him. Let's look at Haughey's record on Stalinism. I can't remember CJH criticising the Soviet bureaucrats. I'm sure he signed books of condolance for the Soviet leaders when they they croked it. I'm sure CJH welcomed Stalinist ambassadors to Dublin. At least Michael O'Riordan, for all his political faults, fought for what he believed. O'Riordan did put his life on the line for the working class and small farmers of Spain. CJH never stood for anything other than corruption and hypocracy. Hope it rains on his state funeral tomorrow.

by chris murray - the unmanageables Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:33

all the contributions.....

I ascertain a few things: one everyone is still talking about the man.
Indymedia resisted (easily) the temptation to featurise.
The venting is done, can we bury it?

The 'State' funeral is something we should ignore,as we did the military parade
.
Give donations to deserving charities .

Ceremonial pomp has nothing to do with the reality of our lives,
carrying an embalmed corpse thru' the streets of dublin in regal display
is as cynical an exercise as the administration /regime has offered us.

Charlies favorite restaurant was LE COQ HARDI.

enough said: Draw a line.
(Bloomsday; The story of a man wandering the streets of Dublin thru' which a funeral winds, impotent and giving his wife whom he can longer shag the peace to get it on with the citizen is what tomorrow is about.... and affection. )

by Haughey Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:34

Many sides to the charismatic ‘Boss’

Editor: Colin O’Carroll

14/06/2006

As preparations continue ahead of the state funeral on Friday of three-time former Taoiseach Charles Haughey, now is not the time to trawl around in the murky pool of controversy in which his career became submerged in the latter years of his life. Neither, though, is it a time for blandly pious obsequies of the kind that we have heard and read in recent hours. The man was too complicated, too important in the forging of modern Ireland, for us to allow either to happen.
Charles J Haughey was a hugely charismatic and driven man, a political and personal behemoth who bestrode Leinster House for decades and under whose sometimes benign and sometimes malign patronage careers were made and broken. That he inspired great loyalty and affection is now a cliché perhaps – but it’s cliché that was borne out in spades by the many tributes paid to him on his death. It would be crass and twee to suppose that the conciliatory words that came yesterday and last night from a few of the men and women who earned his wrath and paid the price represents some kind of national coming-to-terms with the wrongs wrought on the social and political fabric of the country by Mr Haughey.
There are many people out there whose careers were broken and whose souls were wounded by Mr Haughey – for the most part they have opted to remain silent.

http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_scope=Da...opp=1

by John - dunaree2000 Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:52

MG says: "Haughey was not elected Taoiseach by the people - he was elected Taoiseach by TD's." But, who elected the TD's? The people, of course! MG seems to think that the process that resulted in Haughey being elected Taoiseach was the result of some shady manoeuvrings by Haughey to make himself leader without obtaining the consent of the people. Actually, the name for it is parliamentary democracy. It doesn't seem like MG has ever heard of it. Its common throughout the world and is to be found in the U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Nordic countries, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Spain, Portugal etc etc. None of the leaders of these countries are elected by the people - they are elected leaders by the MP's who are elected by the people. The basic principle is that the electorate elect the parliamentarians and then the parliamentarians elect the leader. When voting for the parliamentarians the electorate are fully aware who each will vote for as as leader so its entirely democratic. One of the few democracies that doesn't employ this system is the United States where the leader is more or less elected directly by the people (not quite true, I know, as they use the electoral college system) . Look at the result.

by MG Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:28

Thank you John as you can see the people did not elect CJH taoiseach and all your deluded fantasies can't help you prove otherwise. We do not elect our leaders we elect parliamentary reps. CJH the Corrupt Fella is dead, never was he elected leader by the people, and deluded fantastical people such as John Dunaree can pull their heads out of their asses if they think people will believe their crap that the people elect the Taoiseachs in this country, only a halfwit would believe the people elect taoiseachs.

by Darragh Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:59

MG,

And who do you think elects the TD's??? Your ignorance of the democratic process worries me, you shouldn't be posting up here if you can't get your head around the very fundamentals of the democracy, i.e. that we vote in TD's and those TD's ultimately form a government headed by a Taoiseach.

My comments here relate to someone who is dead being afforded the opportunity to be put into their grave before being spat and pissed upon on this forum. This is part of the human condition, we respect our dead. This is why I posted here, because I believe human beings, being human being and not animals, should respect the dead and if the deceased left behind a mixed legacy as is clearly the case here, then the analysis comes after the man is in his grave.

The only defence I put forward of Charles Haughey here is that the whole political process is a process of corruption, it involves taking sides and kick backs to ultimately end up in an office that is higher in status than the offices held by your peers. You have to be corrupt to be involved in the process to begin with. It takes a certain kind of individual who can be corrupt to get involved in politics to begin with. So, the man was like many others who creamed off his office, this doesn't detract from the REALITY that the man was DEMOCRATICALLY elected to lead this country. On this basis, and none other, he can receive a state funeral.

If CJ was unduly or illegally elected into his office, I'd say don't gve the man a state funeral. Whatever his involvement in other unsavory activities, he was duly and properly elected Taoiseach, (I'll have to explain for you again that he was elected by a majority of TD's who supported him that we in turn elected, as you don't seem to have your head around this part of the democratic process yet), and protocol provides the man be given a state funeral. What part of this simple equation are you having difficulty with???

You are attacking the very heart of democracy itself in your argument. You are saying that the man was elected taoiseach, but since then, because we have come to understand that he was taking corrupt payments, that we should effectively revisit the history books, de-elect him of his office and refuse him a state funeral! You would have been very useful back in ancient Egypt when a new Pharoh would get his scribes to go back among the hierogliphs carved in stone in the temples and remove all the written accounts about his previous incumbent! Gladly we are living in 2006AD and not 1500BC.

I don't want to continue this debate with you because your reasoning lacks the depth of argument I expect to encounter on this forum. You cannot ground your argument in subjective reasoning so you try to forward your argument by attacking me personally, only showing your own ignorance in the process.

by Reader Thu Jun 15, 2006 13:53

" It is customary not to speak ill of the dead. In the case of Charles Haughey there is no need. The unvarnished truth is sufficient to tarnish his reputation forever."

by MG Thu Jun 15, 2006 14:05

Your comments here amounted to idiocy and innacuracy. All your posts were infactual and completely off the chart. Your views of what indymedia is and what it represents, what association means, your "let he who has not sinned" nonsense and also the continuing nonsense of the people electing CJH as taoiseach. I am shocked to hear you say that you wont be continuing to debate as I would like to know when you began debating. Debating requires a bit of intelligence and a consistency in approach, something that you have completely failed to show.
As for not speaking ill of the dead, this is also more nonsense as we constantly speak ill of the dead be they innocent Iraqi or Afghani civilians murdered by the assistance of the Irish government and also homeless people who die who we refer to as druggies and scum. Spare me your nonsense Darragh with your idiotic positioning of a love in with the Haughey family. Take a look at the new issue of the Phoenix and you will see how the Haughey family benefited from the corruption. And now my tax money is being spent on this crook who never paid the tax that he owed. Haughey should have been jailed, instead we are wasting millions on this corrupt fella's funeral.

by Darragh Thu Jun 15, 2006 14:28

MG, you come on here and accuse me of inaccuracy and you can't even spell the word properly. I rest my case!

by Noel Thu Jun 15, 2006 14:40

Charles Haughey was a giant among men.
Undoubtedly corrupt and initially self-serving, however, his policies brought Ireland
from a Third World backwater to a thriving modern state.
For that alone he should be praised and applauded.

As for the begrudgery, sniping and generally distasteful tone of this thread - insignificant midgets throwing pebbles at a colossus.

RIP Charles Haughey. You did this state great service.

by yurkidding Thu Jun 15, 2006 14:45

Charles Haughey, the former Taoiseach of the Irish Republic who died yesterday aged 80, was touched by, but survived, a series of scandals of almost Florentine dimensions; they included telephone-tapping of his political opponents, alleged complicity in IRA gun-running, and the discovery of a fugitive murderer at the home of his Attorney General.

Then, after he had retired from politics, it was revealed that his regal lifestyle had been funded by a secret multi-million-pound offshore slush fund.

Haughey operated the politics of cronyism in an atmosphere of corruption and bullying; yet his acceptance of enormous bribes was never investigated by the tax authorities, since he was as much feared by the civil service as by his political enemies.

But his assiduous cultivation of potentially useful figures occasionally backfired. Colonel Gadaffi, who had been approached as a potential buyer of Irish beef, later publicly described Haughey as "a close friend", and urged support for "the IRA struggle for liberation" in Northern Ireland; and Haughey's public acceptance of a "token" gift of jewellery from Saudi Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz turned to scandal when a valuation of £250,000 was leaked.

Haughey's wealth, which included a Palladian mansion and 300-acre estate near Dublin, a string of race horses, an island retreat off the south coast, and a 50-ft motor yacht, gave rise to much speculation; but it was not explained until after he retired, when records of his Cayman Islands fortune were uncovered by a tribunal investigating secret payments to another politician.

His holiday home on the island of Inishvickillane was built in 1974 at a cost of £250,000, with materials entirely transported by helicopter.

Electricity came from a £160,000 "experimental" wind-powered station - installed free by the state power company but without the knowledge of the Minister for Energy.

Haughey's self-invented princely status prompted him to introduce a herd of red deer to the island, but an attempt to breed sea eagles failed.

Journalists were invited there, on condition that their photographs included Haughey with his wildlife, but excluded the house and contents.

At his home at Kinsealy, a marble fountain bore the Haughey coat of arms (which he designed himself). In the cellars Chateau Lafite-Rothschild 1953 and Chateau Margaux 1957 awaited his guests, who were encouraged by the majestic surroundings to believe Haughey's audacious but spurious claim to direct descent from the ancient high kings of Ireland.

The house, originally built for the Rt Hon John Beresford, Taster of the Wines in the Port of Dublin, was bought by Haughey in 1969 when his salary was around £5,000 a year, and was thought to have been paid for by property deals involving controversial land re-zoning.

Haughey avoided paying any income tax or surtax on his gains, having himself introduced measures in the 1968 Finance Act which exempted him.

Although he played the squire convincingly, Haughey's outdoor lifestyle owed more to showmanship than sporting expertise.

After his first yacht struck a rock and sank, Irish naval vessels were ordered to be on hand whenever he set sail; and his passion for powerful cars led to two serious accidents when he relieved his police driver at the wheel.

His political success, which began when he married the Prime Minister's daughter, was partly due to his careful identification of small but influential groups to whom he made political promises.

Charles John Haughey was born at Castlebar, Co Mayo, on September 16 1925. His father, Johnny Haughey, was a native of Londonderry and in 1922 had been involved in the smuggling of 400 British rifles to the IRA in Co Donegal, establishing a republican pedigree which his son would consolidate.

Haughey senior switched his allegiance from the IRA to the Free State Army founded by Michael Collins. He held the rank of captain and was stationed in Mayo when Charles was born, moving later to an unfashionable north Dublin suburb.

Charlie was educated by the Christian Brothers in a tough working-class school. A scholarship funded his education, and he qualified as an accountant, studied law and was called to the Bar.

He entered politics as a county councillor in 1953 and was an unsuccessful Fianna Fail Dail candidate in 1954, failing again in a by-election in 1956, before winning a seat in Dublin North East in 1957.

In May 1960 he was offered a junior ministry by his father-in-law, Taoiseach Sean Lemass. As Haughey related the story later, Lemass had said: "As Taoiseach it is my duty to offer you the job, and as your father-in-law I am advising you not to take it."

He disregarded the advice, and a year later became Minister for Justice, cranking up a personal legislative engine which generated a steady stream of imaginative new bills.

These included the Criminal Justice Act (abolishing the death penalty); the now infamous Extradition Act (which has had the effect of virtually preventing extradition for IRA offences); and the Succession Act (guaranteeing widows a minimum of half their husband's estate, or one third if there were children).

Moving to Agriculture in 1966, Haughey delighted smallholders by introducing the so-called "farmers' dole", a device to pay unemployment benefit without deductions in respect of earnings from the land. The cost of this and other measures were added to public sector borrowing, which was now growing astronomically.

Haughey's career stumbled when Lemass retired in 1966. A rival successor, George Colley, squared up to Haughey, and Jack Lynch emerged as a compromise candidate. Haughey, with characteristic adroitness, backed Lynch in a campaign which sank Colley by 51 votes to 19.

He was rewarded with the powerful Finance Ministry, and another welter of handouts followed. Pensioners were granted exemption from TV licences and telephone rental charges, and given free electricity and public transport passes.

In 1969 writers, artists, composers and sculptors were exempted from income tax on proceeds of their creative work, a move which brought many high-earning foreigners to Ireland.

Inventors enjoyed tax-free patent royalties; and timber growers and thoroughbred horse breeders, exempted from VAT and income tax, grew rich.

Although Haughey was lionised for his flair by some, distrust and active dislike sprang up elsewhere, and he was regarded coolly by his civil servants.

In the arts world, Haughey was hailed as a sophisticate, and elected to the Royal Hibernian Academy of Arts in 1973.

He exercised an iron grip on the arts establishment through political control of the "Aosdana", an Irish version of the Academie Française, which he had set up in 1982 and which dished out state commissions and a tax-free annuity to artists.

To the man in the saloon bar, Haughey was either a national saviour or a crook, and in 1970 fresh ammunition was supplied to both viewpoints.

Haughey, in hospital suffering from injuries received when he fell from a horse, was sacked by Lynch for "failing to subscribe to government policy on Northern Ireland". Later Lynch told the House that Haughey and another minister were suspected of gun-running, and of using £100,000 of public money to buy the arms.

Haughey had feared that he might be left behind by the Northern Ireland bandwagon, on which his fellow minister Neil Blaney was riding high. Haughey, however, had miscalculated.

He was unaware that Lynch's hand had been forced by the leader of the opposition, who had been told of the alleged arms deal by security sources in touch with MI5, and who had threatened to reveal all in the House if Lynch failed to act.

Three weeks later, on May 28, Haughey was arrested and charged with conspiracy to import arms for the IRA; but he was acquitted by a jury the following October.

Haughey immediately called for Lynch's resignation, but again miscalculated. Lynch demanded and won a vote of confidence. Haughey, ever the pragmatist, voted for him.

Haughey faced a painful five-year struggle before he could muster enough support to get another frontbench post, as shadow health minister.

Much of his support came from provincial party organisations, which he enthusiastically supported by speaking at dinners on what he called "the rubber chicken circuit". One of his sons was said to have scratched the slogan "We owe it all to Castlemahon" (the best-known brand of frozen chicken) on an antique gilt mirror at Kinsealy.

After the runaway Fianna Fail general election success of 1977, Lynch appointed Haughey to the relatively impotent portfolio of health; but he nevertheless created a high profile with a public health education campaign, even temporarily abandoning smoking and drinking in pursuit of his new image.

An official who had painstakingly prepared a detailed national medical report had his files thrown to the floor as Haughey yelled: "We want slogans, not statistics. This government won the election with slogans."

Haughey's unquenchable thirst for power and his political energy made this a position as well placed, tactically, as any. He solved the government's peculiar contraception dilemma with what he cynically described as "an Irish solution to an Irish problem".

The Supreme Court had legalised contraception, but the Roman Catholic Church had demanded regulations governing sales of prophylactics.

Haughey restricted sales to married couples, and only on prescription, which both salved religious consciences and delighted the Irish medical profession with a new and lucrative franchise.

When Lynch retired in 1979, Haughey found himself facing George Colley in the opposite corner, just as he had done 13 years earlier. He won the succession with the help of a motley collection of backbench rural deputies, many with a great deal in common with the Haughey school of clientism, and who shared Haughey's supposed extreme nationalist sympathies.

After victory by 44 votes to 38, these people had to be looked after, and one commentator described the resultant Haughey Cabinet as "an overdressed collection of bookies' runners". Later some of the appointees would leave in curious circumstances.

The Attorney General, Patrick Connolly, for example, resigned when police surrounded his home and arrested his house guest and long-time friend, Malcolm Macarthur, who was wanted for bludgeoning a nurse to death with a hammer and for shooting a farmer.

Haughey, at a press conference called to defuse the sensation, characterised the events of the evening as "grotesque, unprecedented, bizarre, and unbelievable". His arch-critic Conor Cruise O'Brien contracted this explanation to the acronym "GUBU", using it to characterise what he saw as the more grotesque activities of the Haughey government.

One of Haughey's first acts as party leader was to acquire the records of party donations from businessmen - the "black book" which, traditionally, the leader had not been shown.

When the party treasurer made his next annual approach to these benefactors, he was surprised to be told that they had already been importuned and had obliged Haughey's bagman with the cash.

The auditor of party branch finances in Haughey's constituency was then expelled when he qualified the accounts after being refused access to Haughey's election expenses.

Among Haughey's associates was Patrick Gallagher, a property developer and merchant banker whose company, Merchant Banking Ltd, made unsecured loans to Haughey to buy his island retreat. The bank crashed in 1982, and Gallagher was jailed in Northern Ireland for fraud, but was never prosecuted in the Republic.

Surprisingly, Haughey's personal finances were often in a parlous state. His overdraft at Allied Irish Banks in January 1980 was more than £1 million.

In the same month he made a dramatic plea to the nation, broadcast by state television, urging the necessity of fiscal restraint: "As a community we are living beyond our means," he complained. "We are borrowing enormous amounts of money… we have got to cut government spending."

When the Dublin Evening Press published details of Haughey's £1 million overdraft, AIB hotly denied the report, describing it as "outlandishly inaccurate". That was true, but only because the bank had already voluntarily written off much of the Haughey debt.

Haughey's friends, who were often as passionate in their support as his detractors were bitter, sometimes complained that the same rigorous standards of criticism were not applied to Dr Garret FitzGerald. Anthony Cronin, Haughey's "special adviser on the arts" who chaired the Aosdana academy, said that this was "because Charlie Haughey is more clearly a son of the people than FitzGerald. He speaks to them in their own tones; shares their sports and pastimes; and imaginatively relives their ancient history in a way that they did themselves until very recently."

In 1984 FitzGerald accused Haughey of "continuing and deepening the misery of the people of Northern Ireland" by exploiting progress in negotiations with Britain for short-term political gain. "That's a lie," Haughey retorted.

He left the House rather than withdraw the remark, and was followed by all the Fianna Fail deputies present. Haughey bitterly attacked the Hillsborough Agreement on Northern Ireland when it was signed by FitzGerald in 1985, but administered it happily when he regained power in 1987, despite reservations about what he called "its constitutional aspects".

Irish-American relations were equally divisive. Ireland's envoy to Washington, Sean Donlon, appointed by Lynch in 1978, pursued an anti-IRA line by attacking organisations which raised funds which might be used for violence.

This was so effective that Jane Ewart Biggs, widow of Christopher Ewart Biggs, the British Ambassador to Dublin murdered by the IRA in 1976, said that "the British Embassy would have lost its case by default had it not been for the Irish Embassy".

Visiting the United States in 1986, Haughey wooed IRA supporters: "Because we believe in a united Ireland, we were compelled to oppose the Anglo-Irish agreement. That agreement purported to recognise British sovereignty in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland," he said, using the established code shared by the constitutional republicans and the IRA. FitzGerald accused Haughey of "national sabotage".

Haughey, while conscious that misinformed Irish-American sentiment might lean dangerously close to the IRA line, felt it was nevertheless necessary to keep Irish-Americans sweet because of their influence on investment and on the American political establishment.

He tried, on his return to government in 1987, to have Donlon removed, but lost his nerve when prominent Americans, including the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Tip O'Neill, backed Donlon.

In 1982 Martin O'Donoghue, now Education Minister but an enemy of Haughey, tried to get his cabinet colleagues to dump Haughey, saying that people supported Haughey only because they had been "compromised financially", and suggesting that money could be found to "uncompromise" them.

One of his confidants was Deputy Prime Minister Ray MacSharry, whose response was to ask the Justice Minister Sean Doherty to bug his office to record the O'Donoghue "offer".

After this and other phone tapping episodes were revealed by the new government in 1983, both the Commissioner of the Garda and his deputy, who had supplied the bugging equipment, resigned. Doherty and MacSharry resigned from the Fianna Fail front bench immediately.

Haughey always denied any knowledge of the affair, but Doherty later revealed that Haughey had been party to the phone-tapping plot.

In the bitter division which followed, Haughey survived a vote of no confidence among his parliamentary colleagues by 40 votes to 33. He had demonstrated that he was prepared to split the entire party rather than resign.

In the 1990s it emerged that Haughey had approached several businessmen for money, and that the supermarket magnate Ben Dunne had handed him £1.3 million in negotiable bank drafts. As Dunne related the story later to a tribunal of inquiry investigating political corruption, he had given Haughey an envelope containing the bank drafts, remarking: "Here's something for yourself." Haughey had responded affably: "Thanks, big fellow."

A more distasteful transaction was also revealed. Haughey had diverted a £20,000 charity fund, raised in 1988 to pay for a liver transplant operation for his deputy prime minister Brian Lenihan, to his own account.

Between 1988 and 1996, while his only visible income never exceeded his £62,000 per annum pre-tax salary as Taoiseach, Haughey spent £3 million on day-to-day expenses. In 1991 he paid more than £16,000 for his bespoke silk shirts and dressing gowns at Charvet of Paris, where staff addressed him as "your excellency".

Nonetheless, when he was narrowly returned to power again in 1989, in a coalition with the Progressive Democrats (themselves the rump of the old Fianna Fail party before the divisions of 1982), Haughey's profile was one of fiscal rectitude in place of spendthrift profligacy.

The economy was helped by international business trends as well as by a return of the old Irish safety-valve on unemployment - emigration, this time to Australia. Business leaders favoured the new Haughey approach, since his vote-catching expenditures were now tempered by the more monetarist views of his PD supporters.

His back-room style had not altered, however, and there were more rumblings about his power-broking role. His youngest son, Sean, then aged 26, who had failed to gain a seat in a by-election, was imposed on the Senate. Subsequently he became Dublin's youngest-ever Lord Mayor, beating senior contenders on a vote.

Charlie Haughey's close friends always testified to his charm, generosity and affability, as well as to his accurate judgment. Those outside that firmly drawn circle saw only a diminutive figure (he was just 5 ft 5 in tall, and wore Cuban-heeled shoes to add height) with a hooded expression and a conspiratorial manner, coupled with a quite remarkable degree of self-control under pressure.

He could be rude without ever being self-revelatory, and seemed incapable of being surprised - perhaps because he did his homework so well. It was said that every name on the voters' register in his constituency was logged on a computer, with comments after each.

His aides sat in restaurants and in the foyers of Dublin hotels observing those who came and went, and insinuating themselves into conversations. No tittle-tattle was so insignificant that Charlie did not have to hear it.

In 1992, after losing a vote of confidence over the phone-tapping revelations, Haughey retired from politics. On his last day as Taoiseach he chose as his exit line Othello's "I have done the state some service and they know it".

His shadow continued to fall across the political stage, and his malign influence, real or imagined, was still spoken of. Conor Cruise O'Brien dubbed him "the undead Taoiseach", and in 1997 the Haughey spectre rose again when a public inquiry uncovered the vast sums paid to him by businessmen.

He had spent more than £300,000 a year on his living expenses, it emerged, and the money for this had come from a bank account in the Cayman Islands administered by his accountant.

"My work was my life," Haughey protested to the tribunal. "There was no room for any sort of extravagant lifestyle."

When Haughey was prosecuted in the Dublin Circuit Court in June 2000 for obstructing the McCracken Tribunal of Inquiry by hiding evidence of his offshore bank accounts, the judge decided that it would be impossible for him to receive a fair trial in view of statements by the Deputy Prime Minister, Mary Harney, who had called for jail penalties for corrupt politicians.

The trial was adjourned indefinitely. A £2 million retrospective income tax assessment was settled by Haughey for half that amount.

LOL..A FITTING TRIBUTE

by MG Thu Jun 15, 2006 17:46

Posting while in work leads to rushed spelling mistakes, which is nothing that a little time wouldn't solve. Whats your excuse for your idioctic points and utter stupidity which you've displayed here?
Are you a child?

by Darragh Thu Jun 15, 2006 20:19

Being stupid, ignorant and uneducated as you clearly are, would be a better explanation.

by MG Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:29

How childish Darragh. I am far better educated than you, far better informed than you, and unlike you I dont make ridiculous points which are completely untrue. You have a breathtaking capacity to show yourself up to be a complete moron and yet you keep on posting, thereby drawing more attention onto your idiocy.

by Darragh Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:36

Ridiculous statements??? You've just made another ridiculous statement one when you claim you are more educated than I am but you have not a clue who I am or how educated I am. How did you reach that conclusion??? Hardly by subjectively looking at the facts as understood and reasoning your argument from there, same way you have presented all your opinions to date on this thread, just pumping rage and bile against someone with a different opinion, because none of your arguments can stand up on their own two feet. Maybe you should stop putting your hand out to be slapped. Anyway, this is the last post I'll be making here, I'll be the bigger person and leave you to rage against the next person who disagrees with you. Cya.

by MG Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:13

Darragh your points were, and are, absolutely ridiculous and don't stand up to any scrutiny. It is not an issue about attacking somebody with a different opinion it is an issue of attacking somebody with ridiculous opinions who makes idiotic statements. Not one of your statements stood up to any scrutiny. I'm glad to hear you wont be commenting anymore as I wont miss your contributions on this thread. Next time you comment try and introduce a bit of intelligent thought to your posts.

by Lord Charlatan Haughty of Kinsealy Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:17

Why don't you stop your infantile bickering and reslove your dispute in a manner worthy of gentlemen ?

Never heard of pistols at dawn ?

by Pistols at the ready Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:20

Good suggestion. Perhaps the pistol fight could take place at Haughey's funeral during the graveside oration by Bertie. Although if Darragh's aim is as crooked as his arguments it would be unfair combat. Perhaps a sentence in the gulags would be better

by Darragh Fri Jun 16, 2006 13:05

What does not stand up to scrutiny??? What point, what opinion??? Are you saying CJ was not properly elected Taoiseach as provided for by the constitution??? Either he was or he wasn't, which do you believe??? I know I said I wouldn't post again but your responses just criticising me personally while not actually bothering to comment critically on what I have said is extremely frustrating. WHAT DOES NOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY??? PLEASE FOCUS ON WHAT I HAVE SAID AND NOT ME PERSONALLY, THAT THE MAN WAS APPOINTED TO THE OFFICE OF TAOISEACH PROPER TO THE PROVISIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION AND HE GETS A STATE FUNERAL AS PROVIDED FOR BY STATUTE, SO ON WHAT BASIS ARE YOU ENTITLED TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT??? THOSE ARE THE FACTS, IF YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THEM. IF YOU DISPUTE THE FACTS ABOVE, PLEASE TELL ME EXACTLY WHERE I AM WRONG?????????????????????

by MG Fri Jun 16, 2006 13:58

Not one of your points adds up Darragh. You said the people elected Haughey which is untrue and now you introduce the constitution into your statements showing no consistency in your approach. Also you stated you wont be commenting again and yet do proceed to comment again. You've no consistency, no valid points and absolutely no decent or valid argument.

by Unfair Fri Jun 16, 2006 14:07

I think your being unfair to Darragh as he has shown consistency. He has shown consistency in stupidity. He has also shown consistency in spouting nonsense. He has shown consistency in obviously not reading anything and has shown consistecy in constantly embarassing himself. Very consistent man indeed.

by ralph waldo emerson Fri Jun 16, 2006 14:28

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesman and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do."

by Darragh Fri Jun 16, 2006 15:02

GP, answer the question I put to you. What part of what I just said is not correct??? GP, when I said the people " elected" CJ Haghey, I did not mean that everyone on the country who was registered to vote, temporarily changed their constituency to where we was putting himself up for election, so that they could actually vote for him and then go back to their own constituencies. What I meant was that "the people", by voting for the TD's who were in the political party that led, VOTED FOR HIM, his party, his policies and HIS ability to run the country. Those TD's being in a majority, meant he was Taoiseach in the subsequent government. It is sad that I have to spell this out for you as I'm sure I could go down to the local primary school and pick out a 7 year old who would understand this.

I tell you the people voted for him, you refuse to recognise the people's exclusive role in his election and his appointment to office, I tell you the constitution provided for his election, you sneer at my reference to the constitution. I wouldn't lower myself to the pathethic slagging that you have lowered yourself to. It's funny how people are "apparently" running to your defence on this thread but the lauguage and terminlogy they are using is extremely similar to your own! I wonder now how that could be happening!?!?!

by krossie - wsm personal capacity Fri Jun 16, 2006 15:40

Small men with "delusions of grandeur" who paper their back sides by stealing our money should be accorded a "proper " burial best suited to their "mediocre spirits"

http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/italy/captioned/aut...y.htm

“There are truths which are recognized best by mediocre minds because they are most suited to them, there are truths which possess charm and seductive powers only for mediocre spirits”

Nietzsche Beyond Good and Evil 253

by MG Fri Jun 16, 2006 15:47

Darragh there is only one MG posting and that is me, or is it that you now have an inability to count.

!"GP, answer the question I put to you. What part of what I just said is not correct???"

First of all who is GP? now your inbility to read slides further down the tubes
Secondly NOT ONE of your points is valid, how many times do things need to be repeated before they enter that thick skull of yours?

Your idicoy continues with your Haughey elected by the people crap. Under our system all TD's could be independents, now we can both agree that this is completely unlikely, however it could happen. Now if this happened a vote would take place for taoiseach in the same manner it does now. Would you think that the people decided who was taoiseach then? How about when a party shafts their leader and puts a new taoiseach in place during a government term, and you blindly say the people decide. It is an utterly ridiculous and completely untrue point that doesn't add up to any scrutiny. Your addition of the costitution into the deabte shows your lack of consistency as you foolishly try to turn this into a constitutional debate when quite clearly it is not. I wasn't sneering at the constituion, another completely untrue and idiotic point from you. He was never voted taoiseach by the people and it is you who falsely claims that he was. As for your little rant at the end, unfortunately for you most people can clearly see that you are making an ass of yourself, they are not running to my defense as I wouldn't need anybody to defend myself from somebody who makes such utterly stupid points as you do.

How many more times am I going to have to repeat myself before you stop posting rubbish?. When are you going to follow up your claim of not posting again? When are you going to associate yourself with a bit of education or even one decent argument?

by Darragh Fri Jun 16, 2006 16:08

What are you on about??? I'm not interested in what COULD have happened and all the speculatve and hypothetical bullshit that you have introduced, I'm interested in what DID happen, THE FACTS. There is no point in discussing it with you, you are not capable of understanding the simple FACTS.

by Darragh Fri Jun 16, 2006 16:10

Christ you are incredibly stupid my dear.

by MG Fri Jun 16, 2006 16:19

Your "facts" are completely untrue. NOT ONE OF YOUR POINTS was valid, and now all we get is you calling me dear. How charming, I should get very angry but it is very hard to get angry with such an imbecile, its not your fault that you are as stupid as you are. How about you post one link, just one link to prove that the people voted for CJH as taoiseach. Or just one link where the people ever voted for a taoiseach. Over 100 comments on this thread and not one intelligent comment from you, what an imbecile

by Starstruck - GD Fri Jun 16, 2006 17:05

Watching a segment of CJ's funeral this morning made it all themore clear to me how willing people are to learn nothing from the mistakes of letting corrupt,power-hungry individuals "lead" us.
It seems once the reprehensible individual passes on,the grace of god steps in,wipes all the indiscretions of the past from people's memories and leaves us all in a state of reverance,forgiveness and uttering such apologetic phrases such as "he was a colourful character" and "he was one of a kind".
These phrases were coming from the mouths of working class people,the very people who Haughey stole from and lied to throughout his political career.Rose-tinted glasses seem to have a powerful effect on the recollections of many of these people,and isnt that just great for the current batch of colourful and callous clowns.
Charlie Haughey epitimises everything inherently morally wrong about a hierarchical capitalist society.Concentration of power in one individual surrounded by white yes-men is intrinsically risky and can do nothing but encourage people of Haughey's mentality from navigating towards that position and upon arrival doing everything they can to capitalise on it.
To hear those working people speak so warmly of a man that was so far removed from them and whose politics,actions and inactions did so little to improve their lot,made me feel quite ill,and does little to reinforce the belief that some day people will wake up from the trance of blind leader-following and realise that the only way to achieve everything they should is to dispose of these bureaucrats and take control of theior own lives.
CJH was a liar,a cheat ,a political crook of the highest order and I am not one bit sorry that he is dead.
I just hope that one day,blind reverance for leadership,especially of the unelected kind,will expire and we won't have to payfor and watch on state television,the funeral service of cronies who robbed us all.

Some leaders deserve loathing,not respect,even when dead.

by Darragh Fri Jun 16, 2006 17:15

No point in talking any further on his, the issue is not whether people voted directly for him or indirectly, only an absolute asshole would try to split hairs on this such an irrelevant point, he was legally elected elected Taoiseach , FULL STOP. He was elected because the people voted for his party in overwhelming numbers. In all the 15 odd years I've posted comments and read replies, in all the shite I've ever read on the internet, I've never once read such a piece of opinion so utterly pointless or useless as yours on this thread. You must be another one of the "leftie loonies" that come here from time to time, nothing to offer but spite and bile, no contribution to make, your opinion is so beneath comptempt that I do not actually accept that these are your views are genuine. I have to start looking at the possibility that you might actually be a Special Branch cop sitting in the headquarters up in the Phoenix Park, just trawling through the comments here looking for any sign of a protest and bored out of your wits so you just decided to wind me up for the laugh. If this is case, you can say so because I can laugh at getting wound up. I'd love to see you on questions and answers, since we haven't fallen off our chairs laughing since Dermot Morgan passed away, check out the following link and PLEASE get yourself two tickets:

http://www.rte.ie/news/qanda.html

I'm genuinely expecting Jeremy Beadle to walk through the door here with the microphone in his hand!

The point you make about a Taoiseach changing mid-term is irrelavant nonsense and is not relevant to the debate at hand. It is nonsense because a government is empowered to change its leader for a variety or reasons (or also for no particular reason), save in circumstances where a vote of no confidence has been passed against him or her. In any event, this did not happen with CJ Haughey, it did happen with his sucessor Albert Reynolds in 1992 which has no bearing on the discussion here.

You asking me to post a link up here saying that the people voted for CJ, (albeit indirectly by voting for FF TD'S), is like asking me to post up a link to a page that says 1+1=2, it's so fucking obvious and well understood that everyone already knows it and accepts it. I bet you that your problem is that you actually DID vote for a FF TD that got Charlie into power back in the 1980's and this is why you are hopping mad about it!!! Are you in denial my dear!?!?!

by krossie - wsm personal capacity Fri Jun 16, 2006 17:52

Good post star struck - Talkin' in work and peerin' between the cracks there is massive hatred in the land which is being ignored by the meeja and the loyal politicians of "the opposition"
Mind you a large stone has just been lifted up - the scuttling things underneath - x "friends" of de big fella should be wriggling up and out to spill their guts to the tabloids soon

- lets sit back and enjoy

by iosaf Fri Jun 16, 2006 18:34

(once more)... His truth keeps marching on...
glory glory! hallelujah!!!! (you get the refrain) twice more....

Haughey is mouldering in the grave.

As an expert on these things, I advise : you we need a drop of rain, drizzle would do... & then night will fall, the wingèd creatures of the queen of the night will come & ask the questions of eternity, & the soul will have fully parted the mortal shell on its way to either the big light in the sky or the burning fires of satirical hellfire :-

Meanwhile, let not one of us, (meaning you lot in Eire who are unused to state funerals) think this is the "passing of an era". Its not - too many of them were happy to take part. That much noted, we have recently just passed the endgame of the coalition government, today's funeral is the last time that FF may willingly or unwillingly rally behind a flag & sing their version of the "battle hymn of the republic". Haughey planned it all meticulously, it is rumoured (though not seriously enough to merit the status unproven allegation) that members of the Kinsealy dynasty pressured wikipedia to ensure no entry exists or will ever exist for Donnycarney, no key maps were available on the internet to facilitate a shock attack by terrorists armed with measles.
Yet it was "the heart" of the boss's constituency. The one true point of Ireland's heart that he could find voters from his root's generation to keen & wail. But they've all died by now, long past the stage thier families thought a free bus pass was radical. They're all dead because that is sadly how the dual factors of life expectancy and the health provisions of the State worked. What did he leave behind?
Its difficult to sum it up in just one "on topic" comment.
He was the last of the young rogues or clever sons of De Valera's Ireland. The torch passed from the founder of Eire to Lemass through marriage to CJ. His legacy could really only have been succeeded into our times by the teflon yoke Bertie Ahern & constant media massaging with documentaries and biographies. In politics there are a limited variety of leaders, we seem to have moved past the "feared kind" and in Haughey's (& Thatcher's) time we began to move past the "boss kind". Both of those kinds always played on the notion of "mass popularity". s/he was in every sense of the word a popular wo/man and everyone who met him/her liked her/him.
In politics some deaths are convenient, some are planned, some are sudden & others are definetly sticky. We would have plausibly spent the last week discussing why Zarqwari / Zwarqeuark's death was convenient. Or revisiting why Ariel Sharon's passing into the realm of the un-dead was so horribly significant - Or wondering about Milosevic "timing". But now begins the parsing of the psychopathology of the last week, which in my mind was of less importance to the future of the State or the Nation than the events of 23/5 to 2/6. & no better place to start than with the verse of Othello, CJ Haughey wanted to be remember by - "service to the State".

At end, we can only salute the men & wimmin of our national state's forces, who have happily played part to yet another FF farce. Its not been long since they marked 1916, firing their guns over the coffin of the boss must have been another welcome day out of barracks in service of the State. Meanwhile many of the residents of Donnycarney who may enjoy freshly painted railings to thier church will see claimed on thier behalf 635€ "funeral allowance".

Oh but the fools! the fools! they have force fed us thier FF dead!!!!!!!!!!!

so & so is mouldering in the grave. Glory Glory! Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!

by dr. sickmind fraud Fri Jun 16, 2006 18:42

Your point being, mr ipsiphi ?
Or do you have one at all ?
Ah I see that would explain it then wouldn't it ...

by hmmmmmmm Fri Jun 16, 2006 19:28

Fr Haughey concelebrated the requiem mass for Mr Haughey so the De Valera's State and De Valera's special Church joined for the special occassion with the same aquiline features. Mock not the dead. Jayzhus I'm an anarchist - I don't like either State or Church, & when they come together - I get pointless........ I don't believe in this Fianna Fail north Dublin working class of Ireland heartland, I don't see merit of the Othello quotes & eulogy of "statehood". Will president Hillery get the same treatment? Will Garrett FitzGerald? Will Seamus Heaney? Isn't there an entrepeneurial money making option here somewhere, cups, plates, souvenir baseball caps? Was this mortal man of suich great personality and warmth and glowing tributes really so rare????? Was there not a single other man or woman who might have governed Ireland to the same if not better standards?????? Aren't the "regime" proud of how some of the disadvantage suffered by the majority of "working class Ireland of the FF hearlands" has been dealt with Haughey left? When did the rot begin?
Did he really form a team of others and lead a generation of politicians and mentor yet more who in truth did the best to their ability? RIP all the same. ¿do I still qualify for the 635€ funeral allowance?

by dr. sickmind fraud Fri Jun 16, 2006 19:32

You CoI dropout types have always had difficulty in understanding the mindset of THE PLAIN PEOPLE OF IRELAND.

THE PLAIN PEOPLE OF IRELAND ROSE AND FOLLOWED CHARLIE.

Now what does that tell us about the plain people of Ireland ...

That they are easily led ?

by dr. sickmind fraud Fri Jun 16, 2006 19:38

And as for the bereavement grant and whether or not you qualify.
You have to fill in form BG1.
https://www.welfare.ie/forms/bg1.pdf

For further information please consult information booklet SW 47:
https://www.welfare.ie/publications/sw47.pdf

I think you might have to be dead first.

by iosaf mac diarmada .:. ipsiphi Fri Jun 16, 2006 21:55

There's not a mention of Othello in Ulysses either,- oddly enough.
[aside]Of course most people don't know how to pronounce Othello these days.I'm considering a special "othello" edition of the Sunday Papers, because I believe youngsters especially often miss the great moral message of the works of Shakespeare.
There was precious little mention of persons of colour in either the works of James Joyce or William Shakespeare. This is often put down to the scarcity of migrant communities in those far off ages, which of course is utter crap. It really had more to do with political stereotyping than anything else.[aside] The battle hymn of the republic was first sung in the 1850's to a number of different lyrics many of which were "vulgar". The final version which begins "John Brown's body is a mouldering in the grave" has been taken by many to refer to John Brown the slavery abolitionist, but there are those in academia who argue it was actually a different John Brown of Scottish origin who served ( & died in the service of ) the Twelfth Massachusetts Regiment. {"The Battle Hymn was played at the funeral of Robert Kennedy, Winston Churchill, and U.S. President Ronald Reagan. [read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Rep...ublic ]}

All I am prepared to add to our vanguard attack now that the drizzle has passed and the evening grows long is this :-

the Republic of Ireland was never supposed or intended to be about dynasties.
the Battle Hymn of the Republic of Ireland included (like any ballad) verses & refrains of dubious authenticity & abounded with Shakesperian & Joycean morality.
the Republic of Ireland as proclaimed in either 1798 or 1916 was never planned to be the art of DeValera, the braininess of Lemass, the cunning of Haughey, the craftiness of Reynolds the smug endtime complacent mediocrity of Ahern.
The true sons & daughters of the nation in whose name a State was built never enjoyed in time pompous funerals - they got quicklime instead. Why did they fall short of declaring Haughey a fallen general and lead his horse before the hearse with boots facing the tail?
Today if you want to see it - you saw the end of Fianna Fail. not 125,000 at a 1916 commemoration, not even a nation of formerly working class people made good with a bit of prosperity in the bank.
No. Fianna Fail ended in Donnycarney with an ard fheis of 2000 people. a Mafia funeral to be proud of.

Reclaim the .:. Republic!

If you ever get a really impressive state funeral with really good guest list - it will be for Bono.


When I die you won't see me scabbing 635eu of the Eire state - my plot has been provided for in Catalunya. You're invited to dance.....but I'll outlive you mostly but teh good news is - we'll all outlive FF ;-)

Bloomsday offers the mediocre culture fetishist only one opportunity to sing a snippet of melody. This is the opening of "the battle hymn of the republic"

by eoin the duffer Fri Jun 16, 2006 22:06

Unless of course a neo-Falangist putsch comes along to soften your cough.

A week is a long time in politics.

by pall bearer Fri Jun 16, 2006 22:11

you're still invited to dance on the you know what.....

by eoin the duffer Fri Jun 16, 2006 22:30

And don't end up getting the Lorca treatment:
Yo le metí dos tiros en el culo por maricón.

by CG Sat Jun 17, 2006 13:47

The big screens outside the church weren't needed. The indifference of the vast majority of people says it all.

The quality of debate here is pretty bad here. Haughey was a reprehensible person who betrayed the people, I think we can take that much for granted. Will there be the same level of hysteria and abuse when it comes to the future state funerals of people who are just as corrupt and have torture and death to their account?

by orator Sat Jun 17, 2006 16:42

you live by the coal-face Bertie - you die of emphysema
you live in the sweatshop you will die of hard work
you live by the poetry shite beware the falange & cover your ass
you live on the silver screen the butox will git ya!!!
you live loved by the people the state will bury you.

I repeat.

the Fools, the Fools, the Fools
they force-fed us thier FF dead.

by historian Sat Jun 17, 2006 18:31

At the age of 17 I was patted upon my curly mop head by the then still living boss & told I was a little rascal for demanding that the organist fee charged by a funeral parlour owned by a FF TD be corrected, the widow having been billed for exactly double the fee I had asked for, & I having recieved not one penny of same.

CJ Haughey wanted us to reflect on his resignation speech of 11/2/92, http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0415/D.0415.199202110002.html in which he quoted the coal faced moor Othello. I have always sought to act solely and exclusively in the best interests of the Irish people. Let me quote Othello: I have done the state some service; they know't No more of that. it is my argument that " no more of that " meant no FF state funeral to which the people did not throng was not to be merited.

Mentioning that name was not as adventurous as deputy Howlin's first use of the word "Fellatio" in the Dail on the 2nd of June 2006 for "Othello" had been mentioned quite a bit before.

In fact between 1923 and 1924 the Irish Free State saw Othello mentioned three times.
Twice in one day in fact by the now forgotten Professor Magenis who waffled on about Dante on the 10th of May 1923 as part of the censorship of Films bill second stage "The whole idea of parental control, all that we associate with the sacredness not merely of matrimony, but of the associations leading up to it, are sapped by those things. There are all sorts of films of that kind that appear not to be reprehensible, but they are so. We may have a Censor who will allow that pernicious sort of stuff to pass unchallenged, and you may have a Censor who would not allow them to present Shakespeare's “Othello.” That is the difficulty. Now, just as we prefer a jury of twelve to a jury of three, or, above all, a jury of one, although any two of the twelve men may be pretty much alike both in their experience and their qualities of mind and heart, yet we prefer the large number. Experience has shown us that there is a corrective in the number." he continued..... "I claim that I am not puritanical. I am afraid I would make a bad Censor, because I would be too indulgent as regards the presentation of high art and the finer pieces of literature. It is just because I should be so lenient with regard to plays of the type of “Hamlet” or “Othello” that I would wish to put it out of the power of anyone, under the name of presenting art, deliberately to set himself to lower the moral currency in our country.

But by far the best mention of Othello in the Irish Free State was in one of the Treaty debates, that of 17th October 1924, it concerned supplemental arrangements for the transfer of bits and bobs, note that post boxes and telegraph poles & all sorts of "state furniture" were still be sorting out by the Free State as De Valera waited in the hills to install the FF state with a wee Sean Lemass, & CJ Haughey's daddy. The particular debate of 17/10/24 though touched on the "border comission".

relish these lines from Senator O'Farrell :- . In the past, professional politicians in the North utilised Home Rule and the Pope to keep alive the fires of religious bigotry and political animosity. In later days the Boundary question has furnished the necessary material. If we remove this question out of the region of controversy, the professional politician will find himself, like Othello, with his occupation gone. It was his object in the past to get the Presbyterian of the North to look upon his Catholic fellow-countrymen as the inveterate enemies of his mortal body as well as of his immortal soul.

by P. O'Neill Sun Jun 18, 2006 23:57

Look there is alot of Bullshit on here about this man!! From what I remember of the man is that he was a pragmatist!! he took what came his way and triesd to do his best when he could!! Im am a Sein Fein member and voter , iIcant say i agree with the man as FF are complete an utter waste of time!!! But as for the comment by a fella about not respecting rank that is total bullshit, if no one respected authority what is the point in govt. Think before you open your mouth you ejit!!!

by barry Mon Jun 19, 2006 01:18

there is no point in gov't, bar providing a mechanism by which a few can excercise control over many.

I know there are all kinds of honourable notions put about, but for the most part it's a career option for those who seek power but cannot 'earn' or afford it.

by MG Mon Jun 19, 2006 13:26

Darragh I am a bloke stop calling me dear. Its amazing that you have been posting for 15 years, you have the arguments and intellect of a child. I have never come across a poster on indymedia so lacking in intellect and reasoned argument as you. You stated the people elected CJH as taoiseach which was completely and utterly untrue and then you degenerate into calling me dear, how utterly devoid of intellect and sense you truely are. Please explain how you have been posting on the internet for 15 years, everybody would love to know how you managed that. That "15 years" would have been better spent in education rather than posting on an internet that just didn't exist. What a plonker you truely are. A looney leftie wow haven't heard that allegation being flung around indymedia before and yet you previously claimed you were a socialist, as for questions and answers how witty of you, perhaps you are the wittiest Irish man since Oscar Wilde, although with your intellect you are probably only reading books with pictures in them. Perhaps we should campaign for the reintroduction of blackboard jungle so that you can enter it. A child wiping the floor with you on a quiz show, while expected, would amuse the hell out of everyone else. Your arguments on this thread were pathetic with not one of them standing up to any scrutiny, your words are paramount to absolute lies, you are truely the Walter Mitty of indymedia.

by Hockey Mon Jun 19, 2006 22:17

Look at the newswire. No need then, to name the port tunnel after him.
We can all it Ozymandias , instead.
That's a work by a great poet called Shelley. Emily Bronte was in love with him, though
they never met.

by xonvinxed Tue Jun 20, 2006 02:24

we're no longer just dealing with the resurrection of the Boss as a news-story, we're seeing his real return. The spirit of celtic caudillo runs too strong in the veins of Eirinns or erse speakers in general.
It stretches from those who would betray their voters, take another team's colours & erect the first non-religious disneyland of Ireland in their local patch. (as well)..... to be served by a whopping big airport of various names... Or from those who ideas or visions of collective popular action or politics can not embrace the presence or contribution of others.
YES!
the Boss left a legacy, and rumours of Shakespearian omen-ominium-omenisity.They didn't poison the Boss, he wasn't Arafat, Milosevic, Reynolds, Napoleon, Kelly, Sharon, George V, Hamlet's dad.
They just let him get ignored & forgotten, he exited like Othello. A dusty shelf black & white telly history squeezed into coffee table biography specials. & then his brother the priest came into the flat screen wall to wall TV screen. Oh! said the nation - he looks like the Boss.

The Boss will not die until his seed be hunted down to the four corners of the earth and..........

its summer. heat stroke. sorry.

by desdamona Tue Jun 20, 2006 19:05

Today's irish independent carried thoughts from a woman (with no wikipedia entry as of yet ) who claims she was the mistress of the Boss.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=...14227

For those of you with little experience of such things ( meaning women), a mistress is like a paramour, a floozy, a fancywoman, a partygirl, a tootsie, a bit on the side, a hussey, a jeezebel, a profligate. She's sort of like a female equivalent to a toy boy [ if you get bought loads of drinks and jewellry, knick-knacks, bric-a-brac, holidays to Barcelona & fake tan by an older woman you're probably a toyboy ]. Of course to have a "mistress" you really have to be "married" first. If you divorce or seperate from your spouse you can marry your mistress, like Bertie Ahern could have done, but he didn't .
Of course CJ Haughey voted against the first constitutional amendments to allow for divorce tabled by the FG/Lab coalition in the 25th Dail coz he was a "goody two shoes".

The Irish Independent has not yet told us whether this new character Terry Keane on the stage attended the funeral, or if she received knick-knacks.


What this means.

C.J. Haughey committed a mortal sin which has left his soul without the state of grace neccesary and pursuant to the entry requirements of Roman Catholic Heaven.
as Othello said to maligned Desdamona :-
"Heaven doth truly know that thou art false as hell"

by Julius - Rant.org Wed Jun 21, 2006 15:33

Paddy Dignam died in Ulysses.

by pat c Wed Jun 21, 2006 16:04

"We can all it Ozymandias , instead.
That's a work by a great poet called Shelley. Emily Bronte was in love with him, though
they never met."

Bit difficult. She was 4 when he died and he spent those years abroad.

Anyway I think we should take precautions to ensure that Hocula does not rise again. A few volleys of siver bullets; a stake through the heart (if you can find it); decapitate him; stuff all of his bodily orifices with cloves of garlic. Then rebury him at a crossroads on the night of the full moon.

Maybe Arch Druid McGrath would lend a hand.

by theseus Wed Jun 21, 2006 19:51

Paddy would have died on the 13th of June 1904, leaving a widow and 5 children -several days before the great action, his funeral gets its first mention about 11am "bloomtime" as Mr Bloom is getting ready to attend it. I can't say if he was a real person not having a Joycean concordance close to hand.
Interestingly though Paddy's "brown shroud" is mentioned, this could mean several things - one he was a lay-member of a religious order (carmelite / franciscan?), because normally people are and were buried in white or as close to white cloth as could be had.

I have chosen as author name of this comment - "Theseus" another Shakespearian character, one of main of "a Midsummer's Night dream", for today's BOSS link is to the west of Ireland where the newspapers of Mayo are thanking Haughey for building the airport, http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=31533
the airtport which is a vital part of the largest non-religious themepark outside of Lourdes in Europe. The airport of course has undergone many name changes, as reported by the caudillo like councillor of Westport on these very pages - http://indymedia.ie/article/75611

act 4 scene 1 Midsummer's night dream.

The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, Are of imagination all compact: One sees more devils than vast hell can hold, That is, the madman; the lover, all as frantic, Sees Helen's beauty in a brow of Egypt: The poet's eye, in a fine frenzy rolling, Doth glance from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven; And, as imagination bodies forth The forms of things unknown, the poet's pen Turns them to shapes, and gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name. Such tricks hath strong imagination, That, if it would but apprehend some joy, It comprehends some bringer of that joy; Or in the night, imagining some fear, How easy is a bush supposed a bear!


Thus because the Dublin Tunnel will not after all be renamed the "Haughey Tunnel" I think it would be wonderful to rename " Ireland Westport Airport Knock" to "Charles J. Haughey Airport"
happy solstice

by uneducatedlout Wed Jun 21, 2006 23:38

And there was me thinking that it was called 'Horan International Airport' after the auld priest who virtually forced it into existence. Now don't get me wrong I'm not generally an admirer of the clergy, but credit where credit is due. Horan showed some initiative in the middle of a period in our recent history when the whole region was being deserted and all the young people were emigrating to America. It was a desperate attempt to create some kind of infrastructure which would help to bring in investment.
Waffle away about Joyce etc. if it amuses you. What would I know, I never went to Trinners.

by fnord Fri Jun 23, 2006 20:19

Interesting look at Vincent Browne ( the Irish Times conspiracy theorist of note & respected journalist who looks very good in a windsor half knot) on the death, resurrection, poisoning, lamentation & final temptations of the Boss
http://indymedia.ie/article/76809

& "the Airport" has been officially named 4 times:-
* Connaught Regional Airport
* Horan International Airport
* Knock International Airport
* Ireland West Airport Knock
but the website has only ever had one domain name since its creation on the 19th of December 2002 - "Knock airport" http://www.knockairport.com/ it was updated (with the new official name of the airport on the home page) 24/1/2006 and indeed the website will expire on 24th January 2007 if no-one pays the bills. So...
January next year would be a good time to rename the airport in memory of the BOSS.