Council of Europe moves to condemn crimes of totalitarian communist regimes

by C Ó Brolcháin Wed Jan 11, 2006 13:00

There's an online petition that can be signed at the given address...

by Mark O 'Hehir Wed Jan 11, 2006 13:19

I disagree with you entirely. It's about time official Europe started condeming communist regimes in a public way. Why this failed, brutal concept is still treated as valid in some quarters is beyond me. Obviously some people have no sense of history. In the memory of the countless millions murdered and brutalised by this 'system', I hope this campaign you support fails miserably - just like communism itself.

by lenin Wed Jan 11, 2006 13:48

Dear comrades,

We are writing to inform you of the latest attack of state power – the Home Office of the Czech Republic – against the Communist Union of Youth (Komunisticky svaz mladeze, KSM) - a member organization of the World Federation of Democratic Youth (WFDY) - and against the communist movement in general in the Czech Republic.
The Ministry of Interior has sent a warning and precept, in which it:
1. impugns the status of the KSM as a civic association under pretext that the goals of KSM´s activity interfere with an area restricted to activities of political parties that is, according to the interpretation of the Home Office of the Czech Republic, excluded from the intervention of civic associations. Nevertheless the KSM does not differ in this area from the field of action of other youth political organizations in the Czech Republic like Young Conservatives, Young Social Democrats, Young Christian Democrats, etc. Thus it is obvious that this attack against the KSM is politically motivated. It is an obvious attempt to restrain our freedom of association.
2. tries to coerce the KSM into renouncing its political program, communist identity, goals, and theoretical basis in Marx, Engels and Lenin, that is Marxism as a whole.
On this ground the Home Office of the Czech Republic threatens to make the KSM illegal by December 31, 2005. If that happened it would without any doubt set a precedent whereby the same argument could be used against other civic associations. But the Home Office of the Czech Republic also aims to attack the parliamentary Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia (Komunisticka strana Cecha a Moravy, KSCM).
This attack against the KSM is just the climax of a long-run anticommunist campaign that has increased in intensity this year. Among its manifestations was for example a petition titled “Let´s abolish the communists,” an endeavour of senators Mejstrik and Stetina to pass a law that would criminalize communist ideas, movement and the word “communist” as such. This bill simultaneously put communism and its ideas on one level with fascism and its crimes. (This text has been already passed in the Senate of the Parliament of the Czech Republic and now it shall be discussed in the House of Deputies of the Parliament of the Czech Republic.) Also a so-called humanitarian organization People in Need – Czech Republic has been involved in this anticommunist campaign. This organization has begun to organize a strongly anticommunist campaign within the public education system in elementary schools and secondary schools. In recent days the House of Deputies of the Parliament of the Czech Republic has also passed a new Penal Code according which it is a criminal act to approve of and/or deny Nazi and so-called communist crimes.
It is necessary to emphasize that the attack against the KSM is an attack against the whole communist movement in the Czech Republic, and therefore also against the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia, which the state power has not so far dared to attack directly; it does so indirectly by attacking the Communist Union of Youth. The closeness between the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia, which is today one of the strongest parliamentary political parties in the Czech Republic and one of the strongest communist parties in Europe, and the Communist Union of Youth has been shown also with the attendance of the president of the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia Vojtech Filip at the recent Seventh Congress of the KSM, when he expressed his wish that the ideas of the KSM find a rousing response throughout the young people and that “people who have passed through the ranks of the KSM provide new blood for the KSCM.”

Dear comrades, friends,
We believe that it is necessary to stand up internationally against this attempt to criminalize the communist movement in the Czech Republic. We ask you therefore to express your solidarity with the KSM and to send protests against this unprecedented move of the Home Office of the Czech Republic to the following address:

Ministerstvo vnitra
oddeleni volebni a sdruzovani,
namesti Hrdinu 3,
140 21 Praha 4
Czech Republic

Fax: ++420 974 816 872
e-mail: [email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


You may also send your protest to the missions of the Czech Republic abroad. Their addresses are on the following internet page:
http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/mzv/default.asp?ido=7904&idj=2&amb=1&ikony=False&trid=2&prsl=False&pocc1=


We ask you simultaneously to send copies of your protests on our e-mail: [email protected] or on fax: ++420 222 897 426.


Thank you for your solidarity.

Milan Krajca, President of the KSM
Radim Gonda, Vice-President of the KSM
Zdenek Stefek, General Secretary of the KSM
Ludvik Sulda, Vice-President of the KSM
Veronika Sykorova, Vice-President of the KSM

by pat c Wed Jan 11, 2006 13:58

libertarians should take no joy in this attack on leninist parties. these motions and laws will be used against all groups which have a revolutionary programme.

just see the czech example above. the same rules could be used against any trot group and dont think they'll leave anarchists alone.

in the mccarthy era in the US it wasnt just stalinists who suffered. trots and anarchists were also scapegoated.

by Mark O 'Hehir Wed Jan 11, 2006 14:38

"In recent days the House of Deputies of the Parliament of the Czech Republic has also passed a new Penal Code according which it is a criminal act to approve of and/or deny Nazi and so-called communist crimes."

This works for me ... why should communist crimes be omitted?

by pat c Wed Jan 11, 2006 14:46

if it just means making it a crime to deny the millions of deaths which took place under stalinism then fine. but it looks as if its being used against left groups. its likely that any group which has a revolutionary programme or opposes capitalism will be targeted.

by historian Wed Jan 11, 2006 14:57

Apologists for totalitarian socialism (and these do include Trotskyists who defend the terror in the Soviet Union between 1917 and 1925) ought to be given no more leeway than apologists for the Nazi Holocaust.

by pat c Wed Jan 11, 2006 15:00

i have often clashed with trots here on this very subject. but have a sense of proportion, millions died under stalin including trots.

by bad trip Wed Jan 11, 2006 15:00

-

never again.

by historian Wed Jan 11, 2006 15:05

At least a million died under Trotsky and Lenin. Not to mention the complete suppression of democracy and individual freedom. Marxism-Leninism and Nazism are two sides of the one coin.

by CCCP Wed Jan 11, 2006 15:47

Equating Marxism/Communism as a philosophy with the race hate of fascism and nazism is the latest cause celebre of neo-liberal shut everywhere. This equation implies that left politics is equal to right and that the only acceptable middle ground is the parasitic capitalism propogated by almost all so-called democratic parties in Europe.

Who was it banned the Communist party of Germany in 1933 again?

Responsible for death of millions 1945 - present day

by pat c Wed Jan 11, 2006 15:55

"At least a million died under Trotsky and Lenin."

not sure about that, i'd have to do some research into it. are you including people killed during the civil war? it should be remembered that the first large scale holocaust of jews was carried out by the whites during the civil war. i have seen estimates as high as 400,000.

"Not to mention the complete suppression of democracy and individual freedom. "

agreed. trade unions were banned, all opposition parties banned, even internal opposition in the CP was banned.

"Marxism-Leninism and Nazism are two sides of the one coin."

dont agree there, the leninist model of party organisation is a problem but you cant blame marx for events which took place 35 years after his death.

i dont think the sp, swp or even the cp are setting out to set up a dictatorship which crushs workers rights (the WP , given their links with North Korea probably do want such a dictatorship). it would be wrong to refuse to work with trots because of their defense of the period when trotsky was in power, fascism & capitalism are the enemies.

by historian Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:03

Who was it handed over German CP members to the Gestapo? Who murdered more German Communists than the Gestapo? Joe Stalin.

Pat C - I use the term Marxism-Leninism to describe the totalitarian version of Marxism that was spawned by Lenin and whose fundamental tenets - democratic centralism, one party state, suppression of dissent - is still shared by its adherents who include the trotskyists.

by Truth Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:10

Historian you are a liar! There was no terror in the USSR under Lenin and Trotsky. Deaths that occurred during this period were due to the invasion of the USSR by 21 imperialist nations whose intention was to defeat the Soviet government and reinstate capitalism, the counter-revolution by the Whites (the capitalists and Tzarists), and famine and depravation caused by centuries of Tzarist mis-rule and the counter-revolution.
The Council of Europe are attempting to vilify the ideas and parties that are currently fighting for socialism, because more and more people are supporting socialism and opposing capitalism. They don't give a damn about the people who were slaughtered by Stalinism, whilst most of the world was silent it was the Trotskyists who stood up and condemned Stalinism and sacrificed their lives fighting against it. If the Council of Europe are so concerned about human rights then they should debate a motion about the slaughter of innocent Iraqis and Afghans.

by eugene zamiatin Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:17

but as a libertarian socialist I have to remind you all, in the name of Zamiatin and Emma Goldman that deaths there were.

By intention or neglect.

by Dr Truth Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:17

Genocide against communists a book yet to be written.

There isn't any comparison between the Nazis and the Marxist Leninist communists. No where in the world was there a genocide against Nazis. Yet from 1900 to 2000 hundreds of thousands of communists have been murdered, tortured and imprisoned in


Nazi Germany
Nazi Occupied countries
Stalins USSR
Hungary 1956
Malaya post 1945
Greece post 1945
Burma
Iraq
Iran
Egypt
Syria
Indonesia
India
USA
Vietnam
Korea

I could go on and on.

People should check this out

Genocide against the Jewish people is rightly known by most literate people but the suffering of communists has been airbrushed from history.

by pat c Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:18

not sure if the above is satire or by a genuine raving trot.

just in case its for real, i'll just remind truth that trotsky supported the banning of all opposition tendencies in the party. now that came back to haunt him. also trotsky banned all opposition parties both left and right not to mention anarchists.

trotsky was happy to fight alongside makhno against the whites but swiftly turned on the anarchists once the whites were beaten.

unions were made into arms of the state, strikes were banned trotsky called for the militarisation of labour.

shall we mention kronstadt? top marks to the trot who points out that the head of artillery under the anarchists was an ex-tsarist officer! but how did he get their? did the brits parachute him in? no! he had been appointed by trotsky to kronstadt!

by potential future copyreader - (when i come down) Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:21

not genocide. We place the mass murder of socialists, communists, and members of masonic lodges and selected republicans in the category of "murdered for belief".
As distinct to the mass murder of jews, slavs and gypsies under "genocide" where their race or ethnicity led to their murder and also distinct to the mass murder of disabled, criminals and others under "sociocide" where either their phsyical or psychological profile led to their murder.

by Palto Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:42

Communists under both Trotsky and Lenin Masacared Million upon millions.
Pogroms of Burgeois, the Industrial plans.
Even in China now they have death vans.
Is so hillarious all you fools following these "thought up" Ideologies.
trotsky was a new york jew who was financed and smuggled from america by the elite.
Wall street financed the whole soviet union experiment. Why? Because its hegelian dialectic control both sides capitalism/marxism and create the society you want.
Jacob Schiff the New York Banker donated 20 million to the Bolshkeviks , why? So as to destroy the Czsar as he would not bow down to the dictats of International Finance.
Most WP SWP and CP official heads even to this day are working for MI5 or CIA.
Why? Keep your enemies close.

by zamiatin Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:51

The ignorance is appaling. Yes the Soviet system killed countless. Not up for debate.
But that the Soviet system was financed by Wall Street as some sort of Hegalian and of course "jewish influenced" "wait and see" or punishment for the Czar, wow! which website did you surf in from???

well, stick this little factiod in your memory.
The first bonded loan granted the Soviet Union was collateral guaranteed via the Irish Free State. Maybe the Irish Free State was a Wall Street jewish conspiracy as well...

"Ok here's what we'll do, we'll set up these new states, bankrupt ourselves, quite a few us will jump off the windows, yes you Sir, (sorry) and then we'll abandon gold standard, fight another world war, adopt Dumbarton Oaks, suspend the US central bank, properly set up the Federal Reserve, invent the EEC, bring the Irish Free state into it, make it the EU, end the Soviet Union, give all the Irish middle classes two houses and a Latvian village each, and then WE WILL CONTROL THE WORLD! [sinister laughter] any questions?"

by historian Wed Jan 11, 2006 16:52

Not lies at all my friend. The labour camps and mass executions, mainly of leftist opponents of the regime, had begun long before Uncle Joe came to power. Indeed Trotsky was the leading advocate of 'Red Terror', not just against the whites (who ironically included many reds and blacks - as in anarchists) but against the CP opposition and all other left wing parties including those who accepted Soviet power. So grow up and stop going on about the "21 imperialist armies". Slogans are no substitute for historical facts.

As for Trotskyists giving their lives to oppose Stalin. Give me a break. Trotskyism was never a mass force in the USSR (or anywhere else) so there were not even the numbers to be killed even if they had existed. Read any history of the gulag and you will find very few references to real trots. Lots of people who were there having being accused of being but not many real ones.

by Plato Wed Jan 11, 2006 17:07

There is a lot of ignorance. I have not any clue what you are talking of.
I merely stated trotsky was a new york jew as in he was not Russian, and could barely speak Russian.
Look up your facts read a real historian like Nesta Webster or Elizabeth Dillin or the thousands of documented evidence in the British Mueseum etc. that Communism was indeed financed from Wall Street.
Even up until the 1990's it was being supplied on a lend lease basis.

by Joffe Wed Jan 11, 2006 17:12

Historian, there's no point attacking "truth" for dodging historical facts if you're gonna do the same. The Trotskyists did play a brave role in opposition to Stalin, they were the only effective opposition group at the time, and they were slaughtered. The last group of Trotskyists went on hunger strike in one of the Arctic camps and they were all shot in 1937 if I remember correctly.

The best known account of the Gulag is "The Gulag Archipelago", it's hardly surprising if its author didn't mention Trots because he was an extreme right-winger who hated all forms of socialism

by Socrates Wed Jan 11, 2006 17:14

Plato, bog off back to Nazi land and rave about the ZOG with your chums. Trotsky was a Ukrainian Jew and was generally considered to be one of the best writers in the Russian language of the 20th century. Take your lunatic ravings somewhere they might get a hearing

by historian Wed Jan 11, 2006 17:24

I have read most accounts of the gulag and trotskyists are a mere footnote - even in the accounts written by themselves!

I am not claiming that trotskyists were not killed. They were, however, a tiny number How many were of those in the Kolyma and Vorkuta hunger strikes in 1936 were Trotskyists for example?.

Most accounts say that there were around 3 - 400 involved and they included politcals of every type; trots, other CP dissidents, mensheviks, anarchists and rightists.

Anyway, all of that is beside the point. Trotsky and Lenin were responsible for the creation of the system that allowed the barbarities of 1917 - 53 to take place.

by Truth Thu Jan 12, 2006 01:14

Don't know what your sources are for your information on the numbers of Trotskyists murdered by Stalin - maybe your source is Stalinists historians! Approximately 100,000 Trotskyists were murdered by Stalin's regime in the USSR, and then you add on top of that the Trotskyists murdered by the Stalinists in China, Vietnam etc etc. And in reply to you and Pat C there was no repression in the USSR under Lenin and Trotsky's leadership. At the time of the counter-revolution and civil war enemies of the USSR were dealt with but this was 100% justified, it is what you do during war, kill your enemy or be killed. And Kronstadt was a counter-revolutionary uprising that was smashed by the heroic Red Army. Pat you really should remove those liberal anarchist spectacles through which you view Soviet history.
I have read comments like Plato's before on fascist websites, claims that a jewish conspiracy financed the USSR and a world communist movement etc etc. These type of fascist/revisionist remarks shouldn't be allowed on this site.

by historian Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:32

I am tempted to supply you with a reading list but I doubt that you would read anything that comes without the imprimatur of whatever sect you adhere to. Where did you get 100,000 Trotskyists killed by Stalin from? I doubt there were that many actual active supporters of Trotsky in the CP. Anyway, even if true, it would still only represent a small percentage of the victims of Stalinism.

As for your claim that there was no repression under Saint Leon, again you ought to read some real history. The suppression of the elected assemblies when the Bolsheviks were defeated by other Marxists, the banning of the press, the mass imprisonment of left wing opponents, the banning and repressinon of CP oppositionists, and so on. No different qualitatively from what Stalin did after 1925 using exactly the same mechanisms that had been there under Lenin and Trotsky.

Regarding your attempt to label me. I know that ultra-leftists find that a comfort and a handy prelude to expelling, torturing, murdering, locking up their opponents. I am also amused by your claim that I am both influenced by Stalinism and a "liberal anarchist". Sound familiar? Trotskyite/fascist/Japanese terrorist centre anyone.

I can assure you that I am none of those. I abhor totalitarianism of every stripe and at least have the comfort of realising that totalitarians such as yourself will never be in a position in this country to inflict your malign murderous doctrine on us. So getting back to the original point of this thread, I fully support the notion that totalitarian marxism should be subject to the same censure and treated as a pariah in the same way as totalitarian fascism.

by the man from unkle jo Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:52

The confusion about stalin might be the fact that anyone opposed to the regime was labelled a trot. However, most were critical communists, people pissed off with the system, or just lazy workers who neglected their work and were accused of trot sabotage.

by Plato Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:55

Is your username some sort of lie? ANyone who reads history know wallstreet funded marxism. Did I ever claim it was a jewish conspiracy No? There were Wasps as well involved Harriman etc.
I feel sorry for the likes of you you are so indoctrinated in your false marxist doctirine that you actually cannot think for yourself, just regurgitate the "party line".
Lenin was a butcher, they went into every village in russia and ordered the "army" to butcher a few cossacks just to scare them a bit. Even in the red army the "officers" stayed behind to shoot soldiers that had no interest in fighting for the Red Terror.
More Russians died because of Russian Pogroms and Industrial plans than died in all countries of world war two. Get your facts straight. Marxism should be banned as a crime against humanity.

You in fact are the one propogating Faccist/Murderous doctirine.

by Joffe Thu Jan 12, 2006 14:24

Plato, come clean - you are a fascist. You claimed that Trotsky was a "New York Jew" who was funded by Wall Street. Why on earth Wall Street would want to fund a communist revolution is a mystery that only nazis like yourself can comprehend. This is a fairy tale version of history that only exists on the far right

by Pythagoras Thu Jan 12, 2006 15:25

Sticks and stones.. you prove my point you resort to slander when you are in a level of debate your narrow mind cannot understand outside the manifesto.
Thanks very much also I am home and proud.
Unlike you I love my country.

by Harpal Brar - Indian Workers Association Thu Jan 12, 2006 15:32 lalkarpublications at hotmail dot com

Robert Griffiths' 'defence' of communism - confessions of a Khrushchevite revisionist
Please don't post cut and pastes of material that is publically available online elsewhere. Write an introductory summary and provide the link. Thanks. - 1 of IMC Ed

by Mario Sousa Thu Jan 12, 2006 15:35

We've heard the McCarthyite wild accusations about Stalin and the USSR over and over, like a broken record, for decades. The USSR's secret archives prove these accusations are false.
Huge cut and paste snipped. Please don't paste material if there is a publically accessible link. Write a summary and supply the link. Thanks - 1 of IMC ed

by historian Thu Jan 12, 2006 16:11

The above sort of stuff is akin to Holocaust denial. For decades Stalinists - like the fascists - denied that anything terrible had happened in the first place. Then came the more subtle deniers. The Irivings et al who say "Well, yes, there were Jews and others killed but logistically they could never have killed 6 million". And so on. The Stalinist deniers are exactly the same. "Oh there weren't 700,00 executions, more like 600,000, but sure they were all spies anyway", or that every one who died during collectivisation was the victim of an heroic class struggle against the Kulaks!

And of course like the fascists the political objective is the same. If people forget about the barbarities of the past, sure maybe they'll be stupid enough to let us do it to them again. Let us not forget Vorkuta and the Lubyanka any more than we should forget Belsen and Auschwitz.

by o ruairc Thu Jan 12, 2006 16:17

One main arguments made against Socialism is that it leads to the Gulag. For many, Gulag is synonymous with the crimes committed in Nazi concentration camps. The popular view is that under Stalin, dozens of millions died. It has even been argued by some that Socialism is worse than Nazism because it has been responsible for far more many deaths. The work of scholars like Robert Conquest, Robert Service and Richard Pipes (or more recently Dmitrii Volkogonov) represents that conventional view. One of the problems with their work is that most of it was published before the death of the Soviet Union, and these historians had not full access to the Soviet archives. One has also to bear in mind that this was cold war historiography.
large cut and paste removed. -1 of IMC ed

by pat c Thu Jan 12, 2006 19:19

"And in reply to you and Pat C there was no repression in the USSR under Lenin and Trotsky's leadership. At the time of the counter-revolution and civil war enemies of the USSR were dealt with but this was 100% justified, it is what you do during war, kill your enemy or be killed."

So where does democracy come into it? how can the workers express their will if only one party is allowed? unions were made into arms pof the state and strikes were banned under trotsky and lenin. this is historical fact.
was the killing of the tsars children justified?


"And Kronstadt was a counter-revolutionary uprising that was smashed by the heroic Red Army."

heroic? the prisoners were shot in batchs of 100 after they surrendered. the civil war was alreadfy over. is this your idea of revolutionary justice? is this the better society?


"Pat you really should remove those liberal anarchist spectacles through which you view Soviet history. "

i am no liberal and everything i have stated is fact.

although i disagree with some of his points historian is not a fascist or a revisionist from what ican see in his writings here.

stalins airbrush does not apply to indymedia and i am confident that his comments wont be deleted .

by Madalina Papahagi Fri Jan 27, 2006 16:32

Are you really saying that the suffering of millions of people should not be acknowledged but forgotten in the name of the same utopian ideology (turned criminal)that produced those victims in the first place??!!!

Nobody asked for a "witch hunt" but for truth, recognition, awareness of history, as preconditions for avoiding similar crimes in the future.