Police removal of Irish Flags – “Racist” say Antrim community workers

by Anti sectarian Fri Aug 12, 2005 20:12

Catch a grip the Irish tricolour is a sectarian symbol and it is not a good thing that they are flown.

by Sinn Fein non fellow traveller Fri Aug 12, 2005 22:10

The previous poster is ignorant of the history of the flag. The Irish Tricolor ( like all tricolors) is a republican flag. It symbols the central principle of the founders of Irish Republic peace and unity between all Irish traditions. White the color of peace between Orange and Green.

The key symbolgy of the Loyalist cause is King Williams victory at the boyne, which was a necessary prelude to the humiliation of the Irish resisters, the Penal Laws and the Protestent Supremcy of the following 200 years.

One set of flags celebrates the humiliation and defeat of one side.

The other represents unity and peace between both sides.

Which one is the most sectarian???

Is aspiring to unity "sectarian" ?

by avan63 - None Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:03 The United Kindom of GB and Northern Ireland

With regard to the obscured comments on flags in relation to the The United Kingdom of GB and Northern Ireland. At best, the comments can only be corrected by saying that they reflect political opinion or misguided folklore. The facts relating to the flag of the UK of GB & NI refers specifically to UK parliamentary history and specifically the "Act of UNION" enacted in the year 1701. Ireland as a Nation became part of the Union of Kingdoms forming the United Kingdom as a Nation. Simply put the Union of Nations is reflected by the overlaying of three national flags on top of each other i.e. (Scotland) the flag of St Andrew, which is Blue background with a white diagonal cross. (England) the flag of St George, a white background and a red horizontal cross. (Ireland) the flag of St Patrick, a white background and a red diagonal cross. Overlaid theses three flags form the Union Flag also referred to as the Union Jack when flown a sea vessel.

Fact 'not opinion’.

by C Ó Brolcháin Sat Aug 13, 2005 19:18

So where is the Welsh reference on the Butcher's Apron?

And I think many people would agree that you can keep your St Patrick's Cross.

by Barry Sat Aug 13, 2005 19:46

Ireland became a part of the UK against its will . This was acheived only by military force and maintained by such coercion to this day .The head of the UK is a British monarch , a post which still today can only be held by a protestant . The Union Jack is therefore both triumphalist AND sectarian ( not to mention the inference that the Welsh nation has no right to even exist even in a conquered form).

The ideals expressed by the tricolour ( Irish unity , equality and brotherhood amongst religions ) as opposed to the (spit !) Union ( spit !) Jack - conqured nations under an exclusively protestant throne - are totally at odds . The union jack (spit!!) is a dirty sectarian rag and widely recognised and despised as such to this day , thank god .

by . Sat Aug 13, 2005 19:52

Johnny Rotten was certainly a Republican as much as he was an 'anarchist'. No wonder they spat at him and kicked the shit out of him in the streets of london around the time of the jubilee.

by Karen Sun Aug 14, 2005 17:04

Why would the Police remove the Irish tricolour only in Antrim. There are hundreds of LVF, UVF and UDA flags as well as the Union Jack flying all over Antrim.

The Police swooped in a military style fashion and operation to remove 2 tricolours only. The hundreds of other other flags were left flying high in Antrim Town.

What is this all about?? Who decides to employ the Police in this manner and who directs them to act accordingly and most important of all- WHY? These are the real issues to anyone interested in equality and human rights.


Why is this happening against one side in Antrim Town (Nationalists only).

by SF watcher Mon Aug 15, 2005 22:45

history of the flag isn't important. what is important is what it means now. You could use the same argument in favour of the swastika for gods sake!! So are you proposing that Jews should tolerate swastikas being erected in their areas?

by Barry Mon Aug 15, 2005 23:03

2 tricolours erected in the overwhelmingly nationalist Rathenraw estate , nothing to do with jews or swastikas . It would be virtually physically impossible not to mention life threatening for tricolours to be displayed in a loyalist part of Antrim . Nor would it be necessary for the PSNI/RUC to remove them as the locals would do it themselves .

The swastika reference is much more applicable to the loyalist paramilitary flags which are all over Antrim and left alone by the crown forces, not to mention the town centres orange arch and union jacks which catholics must endure when they have to venture into the town centre .

by rooster Tue Aug 16, 2005 01:31

Learn the facts
by Sinn Fein non fellow traveller Friday, Aug 12 2005, 9:10pm
The previous poster is ignorant of the history of the flag. The Irish Tricolor ( like all tricolors) is a republican flag. It symbols the central principle of the founders of Irish Republic peace and unity between all Irish traditions. White the color of peace between Orange and Green.

-if the principle of the flag is that the white of peace should prevail between Orange loyalists and Green republicans then how can the average republican object to the presence of the above named Loyalism????

by rooster Tue Aug 16, 2005 02:33

rubbish argument
by Barry Monday, Aug 15 2005, 10:03pm
The swastika reference is much more applicable to the loyalist paramilitary flags which are all over Antrim and left alone by the crown forces, not to mention the town centres orange arch and union jacks which catholics must endure when they have to venture into the town centre .

-you just can't beat the politics of whatabboutery can you? My flag is better than yours?

by Barry Tue Aug 16, 2005 04:31

the facts are - literally 100s of UVF , UDA , LVF flags as well as 100s of union jacks and six county crown/ulster flags on virtually every lamppost in Antrim town ( not to mention a huge orange arch everyone entering the town centre has to walk under) and the PSNI launch an operation to remove 2 tricolours from a nationalist estate .

Please explain why , never mind the waste of taxpayers money on this pointless exercise .

by C Ó Brolcháin Tue Aug 16, 2005 21:33

"-if the principle of the flag is that the white of peace should prevail between Orange loyalists and Green republicans then how can the average republican object to the presence of the above named Loyalism????"

The orange doesn't represent Loyalism, it represents the Protestant tradition in Ireland. They are two completely different things, as I'm sure most would recognise.

by rooster Wed Aug 17, 2005 00:09

and like the majority of protestants I support the orange order!

by Barry Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:06

Are decent , law abiding, charitable and polite people , who are nice to their neighbours . The majority of protestants in the UK have little or no time for a nasty and bigoted institution like the Orange Order . Throughout Ireland a great many protestants view the Orange Order as backward , nasty and embarassing .

Rooster suffers from the traditional " wee 6 counties are at the centre of the universe " complex , very much prevalent within the Orange psyche . Theres a big sophisticated world out there where in fact most protestants DONT support the Orange Order , its bigotry and insular paranoia or want anything to do with it .

The tricolour stands for such a world , were religious background is not an impediment to brotherhood and friendship .

by By Any Means Necessary Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:39

Without doubt the PSNI inact their interpretation of what flags should fly and which should not in a partisan way...Antrim town is not unique in this.

I do not believe that the national flag of Ireland should be flown from lamp-posts in a "marking territory" way, republicans are not going to fall into mimicing loyalist s and basically it is in my opinion disrepectful to those volunteers who sacrificed their lives for a non-sectarian irish republic, to let the national flag be used in a sectarian manner.

However the unionist paramilitaries are given the freedom to in act out their culture of bigotory unchallenged.

The taking down of the national flag in an environment where british flag, the sectarian ulster flag and flags denoting support for the orange order, uvf, uff or uda are left is racist.

Banning all flags and emblems is not the solution.

Give equal status to the national flag.

by rooster Wed Aug 17, 2005 16:26

Rooster suffers from the traditional " wee 6 counties are at the centre of the universe " complex , very much prevalent within the Orange psyche . Theres a big sophisticated world out there where in fact most protestants DONT support the Orange Order , its bigotry and insular paranoia or want anything to do with it .

-I've travelled all over the World, mostly in uniform, in fact most of my time in the last ten years has been spent overseas. At the end of the day Barry, the Orange Order is still the largest protestant organisation in Ireland, north or south.


The tricolour stands for such a world , were religious background is not an impediment to brotherhood and friendship.

-strange that when they looked for a colour that represented protestants they chose the clour orange, why do you think that was Barry? Could they not have designed a flag like Oz or NZ? where the union flag is in the corner? perhaps a redesign would correct this?

by Barry Wed Aug 17, 2005 16:46

of a nation striving for independence from Britain bother their arse to have a union jack on it ??

The union jack is the emblem of the country which deliberately fostered sectarian hatred here in the first place . The tricolour is a symbol of true republicanisms rejection of it . The tricolour is a republican flag , presented firstly to Irish republicans by French republican allies . As a republican flag it stands for the rejection of monarchies as well . The green and orange stands for the people of this island ( ie . in a republic) no longer subjects of some foreign , inbred half senile monarch with servants to wipe its royal bumhole . Neither Australia or New Zealand are republics , thats why they both have union jacks on their flags .

Anyway I assumed that the largest protestant organisation on this island was the Church of Ireland . The Orange Order is simply the largest organisation of bigots on this island , while the PSNI and RIR come second and third .

As was pointed out to you earlier , the Orange on the flag refers to King William of Orange as a reference to Irelands protestant minority . It does not refer at all to ( nor does it pander to) the Orange Order or the organised bigotry known as " Orangism" .

Orangism preaches division and supremacy between those of differing religions , the tricolour stands for the exact opposite .

by Noel Wed Aug 17, 2005 17:15

'Neither Australia or New Zealand are republics , thats why they both have union jacks on their flags'

So tell me Barry, if a flag has a Union Jack on it - does that mean the country cannot be a republic?

by Ho Ho Wed Aug 17, 2005 17:23

A "republic" that is headed by a monarch of another country half way around the planet.

by rooster Wed Aug 17, 2005 19:55

the republics flag has become over-politicised and so a new flag must be agreed upon, why can five million people not design their own flag and have to rely on the garlic gobblers for a flag?

by Jay Acra - Counts of the Netherworld Wed Aug 17, 2005 22:12 internationalrebelion at hotmail dot com

What are you people on about at this stage.....
You just kind of drifted into an abstract....... hold on. Flags are abstract!

What importance does the Irish flag hold in your life?
Does it lobby for human rights? Does it join the Union picket?

When you look at your dinner tonight...... please, note what parts of it are there because of your cute little flag.

You mustn't have much opinion about yourself if your concerned about the colour of a piece of cloth. Shouldn't you be happy to even have a cloth to represent you in this day and age where 1984 doesn't seem all that crazy any more.

You'd never understand your country untill you've left it. Me, being a Canadian citizen now understands that there are differences between these two countries. Economic conditions!
Think about it, if you haven't been outside this land what could it possibly mean to you? When everyone you know lives under it the idea of nationalizing your flag kinda goes out the window......

Just planting seeds. Hope they take root in some form!

by Barry Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:22

your presumption that myself , or even Rooster for that matter , has never been out of Ireland is a touch condescending . In fact you sound like Bill fecking Clinton , lecturing Irish people on how this and that aint really important guys .

My national flag is important to me for largely personal reasons . Both friends and family had it draped on their coffins which was a point of pride and respect . I remember pitched battles here with the RUC trying to snatch it from coffins . Im not a fan of those who display it from lamposts because I have more respect for it .

I dont hold Irelands tricolour in awe or anything like that but it represents an ideal which is worth struggling for . Thats why I personally hold it in esteem . And thats why the RUC today are still so intent on removing it from places like Antrim .

by rooster Thu Aug 18, 2005 22:45

I dont hold Irelands tricolour in awe or anything like that but it represents an ideal which is worth struggling for . Thats why I personally hold it in esteem . And thats why the RUC today are still so intent on removing it from places like Antrim .

by wolfe tone Fri Aug 19, 2005 00:55 Antrim Town

Why do "Nationalists/National Socialists" want to ape Orangemen by flying flags, having marches, being triumphalist? Is it some sort of psychological jealousy? Poor me, only for an accident of birth I could have been an Orangeman, and right now I could be demanding to walk down Garvaghy Road.

If Paddy Murray, calling him a "community worker" means the death of satire, and his few followers want to be so Irish, let them move to Glasgow and they can watch Celtic every week.

by Jay Acra - Counts of the Netherworld Fri Aug 19, 2005 03:05

Ok, Barry..... So because your fallen comrades were burried with this flag it means that the mistake must continue?
And judging by what you claim to have experianced your a Northern/True Republican. I only have second hand information handed down by my mother about the North, it is a very troubled place, yet it has to be said. You're all acting like fucking idiots waving flags in eachother's faces fueling National hatred, and don't deny that flags fuel hatred.
What you should do is band together and vow to be humans for a change rather than Fascistic-Slaves to a dream that died when Russian tanks rolled into Berlin...... Nationalism. We're now a globe, weather it be in a social or economic sense we are now one nation, yet governed differently the lines between us are now blurred. People like YOU delay this evolutionary process.

How can you repair racial tensions when race difference still remains. Dump the flags, the secular marches, and the symbolism, and pluck out the drug dealers and refurbish the Republican Army and then you shall build for the future. Without flags and hurt.

by avan63 Fri Sep 02, 2005 23:13

Why intellectualise and argue. You only fuel dissatisfaction, the truth is people argue, fight and war with each other everyday. The challenge is to remove people from their comfortable warring corner and re-educated or re-pasture them into retirement. Time to move on, the sooner the dinosaurs realise their position as pasted, the better for all concerned.

by Barry Sat Sep 03, 2005 16:56

Antrim town and its surrounding area is festooned with the flags of illegal loyalist organisations of every hue . The display of these flags itself is illegal not to mention intimidating . Members of these organisations are intimidating , pipebombing and burning catholics from their homes in the greater Belfast and Antrim areas yet the PSNI claim they dont have the resources to either protect vulnerable catholics or remove the flags of the organisations attacking them . However as soon as 2 tricolours appear in a mainly nationalist estate (2!) a team is dispatched to remove them forthwith .

Avan 63 admits he knows SFA about the north yet is quite happy to equate people who respect Irelands tricolour with National Socialists . My only response to that is away and boil your head in a bucket of mad dogs shite you patronising twit . Theres a huge difference between someone who respects their own country and someone who believes their race is superior to everyone elses and has a right to dominate and discriminate against others on the grounds of race and religion .. If facism died in 1945 why were people being murdered and beaten by police and troops here for demanding their civil rights during the 1970s ?. Pogroms and Kristalnachts were a fact of life here under the Orange state and British rule long after Hitlers demise..

Personally speaking I dont agree with flags being flown on lamposts at all but then again I dont live in a bigotted hole like Antrim . Up until recently it was a criminal offence for a tricolour to be displayed and it seems in Antrim it still is . Your lucky to be living in a part of Ireland were you dont have British emblems or quasi facist British organisations forced down your throat . The tricolour to many here is a symbol of their rejection of all that and the rotten British state which sustains it . Its a symbol of defiance and rejection of the British state and a means of asserting a native identity instead of the plastic artificial Norther Ireland identity Britain imposed .Youve a nerve equating those people with Nazis . Or baming me for holding up the evolutionary process of your global fuck knows what youre on about .

by Barry Sat Sep 03, 2005 16:59

That post was in reply to Jay Acra , count of of fecked if I know and not Avan 63 . Their weird names got me mixed up between them .

by X Fri Oct 21, 2005 14:00

This brings a whole new perspective on the Northern Ireland conflict. If you claim Nationalists are a different race to Unionists can you expalin to me the main racial physical or cultural differences?

What a joke....

by jack Fri Oct 21, 2005 17:55

why are sinn fein going to sit under the union jack in stormont then ? and join the British psni ? And if you want your country back why did yes surrender all the guns ?

Oh and thanks for westminster giving us loads more money now we gave up the guns . Half a million quid sterling ? Thatll do nicely British government thankyou

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/20/nsinn20.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/20/ixportal.html

Socialist republicans yer oul arse