Israeli Propaganda in West Belfast.

by Buck Wed Aug 24, 2005 06:16

The Irish language, as are all languages, is separate from politics. It is something that can unite all people, regardless of political beliefs.

While the political system may be needed to help bring about change in many instances- language per se is apolitical.

by Buck Wed Aug 24, 2005 06:32

"The Irish language was wiped out by colonisation"

The English, or later some Irish govts. never succeeding in "wiping out Irish"

-"Policy for about two decades has clearly been to let the language die by stealth"-
J.J Lee (1989)

"The 'revival' of hebrew in Israel is now being linked nationally to the Irish Language."

Those of us who are serious about the making the country more bilingual, are interested in case studies of other countries who have been successful in reviving their languages.

From reading Lá's coverage of the lecture, and the lecture in Udáras na Gaeltachta, I am certain that Dr Shlomos visit was worthwhile.

by vine Fri Sep 09, 2005 15:25

It just little hard for narrow minds like Aine Fox to get it.

by spycatcher Fri Sep 09, 2005 16:12

interesting that this post is revisited at random after some time since the last post, israeli trolls at work, dont worry lads no body actually believes you are interested in peace

gaza pullout thanks to hamas and IJ

by Noel Fri Sep 09, 2005 17:08

'gaza pullout thanks to hamas and IJ'

Anyone who believes that Arik the tactical genius has allowed either Hamas or Islamic Jihad determine Israeli policy is either ignorant, naive or most probably both.
Gaza was never going to remain part of Israel, whereas Jerusalem along with Samaria and Judea will. It's a geographical and tactical certainty. Why there's even a new fence demarcating the areas. Which is handy.

by Noel Fri Sep 09, 2005 17:26

Was wondering how soon it would be before Israeli noel would be online,

it seems noel that the fact that the west bank and jeruslaem are illegally occupied under international law does not bother u. Samaria and Judea are biblical concepts and used by the israelis to justify their occupation. Are you one of these people who claim the occupation is not illegal or that its not really an occupation at all. Are you in the Irish Friends of Israel Movement?

Occupation denial is akin to holocaust denial

The lights are on again in northumberland road

as regards Arik why noel dont u mention that next saturday is the aniversary of one of his best prices of work, i.e shabra and chatila

Zionism is dead Noel u backed the wrong side

by Noel Fri Sep 09, 2005 20:12

Where to begin with this ill informed nonsense.
'Occupation denial is akin to holocaust denial'
Such a cack-handed attempt to trivialise the Holocaust usually points towards an anti-Semite - but I'll reserve judgement.

'as regards Arik why noel dont u mention that next saturday is the aniversary of one of his best prices of work, i.e shabra and chatila'

This is probably referring to the Phalangist massacres at Sabra and Shatilla, the anniversary of which is next Friday. If this stuff really angered or saddened you perhaps you should show enough respect to get at least one of the basic facts correct.

'Zionism is dead Noel u backed the wrong side'

Not only has Zionism achieved it's goal - a homeland for the Jewish nation in Israel - but for the first time ever there are now more Jews in Israel than the rest of the world.
I think you'll find Zionism is very much alive and prospering. That probably does anger you.

by kintama Fri Sep 09, 2005 23:28

Strange link from Noel on the story about Gaza relating to the murder of Mohammed Al Durrah.
I had always thought he was shot by Israelis but no Noel has found out that he was actually killed by Palestinians assisted by Mohammeds father to embarrass the Israeli leadership.
I was sceptical but the fact that posters of the dead boy were displayed at his funeral swung it for me. Of course it was all a dastardly Palestinian plot, pick a young boy do up some posters of him then kill him in a staged execution with his fathers willing participation. As the villans in Scooby Doo would say "we would have gotten away with it if it was,nt for those pesky impartial Israeli investigators who spotted the dastardly plan.
It is very clear that this public execution was a major embarrassment to Israel though quite why that should be beats me given that of the 118 Palestinians killed by them in the first months of the Intifada 33 of the victims were children.
Next week Noel proves that dastardly Republicans deliberately shot 14 unarmed civilians in Derry to embarrass the British. In the final expose of his trilogy he will disclose how a wedding party in Baghdad deliberately blew themselves to pieces in a dastardly attempt to embarrass the USA.

by Noel Sat Sep 10, 2005 00:21

'Of course it was all a dastardly Palestinian plot'

Perhaps Kintama is sceptical of Palestinian plots?
Perhaps he missed the footage of the 'funeral' where the dead victim of IDF brutality was unceremoniously dropped and miraculously got up and ran.
Or how about the Jenin 'massacre' ?
Palestinian reports of hundreds killed - women and children slaughtered.

And they woulda got away with it too.
If it wasn't for those pesky yids.

by kintama Sat Sep 10, 2005 00:45

Just spotted that that what I thought was kids is actually Yids. Still doesnt take away from the fact
that you support the murder of Palestinian children.

by TheTroll Sat Sep 10, 2005 00:46

Zionist occupation of the west bank is "illegal"??? And what makes the ZIonist's bloodsoaked occupation of the rest of the Palestinian's homeland LEGAL??? Is it that the Judeo-Christian dominated 1947 UN gave ZIonists thier blessings for ZIonists to be murderous thieves of Palestinian lands??? Is it that the whore politicians give the ZIonist crusader state diplomatic recognition.

Hell, that isn't the first time allegedly Christian peoples gave European second sons thier blessings for the second son CRUSADERS to be murderous thieves of the same fucking lands. And like the pope had no right to give the land to allegedly Christian crusaders, NOONE in your country or mine has ANY business give ZIonists Palestinian lands. Even if that would make the offense of ZIonism LEGAL is some parts of ZIonist occupied Palestine while making Zionist occupation of other parts of Zionist occupied Palestine "illegal."

Well, slavery was once legal too. Doesn't mean slavery wasn't an offense, does it??? Being legal??? For slavery to exist legaly, you needed 3 things, slaves, masters, and the political entity deciding who gets to dump on whom.

by Noel Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:29

'One small flaw in the Al Durrah conspiracy theory the Israelis forgot to make a story up to explain away the fact that Mohammeds face was exposed throughout his funeral'

I never claimed Mohammed al-Dura was not murdered. On the contrary, he was viciously, callously and cynically murdered - by Palestinians.

The 'funeral' I mentioned was another incident entirely. Same perps however.
Jenin - ditto.

If you want to take up the gauntlet, perhaps next time you'll come a little more prepared and a lot more knowledgable.

btw. Apology accepted.

by noel Sat Sep 10, 2005 13:39

Again the embassy is at work,

As regards the massacres at shabra and chatilla, you are right the massacres were carried out by the phalange, under the watchful eyes of the israelis, by people trained armed and in the case of haddad militia transported to the spot. Arik as you call the murderer sharon was removed from office by his own government for being held indirectly responsible. The world has long since come to the conclusion that Israel and the murderer sharon was to blame here.
He even misled his own government about the invasion, these are all facts

As regards anti-semiticism- Palestinians are semites, semite refers to language groupsings and in that regards Palestinians as far more semitic that many israelis. Anti-semiticism is a term appropriated by the Israelis .

As regards Holocaust denial and occupation denial. 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust, how many russians? how many roma? how many poles, how many homosexuals? they dont count because the term holocaust has been appropraited by israel. It is only since 1967 that this cult of the holocaust has developed.

As Mordechai Vanunu has recently stated, the palestinian peiople today are paying for the sins of Europe 60 years ago.

One holocaust does not justify another. Israel has become the abuser.

As regards Zionism being alive, the aim of zionism was to have a jewsih homeland in the biblical lands of israel, this will not happen, gaza is gone, the west bank will follow and so too will east jerusalem, thus zionism has failed.

How Noel can you argue that the people of East Jerusalem should be ethnically cleansed to make way for biblical fulfillment of zionists.

Israel is a racist state and those who defend it are in the same category as those who defended the Nazis, Stalins etc etc, you cannot expect the world to stand by as a people slaughter another, Israel of all nations should accept this.

by Bernard Cantillon Sat Sep 10, 2005 21:27 Berlin, Germany

I am sick of reading these pieces, where people try to dress up their support for the abolition of the state of Israel in some supposed care for the Palestinians. The best thing that people could do for the Palestinians is make them realise that any future that they will have, has to recognise the existence of Israel. I support the handover of the full West Jordanland to the Palestinian people and the establishment of a Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as the capital, though I would prefer if Jerusalem was an international city with Palestinian/Israeli joint and equal administration.

The state of Israel was born in 1947 and yes, one could say that it was maybe an injustice, but we have a situation where it is there with fifty eight years and as such is a fact on the ground. It is a functioning democracy with a large mostly well integrated ethnic Arab population (20%). It is unreasonable to expect that people should be allowed 'to return as refugees'. Many of the so-called refugees are actually second, third and even fourth generation, so I think that they cannot claim any right to be allowed into Israel. If you accept this right, you would agree with Russia paying Germany for the Kaliningrad or the Czechs handing over the former Sudetenland and lands and properties throughout their country to millions of Germans. How far back do you want to go? Do you support the murder of white Zimbabweans, because their grandparents were colonialists? Do you think that 270 million US citizens should apologise to the Native Americans and pack up and leave returning to their 'ancestral homelands' in Europe, Africa and Asia and leaving the Native Americans to settle the land of America.

It is an injustice to Israel to question its right to exist. There are no really legitimate nations in the world. The Palestinian nation is as much an imagined structure as the Israeli state. The weasel words of the Arab world in regard to Israel should be treated with contempt by all that cherish human rights.

Israel has to be supported and has to be afforded security and peace with the help of the rest of the world. Blindly supporting the Palestinian militants is harmful to Israeli's but does even more harm to Palestinians. Hamas and IJ are callous vile murdering scum and should not be offered support anywhere by civilised people. They need to be eliminated for peace to reign. Voicing support for them is the supporting of murderers. These organisations make the Front National (France), NDP (Germany), FPÖ (Austria) and the BNP (UK) look like human rights organisations. Hamas and IJ are the most vile extremist terrorists, fundamentalists and assassins and should be treated with the same contempt that all decent people treat the four far right parties throughout our continent that I have deliberately mentioned for comparison.

by kintama Sat Sep 10, 2005 23:15

Noel just because you say something doesnt make it right, the notion that a parent would be complicit in the murder of his own child just to embarrass Israel is ridiculous. Your deepseated anti Arab racism shines through in this nasty 'nothing is beneath the Arabs' diatribe.
The point relating to Mohammeds funeral related to the attempt by Israel to suggest that he did not die something obviously even you do not believe.
Not sure where Bernard read in any of the posts that Israel does not have the right to exist. His support for a Palestinian state is laudable however it is not clear what he means by 'so called refugees'. By what definition are they not refugees.
Blind support for the IDF is in itself not helpful given that it and the settler movement have their own fair share of vile murdering scum . Israeli acceptance of international law would be the most effective method of isolating Hamas and IJ .
They do not of course exist in a vacuum and the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian land only serves to strengthen their position .

by TheTroll Sun Sep 11, 2005 06:58

Wow, Bernard (from berlin) thinks Vichy Palestine means peace for the palestinians. Feeling a bit nostalgic for days when people in Berlin had some right to say who gets to LIVE in other people's lands??? And Palestinians DO recognize the ZIonist occupation of thier homeland by 4 generations of murderous thieves who have never stopped stealing palestinian lands and have never hesitated to MURDER the Palestinians who resist the ZIonist's continuing offenses.

And then bernard has the gaul to compare descendants of murderous thieves with 4 generations of murderous thieves who have never stopped stealing Palestinian lands and have never hesitated to murder the Palestinians who resist, or are just in the wrong place, as defined by the 4 generations of murderous thieving ZIonist crusaders. Well, descendants of murderous thieves might have a right to be where they are. But Zionists are not descended from murderous thieves. ZIonists ARE murderous thieves who are stealing more Palestinian lands and murdering Palestinians who resist.

What right does "Israel" have to exist??? Is it because they will murder more Palestinians to stay??? Did more French people die in the Nazi invasion and occupation of France or did more people die in France's liberation? A right to exist does NOT include a birthright of murderous theft of your neighbor's homeland which is a CRIME even with Judeo-christian dominated 1947 UN's blessings. And murderous theft of palestinian lands is a crime that all 4 generations of murderous thieving ZIonist crusaders share.

Hamas and IJ are not JUST responding to the 48ers offenses, but all the offenses that all 4 generations of murderous thieving ZIonist crusaders have been and ARE still comiting. You don't have to go back in time at all. Palestinians freedom fighters are going up against murderous thieves, not just descendants of murderous thieves as you would try to portray. Thier actions stem from the extream duress of never ending Zionist offenses.

by Bernard Cantillon Sun Sep 11, 2005 14:39 Berlin, Germany

To the individual who goes under the name of 'The Troll',

You are a disgrace. Your anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish tendencies mark you as somebody not fit for civilised company. The State of Israel exists and will continue to exist. It is a nation with a thriving democracy, which cannot be said for any of its neighbours. It is a settler nation, true, but so are many other nations. Many nations and peoples displaced other peoples throughout history. The displacement of the Palestinians is a fact, but let us not forget that they were the ones that raced across the border into West Jordanland, Syria, Lebanon and Eygpt. The pyschopathic hatred of the Jewish people displayed by some of these 'refugees' is sickening and it is not surprising that the Israeli people are willing to support severe action against them. The Palestinian people have to realise that they must annihilate the militants and drive them from their door to live in peace with the Israeli people. Israel wants peace. I am not so sure about Palestine. I think that there are many people, expecially in the Christian and moderate Muslim communities in Palestine, who see the road forward as being one that involves working with the Israeli's. Unfortunately, the cancer of Islamic fundamentalism is alive and thriving in Palestine. These evil people are the worst sort and are endangering their own people as much as the Israeli people. IJ and Hamas don't care if children die in the terror campaign that they have caused. They actively welcome it. Afterall, these animals encourage people to get on buses and blow themselves up, murdering Israeli's. These people have no respect for human rights. If they ever get their hands on Palestine, it will not just be the Jews that they are driving out., they also want the Christian community, that been there historically longer than them, also to be driven out. They have a vision of an religiously cleansed Middle East, in some vulgar and montrous caliphate that spans from Central Asia to the Atlantic coast of Africa. That is what you are supporting when you support IJ and Hamas. The leaders of these groups don't care about Palestine. They are vile animals driven by the annihilation of the cultures of everybody else around them. Mainstream Islam, Christianity, Judaism and the Secularists must unite to prevent these awful beasts from seizing the Palestinian nation. They must be made unwelcome everywhere. There must be no burrow that they can climb into. The Israeli people need to be given peace and security from terrorists and assassins that strike in the night. Isreal's cause is the cause of everyone who values justice and freedom. The goal of a Palestinian state is not against this, but it must be a state that lives in peace with Israel.

B

by TheTroll Sun Sep 11, 2005 16:49

Zionist occupation exists, so you think thta gives the Zionist occupation legitimacy. Well, Nazi occupation existed in thier neighbor's homelands. Did that make nazis innocent victims of the vanquished peoples like you claim about 4 generations of murderous thieving ZIonist crusaders???

Zionists have a democracy. And what is it about ZIonist having a democracy that gives them a birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian lands??? For some reason, you seem to think that because ZIonist crusaders have a government, currency, a flag, and diplomatic recognition of western interloapers, that ZIonists have a birthright of murderous theft. Sorry, that is just dung.

"the psychopathic hatred of jewish people displayed by some of these "refugees" is sickening" And what about the hatred of german people displayed by some Czech people. And the Lidice responce that you seem to suggest is a valid responce of Zionists towards thier victims??? Did that hatred of germans change a damned thing? It was the nazi invadors offenses that created that hatred. And it is ZIonist offenses since long before 1948 that created the hatred Palestinian victimas of Zionists feel. But you would scapegoat the natural human responce to murderous thieves and blame Palestinians. You shovel dung on our psychi. Scapegoating the Palestinian for the hatreds Zionist offenses created is as vile as scapegoating Czechs for the hatreds they had for Nazis and all germans.

"Israel want's peace" you wrote. And at the same time you wrote it, Zionists are stealing more and more palesinian lands for settlements and a wall to "protect" those new settlements as well as the rest of ZIonist occupied palestine. Kind of hard to buy into your vacant supposition when Zionists are stealing more and more Palestinian lands, destroying more Palestinian lives, and murdering the Palestinians who resist the contiuing offenses of ZIonism's 4 generations of murderous theives.

Yes, there are Palestinians who would appease ZIonist offenses to survive or make a personal profit (abbas being 1 making a profit). And there were many French people willing to appease nazi occupation of French lands and accept a Vichy state. But that doesn't change the dynamics of the conflict/Zoionist war of conquest.

And the freedom fighters of france also rejected appeasment for Vichy France, just as Hamas and IJ reject appeasing Zionist offenses for thier own personal gain. French Freedom fighters never numbered more than 6000 under Nazi occupation. And the Palestinian freedom fighters also are but a small percentage. And like French freedom fighters, Palestinian freedom fighters probably also expect to be made leaders of the lands liberated from Zionist crusaders.If only religous fanatics are freedomm fighters, then that sucks for Palestinians, but it doesn't change the dynamics of the conflict, now does it??? As I pointed out, more French people died in the liberation of france. Would you also be willing to scapegoat the french freedom fighters for getting more French people killed, like you do in reguards to Hamas and IJ. Scapegoating the freedom fighters for the hostilities created by Zionist offenses is the same tactric Nazis used. Ad prejudiced Germans would buy into that dung too, just as you baught into it.

I am not supporting Hamas and IJ. I support the other 99.999% of Palestinian's right not to be destoryed in any way by Zionist crusaders and thier western interloaper allies reloading the ZIonist crusader's guns as fast as ZIonist unlaod them into Palestinians. I do so by trashing the scapegoating tactics of the Zionist's enablers, like you. What ever the outcome of the Zionist's war of conquest, it should be based on the truth, and not on prejudiced propaganda of people who use rationalizations, lies, and scapegoating of the victims, like you use.

"Israel cause is the cause of everyone who values justice and freedom" you wrote. It is crap. "Israel's" cause is murderous theft of Palestinian lands. As you called for the world outside to fight against religous fanatic Muslims mistreating non-muslim Palestinians, you admitted that the ZIonists can also fight such injusitces from outside of Zionist occupied Palestine. Zionists do not have to be murderous thieves of Palestinian lands to fight against religious fanatics over running palestinian society. but you suggested that because ZIonists do fight against those religious fanatics, that ZIonists have a birthright of murderous theft of palestinian lands. That is just another rationalization that has no substance.

And you last statement is the most Nazi statement you have writen. If Palestinians want VIchy Palestine, they MUST appease ZIonist occupation of the rest of Zionist occupied palestine.

And up top, you accuse me of being anti-Jewish. Saying that Zionists have no birthright of murderous theft of even 1 fucking rock in palestine doesn't make me anti-Jewish anymore than saying nazis had no right of mruderous theft of thier neighbor's lands would make me anti-German. But you would appease the Zionist's bloodsoaked offenses against Palestinians JUST because Zionist, in adition to being murderous thieves, are Jews. That showcases your own prejudices.

by Bernard Cantillon Sun Sep 11, 2005 23:24 Berlin, Germany

To the Troll,

Please tell me what makes a fourth generation Israeli any different from any other fourth generation citizen across the world? You clearly think that people like Yachad and the left of Avoda are as bad as Sharon. I would disagree. I think that the historical circumstances that founded Israel is a fact and there is no point wishing it otherwise. The descendents of Palestinians that left what became Israel in 1947 have no more right to claim to be able to go to Israel than the Germans protesting to be allowed to go to the Sudetenland. Peoples have pushed peoples off ground that was not theirs for millenia and it is always a crime. The rationale for the foundation of Israel was equally dubious, but so is the claim to land made by every nation in the world. The Normans and later the English displaced the local peoples in Ireland, but as had the Vikings, the Celts and whoever came before them. Do we seek out the 'descendants of the real native Irish' and give them the land of Ireland and the rest of us with conquerer names maybe should pack up and leave. Israel is a reality. There are people that are Israeli and nothing else. That is a reality. The Palestinians must realise this. There will always be an Israel and I think that all civilised people should support that. The Palestinians in many ways were given an existence by the Israeli's. If anyone is to blame for the lack of belief in the right of the Palestinian people, it is first the British and French governments of the Inter War years, who refused to accept the existence of either Palestinians or Israeli's. This was followed by the Jordanians, who declared that there was no such thing as Palestine or Israel: It was West Jordan. Indeed, if Israel had not occupied West Jordanland, than the Palestinian people would be arguing and probably being brutally suppressed by the Jordanians. There has been a long unhappy existence for Palestine. Now is theire chance to achieve freedom. I believe that there will be no support for a wall if the bombings and attacks stop. That is a matter for the Palestinians. Everybody in Palestine that belives in freedom must drive Hamas and IJ from their door. They must fight them everywhere and force the police to be strict with them. Than Palestine can be free.

B

by kintama Mon Sep 12, 2005 00:30

If everyone in Israel acted to remove illegal settlers then there would be a chance for peace.
Remove the obstruction to peace which is not Hamas it is merely a symptom of a failure by the US to implement international law.

by TheTroll Mon Sep 12, 2005 06:21

And this from a man who used the same tactic Nazis used. Nazi propaganda said to Americans that they should unite with Hitler against the communiests because commies would brutalize eastern european lands.

WOW!

You must have some contempt for the intelect of IMC visitors. Just look at your rationalizations.

What makes them different? Well, the only Americans I know who are murderous thieves of thier nieghbor's homelands are Zionist Americans.

"Historical circumstances" Good GOD! Why not use "because ZIonists ARE 4 generations of murderous thieves (and Americans, etc, who join the ZIonist's offenses, what? You think the newer zionists are living on the 48ers sholders? )."


Since ZIonists ARE 4 genereations of murderous thieves, unlike Irish people who's anscestors WERE mursderous thieves, I don't see any reason to appease murderous thieves simply because they ARE murderous thieves.

And then you get really bizzar. Because Jordan ( a political unit created and supported by Britts) clames Palestinian lands as thier own, and is opresive as hell to the locals of palestine, then Zionists should be appeased. Right. Well, Soviet SLAVS attacking Poland's SLAVS and occupying eastern Poland, claming it as thier's, DOES NOT mean that Nazis attacking Western Poland were not ALSO murderous thieves of the Pole's homeland. Screw Jordan. And screw anyone who would suggest that Zionists have a birthright of murderous theft of Palestinian land because heshemites are assholes TOO. I don't see how Heshemites have a right to rule over "Jordan" much less Palestinians. What, because ENGLAND once created a political union once called "Trans-Jordan"??? This is the Ireland IMC. Don't try to convicne them that britts have any business forcing dung on ANYBODY.

Poles went looking for work in "Oscar Schinlder's" factory. "His" because the nazi generals gave him a piece of paper, as meaningless as the pieces of paper Zionist generals give to ZIonist crusaders, saying it was HIS) . But does a Pole's choosing to try to feed his/her families rather than watch them starve by looking for work in "shcindler's" factory mean that Nazis were not murderous thieves. Well then, we can be as equaly sure that palesitnians working for Zionist crusaders doesn't change a dmaned thing either.

And then you finish with your Nazi sentiments. If Palestinians don't accept Vichy palestine, 100%, then Zionists have a right to bring about lidices without end. And what did Nazis do when Vichy France failed to stop less than 6000 French freedom fighters from fighting against Nazis??? Well, you are just grazing the surface there, aren't you??? Nazis did what Zionists DO and threaten, as you just did. Kinda creapy when it turns out you share the moral ethics of Nazis, isn't it???

Nazis also built a wall to keep out people who would liberate people occupied by murderous thieves.

by Bernard Cantillon Mon Sep 12, 2005 21:41 Berlin, Germany

To the Troll,

How dare you use the term Nazi in reference to me. It distracts from the severity of the montrous regime that existed in Germany between 1933 and 1945. You hide behind a pseudonym and try to compare the support for the sovereign Israeli peoples right to govern themselves as something with something that is viscious and wrong. You are a viscious anti-Jewish bigot. How dare you try to make a comparison between the Nazi regime and the State of Israel. A people asking to be allowed to live in peace are portrayed by you as 'murderous thieves'. I support the existence of the State of Israel, because I believe in the existence of the Israeli people, who have chosen to live there. Every Jew is not an Israeli and neither is every Israeli a Jew, but Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. It exists, because of the vile and disgusting things which this proud people had to endure from all countries in Europe (including Ireland). The Holocaust and Germany's deportation of the Jewish people was the final and most serious event in centuries of discrimination. But all European nations were and are guilty.

If you claim that the right to return is valid for the grandchildren and greatgrandchildren of people who lived in what is now Israel until 1947, how can you describe the return of the Jewish people to the land that was stolen from them after the ransacking of the second temple in the first millenium as not also valid. History and nations are merely constructs. But they are meaningful, because they allow people to decide to govern their common interests together. I hope that we one day do not need nations and that all religions and concepts of race have been banished into antiquity, but until then Israel will exist and will be strong. Every stone thrown at the Israeli state is an attack on democrats everywhere. Israel must be supported and cherished. I want the Palestinians also to join in the democratic arena. I would like them to have an area of common movement with the Israelis and a state of their own. That means that the people that would strap a bomb to their bodies and like wild beasts climb aboard a bus or enter a disco full of teenagers, must be annihilated and destroyed, because they are a threat to the Palestinian people, more so even then the Israeli's. Palestinians should treat these people as pariahs. Instead, a significant portion of the population seems to glorify them.

There will never be peace as long as fundamentalist Islamists continue to interfere in the affairs between Israel and Palestine. Their removal would be the first step to peace.

Bernard

by kintama Mon Sep 12, 2005 22:37

There will never be peace until fundamentalist zionists continue their illegal occupation supported by fundamentalist christians in the US administration. It would also help if Israelis would desist from electing war criminals.
Bernard is a bit touchy about comparisons between zionists and the Nazis. The Palestinians who 'raced across the border' as Bernard so nonchantly expresses it did so in fear for their lives as a result of Nazi style tactics by murderers who had no qualms about wiping out Palestinian villages.

by Bernard Cantillon Mon Sep 12, 2005 23:41 Berlin, Germany

Kintama,

You title your post with the laudable 'Cherish all the children', but what about the right of Israeli children to live in their country in peace and security?

Are they not your concern, or as the racist that I know that you are, do you not care about Israeli children?

Bernard

by kintama Tue Sep 13, 2005 00:00

Oh how tiresome labelled a racist by Bernard, the irony of it all . Silly little tirades do little to advance the argument.
It remains the fact that Israelis have it within their gift to immediately create the circumstances where a peaceful two state peace could be achieved. Your bogeymen in Hamas could then be isolated if they continued to attack Israelis however I suspect like Hezbollah they would be satisfied with withdrawal of Israeli forces from all illegally occupied land . As you are totally unwilling to accept the democratic wishes of the Palestinian people who have elected many Hamas representatives there seems little point in dragging this thread out further.

by Bernard Cantillon Tue Sep 13, 2005 00:32 Berlin, Germany

Kintama,

Just a little lesson from history. 43% of Germans voted for the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party), better known as the Nazi Party, in 1933. Does that mean that we have to say that in reflection there was a clear democratic mandate for all that happened after that. Of course not, therefore because some Palestinians have the desire to elect Hamas or IJ, than I have no respect for those that would do that, but that does mean that we should aim all our efforts at ensuring that the more moderate forces are stimulated and bankrolled by all those that care about freedom. Hamas and IJ are dangerous extremists and need to be annihilated. The authority needs to move against them, not allow them into government.

I am going to say something that I have no doubt you will not understand. I am against home demolitions, but I have no sympathy for anyone that is willing to vote for Hamas that has her home demolished. They have brought it on themselves. It is the innocents tied up in this, that I worry for, but like the Germans in WWII, it is no excuse to say that it was not they themselves. If you know that your neighbour or a family member is planning to murder Israeli's than you have to turn on that person and excommunicate them from your community. That person is your real enemy, not Israel.

The good people of Palestine (and I believe that the overwhelming majority are good) need to track, hunt and destroy the militants within, so that they can live in peace. That is a necessity for all the military barriers coming down. Freedom will be achieved through peace, not murder.

There will be no excuse for a protection wall if the Palestinians embrace democracy and root out the cancer within their own community. They will be able to have two states and peace and freedom, if only they make the right historic step. Freedom is valuable, but it must be a two way process. They will gain freedom, if they abandon violence.

Bernard

by kintama Tue Sep 13, 2005 00:56

I understand Bernard that you understand why Israelis would destroy houses, at times with their occupants still inside, but have no understanding of why Palestinians would carry out actions of similar depravity. I understand that you support the annihilation of some Palestinians but suggest everyone must cherish all Israelis including their mass murderer Head of State.
If the Israelis abandoned the violence of their illegal occupation the conditions for a durable peace would then exist. I dont suppose you will understand this so lets call it quits and you can comfort yourself that flagrant disregard for international law is acceptable. You will of course be wrong.

by Arii Tue Sep 13, 2005 01:46

Sadly, anti-semitism of the like expressed by Aine Fox et al is rampant, even closer to home.

No protests from the IPSC over the burning of Jewish places of worship I see...

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Tue Sep 13, 2005 03:30

But I understand that the Palestinians asked that Israel would themselves demolish the synagogues.
The Israelis found this hard because of pressure from Rabbis and left the unsavoury work to the Palestinians.
Would it not have been better if both sides had agreed that the Palestinians would put the synagogues to use for some good work or charity.

by Justin Tue Sep 13, 2005 08:33

Justin,

Jewish law forbade the destruction of the synagogues - which means the PA inherited the structures intact. There was no need for their destruction.

When the final peace settlement is signed and a Palestinian state is established - let's imagine all of Jerusalem is within the newly bordered Israel - how would the world react if Jews destroyed the al Aqsa mosque?

As for there being no protests from the IPSC.
They are probably protesting that the burning synangogues were empty of Jews.

by Noel Tue Sep 13, 2005 15:29

Kintama,
Please enlighten me - you have written that the Israeli head of state is a war criminal.
How exactly is the Israeli head of state a war criminal?

by Bernard Cantillon Tue Sep 13, 2005 15:40 Berlin, Germany

Can anyone tell me how anyone is supposed to believe that the PA is in control, when the synagogues are burning to the ground. This is a sad day for all Israeli's. A realisation that the trusted partner for peace has no control over its territory and indeed has no interest in controlling the worst excesses of their people. Their leader can do nothing, but pretend that it is not happening.

Nothing takes away from the fact that this is a disgraceful action by the Palestinians. It is akin to the Taliban destruction of ancient Buddhist sites some years back. I know that all sensible people will take this as a sign to the PA has again shown that it falls far short of the mark required by the world.

A previous poster questioned whether some of the IPSC people had anything to sy about this. of course not, they never comment reasonably when a militant boards a bus and murders people, so why would they be concerned that the Palestinians are willing to desecrate Jewish sites of worship.

If the Israeli's accidently hit a mosque, the IPSC go bonkers. It speaks for itself.

B

by kintama Wed Sep 14, 2005 00:25

Unleash the indignation of the righteous -synagogues have been burned. While desecration of any sacred place of worship is disgraceful the reality is that these were deconsecrated buildings. Against the wishes of the PA the Israelis left them standing for the propaganda value their destruction, as the last remaining symbols of brutal occupation, would bring. This has now brought forth the indignation of the righteous peddling the old chestnut that Arabs are animals carrying out evil deeds the peace loving zionists would never countenance.
The relatives of those residents of Qibya maassacred in 1953 when the local mosque was blown up would disagree. Likewise relatives of those murdered at the wall of the mosque in Sufsaf some of whom lost further family members in the massacre at Shatila. Massacres at mosques are indeed a bit of a feature of Zionist handiwork as at the Damash Mosque and the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron. Best by far however is what I believe is known as the Dairyma Mosque, blown up while Arab civilians mostly elderly sheltered inside. But places of worship are not the only sacred cows to fall foul of the nice zionists. The graves of the dead of Deir Yassin were bulldozed to make way for homes for those who slaughtered the occupants of the village.
But of course only Arabs fall short of the mark required by the world in the eyes of the righteous indignant. Cant and hypocrisy.
To Noel the answer to the silly question in your heading is no. As for your murderous war criminal none other than Arik who started early in Qibya and kept on in Lebanon when militias under his control did their dirty work in Sabra and Shatila. However time to forgive and forget I have a one way ticket to Belgium for Arik which I would be happy to send on to him.

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Wed Sep 14, 2005 01:02

Israel's Supreme Court gave the green light on Thursday last for the destruction of all of Gaza's synagogues but because of some Rabbis' objections the Israeli army decided first to suspend the operation and then to stop it.
This, of course, got the Israeli Government off the hook with some of its Rabbis but left the dilemma of demolition or change of use for the Palestinians.
If the Israeli Government was willing to destroy the Synagogues, why is their later demolition by the Palestinians being compared to Kristallnacht?
It would have been better, in my opinion, if the Palestinians had been able to use the Synagogues rather than destroy them,. However, on second thoughts, had they remained standing even for good use, there would have been a danger that they would be a source of continued conflict within Gaza and a target for exteremists for decades to come. It was Hobson's choice for the Palestinians and yes, the outcry of indignation in some but not all quarters of Israeli-supportive media rings hollow, given the circumstances.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/09092005/323/israel-suspends-demolition-gaza-synagogues.htm

by Bernard Cantillon Wed Sep 14, 2005 01:55 Berlin, Germany

The Troll has shown his true colours. He has denied the Holocaust.

In the city where I sit now, if you were to say or write the disgraceful shite that you have posted on your computor, you would be arrested, because he who forgets or denies spreads doubt among future generations and means that it could happen again.

The Holocaust is a reality. Six million Jews were murdered by the Nazi's and their willing helpers across Europe. Your denial of this is sick. You have discredited your care about the Palestinians. The Palestinians need less people like you. I have heard that it is possible to buy the Protocols of the Elders of Zion openly throughout the Middle East. Does your clearly quite tiny mind ever wonder why the Israelis are armed to the teeth, when they are surrounded on all sides by people who think that the Holocaust is a work of fiction and that rabbis sacrifice gentile babies.

I once had a housemate, who used to cheer Israeli bus bombings, who reacted with fury to the notion that Ibrahim, Abraham and Avraham were the same person (he said that the Jews did not have common ancesters with him, but he was happy to accept that Christians did). He also told me that I was wrong to say that Jesus was a Jew and called it a Jewish conspiracy that I believed this to be the case. He also regularly called for the Jews to be thrown into the sea. He came from Jordan. I thought that he was a random loon, but have discovered that there are millions of Muslims (and Christians) that are willing to believe the most despicable things about Jews. I say Muslims specifically, because the nations around Israel are mostly that and no Christian church will sanction anyone climbing aboard a bus and committing an act of murder. There is something wrong in the state of Islam now. Once Islam was the centre of literature and learning. The Sultans were surrounded by artists and writers and artists of all hues. What has happened that Islam has regressed. I do not believe that Islam is specifically a backward faith (I think all faiths are a bit backward and out of date), but I think that backward people have gotten control over the faith and its adherents. There is nothing right or God-like about being anti-Jewish, or oppressing women, hanging gay people or offering full blessings to suicide bombs. There are many Muslims that are not backwards or regressive, but they are hidden out of fear of the reaction and actions of the extremists.

Kintama, I am not bad. I just want to live in a peaceful world and I am annoyed that everyone seems to see any crime against Israel as justified, because of the Palestinians. There are two sides to every coin. I sympathise with the desire of the Palestinians to govern themselves. I support the EU providing aid to the PA, but I think that the Palestinians have to take some responsibility for their actions. I am against the majority of actions that the IDF have taken in the West Bank and Gaza over the years, but two wrongs do not make a right. I am aware that the synagogues were deconsecrated, but Palestinians fell into the hands of the extremists in Israel and I think that it is clear that Hamas and IJ knew that this would be the effect. I believe that neither organisation is interested in peace and think that the PA has to reign them in and destroy them for peace to reign. I know that the synagogues were going to come down, but did the Palestinians have to confirm the worst that the Israeli's said about them. What sort of a savage rushes in and sets fire to the former place of worship of another. It is wrong in Northern Ireland. It is wrong in Gaza.

To the Troll,
I will no longer continue to communicate with you. You have denied one of the greatest crimes in history and are clearly completely unsound, politically and mentally.

Never forget the holocaust. It happened. If we forget, we are doomed to repeat.

http://www.juedisches-museum-berlin.de/site/DE/homepage.php

http://mysql.snafu.de/cjudaicum/index.html

If you are looking for reading material the above might be a start.

by Bernard Cantillon Wed Sep 14, 2005 02:00 Berlin, Germany

The above post from me is in response to a post that has since disappeared (been taken down). The poster who goes as the Troll had decided to offer his thoughts, which denied the holocaust.

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Wed Sep 14, 2005 03:35

Gazan Palestinians ravaged their own fledgling economic infrastructure. Looters made off with the greenhouses, supposed to have given 14,000 Palestinians a living

September 14, 2005, 12:57 AM (GMT+02:00)

Vandals dismantled the Erez industrial and workshop center, which had jobs for another 12,000. The Peres Peace Center and international coordinator James Wolfensohn raised $14m to buy the greenhouses from the Israeli farmers and so keep the Palestinian workers in their former jobs after their Israeli employers left.

In Erez, the former joint Israeli-Palestinian ventures were ransacked and torn down or vandalized, power centers were smashed and electric wiring pulled out of walls and stolen.

by Arii Wed Sep 14, 2005 04:48

Indeed, the San Francisco Chronicle reports:

"Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip."


"American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash."

Again, where are the IPSC on this issue? Nowhere. It strikes me that to show solidarity with someone does not mean that you keep your mouth shut when they're wrong, or seek to blame their actions on someone else. A statement of condemnation, however, is unlikely to be forthcoming...

by kintama Wed Sep 14, 2005 09:45

Even more shock horror Palestinians loot and destroy infrastruture now where did they learn that from. Let me see who destroyed huge swathes of agricultural land in Gaza in the past few years and who was responsible for looting homes in the West Bank recently . Surely not the 'IDF'.
While the destruction and looting in Gaza may have been self defeating it really is in the halfpenny place when compared to the destruction of agricultural land and infrastructure right acrooss the occupied territories by the occupiers not to mention the disgraceful looting of Palestinians homes.

by Noel Wed Sep 14, 2005 09:47

'A statement of condemnation, however, is unlikely to be forthcoming...'

Arii,
You couldn't be more wrong.
A strong condemnation will swiftly follow - condemning Israel obviously.

This destruction of infrastructure is simply an attempt to maintain the Palestinians victimhood. If the PA was to allow the area to flourish, with working greenhouses and industrial units, the generous victim funding from EU and UN sources would quickly dry up.

And that just wouldn't do.

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Wed Sep 14, 2005 09:50

"Even more shock horror Palestinians loot and destroy infrastruture now where did they learn that from."

Rule number one:

Never blame the perpetrators for their heinous acts. Always blame others, especially if there are Jews around.
Like a guy shooting off his foot because he doesn't like the color shoes the salesman is showing him and thinks to himself: "That'll teach him."

by Noel Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:07

Rule No. 2
If a Palestinian is shot in Gaza - blame the Jews.
Rule No. 3
If a Palestinian is shot in Gaza by Egyptian border guards - blame the Jews.

by ROb Wed Sep 14, 2005 14:04

Nothing new - When Israel conquered Jerusalem in 1967 they discovered that the headstones for the Jewish cemeteries were being used as paving stones.

by Bernard Cantillon Wed Sep 14, 2005 14:18 Berlin, Germany

Do we need any further proof that the IJ and Hams are only interested in war. A people that have jobs re unlikely to want to get on a bus and go into Tel Aviv and murder Israeli's, so what do Hamas do. They destroy the economy. We will hear a sob story from the IPSC in a few months about how the poor Palestinians who once lived on work in the settlement greenhouses now have no trade. Of course, the IPSC will say that Israelis are preventing it access. Nobody will ever hear that the Palestinians razed the greenhouses to teh ground, so therefore there is nowhere to grow the vegetables.
This is shocking and a disgrace. There is no law and order in Palestine clearly. Buring synagogues, breaking and destroying greenhouses (but the IPSC can comfort itself that it was all to be expected and blame the hardy old Israeli's. Even with the Greenhouses, weren't they paid for by the Peres Foundation, so it was Israeli money. The Palestinians would clearly rather starve than accept taht) and all in the one day.

B

by For Bernard Cantillon Wed Sep 14, 2005 15:44

you throw around the word Hamas as if you know something about it. I do hope you are aware that the Israeli's helped finance Hamas in it's earlier years. Now the question one should ask oneself, would be: "Why would they do that? Why would they provide money to an organisation, supposedly dedicated to their downfall?"

Any bright Ideas?

by 1 of indymedia ireland editorial group Wed Sep 14, 2005 17:27

you can find them in the left hand column, near the top of every page on the site. Specifically, we always remove racist posts and we always remove holocaust denial. If you want to discuss such issues, there are other sites on the internet where you may do so. Not here.

by anon and on Wed Sep 14, 2005 19:49

Racism only exists against non-whites, and only Jews are Semites - apparently.....

by kintama Thu Sep 15, 2005 00:29

The position outlined by the Editorial Group on Holocaust denial is welcome however it would be helpful if denial of genocidal intentions toward Palestinians could also be deleted.
The old 'blame it on the Jews' chestnut is undermined somewhat by the murderous activities of the IDF and the Settler Movement. There is no law in Israel when International Law can be treated with such contempt by Sharon backed up by Bush. Agricultural land laid to waste, property destroyed, at times with occupants still in residence, looting of homes and the murder of countless children. The moral highground truly stinks.

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Sep 15, 2005 19:47

"Nothing new - When Israel conquered Jerusalem in 1967 they discovered that the headstones for the Jewish cemeteries were being used as paving stones."

When Jordan invaded, occupied and annexed East Jerusalem, they also ethnically cleansed East Jerusalem of Jews (calling it now "arab" east Jerusalem).
They destroyed Holy places and Synagogues, and even built urinals against the Western Wall so that Moslem men could piss on the Holy site.

Lovely people. Full of respect and tolerance of the faiths of others.

by Earth calling Bernard Cantillon... Thu Sep 15, 2005 20:06

He has repeatedly claimed that the 'savage' Palestinians have destroyed Jewish Synagogues in a display of hatred

What he fails to mention, curiously enough, is that the demolition of those Synagogues was part of the deal worked out between the PA and the Isreali occupiers.

Apparently the Israeli's INSISTED upon the destruction of their Synagogues, as part of the Pull-out agreement.

Which makes it very curious that they now parade this event as an example lack-of-civilisation of Palestinian people.

One might begin to wonder if that was what they had planned all along, were one to be as uncharitable as, for example, Bernard Cantillon, of Berlin Germany, has been about the Palestinian people

by iosaf Thu Sep 15, 2005 20:34

were always going to be the most emotive element on the Israeli and jewish public opinion side and most open to the vagaries of political spin on the wider geopolitical newscreen.

The graves were exhumed, those settlers and their supporters who opposed the withdrawl took refuge in the synagogues and that sent ripples through Israeli society by polarising religious and secular opinion, just about the time Benjamin Netanyahu resigned quite without dignity. The IDF removed them without serious incident.

The manner in which the synagogue buildings were destroyed is thus being spun. Was the PA to ask for a loan of Caterpillar bulldozers. These buildings are no longer sacred, all the religions of the books Christianity, Judaism and Islam have complex rituals to consecrate and de-consecrate buildings and sites, and all former synagogues were de-consecrated and the torah scrolls removed for this years Tisha B'Av religious ceremonies (the date chosen for withdrawl). Tellingly in the spin photos distributed of that day in European press (generally gentile) the tradition of sitting on the floor was titled as proof that the furniture had been ferried away.-

At end, what is occuring now in both Gaza and the west bank is about Palestinian politics, and sees the differing factions of Palestinian opinion spin and posture. & understandably an occupation of well over 35 years has ended, and some in the Palestinian territories believe that was due to rocket attacks, and they face elections in 2006 as do the Israelis, who now see an internal cultural debate on "how jewish are we now?" lines.

I think the most important questions for those who support the Palestinians in the Gaza strip now ought be-

Where is their water going to come from?

Because they don't have anything near enough, and the only nearby sources are in... quite the state of synagogues. & neither a Hamas palestine or a Bibi Netanyahu Israel obsessed by de-consecrated buildings are going to find wells in the desert.

Saleem = Shalom = Water.

and they aren't the only people who need it.

by Barry Thu Sep 15, 2005 21:10

Just reading through Bernards posts I noticed the terms he uses when referring to all those who resist Zionist theft and murder , even by just throwing a stone or voting for someone Bernard doesnt like .

Annihilate (he likes that word a lot) , destroy (that one too) , cancer ,awful beasts (who burrow into holes), vile animals . What does this language tell us about Bernard ?

Of course when you want to kill and dominate a group of people its a lot easier when you dehumanise them first . Thats why Hitler referred to jews as vermin and used propaganda film which showed first jews and then rats . Referring to fellow human beings in such a way makes them easier to kill ( or destroy/annihilate if you prefer) . A number of years back DUP politician Sammy Wilson also referred to the catholic residents of a north Belfast electoral ward as "5000 sub-human animals" when they voted for someone he didnt like . Quite a few people from that area were then murdered at random by bigoted killers who shared his view .

Bernards language is very familiar , its the language of a blood thirsty religious bigot who hates Palestinians . If they even vote for someone Bernard doesnt like - annihilate destroy / demolish the homes of these vile animals/ awful beasts / cancer . Sounds very familar to me and Bernard certainly isnt the first Berlin resident to consistently refer to fellow members of the human race in such a manner .

Bernard justifies zionist crimes against civilians because they know someone is going to attack or is maybe likely to attack the zionist state and its forces . How is Bernard so sure they knew what was going to happen or who they voted for ? Because theyre all Palestinians / animals /beasts who live in places were they vote for people Bernard doesnt like , which basically makes them ALL legitimate targets for zionist reprisals . They all deserve it .

I think its clear Bernard means the relatives and neighbours of Palestinian fighters deserve all they get too , because they must have known . As do his neighbours who probably voted for someone Bernard doesnt like ( unsurprising theyd vote that way too after seeing the righteous zionist punishment Bernard believes all these vile animals/awful beasts , cancer spreading types who inhabit the refugee camps deserve).

And remeber anyone who so much as throws a stone at an Israeli tank is attacking democracy , freedom and the very way of life all over the world we all take for granted too . And if you dont believe this youre a jew hating quasi nazi , which presumably makes you a vile animal / awful beast / cancer as well .

Why not just liquidate all the camps , just like Shatila etc . That way these vile animals / awful beasts / cancer types (thats human beings to us non zionists) wont have any holes to burrow into . Or vote for someone Bernard doesnt like very much . Or throw stones at tanks .

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Sep 15, 2005 22:36

"Why not just liquidate all the camps "

Because the Arab host nations, where the Palestinians are kept as permenant "refugees" would never permit it, and the UNWR would then be moot.

There's big money and propaganda value in the "refugee camps"

by Barry Thu Sep 15, 2005 23:21

If someone said that about the Zionists use of the holocaust camps to justify its activities theyd be crucified . A repugnant statement .

With a hateful bigotted attitude like that its no surprise muslim youth accross the world are becoming more radicalised by the day .

Heres a special request for all you zionist thieves and your crusader collaborators out there . Dirty Kuffar by Sheik Terra and the Soul Salah crew . Not a bad effort from some British Muslims , catchier than Fiddler on the Roof anyway .

http://www.ratatak.com/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=14

by iosaf Fri Sep 16, 2005 01:38

since many comments to this article are now deleted for breaching the guidelines on holocaust denial, the flow of emotion and taunt, allegation and counter-allegation is not so easy to discern.

No-one can approach the arab-israeli conflict without accepting that propaganda and manipulative opinion abounds on both sides, and that both sides offer a very wide range of solution, or hurt.
______________________________________________________

I suspect that this article written in early august on language issues in Ireland, and Belfast specifically on whether or not modern hebrew as used in Israel may serve as a linguistic regenerative model for Gaeilge, has been diverted into daily trolling and breaches of the holocaust denial rule. [one of the few rules].

Many cultures are attempting to revitalise their languages, on many levels. Gaielge is not the only tongue which has suffered from imperialism, illegalisation or "settler type issues". In a world which now hears an estimate 6000 languages spoken in comparison to 10,000 at the start of the century, linguistic revival is important.

Both revival and slow extinction of langauges are caused by national politics and international trade.

As an example, Catalan which along with many other european tongues developed an overtly nationalist literature towards the end of the nineteenth century (parallel to the Irish gaelic league revival) was then prohibited under the Franco dictatorship in the interest of "a unified spain" and underwent a "hidden period".

We know historically that the same happened to Gaeilge and Welsh. They moved out of schools and churches into homes. The traces of that damage are still to be seen today. Almost every catalan speaks their language, it is the language of university studies and official life, but above a certain age, very few can actually write it correctly.
And it is a difficult language to write. The same phenomona occured with Basque which has not stemmed its decline, and the many other truly "minority" languages. Gaeilge moved from being the spoken vernacular of the majority of the island to the vernacular of a rural minority and a second language of an academic R.I.A. based community, which was hardly itself representative of the mainstream till the turn of the century.

We can quickly tell by reading the translations of early and middle Irish poetry and other writing that contact with the "native" language was being made through a new type of "english literature".

Then the 20th century gave us Peig, O Conaire and many many others, and they became for the Free State in 1922 and thus the Eire state which followed in 1936 the corpus of national literature.

The poems were learnt by rote, often under the sternest duress any christian brother or nun could offer. This was not poetry in a living sense as music and subtle intertwining of meanings for the majority of the people. it was schoolwork.

Not until the late arrival of writers such as nuala mac domhnaill, maire mhac an tsaoi in the Eire state (by then called the republic of Ireland) and the revival of gaeilge which accompanied the internment camps and years of Long Kesh in the northern ireland state did the language begin again to reflect cultural and political reality.

It is now common place to see people use names and surnames in gaeilge, but it was not common place 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. I ruefully recall many ocassions when my name and surname on my passport and official documents caused difficulties and political bias. There are still friends in England who could only ever call me "joseph" in the most english way, and others in dublin who presumed i must be a "republican of that type" for the mac d. It is thus beautiful for me to read now gaeilge names throughout the irish diasporia. They are "our names".... but why?

It is debatable whether or not Gaeilge ever offered the Irish people in any of these revivals I have described briefly the function of unification or economic usefulness which can be seen in the modern hebrew revival and to a lesser extent
catalan. It could be argued rather, that as much as the bilingualism debate in today's catalonia serves to divide the "settlers" Franco brought to work in industry from Galicia and Andalucia in the 60s from those others who still yet resent the fact that castilian spanish is spoken in Barcelona and used by companies that work here. This has indeed been one of the issues most hotly debated in the "catalan/spain statute reform" over the last 3 years.

Modern Hebrew served to form an identity of the state which was religious. Old fashioned communists of the nassarist era throughout europe still understand that concept as "the zionist entity". It honestly was a revival and _modernisation_ of a language which was quite astounding. New vocabulary, a modified alphabet, agreement on pronunciation. Except when one considers that the very linguistic decisions made on those key elements were obviously biased in favour of central European jewish language. But considering the origin of the first wave of migrants to the post WW2 state of Israel that is not surprising. Today's Israel is different. 40% of the population are ethnically arabic. Their vocabulary, accent, intonation and many other idioms owe more to the middle east than the rabbinical scholars of 17th century prague.

So my personal opinion is-

The speakers and writers and listeners of Gaeilge in northern Ireland are also speakers, writers anmd listeners of english. Both the officially termed "mid ulster dialect" and the souths hiberno-english and whatever you call that stuff that comes from the BBC oh yes and Fox.
They are as speakers, writers and listeners no different to any other users of language in history.
Partisan.

Languages serve not only to communicate within communities but also to dilineate unseen boundaries of access between communities.
Those who champion the Israeli modern hebrew language and its revival/creation/sucess really ought have given more thought to the clear associations of that partisanism with certain opinions on the middle east and the injustice the palestinians have suffered.

So this long thread filled with so many comments that the readers don't see now really ought not have been that surprising.

(thats just my personal thought on the matter)

by Bernard: Why the Lies? Sat Sep 17, 2005 16:12

I said:
"you throw around the word Hamas as if you know something about it. I do hope you are aware that the Israeli's helped finance Hamas in it's earlier years. Now the question one should ask oneself, would be: "Why would they do that? Why would they provide money to an organisation, supposedly dedicated to their downfall?"

Any bright Ideas?"

Bernard Cantillion then said:
"Do we need any further proof that the IJ and Hams are only interested in war. A people that have jobs re unlikely to want to get on a bus and go into Tel Aviv and murder Israeli's, so what do Hamas do. They destroy the economy. We will hear a sob story from the IPSC in a few months about how the poor Palestinians who once lived on work in the settlement greenhouses now have no trade. Of course, the IPSC will say that Israelis are preventing it access. Nobody will ever hear that the Palestinians razed the greenhouses to teh ground, so therefore there is nowhere to grow the vegetables.
This is shocking and a disgrace. There is no law and order in Palestine clearly. Buring synagogues, breaking and destroying greenhouses (but the IPSC can comfort itself that it was all to be expected and blame the hardy old Israeli's. Even with the Greenhouses, weren't they paid for by the Peres Foundation, so it was Israeli money. The Palestinians would clearly rather starve than accept taht) and all in the one day."

Completely ignoring my point about Israel's financing of Hamas...... Why would he do that, I wonder?

It is after all an outrageous allegation, which, if true, would call into question the motives of some of those involved in the conflict, an important point-of-consideration, I would have thought.

For example, armed with this info one might begin to look askance at Hamas's "destroy[ing] the economy", as Bernard Cantillion so succinctly put it, in his non-reply to my last post.

Quo bono? Bernard Cantillion, Quo bono??

by Oh Look Sat Sep 17, 2005 16:43

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4246848.stm
excerpt:
"Israeli foreign minister Silvan Shalom has condemned a UK attempt to arrest a former Gaza Strip military commander for alleged war crimes as an "outrage".

Major General Doron Almog escaped detention at Heathrow airport on Sunday after an Israeli official warned him he was facing arrest and should fly home.

Lawyers said an arrest warrant had been issued over allegations he ordered the destruction of civilian homes in Gaza. "

by oh look there too! Sat Sep 17, 2005 19:29

Hamas organised a prayer meeting yesterday on the remains of Netzarim and Nissanit synagogues in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4253536.stm

by TheTroll Sun Sep 18, 2005 05:18

And who was the Zionist commander who ordered a 1 ton bomb dropped on an apartment building to kill/muder 1 guy???

Sounds like a "holocaust" doesn't it??? Entire Palestinian families dying, "collective punishment".

Deny THAT!!!

by Making their own beds Mon Sep 19, 2005 17:27

"And who was the Zionist commander who ordered a 1 ton bomb dropped on an apartment building to kill/muder 1 guy??"

Arabs hate it when you shoot back.
As per usual, arab terrorists surround themselves with women and children and cry crocodile tears when they get hurt or killed. It's n old Arab tactic, and makes "liberals" really upset.

by wow Mon Sep 19, 2005 18:13

That is an obscene and dishonest argument. There is NO justification for bombing apartment blocks.

by Earth calling Israeli apologists Mon Sep 19, 2005 19:14

one could make the case that going to a country where you know they are already pissed off, and makinjg your home, as the 'Settlers' have done means that you deserve what you get, be it a welcome or a suicide bomber. Now I for one wouldn't make that arguement but it's as valid as any made by pro-israeli's that I have seen here

by Noel Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:30

psst Kintama,
I'll let you in on a secret; Hamas wants to kill all the Jews in Israel.
It's shocking I know - I've only just heard.

Anyhoo, the previously validated suicide bombings, which are used to further this aim, tend to target innocents, you know the types - kids, women, the elderly.
Am I going too fast?
These innocents are not your everyday common and garden gun totin' torah bashin' blood matzoh eatin' settler Jew, no sir. They tend to be Jews who's ancestors lived in Israel and their ancestors too.
Now, I'll allow your much vaunted intellect to find the link between Jewish innocents in Israel and Protestant innocents in Northern Ireland.

If you need any further assistance check out www.thebleedingobvious.com

by Earth calling Troll Noel Tue Sep 20, 2005 22:44

would Israel FINANCE Hamas???

Any bright Ideas, Noelly boy

by Noel Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:28

'Why would Israel FINANCE Hamas???
Any bright Ideas, Noelly boy'

When Hamas was a registered charity in the 70s and 80s Israel supported it. A bright idea.
When they began murdering innocent Israelis the funding stopped. A bright adea.

Or perhaps you think Israel wants to fund a murderous nihilist group of Islamic fundamentalists? Not a bright idea.

Please use the internet to educate yourself
before your next half-understood, half-arsed attempt at analysis. A bright idea.

by Browser Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:47

That site does not exist, Noel. It just redirects to a site offering to sell that domain name. So it is now "bleedingobvious" who the dummy is.

by Noel Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:57

'That site does not exist, Noel. It just redirects to a site offering to sell that domain name. So it is now "bleedingobvious" who the dummy is.'

That post is too exquisite on so many levels.

btw Browser, I've got a bridge to sell if you're interested?

by Major Tom Wed Sep 21, 2005 19:47

Or perhaps you think Israel wants to fund a murderous nihilist group of Islamic fundamentalists? Not a bright idea.

definately not a bright idea if you want the 'war' to stop, but then ...................................what if you don't?

by car free day in Israel, Palestine, Belfast - but not Texas or Dublin Thu Sep 22, 2005 14:00

A group known as the "Anarchist Anti-Zionist Enviromental Macho Bicyclist Fashion Police"
(GRUSHKA in Hebrew) has managed to stop traffic in one of Israel's main apartheid roads which serves the West Bank if only for a few hours.

fair play to them.
They are the future no?

report:-
GRUSHKA has decided to mark September 22nd, the day of the first automobile run in the United States (1886) and, coincidentally, the day of the first death of a Palestinian bicycle rider by an Israeli settler (1936), by attempting to block one of Israel's main apartheid roads in the West Bank, Road number 5, which cuts through the municipal areas of Salfit and Nablus in order to connect settlements such as Barkan, Ariel and Tapuach to Israel's center. This is a "settler
only" road that Palestinians cannot use, even though it is actually built on land stolen from them.

As the barricade of the bicycles, built in the early afternoon, began to drag traffic to a halt, a violent escalation between GRUSHKA and angry settlers began. GRUSHKA members, chained to the bicycles by their arms and legs, suffered endless honking, screaming, and some kicking. A few dozen Israeli Border Policemen arrived at the scene, and after having evacuated the angry settlers, they promptly began kicking, pulling, breaking chains and bicycles, and eventually arresting
all GRUSHKA members that blocked the roads.

Unfortunately, all cameras were confiscated, and what little was saved hardly depicts the events of the day. Currently, the GRUSHKA members are all being held at Ofer detention center near Ramallah, and are waiting to be brought before a judge.

"Anarchist Anti-Zionist Enviromental Macho Bicyclist Fashion Police"

by Noel said Sat Oct 01, 2005 14:25

"Please use the internet to educate yourself
before your next half-understood, half-arsed attempt at analysis. A bright idea."

so i did


Israeli denial and indignation at accusation that Hamas is an Israeli tool
http://www.io.com/%7Ejewishwb/iris/archives/608.html


Sharon War Plan Exposed: Hamas Gang Is His Tool

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STE204A.html

Israeli Roots of Hamas are being exposed

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/AND204A.html

how's that for a Bright Idea Noelly-boy, feeling better now?