Public execution for teenagers convicted of rape

by irish citizen Sat Jul 23, 2005 08:31

However, you're confusing a number of issues here. stick with the death penalty. Israel does not have one. Palestine does. So does Cuba.

by shipsea Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:05

Geoff Dolan is right - killing is killing whoever is doing it and for whatever reason. Iran deserves to be internationally isolated for these appalling crimes against humanity. It would be wrong to imagine that they are unique. The US has a nasty track record of executing innocents and mentally challenged people also. Our condemnation should be in equal measure. Israel has an aggressive de facto death penalty which it operates with impunity against anyone it perceives as a challenge to its imperialist occupation of Palestine. Iran's crimes against its own citizens - disgusting as they are - are not a justification for smug superiority anywhere else - and should not be a factor in justifying unilateral invasion or aggression against its innocent citizens by external forces.

by Paul McAndrew Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:33 paul at queer dot ie

Report: Iran Gay Teens Executed
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff

Posted: July 21, 2005 11:00 am ET
(London) Two teenagers have been executed after a religious court found them them guilty of homosexuality according to pro-Democracy groups.

The Iranian Students News Agency reports that the executions took place on July 19 in the northeastern city of Mashhad.

One teen, ISNA says was 18, the other was a minor, believed to be 16 or 17. The organization ran a picture of what it said was the execution on its Web site.

The English language Iran In Focus also reported the executions, saying the teens were hanged in public in the city square. It quotes sources as saying the teens were executed for having sex with another minor but this could not be confirmed. The report does not name the victim. Under Sharia law the victim of a sexual assault must also be executed.

Both news services say that prior to their execution, the teenagers were held in prison for 14 months, severely beaten and given the lash 228 times.

A report of the executions was also carried on the website of the respected democratic opposition movement, The National Council of Resistance Of Iran.

Ruhollah Rezazadeh, the lawyer for the younger teen reportedly had appealed the death sentence but the Supreme Court in Tehran ordered him to be hanged.

Under the Iranian penal code, girls as young as nine and boys as young as 15 can be hanged.

Three other young gay Iranians are reportedly being hunted by police, but they are said to have gone into hiding and cannot be found. If caught, they would also face execution.

The British LGBT rights group OutRage has called for sanctions against Iran. The organization has called for western states to break off diplomatic relations, impose trade sanctions and treat Iran as "a pariah state".

"This is just the latest barbarity by the Islamo-fascists in Iran,” said OutRage spokesperson Peter Tatchell.

"The entire country is a gigantic prison, with Islamic rule sustained by detention without trial, torture and state-sanctioned murder.

"According to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979," said Tatchell.

Iran In Focus reports that members of Iran’s parliament are applauding the court for carrying out the death sentence on the teens.

"These individuals were corrupt. Their sentence was carried out with the approval of the judiciary and it served them right,” the publication quotes Ali Asgari, a member of the Majlis Party Legal Affairs Committee.

At least three men have been sentenced over the past month to death by stoning in Nigeria which also follows Sharia law in several provinces. (story)

In March a gay couple was beheaded in a public execution in Saudi Arabia. (story) The pair had been convicted of killing a blackmailer who had threatened to expose them to authorities. Hundreds of other gays have been rounded up by Saudi authorities in recent months. (story)

©365Gay.com 2005

by love parade Sat Jul 23, 2005 13:46

if its actually true they did commit a gay rape on a young child at knifepoint then they probably had it coming .
A pity Ireland does not have an extradition treaty with Iran for some of our clergy.

by Paul McAndrew Tue Aug 02, 2005 13:41 paul at queer dot ie

August 1, 2005

Opinion / Editorial - Gay Media's Failure to Accurately Report Stories Adds to Growing Islamaphobia and Hatred Towards Islamic World

By Faisal Alam, Founder of Al-Fatiha (LGBTIQ Muslims)

In the wake of the recent London bombings, the Western world has been propelled into another vicious cycle of revenge against Muslims and the Islamic world. While mainstream media around the world have more accurately represented the outpouring of condemnation by Muslim organizations and institutions against the attacks in London, the gay and lesbian media in the U.S. has unfortunately succumbed once again to the false belief that Islam condones acts of violence including suicide bombings, executions of civilians and even the killing of homosexuals.

On July 19, a number of exiled Iranian organizations reported that two teenagers, one aged 18 and the other a minor (who's age is reported to be either 16 or 17) were hanged in Iran, a country that President Bush infamously labeled as part of the "axis of evil." The news of this horrific execution was blasted across gay and lesbian media websites with pictures that depict the final moments of the teenagers as they were escorted to face their inevitable death. On June 20, the largest gay and lesbian political organization in the United States, the Human Rights Campaign issued a press release condeming the execution and calling on Secretary of State Condalezza Rice to condemn the brutal killings in Iran and similar attacks on sexual and gender minorities in other countries.

While the gay and lesbian media in the United States and even the Human Rights Campain jumped quickly to condemn the executions, government officials in Sweden and the Netherlands announced that they would halt any extraditions of gay people to Iran. OutRage, a queer political organization in the UK even went as far as calling for the European Union to institute trade sanctions against Iran for its on-going assault against sexual and gender minorities. While these Western organizations and governments quickly came to the judgement that Iran was displaying a brutal form of oppression, very few people took the time to research the deatails of the case or even consult with experts who deal with such news on a daily basis. In fact it was almost a week later that we began to read more accurate accounts of why the teens were executed from international human rights groups including Amnesty International, t he Human Rights Watch and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission - all of whom have contacts in Iran and ways to confirm news of such incidents from independent sources.

While no one will ever know why these two young men were executed in Iran, what remains clear is that the hysteria surrounding the executions was enormous and only fed to the growing Islamaphobia and hatred towards Muslims and the Islamic world. The fact that the executions occurred in Iran also fed the frenzy of rumors that Iran will be the next target in the so-called "War on Terror." While it may not seem that the execution of two young men propogates the notion that Iran is part of the "axis of evil" one must only look at the lack of outrage expressed at the recent news of three men who were sentenced to be stoned to death in Nigeria for their supposed "homosexuality." Unfortunately the graphic pictures that accompanied&nbs p;the news from Iran only added fuel to the fire that is burning around the world in the minds of those that continue to perceive Islam as a religion of violence and terror. Furthermore, the lack of investigation into the case before a world-wide call to action was proclaimed will probably only perpetuate the cycle of violence against sexual and gender minorities in countries like Iran.

There are two lessons that should be learned from this tragic case:

1) The first is that it is imperative for Western organizations, queer and non-queer, to build connections with progressive NGOs and other groups on the ground in countries like Iran. While many feminist groups and HIV/AIDS organizations have done a tremendous job in reaching out to sister organizations around the world, queer groups in the West have done very little to help become part of the growing international queer movement. Apart from efforts of organizations like Amnesty International and its LGBT program, the International Gay and Lesbsian Human Rights Commission, the Astraea Foundation and the Human Rights Watch in the United States, very little effort has been made to educate Western LGBT communities about the real and accurate situation faced by sexual and gender minorities abroad and how to support them in ways that will not cause further backlash. By creating a movement of solidarity, we can begin to more accurately report news and accounts of human rights abuses, while also calling upon our own communities to take action and speak out against such abuses - but only when the time is right and when it is in the best interest of those that we seek to help. Otherwise we will fail to accomplish our real objective - to help alleviate the suffering of queer people in countries like Iran. In fact our actions if not conducted properly may very well add to the targeted arrests of gay men and the subsequent torture and death that they may face, in a country such as Iran.

2) Secondly, we must begin to view our gay and lesbian liberation movement through a broader lens of social justice and human rights. While we seek to condemn the executions of gay teens in Iran, we must remember that our own country (the United States) is one of only five in the entire world that executes juvenile offenders. In fact it was only in March 2005 that the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the death penalty could not be applied to juveniles who committed crimes when they were under the age of 18. Since 2000, countries that have been known to have executed juvenile offenders include China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Pakistan and the United States. 13 of these 21 executions of young people have occurred in the United States. While other governments in the Western world continue to move toward a consensus that the death penalty is an inhumane form of punishment - no matter what the crime - the United States refuses to outlaw capital punishment. In 2004, China, Iran, the United States, and Vietnam accounted for 97% of the executions recorded by Amnesty International. While activists in the United States are quick to condemn the executions of people in the Islamic world, we refuse to look at the issue of capital punishment as it applies to all people - regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. The outlawing of capital punishment is not a "gay" issue - but it is a matter of social justice and human rights.

In a time when Islamaphobia flourishes in Europe and the United States, it is imperative for the gay and lesbian media to look beyond its Western "pink" glasses. We must not feed into the hysteria surrounding the so-called "war on terrorism," and the assault on law-abiding Muslims. Nor must we let our anger and outrage against regimes like those in Iran interfere with our work to strategically condemn human rights abuses against sexual and gender minorities, in consultation with individuals who's lives will be affected by our actions.

Gay and lesbian media, together with LGBT activists must work together with international human rights organizations that have great experience in dealing with news of horrific human rights abuses. Together, with building connections and supporting LGBT organizations abroad, we can continue our work to build a truly international queer movement for equality and liberation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Faisal Alam is a queer Muslim activist of Pakistani descent. As the founder of Al-Fatiha, Faisal has represented the LGBT Muslim community at national and international conferences and forums, speaking out about the many challenges facing queer Muslims around the world. Faisal's professional work has included HIV/AIDS education and prevention, LGBT political organizing, and women's reproductive rights. Faisal currently resides in Atlanta, GA where he continues his social justice work to build a world of peace, love and justice.

by Frank Bough Tue Aug 02, 2005 13:45

I've never understood the need to subdivide human rights into special interest groups. Gay or not, surely a human is still a human and has human rights?

by Paul McAndrew Wed Aug 03, 2005 17:07 paul at queer dot ie

In Depth
Full Story Behind 'Iran Gay Hangings' Mired In Controversy
by Rex Wockner 365Gay.com Editor-At-Large

Posted: August 3, 2005 12:01 am ET

The two male teenagers hanged in Mashad, Iran, July 19 were executed not for having sex with each other, as has been reported, but for raping a 13-year-old boy, Human Rights Watch is claiming.

The New York Times and the Times of London separately reported the same thing.

Mahmoud Asgari, 18, and Ayaz Marhoni, 19, allegedly raped the boy at least 14 months prior to their executions, meaning at least one, and perhaps both, of them were minors at the time.

According to Scott Long, director of HRW's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Rights Project: "On the morning of July 19 -- that is, just before the executions -- a long article in Quds, a Farsi daily published in Mashad, described the case. It is clearly identified there as a rape case, with a lengthy interview with the father of the 13-year-old apparent victim. The account there is that the case dates back two years, that the boy in question was seized outside a shopping area by the two boys ultimately convicted, who took him to a deserted area where five other boys were also waiting. (It's not clear what happened to the five other members of what is described as a gang.) He was gang-raped at knifepoint, according to his father's account, which is supported by three passersby who interrupted the act. Passersby were attacked with knives and had their cars vandalized."

It also now seems that an article from the Iranian Students News Agency, translated and circulated by the London gay group OutRage!, was not the first article about this case, as OutRage! believed, and may not have been translated correctly.

OutRage! had reported that the ISNA article said the boys were executed for consensual gay sex. But HRW says the headline and the first sentence of the article make it clear they were hanged for "sodomy by coercion" ("lavat beh onf"). "Lavat beh onf," HRW said, is an archaic phrase that is not the normal way to refer to rape.

"Ultimately," said HRW's Long, "one has to ask what is the basis for believing that the boys were tried for consensual sodomy. It boils down to an English-language article on the Iran Focus Web site having made no mention of the rape charge. There is no other substantial evidence."

OutRage! continues to disagree. (Historically, both OutRage! and Human Rights Watch have proven to be reliable sources.)

"The ISNA report seen by our contacts in Iran makes no mention of rape or of a 13-year-old boy. It states they were hung for homosexual acts," OutRage! leader Peter Tatchell said this week. "OutRage!'s sources for our reportage of this story include clandestine gay and lesbian activists inside Iran, members of the democratic and left Iranian opposition, and the Web sites of government-sanctioned news agencies in Iran.

"We work with many exiled gay Iranians in London," Tatchell said. "They confirm that smears and torture against gay people are routine in Iran. Whenever the regime wants to deflect criticism, it trumps up charges of alcoholism, adultery, rape and drug abuse against the victims of its brutality.

"OutRage! is aware of other cases in the region where a false claim of rape has been used by parents to spare a family the shame of having a gay son and to save him from imprisonment and/or execution."

Iran's Shariah-law capital offenses include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, serious drug trafficking, repeated sodomy, adultery, prostitution, treason and espionage, according to Agence France-Presse.

Concern In Europe, U.S..

Meanwhile, the European Union Presidency, currently held by the United Kingdom, has denounced the executions.

"The European Union wishes to convey its deep concern over reports of a public execution of two youths in Mashad on 19 July 2005 despite the fact that one of the youths, Mahmoud Asqary, was aged under 18 at both the time of the crime and the execution," the Presidency said.

"The EU recalls its long-held position that capital punishment may not, in any circumstances, be imposed on persons below 18 years of age at the time of the commission of their crime. Such a punishment is in direct contravention of Iran's obligations under the ICCPR [International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights] and also the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child."

In the U.S., three members of the U.S. House of Representatives have written to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice demanding she get to the bottom of the story.

"We write to express our concerns over the recent execution of two gay teenagers in northeastern Iran," said U.S. Reps. Barney Frank, D-Mass., Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., and Tom Lantos, D-Calif. "The exact details of the case remain unclear, and because the conflicting reports about the nature of the charges against the two boys make it difficult to react appropriately, we urge the State Department to do everything it can to clarify the circumstances of this case.

"Initial reports were that the 16-year-old and 18-year-old boys ... were punished for homosexual activity with each other," the congressmen said. "In other reports, the Iranian authorities claim the teenagers were accused of raping a 13-year-old boy. Some human rights groups suspect that this charge may have been trumped up as an excuse for the brutal treatment of gay people and to undermine public sympathy for the boys."

The representatives urged Rice to investigate and clarify the facts surrounding the execution of the two teens, "including whether the charges and the conviction were due to their homosexuality, and if they were, [to] issue a strong condemnation of this brutal killing."

They also urged Rice to "condemn Iran for its national policy of persecution of its citizens based on sexual orientation."

Back in Europe, the Netherlands' Immigration and Naturalization Office announced July 28 that it will no longer expel illegal Iranian immigrants who are gay, pending completion of a Ministry of Foreign Affairs study on the situation of gays in Iran.

Gay Life In Iran

Is gay life in Iran as dire as some reports on this case suggest?

According to a new interview with the publishers of the Iranian gay magazine MAHA conducted by the Web site GayRussia.ru, it is not.

The magazine is distributed from inside Iran via e-mail in PDF format. (If it were published on the Web or in traditional magazine format, it likely would be blocked or banned by the government.) The magazine has 600 subscribers.

"After eight months of hard work, eight issues and four supplements have appeared, covering issues such as gays and family, depression among GLBT, a report about lesbians in Iran, etc.," the publishers wrote in the e-mail interview. "MAHA also publishes a separate supplement for gay aid and to help GLBT to find a friend. Today MAHA has two editors, one gay and one lesbian, and MAHA's readers are all over the country and even some Iranian GLBT in exile."

The publishers said gays are no longer routinely persecuted in Iran.

"The regime does not systematically persecute gays anymore, there are still some gay Web sites, there are some parks and cinemas where everyone knows that these places are meeting places for gays," they wrote. "Furthermore it is legal in Iran that a transsexual applies for sex change and it is fully accepted by the government.

"There are some media which sometimes -- not often -- write about such issues. Having said that, the Islamic law, according to which gay punishment is death, is still in force, but it is thought [to be] not much followed by the regime nowadays.

"Thanks to the Internet and contact with the international community, people get the info, and Iran society has changed a lot, and support for GLBT rights is growing in Iran, though we still have a long way to go," the publishers said. "On the whole, we are optimistic about the future as Iran's situation cannot continue [as is] and people are pushing for reforms and changes."

©365Gay.com 2005

by mirage Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:28

Protest at Iranian Embassy on Thursday 11th August
6:30pm to 8pm

Assemble 6:15pm at Blackrock DART Station

(Embassy located at 72 Mount Merrion Avenue, Blackrock)
Protest against Torture and Execution of Children in Iran (August 11, Blackrock, Co. Dublin)


Torture and Execution of Children is Child Abuse
_____________________

Protest at Iranian Embassy on Thursday 11th August
6:30pm to 8pm

Assemble 6:15pm at Blackrock DART Station

(Embassy located at 72 Mount Merrion Avenue, Blackrock)

by Al Mon Aug 08, 2005 14:44

If these men were hung for raping a 13 year old boy then Im afraid I have no sympathy for them. If these are trump up charges then this is murder plain and simple however I have learnt over the years to be very suspicious of newspaper articles and group media releases. They very often put completely different spins on facts purely to suit themselves and turn hear-say and gossip into facts.

As a general rule Im not in favour of death penalties however I am in favour of tough laws. To me, a paedophile or rapist simple cannot be allowed to circulate. Now I have never been raped nor have I personally known a victim however as a father I must, above all else, put the welfare of my own child ahead of all others. In order to do this sometimes fire must be fought with fire. Not everything can be cured with an hour on the doctors couch and a pat on the head.

by mirage Tue Aug 09, 2005 16:15

While I appreciate your feelings - this is murder

by R. Isible Tue Aug 09, 2005 18:03

It's interesting that these articles about gay rights in Iran (which surely have been absent for a long time) are now appearing just when the Bush2 administration are trying to build the case for attacking Iran.

In a similar way in which it was claimed that the bombing of Afghanistan was going to result in the liberation of women (and instead has worsened their position if anything) it would be intelligent for us to be suspicious of the coincidental alignment of this information with the move to set Iran up for attack.

by Shipsea Tue Aug 09, 2005 20:27

For years before the war on Afghanistan, atrocities against women by the Taliban were repeatedly brought to the attention of the US, UN, UK etc. During that period attempts were being made by the US to negotiate with the Taliban the laying of an oil pipeline. All of the protests about abuses of women were politely and effectively stifled. As most people know, the oil industry's talks with the Taliban failed. After 9/11 it was alleged by the US that Afghanistan could justifiably be invaded. Part of the rationale for doing so was the appalling treatment of women. No mention was made of the plan to lay a pipeline. It is is now in place to the immense financial advantage of US oil barons - Bush's primary backers. The women are worse off and nobody gives a ****; Osama bin Laden is still at large and the drug industry is stronger than ever. Let's hope the gay community is alert to the same sort of exploitation of their suffering in Iran.

by Al Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:26

but was it rape or not? Its an important point thats need clarifying

by shipsea Fri Aug 12, 2005 16:29

Your point being that it would be OK to execute teenagers and help justify war if so?

It doesnt seem there is reliable information either way. What is of concern, surely, in the absence of proper evidence is the way these events are being used by potential war mongers who, if they had their way, would end up killing thousands more innocent Iranian teenage victims every bit as ruthlessly as may have been the case here - maybe even more so. Others of them would no doubt end up in other Abu Ghraibs subjected to sexual abuse and other forms of torture. If the Western Press were really concerned with abuses of the gay community and execution of people accused of gay rape, maybe they should start with an analysis of gay people imprisoned in the God Fearing, Death-Penalty-Loving, US of A.

by Al Fri Aug 12, 2005 17:28

I fail to see your point shipsea, how can the reason for the hanging not be important?

Its usual practice that you turn a perfectly reasonable question around and attempt to make me look like a villian of some sort.

There is a world of difference between being punished for your sexuality and being punished for commiting a terrible crime and if you bothered to read my earlier posts you would realise i disagree with the death penalty but that would stand in the way of your one person rampage.

BTW, arent you the one calling for special treatment based on sexuality? Dont all inmates on death row deserve the same treatment?

by Kyle Fri Aug 12, 2005 17:45

That's typical of Al. He is inclined to play "good cop /bad cop". Underneath the facade he is quite reactionary.

by Al Fri Aug 12, 2005 17:54

Actually Kyle I dont consider myself to be a bad cop at all. However seeing as you made the comment would you care to prove it? Where have I been the bad cop? Was it by stating on the 8th August that I dont like the death penalty but cannot ignore my primary responsibility as a parent? Or perhaps when I stated that all people deserve the same treatement regardless of sexuality? Please, where was I a 'bad cop'.

While your at it perhaps you would care to explain your own position. Do you think sexuality should allow for special treatment? Do you feel that raping a young child is a minor offence? Where is your primary sympathy? With the child or the rapist?

by Kyle Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:07

Primarily I am opposed to the death penalty. You should not try to misrepresent my position. My first sympathy is with the child.
But two wrongs do not make a right. You are being contradictory by saying you are opposed to the death penalty and then trying to justify it in what is admittedly an extreme, or "hard" case.

by Al Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:12

Again I ask for proof, where do I justify the death penalty? Your puting words in my mouth instead of actually quoting anything I have said.
My bone of contention is the fact that sexuality is being made the primary arguement here, I am merely stating that sexuality is not relevent due to the fact that all criminals deserve equal treatment. Why only look at homosexual inmates in the US? I know thats not your comment but thats the question I am asking.

My comments are in defence of tough laws and penalities without the death penalty.

by Helper Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:25

"If these men were hung for raping a 13 year old boy then Im afraid I have no sympathy for them."

by Al Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:36

I have no sympathy for them being punished if, and I am still trying to obtain verification, they raped a 13 year old. Am I wrong? Should I feel pity for child rapists? I am sorry but putting myself in the parents shoes, I would want vengeance, not a nice thing I know but its human emotion. BTW, in that same post I stated I dont agree with the death penalty.

You can call me Noel if you want, I am beyond caring about that paranoid crap. However it will confuse who you are actually talking about. What other names should I call you?

BTW, Why is it so many people post purely against me and not about the topic at hand? Sometimes I think I should just blindly agee and see what happens.

by mmmm Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:39

just because he has no symapthy for them doent mean he supports the death penalty . At the end of the day I oppose it primarily on the grounds that innocent people invariably get done in . But if 2 paedophile rapists who threatened to murder a child with a knife end up dangling from a rope thats just tough shit in my opinion . No sympathy whatsoever .

Im sure theres plenty of other cases around the world worth highlighting instead of this particular one . Gay martyrs they aint .

by Fascinated Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:42

You have the same aversion to apostrophes as Al and Noel.
Fascinating

by Paul T Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:46

Time for regime change in Iran.... at least we will be able to count on George Bush.

by Al Fri Aug 12, 2005 18:55

You know, spouses that cheat will usually be very suspicious of their partners for no reason. I wonder if Fascinated and the rest are developing the same problem? Seeing me in so many other posters. Of course it could just be an attempt to make out I am alone in my opinions.

MMmmmm is right however, that is exactly why I am against the death penalty. No going back and no retrials.

by mmmm Fri Aug 12, 2005 19:00

having read many of Noels hate filled posts against Muslims I can assure you I am not him/it . Nor am I Al who has identified himself as a Fianna Fail voter which Id happily cut my own gonads off with a rusty spoon before dong likewise , never mind joining the guards .

Its simply that like most people I have no sympathy when violent paedophile rapists come to a sticky end and Im amazed people are actually organising protests on their behalf . These 2 scumbags are no different to the scum that raped that little girl in Belfast last week except they prefer little boys .

Im sure a wide cross section of opinion in this country would agree with me that while the death penalty itself may be objectionable this particular case evokes no sympathy , except it seems from those attempting to make out these child rapists are gay martyrs .

heres some apostrophes etc to calm your paranoia .,.,,,,....;,,,.

by Noel Fri Aug 12, 2005 20:10

This may further confuse the apostrophe spotters, but there's more than one Noel posting on this site.
One Noel may have an aversion to Muslims.
Another may not. Another may despise Islamists and be pro-Israel.
I'm the latter Noel.

As for this thread - it appears a heinous crime has been committed by these two and they've paid the ultimate price for it.
The death penalty may be wrong, but their crime was despicable and they are dreadful choices as poster boys for gay rights.

by Al Fri Aug 12, 2005 20:50

There is also more than one 'Al', theres me and then theres one that posts comments only 1 line long which usually consists of telling people to fuck off or go fuck themselves, etc, etc. Just to clarify, where this imposter has posted I generally post using the name 'Store street Al' to distance myself from such antics.

by Shipsea Fri Aug 12, 2005 22:30

I didnt say the question of these teenagers guilt or innocence was unimportant - of course it is. No humane person could possibly argue otherwise. If guilty, these other children (and thats what they are) should have had appropriate justice - which I dont believe should have been death.

HOWEVER, My point was WE DONT KNOW THE TRUTH. And in the absence of knowledge of that truth we should, separate point completely, be very wary that this whole issue isnt being deployed as part of a propaganda war against Iran for the purpose of softening likely objectors up for war. Its a reasonable bet that many gay people will be on the more liberal/left side of things not least because of thier insight into and experience of society's intolerance. If they are galvanised to oppose a regime, the crude thinking would go, then thats one more lefty group neutered. Its a patronising approach to the issue and to gay's (not mine) but exactly the sort of thing that pro war propagandists put a lot of effort into. The situation with women in Afghanistan was used, ultimately, to blind people to the killing/murder of many thousands of the very same women the US discovered it was belatedly 'concerned' about. There's no question that a lot of ordinarily fair-minded American women were seduced/influenced by this argument. I do think you have missed my point, Al. I'm not being nasty.

by Tony t Fri Aug 12, 2005 22:36

Of course they should have been executed - life for a life - life in this case being that of the young lady in question who's life is irreversibly destroyed - i couldn't give a rats ass if they were injected, hung from the walls of the city or stoned to death with marshmallows - it will be a certain detterent to any would be rapist. Maybe if that was the case in this country so many of our young women could walk the streets...

being PC is all well and good... bloody do gooders.

by mmmm Fri Aug 12, 2005 22:50

it didnt deter those 2 , thats for sure .( although chances are theywont do it again)

Death penalty isnt a good idea but this case simply isnt worth protesting over .

by Al Sat Aug 13, 2005 01:49

I see what is being said here but I must state that my dislike of the death penalty is based on there being no going back if new evidence points the finger in a new direction or as has happened in the past, people are framed.

Also, when considering how best to punish someone I always think of Brady of the Moor's murderers. Life imprisonment was such a punishment hat he would gladly accept lethal injection.

that may not be so much justice as revenge but Im afriad I can find no sympathy for those that prey on and hurt children. I simple cant.

I also see and agree with your comments about propaganda however dont you think that this thread proves that people are very quick to believe propaganda. I mean, theres so many people that will believe whatever is fed to them rather than making even the most basic attempt to research a subject. Those same people that will scream and rant about a subject without any research or proof.

I mean seriously, those attempting propaganda didnt even need to change the reason for their hanging, the fact that it took place was enough. the spin or wiping out the crime they did commit just turned even more people against them.

by Shipsea Sun Aug 14, 2005 15:58

...and that is what has exercised people. If it is true they did not, there would clearly be justification for seeing this as the villification and murder of young gay people. People are entitled to express concern about that possibility, are they not? Three people have died in tragic, violent and repulsive circumstances and from your own comments it seems you have firmly decided that the teenagers must be guilty as charged. In the same way, you too are expressing your concern at another possibility - no less or more of a jumping to conclusions, I think?

by Al Sun Aug 14, 2005 18:10

Actually shipsea Im the only one here that at any point made an issue of their crime and your response was 'who cares?'. I was the one attempting to verify if they had commited the crime and my comments sepcifically ensured that it was on the basis that they had commited the crime. At no point, and I made this clear, did I blindly presume guilt.

by Shipsea Sun Aug 14, 2005 20:15

You're right, you never did say you believed the teenagers were innocent or guilty - I had mixed up someone elses comments with yours. I'm sorry for that. I still dont think, though that those who have been defending the executed teenagers have done anything other than demand explanations for the truth of what happened while pointing out the motives that might exist for misrepresenting their alleged crime. The problem is the Iranian state is not being open with the facts. If people are to be executed there should be a very clear and open explanation for why, to say the least. I just think youre pointing the finger of blame (or criticism) at the wrong people? Its the lack of information from the Iranian state that is creating the confusion and acrimony. I'm not attacking you here, just trying to discuss it! Chill!

by Al Mon Aug 15, 2005 03:42

But are the Iranians being secretive or is it common knowledge what they did or didnt do in Iran? we are so far removed from Iran that we rely on western papers for information as Iran is secretive and distrusftul of the western world. not just with this but with everything.

Therefore we have been left in a situation where people are running around swearing blind that they did nothing wrong. Thats why I am attacking these people, they are creating heroes out of 2 men that may have commited the most heinous crime imaginable without even have a seconds thought about the possibility that there is a poor child in Iran that will probable be traumaticed for life as a result of these 2, a child that has had his/her innocence destroyed and will probable never be able to live a full life again.

While I am not blind to human rights for criminals, my priorities are and always will be with the victims.

by Shipsea Mon Aug 15, 2005 05:48

Forgot to say last time - you said I had a 'who cares' attitude towards the alleged victim' . I quote from an earlier comment above

'I didnt say the question of these teenagers guilt or innocence was unimportant - of course it is. No humane person could possibly argue otherwise.'

To respond to your last point, I dont agree that the interests of justice are best servied by putting unequal emphasis on the rights of one person over another. You clearly admit you're doing that. If you give priority to the 'victim' then he or she always has the advantage. If you think about it, what you are saying is that people are guilty until proven innocent. We would all be at the mercy of malicious allegations and clearly thats what a lot of people believe has happened to these gay teenagers. Surely our concern should be in equal measure - both for the possiblity that a child was raped in violent and traumatising circumstances and, conversely, for the possibility that these other children were judicially murdered for being gay. Both of these possibilites are terrible. You are more concerned with the alleged vicitim while others are more concerned with the plight of the alleged rapists.

by AL Mon Aug 15, 2005 15:04

Yes I am more concerned with the victim. I wont apologise for that. However I didnt say guilty until proven innocent, courts and investigations decide that.

The guilty party, and for this purpose we will assume they are guilty, made their own circumstances. The victim did not, the guilty caused pain and suffering to an innocent person that meant them no ill will. the victim would rather the incident never took place. Now, in Ireland we dont have the death penalty however people know that if they commit murder they will go to jail. So what exactly is the reasoning for feeling pity when a person does go to jail for murder? They knew the consequences of their actions.

I find it worrying that peoples first reaction to a violent crime is concern for the perpetrator. I wonder if this would still be the story if it was your child, mother, sister or wife that was raped. How about if your husband was kidnapped, tortured and killed for money? Is your priority still those that performed the horrendous, sick act?

Everyday I see people commit crimes, some for drugs some for profit and others purely because they get pleasure out of hurting other people. Why do you think I should have pity on a person that hurts someone smaller than themselves or unable to defend themselves purely for twisted pleasure? I certainly dont feelpity for a paedophile. I feel pity for the child. I cannot see how any person can believe that my feelings should be split equally.

by Jaz Mon Aug 22, 2005 22:03

A last minute appeal was lodged by the lawyer for one of the boys because he was one week away from reaching the legal age for execution in Iran. The legal age for execution for males in Iran is 15! The boys had admited to being lovers under torture and both has received 288 lashes and served 14 months in prison! Do the math. It looks like they executed the victim as well!

by Al Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:34

Jez is so typical of the people Im talking about.

Jez, you are aware that there was a third person involved, arent you? You are aware that these 2 'victims' as you call them, raped that third person, arent you? You are aware that your 'victims' commited a horrendous act on an innocent person, arent you?

But silly me, why let something like justice and innocent people get in the way off good auld government bashing. Lets make martyrs out of rapists, good plan Jez.

by Amused Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:40

"But silly me, why let something like justice and innocent people get in the way off good auld government bashing. Lets make martyrs out of rapists, good plan Jez."

Good ol' Al supports the Islamic Government of Iran. Any Government will do? Al would you have been a loyal supporter of the Taliban? Just obeying orders - is that it Al?

by Al Tue Aug 23, 2005 13:46

This coming from a person that opening supported Saddam Hussein. Which you surely must do considering you objected to the US invasion.

This must lead to the fact that you and not I supported the Taliban as it was you not I that spoke out against the invasion.

Of course the fact that I wont use rapists as a shining example of the down trodden automatically means I support the Iran government. If you want a myrter try picking someone thats actually down trodden and not a sick criminal.

by Even more amused Tue Aug 23, 2005 17:07

"This coming from a person that opening supported Saddam Hussein. Which you surely must do considering you objected to the US invasion."

Opposition to the invasion of Iraq didn't equate to support for Saddam. Jaysus Al, are you doing your best to reinforce the stereotype of the dumb cop. I suppose Robin Cook, Clare Short, Chirac, Schroder etc, etc were all cheerleaders for Saddam.

"This must lead to the fact that you and not I supported the Taliban as it was you not I that spoke out against the invasion."

Again I don't understand this unless of course you are an avid viewer of Fox TV, which would explain a lot. You and they are about the only ones who equate the Taliban and Saddam.

"Of course the fact that I wont use rapists as a shining example of the down trodden automatically means I support the Iran government. If you want a myrter try picking someone thats actually down trodden and not a sick criminal."

It was you who complained about government bashing (in this context the Iranian government). Store Street Al as you like to call yourself I've given you the benefit of the doubt up until now and have found some of the retorts to you mindless but I'm coming around to the point of view that you are nothing but a troll getting your jollies pretending to be a garda.

by Shipsea Tue Aug 23, 2005 18:47

...that the alleged victim is just that - an ALLEGED victim. We do not know that he was actually raped at all! Do you get this point? The two children who were executed may well not have committed any crime. There is no evidence of any kind to prove that they did and they only confessed under extreme, violent physical torture. That is not a reliable confession. After 288 lashes Id agree to anything too. Why are you so convinced of their guilt? This point has been made over and over and you still dont seem to understand it!
There is a strong possibility that these two teenagers children were murdered - not executed.
You seem to think that just because someone makes an accusation of rape it must automatically be true. Supposed you were wrongly accused of rape and executed? Youd be the victim then, wouldnt you! Youd be demanding justice for yourself all the way to the hangman's rope. Suppose you encountered a legal justice system that said to you, 'Sorry, mate, youre the criminal and he's the victim so he gets preferential treatment'. This is what you are advocating. Are you really a garda? It's horrifying to think of it...

by Clark Clydestone Sat Jan 21, 2006 05:51 Patricksonengine at yahoo dot com

Barbarism is relative. Every war kills thousands of people and all sanctioned by society. Now, if someone is hung for rape, I'll bet that person will not do it again.
Homosexual rape is barbarian. If there are degrees, this would be ilk.
We in the West mistake freedom for license and so everything goes. While traveling in the Middle East, I have never been accosted or robbed. I can't say the same for my country, the US. Hence, I travel armed always.
Kindness many times does not change bad behavior and for those there is execution. I believe in it and support it, if the act warrants it.

CC