Photos of Todays Vigil in Solidarity w. Victims of 'War on Terror' in London, Iraq, Afghanistan . .

by Michael Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:28

Thanks for your response Paul.

Before I say any more, in less that two hours time the country will stand silent for the 70 or so that died in London. This is a great and noble gesture.

However, do you find it sickening, that the country while mourning these dead will also not mourn the 600,000 that have died in Iraq and the countless more in Afganistan and other places? I do not recall a second of silence in our country for these dead, despite the fact that the death toll in Iraq, alone, is equivalent to 8,571 bombings in London. Thats equivalent to 21/2 bombings in London EVERY day for the last TEN YEARS.

Again I ask (knowing that you have already answered!!) are “our” lives somehow more valuable than “theirs”?

Standing in solidarity with the dead people in London and the dead people in Iraq would hopefully send out a message to the Muslim (especially the fundamentalist) world that we do indeed love and value their lives every bit as much as we love and value our own.

Best regards.

by Paul Moloney Wed Jul 13, 2005 17:22 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com

> Are "our" lives somehow more valuable
> than "theirs"?

No, which is why I supported the liberation as opposed to the slow torture carried out under Clinton, which didn't affect Hussein's reign at all.

As you point out, 500,000 died under Western sanctions. (The 100,000 figure during the invasion is _highly_ disputed) Oddly enough, I have to yet to hear a single "Clinton = Hitler" slogan.

(Note: I do not believe Clinton is Hitler, neither do I believe Bush is Hitler. In fact, I found Clinton preferable, despite the above figures. Whether this makes me a hypocrite or not, I'll leave up to you.)

For heaven's sakes, the same people who were against the invasion, were also against the sanctions and even against the no-fly zones imposed to defend the Kurdish regions in the north. Check out the World Tribunal on Iraq page at http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/06/1749786.php, which condemns the no-fly zones with no mention of with the Kuwait invasion _or_ the Kurdish regions! I find nothing progressive about isolationism and the wishful thinking for a sudden revolution to overthrow Saddam that replaced any desire for an actual, if imperfect, solution.

This does not mean I like Bush. This does not mean I cheer on American soldiers as they have performed their task in an inept and often inhumane manner. But in the words of an Iraqi woman, until the Nelson Mandella International Freedom Brigade comes along to liberate Iraq, I'll take anything.

> As mentioned earlier, while mourning the
> tragic deaths of the people in London,
> we are trying to highlight the root causes
> of these deaths

Islamist terrorism and tacit support by misguided so-called "progressives"? Of course, Iraq is the cause of all this terrorism, including attacks in United States, Britain, France, Spain, Pakistan, Kenya, Tanzania,
India, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Tunisia, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and North Osetia, all counties which invaded Iraq. Oh no, wait, they didn't. Maybe there's another explanation. Maybe Yemen is against the Kyoto protocol.

P.

by Michael Wed Jul 13, 2005 13:41

I take your points Paul.

But I think this still was a “solidarity with London victims” march. Yes I think the organizers would have been happy for anyone to join the march. But no, I don’t think posters supporting the war and massacre of 100,000 of people in Iraq (never mind the 500,000 before that due to Western imposed sanctions) would not have been welcomed.

As mentioned earlier, while mourning the tragic deaths of the people in London, we are trying to highlight the root causes of these deaths, so that more deaths on “our” side will not happen again and so that more deaths (x 20,000)) will not happen on “their” side.

On Thursday the country will stand silent for 2 minutes to remember the 70 dead in London. A great and noble gesture.
But it sickens me that the country will also not stand silent for the hundreds and hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq & Afgansistan and elsewhere.

Are “our” lives somehow more valuable than “theirs”?

Best regards.

by Paul Moloney Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:20 paul_moloney at hotmail dot com http://oceanclub.blogspot.com

Nice try. Tell me, would the organisers have been happy for anyone who diverged from their thinking on the war in Iraq to be on the march? Would they have tolerated posters with "Support the liberation" or "Give fascism the finger"?

If they would, fair play, but this march sounds like it was from the Galloway school of sympathy:

"Hello recently bereaved families. If everyone had listened to me your husband/wife/sibling/child might not now be scattered across parts of London. That is why I am the fucking nuts."


P.

by Seamus Tue Jul 12, 2005 13:33

Is the irony of the London bombings and the meaningless rethoric from Blair and Bertie about hunting down the culprits lost on anyone? They seem to be forgetting that when the British planted bombs in (Dublin) Baile Atha Cliath and Muinechain and slaughtered 34 Irish citizens they were both indifferent and deliberately hindered efforts to catch those responsible, and to this daythey continue so!! SHAME on the hyprocrite Blairand sucessive "irish" governments.
Justice for the forgotten.

by txt from Irish Times Tue Jul 12, 2005 13:18

12:14:16pm
Government calls for two-minute silence
across State on Thursday, one week
after London Bomb attacks

by redjade Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:18

'This demonstration is a biased, distorted political grandstand.'

I'm sure you would have said the same about the March 2004 Dublin Solidarity with Madrid vigil/protest, right?

'but answer it. And leave it out the rhetoric from Galloway, Ali, and the rest of the crew...'

Maybe Gary Younge is part your 'crew' I'm not sure what crew you mean, but I like his Monday Op/Ed piece in the Guardian....

Blair's blowback
by Gary Younge
''The space to mourn these losses must be respected.
The demand that we abandon rational thought, contextual
analysis and critical appraisal of why this happened
and what we can do to limit the chances that
it will happen again, should not. To explain
is not to excuse; to criticise is not to capitulate.''

• excellent essay + worth reading:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1525754,00.html

--
furthermore, if was the Neo-Cons/Neo-Con Wannabes and Murdoch that were first to politicise 7/7...
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=70728

by Michael Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:01

The Left & Humanitarian organizations groan in the face of any death. Wether it be the 70 people in London, the 100,000 in Iraq from war, the 500,000 in Iraq from the sanctions, the 11,000,000 that die every year from needless poverty etc. etc. etc.

It would have been far easier for people to go basking in the sun yesterday afternoon like the 99.99% of the rest of the population. Fair play to everyone who made it there.

The point we are trying to make is that one of the main root causes of terrorism is the West’s reign of terror on the Islamic world. It would be incredibly naieve to think that they are going to take this lying down. All you hear in the media is cry’s to catch the terrorists, step up security measures, etc. etc. You will hear very, very little on why this is happening in the first place and what can be done to stop the cause of terrorism.

We deeply mourne the death of the people in London. But unless something is done about the cause, there will be more and more and more bombings. More and more deaths. This is the point we are trying to make. We are trying to prevent the death of thousands of more people - which inevitably will happen.

Here is a good piece to read by Robin Cook in the Guardian entitled:-

The struggle against terrorism cannot be won by military means

The G8 must seize the opportunity to address the wider issues at the root of such atrocities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html

From the article:-

"And in the privacy of their (the G8) extensive suites, yesterday's atrocities should prompt heart-searching among some of those present. President Bush is given to justifying the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that by fighting terrorism abroad, it protects the west from having to fight terrorists at home. Whatever else can be said in defence of the war in Iraq today, it cannot be claimed that it has protected us from terrorism on our soil."

Best regards,

Michael.

by Michael Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:54

Good piece redjade. I do not have all the answers as to the difference in numbers at the London vs Madrid demo’s, but it worthwhile thinking about. Interesting points you raise.

The London demo yesterday was organized on short notice which would not have helped. But I think it also shows that Dublin lacks a broad forum representing different organizations. There needs to be much more communication and co-ordination between different groups on the left and humanitarian organizations. If all these various organizations could get together I think you would have seen a much, much bigger crowd out there yesterday.

The prohibition of street postering is also severely holding things up. Hopefully somehow we can get it reversed, and soon.

by sticklerfordetail Tue Jul 12, 2005 05:28

If you were really an "irish citizen" you would have also used a capital "I" in the word "Ireland"
Furthermore, the way the word is spoken here is "bollix". If you were really an "irish citizen" you would know that.

"I defy you to not hide this comment like the rest"
Sounds as if you WANT your comment to be pulled. After all, that is a "comment on editorial guidelines", which in itself is "against the editorial guidelines". Then you would hop up and down bellyaching about "the evil indymedia censors".
Somehow you sound very familiar.

by irish citizen Tue Jul 12, 2005 03:41

But the the record does NOT show that "in terms of organising a public display of solidarity with the victims of the 7/7 bombings it was the Left that organised it". Rather, the opposite.

What it DOES show if that it was the Left who organized a demonstration against the War on Terror and perversely conflated the pain, misery and suffering of the victims of London with their own objectives and for their own purposes. This demonstration is a biased, distorted political grandstand. You've spat in the faces of the dead and in that, they're little better than Indymedia.ie.

The people who were murdered in London are NOT the victims of the War on Terror. They're the victims of terrorists, and indymedia.ie is guilty of publishing some of the most cruel, cold, meanspirited and dare I say it, mean-spirited comments of all. And YOU Sir, are one of the most guilty on this site in that regard.

It's pretty clear that the left are incapable of showing any compassion or reason in this debate, instead clouding the issue as usual with the standard tactic.

Mitchell Cohen (Dissent Magazine), as previously pointed out elsewhere on this site, said after 9/11 that the Left was incapable of culpability when he said their debate was characterized by:.

"A rhetorical tactic is at play: always change the subject. Censure terror? Well, let’s talk about “the real issue”, globalization. Ask about a crisis in Islam? No, that’s bigoted, let’s discuss the real issue, Orientalism. Hasn’t the Left been through something like this before – and been discredited by it? Confront Stalinist atrocities? Ummm … let’s address “the real issues”, czarism, capitalism, and imperialism. Changing the subject signifies evasion. Sometimes it’s evasion of what means imply for ends and sometimes of the fact that the world doesn’t always present to us comforting choices."

Comment on the Indymedia editorial guidelines deleted - editor

by redjade Mon Jul 11, 2005 23:27

On March 2004 there were thousands at the Spike on O'Connell street to vigil/protest against the Madrid Bombings.

My Photo Series from then...
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63825#comment65106

Today (I couldn't make it) there were how many regarding the London Bombings?

What is one to make of this?

Certainly the Dublin-London connections are stronger than with Madrid?

Today I was talking with a Basque friend about this and he reminded me that most of the people at the Madrid Vigil were Spanish and they still thought at that time that terrorists were ETA and Basque.

He also pointed out that if the London 7/7 Bombers were the IRA, there *would* be thousands of Irish on the streets to protest/vigil and show their solidarity with London.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but it is interesting.

Fairplay to the IAWM (and the fellow travellers, Dublin Catholic Worker ;-) and others) for doing this today. Nice to see that SOMEONE did it.

Please correct me if I am wrong in this...
Let the record show that in terms of organising a public display of solidarity with the victims of the 7/7 bombings it was the Left that organised it.

Because there are many others in the media and elsewhere ( http://www.freedominst.org/blog.html ) trying their best to say that we (the collective 'We' on the Left) are not just to blame but encouraging and supporting the recent attacks on London.

March 2004, O'Connell Street, Dublin