Limerick protest against Israel's Apartheid Wall

by TheTroll Sun Jul 10, 2005 20:31

Wasn't it terrible how nazis stole French lands along the Atlantic coast to build a wall to prevent the allies from liberating France and other European countries.

What is the priority? Denouncing the continued theft of more and more Palestinian lands? Too bad liberating Palestinian lands from the murderous thieving Zionist crusaders is off the table to such concerned folks in Limerick.

Free Palestine! All of it.

by Noel Sun Jul 10, 2005 23:31

Father John Creagh will be smiling up at you.

by Bundist Mon Jul 11, 2005 00:57

Ah bless you Noel. Bundist cops your historical reference and sees that you are engaged in the current fashion of shuting down debate by simply labeling those you oppose.

Bundist is an ardent secularist and supports a two state solution but I have no doubt that, because I oppose the occupation and support the creation of an independent state of Palestine in all the territories occupied in 1967, Noel would label me an anti-semite. Its the oldest trick in the book to simply label those who have opposing ideas, so that no debate is necessary.

There are a few anti-semites lurking around in Ireland but, as Noel and his ilk well know, they are to be found in the fringes of the far right, not the IPSC which explicitly bans anti-semites in its constitution. In fact such neo-nazi scum are afraid to raise their heads because of the swift response they would get from their left -wing opponents. When Holocaust denyer Haider visited Ireland a few years ago, it was left-wing anti-fascists who disrupted his little holiday, not pro-Israeli groups. In fact can Noel cite me one incident where he or any of his pro-Israeli-state groupees did anything to physicaly oppose anti-semites/fascists in Ireland?

Bundist is proud to have been involved in disrupting Haider just as he is proud of having spent a few months in the West Bank working with Palestinian communities engaged in civil resistance to the occupation, side by side with brave Israeli and American Jews who can see that an end to occupation can only lead to a future where muslim, jew, christian and athiest can live together in peace in the Israel/Palestine. No Noel, these people in Limerick are not the heirs of Fr. Creagh but of Connolly, the great internationalist, who opposed the pograms both at home in Limerick and far away in Russia.

by Mike Mon Jul 11, 2005 01:23

Instead of simply criticizing Israel for not finding a peaceful no border solution to the conflict, why don't you provide useful guidance how to do it.

Just explain to the Israelis and the Palestinains how you manage to do it, live peacefully with each other, one island without borders.

Oh, and don't be too quick to draw parallels about a foreign population invasion. Once you are thinking in a time scale that even begins to compare to the Middle East those invading Protestant Scots are just descendants of the followers of Niall of the Hostages coming home.

by Sean Mon Jul 11, 2005 02:11

It is those of Niall who refuse to admit they are Irish. Irish Republicans have always viewed them as fellow Irish men and woman. What else would they be? Chinese? they were born in Ireland ffs!

The Answer is Eire Nua, my friend.

by TheTroll Mon Jul 11, 2005 03:48

Bundist supports the creation of Vichy Palestine, while Zionist crusaders occupy the rest. What is so terrible about seeking the liberation of ALL of the Palestinian's homeland?

Appeasers of murderous thieves, like you, make me sick.

by Ali H. Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:44

Mike,

if according to you Jews who hadn't resided in the Middle East for hundreds or even thousands of years are entitled to return and expel those who lived on the land in the meantime (remember the filistines/Palestinians from the bible?), and Scottish Protestants are entitled to do the same in Northtern Ireland, then why aren't those more recently expelled from their country i.e. the Palestinians, allowed to do the same?

As for living in peace with no wall along our border, we've never had a wall along our border on this island even when there was a full scale war going on.

Proof if it were needed that solutions can be found in an 800+ year-old conflict should be information enough that the 57 year old conflict in Palestine can be solved, if there is the will to make a just peace.

by Geoff Dolan Tue Jul 12, 2005 18:14

He has consistently stonewalled any reasonable debate by, as Bundist has pointed out, labelling people anti semites infected with the virus known as 'judenhass'.

Add to that, he consistently ignores human rights abuses against Palestinians by the Israeli state which include; illegal land grabs to build illegal settlements, land grabs that divert natural resources away from Palestinians that include water and other sources of irrigation, and ignores the basic suffering of the Palestinians.

Highlight these problems and one is accused of being an Islamic fundamentalist neo Nazi al Qaeda supporting Jew hater.

I have repeated my self yet again.No doubt Noel will do the same, highlighting suicide bombings and other extremist terror acts, ignoring the fact that extremists from both sides,Zionist Kach settlers and Hamas salafists, are sick symptons of a very sick situation.

What really counts is the responses of the ordinary people, young and old, observing this and making their own humane judgements, not some prick who relishes a bit of rethorical point scoring to bolster his own shallow ego.

Remember, it was the same with Apartheid apologists; 'blicks' had their own homelands, 'blicks' had a far greater standard of living than other 'Afs', Zuid Afrika was a bastion ginst communism, etc,etc...

There are a few Conservatives, eg; john ( [email protected]) who engage in rational debate on this site, who are to be respected. Energy gluggers like Noel are to be ignored.

:0)

by Geoff Dolan Tue Jul 12, 2005 18:27

An all Palestine creation is not feasible, and will likely result in more bloodshed.Add to that the fact that an intolerant Palestine might emerge as a backlash against Jewish people would be very likely. Monio erthnic states are a product of the ninteenth century and while a cultural ethos that defines a nation can be healthy, mono ethnicity has more oft than nought, especially in the closing part of the twentieth century, resulted in more bloodshed, and hatrd. See Bosnia, Croatia's ethnic purge of Serbs in Krajina, Serbia in Kosovo. Perhaps, in the far, far, future, a two state solution might merge as one, but this is soo way off.

However, a two state solution, folowed by further peace work and trust building, should lead to open borders and tariff free trade between the two peoples.

Troll, your comments do as much positive good for this problem as Noels or Avi H's stonewalling can do; nothing. Pragmatism, acknowledgment and compromise from both sides is the solution.

The Israeli people have not forgotten the fact that when they were a large minorety in Palestine, they consistently suffred abuse, harrasment and murder from Arabs qhile under the Ottomans and later the British mandate. In 1929, the Jews of Hebron were massacared while British troops stood by and did nothing. Today, very few Arab Muslim countries leave their small Jewish populace in peace, but Israel allows freedom for all religions in it's borders.

Israeli expansionism in the West Bank today is very, very wrong, but they too once suffered.

This is why it is important to enter into a third dimension for thinking ahead.

by Isaac Tue Jul 12, 2005 20:22

London mayor: This was mass murder
Livingstone: Terror attack against ordinary Londoners

SINGAPORE (AP) -- London Mayor Ken Livingstone said the blasts that ripped through his city were "mass murder" carried out by terrorists bent on "indiscriminate ... slaughter."

"I want to say one thing: This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty or the powerful, it is not aimed at presidents or prime ministers, it was aimed at ordinary working-class Londoners," Livingstone told reporters.

Transcript of Bush remarks on London bombings:

"The war on terror goes on. I was most impressed by the resolve of all the leaders in the room. Their resolve is as strong as my resolve. And that is, we will not yield to these people, will not yield to the terrorists.

"We will find them. We will bring them to justice. And at the same time we will spread an ideology of hope and compassion that will overwhelm their ideology of hate.

Russian President Vladimir Putin called for a united response, according to wire reports.

"Wherever such inhuman crimes occur -- in London, in New York or in Moscow -- we must unconditionally condemn them and unite all civilized countries in the struggle against international terrorism," Putin said through a spokesman, according to the reports.

* * * *

The horrid images flashed across the screens everywhere. Bloody, mangled people strewn on the road, blood and severed body parts were splattered across the seats in the blasted trains and bus. Dozens of bodies were tagged and shipped off to the mortuary. Hundreds of wounded packed nearby hospitals as England and the world reeled from the brutality of the act. London and the world were horrified, and rightly so, at another set of coordinated terrorist attacks by an Islamic group. Condolences were heavily saturated with strong, bitter and defiant condemnations and the attacks correctly tagged as "mass murder of innocents".

My heart went out for those innocent people whose lives were cut short or forever altered. I cried for the young who'll never again see the sun, pick a flower or say a prayer. My heart bled for that little girl whose mother will never again hold her in her arms and that little three-year-old boy waiting by the window for the father who will never again pick him up and toss him in the air. How does one describe the agony and pain of the parent slated to stare unbelievingly at a child's forever-empty bed? And where does a once-happy house regain the happy giggling of the frolicking child whose sweet singing voice is stilled forever? Where, indeed?

And I listened raptly to the expanding stream of political dignitaries who condemned such acts of murder and the spilling of innocent blood. I listened to President George Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair. I followed the sad yet determined consternation voiced by Jacques Chirac of France and Koffi Anan of the United Nations. Pope Benedict, Governor Pataki, Zapatero of Spain and Russia's Vladimir Putin. They spoke angrily and vowed to pursue, capture or eliminate the perpetrators. Eloquence and passionate determination, reaffirming the world's commitment to eradicate the scourge of terrorism against innocent civilians, was voiced by all without exception. By all!

It was then that I began to shiver. I shivered not from the cold wind in July, but rather from the sudden realization that I and they are not chess pieces in the same game. The shiver rose from within, from the deep recesses of my heart. Sudden realization? No. It was a shiver brought on not by realization, but of affirmation.

In the words spoken by these politicians I hear affirmation that my child's blood, a Jewish child's blood, is of a different color. I shivered as I heard London's mayor, Livingstone, lamented that this was "mass murder... by terrorists bent on indiscriminate... slaughter... aimed at ordinary working-class Londoners...." and an ugly thought entered my mind.

What of the slaughter of my children, 'ordinary, working-class' brothers and sisters in Haifa and Jerusalem, Ashdod and Ashkelon? What about my working-class Jewish fellow citizens whose simple wants and needs are the same as those in London? Where is the determination to eradicate the vermin who have turned Israeli streets into infernos as they blow up buses, restaurants and malls?

Do those murdering and maiming my children deserve a state of their own from which they can peacefully continue to bathe my country in blood? Why are the snakes in London to be pursued and eradicated, while those who have killed young Jewish mothers, Jewish infants and the unborn are to be rewarded and feted as heroes in every corner of every continent in the universe?

I shook spasmodically, the shiver rattled my teeth, as I heard President Bush, my president, vow to "find them... bring them to justice...." Bring whom to justice, I thought loudly? I'm sure he wasn't referring to those same Palestinian murderers who indiscriminately murder Israelis and whose incarceration is cut short by American demands that Israel set them free. I'm sure President Bush wasn't referring to the PLO hoodlums who have been so conveniently and magically re-incarnated in the form of newly-appointed Palestinian Authority 'policemen'. And I'm sure that the president's words of defiance weren't directed at Yasser Arafat's henchman, otherwise known as Abu Mazen.

But then the shiver receded, and in its place, I felt total disappointment and anger sweep over me. There, on the screen, stood Russia's Vladimir Putin. In a no-nonsense tone of voice, the Russian Bear spoke of the need for a "united response" to such acts of terror. Said Mr. Putin, through an interpreter: "Wherever such inhuman crimes occur -- in London, in New York or in Moscow -- we must unconditionally condemn them and unite all civilized countries in the struggle against international terrorism." London? New York? Moscow? I waited to hear Haifa. And Jerusalem. And Afula. And Netanya.

What Mr. Putin said was correct. What he urged was appropriate. The cities he named have suffered greatly at the hands of Muhammad's followers. These cities and others have seen the gory results of Islam's fanaticism. I waited for the Russian weasel to bring his lips to acknowledge those cities and many others in Israel as the epicenters of Islam's global assault on decency. I waited and expected his outrage at the despicable murder in London and New York and Moscow to continue a minute or two further so that I may know that, finally, perhaps, the world will be prompted to avenge my child's blood, too. I waited for Mr. Putin to "unconditionally condemn" the barbaric acts committed against my parents, my loved ones. I waited... and waited. And then he was gone.

I cried for the children in England and for the children in Russia. And I cried along with those in Spain. I cried for them all.

But none ever cried for my children.

by Geoff Dolan Tue Jul 12, 2005 20:49

Those beaten by settlers? Those killed by IDF troops? Those blown up by Israeli Air Force because an alleged Hamas member was in the same block of apartments? Do you cry for them too, Isaac?

by Ali H. Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:56

Isaac,

there have been numerous and repeated expressions of solidarity with Israeli victims of terror so you do not cry alone as you put it.

What distinguishes the British attacks from those in Israel is that they are religiously motivated whereas those in Israel are quite obviously politically motivated in that those conducting them are under occupation and attack from the Israeli state.

There was no such persecution of those who carried out the attacks in London as they were fully fledged citizens of the UK who had benefited from good educations etc. and chose for their own reasons to attack the British State in the manner they did.

They were not ethnically cleansed and interned in refugee camps in 3rd world squallor by an occupying power as in occupied Palestine.

In summary there is every reason for the British to be shocked by the 7/7 attacks whereas there is sadly no reason for the Israelis to be surprised that the Paltestinians have become so frustrated by 38+ years of occupation and disenfranchisment that they chose suicide attacks as a way out.

Give people something to live for and they will end suicide attacks as the Sri Lankans have done, they afterall, are the people who have been most bloodied by such attacks in the world.

by Avi H Thu Jul 14, 2005 01:18

I love the cartoon history lessons of people like the above contributor. They love to ignore salient complex facts such as Jews never totally left the Middle East or Palestine, a lot of Jews are black not white, the Palestinians have been given billions of dollars in handouts to get them out of the squalor they live in but have been fucked over by the own and other Arab leaders, with most of the money ending up in the jewellery shops and Merc dealerships of Geneva.

by Ali H. Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:11

it wasn't the Jews who have lived in Palestine since biblical times who ethnically cleansed their Palestinian neighbours. They made up perhaps 10% of the population at the time of the British Mandate.

We are now in a situation where 80% of the population in the same geographical area is Jewish.

Are you seriously suggesting that this situation has arisen purely as a result of the growth of the 10% Jewish population in the 1920s and not ethnic cleansing and subsequent plantation by European and American Jews funded by American money which is 100x greater than the amount of money given by the EU to the Palestinians?

The 100x lower foreign aid along with institutional persecution of the Palestinians by Israelis as well as depriving them of land from which they previously earned a living explains perfectly why they find themselves living in squallor. I would also remind you that Israel is no stranger to political corruption and financial scandals.

If the Israelis had any real interest in the living conditions of their neighbours they would have made a just peace a long time ago, however the Israeli population has long since been blinded to the plight of others by their own biblical eye-for-an-eye tactics, despite what common sense would dictate.

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jul 14, 2005 15:07

"it wasn't the Jews who have lived in Palestine since biblical times who ethnically cleansed their Palestinian neighbours."


"arab" East Jerusalem became "arab" as a result of ETHNIC CLEANSING. TransJordan invaded, OCCUPIED and ANNEXED east Jerusalem, and Judea and Samaria (renaming them the "west bank")
Jews were cleansed from east Jerusalem, murdered and raped, holy places were destroyed. Hebron was once a Jewish city until the Arab pogroms of the 1920s
At no time during the arab OCCUPATION was there any consideration for a "palestinian" state, because there were no "palestinians" . Under Arab OCCUPATION they were sonsiderred to be just Arabs; wither Jordanian, Syrian or Egyptian.

by Noel Thu Jul 14, 2005 17:16

Ah our friend SOB is back

no new stories, still denying the truth why support racism and hatred, again if there was never a palestine where do all the palestinians come from, ah yes SOB , there are all just arabs like the millions of arabs that stretch from Morocco to Iraq, what you mean is that they all speak the same langauge and are brown and share a religion.

Israelis on the other hand are nice clean white people arent they? But what about the 20% of Israel's population that is non jewish yes thats right they are just arabs too

get a life you sick racist

by Geoff Dolan Thu Jul 14, 2005 17:46

First time I'll agree with you on this situation-yes, the Palestinians got fucked over by their fat asss leaders who squandered their money in car dealerships, etc.

No wonder support has drifted over to Hamas, who run their own clinics, etc, and who have built up a grassroots organisation.

However, IDF have been respoinsible for blowing up a lot of infrastructure, etc built by EU money. This whole f8kd up situation is not the sole responsibility of one side.

I hope you don't think I'm anti semitic or anti Israeli cos I'm not. As I said before, Arabs once persecuted the Jews, re; Hebron 1929. It is my opinion though, that the Iron Wall envisaged by Jabotinsky is doing the same to Palestinian civilians today. I hope you can take into consi8deration about a third way forward because the present situation is not going to get people anywhere, be it suicide bombing or F16 plane attacks, land grabs or water theft.

Regards,
jeff

by avi H. Fri Jul 15, 2005 01:18

that politicians are mostly idiots, whatever their nationality. However, you have to remember that we have no choice except to put the Palestinians in lockdown. They are addicted to killing us. They are the Arab world's suicide people - primed and brainwashed - to kill Jews. We can't solve their problems, although we have often tried to, but what do you do when the person you try to help tries to kill you? Ordinary Palestinians are the victims of the Arab world's corruption and Jew-hate. They may also be victims of our ineptitude, to some extent, but in general not of our malice. Remember, the West Bank and Gaza are neither economically or geo-politically viable - and never were; and simply have been used over and over again as a club to beat the Jews with.

by Islam Uber Alles Fri Jul 15, 2005 05:22

"there are all just arabs like the millions of arabs that stretch from Morocco to Iraq, what you mean is that they all speak the same langauge and are brown and share a religion'"

The product of Invasion OCCUPATION and colonization...along with forced conversions murder, rape and ethnic cleansing. Do you think the Moroccans speak Arbic because it's a pretty language?
The "palestinians" were considered to be Syrian by the Syrians, Jordanian by the Jordanians and egyptian by the Egyptians. They were never considered unique and separate people. They came into existence as "palestinians" when Jordan and Egypt lost the territories they OCCUPIED for 20 years due to the aggressive war on their part. Prior to 1948, a "palestinian" was a jew from the region. After 1948, "palestinians" became Israelis.
Don't look now, but the Moslem invaders are kncok knock knocking at your door, and they're not as kind as the Vikings were.

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Fri Jul 15, 2005 07:11

The Good News is that Thailand is also building a wall. What else can you do with Moslem neighbors?

Call for Thai unity amid violence
Burned school in Thailand's south
There have been almost daily attacks in recent months
Thailand's interior minister has appealed for national unity after a series of co-ordinated attacks in the south of the country.

A policeman died and 10 civilians were injured when suspected Muslim separatists attacked the town of Yala.

Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has called an emergency cabinet meeting to discuss how to combat the unrest.

Hundreds of people have died in the Muslim-dominated south since violence flared there a year and a half ago.

Highly organised

"This is the time of national crisis - I would appeal for all Thai people to be united and join hands to fight against the people who have bad intentions toward the country," said Interior Minister Chitchai Wannasathit - who also is a deputy prime minister.

Thursday's attacks happened after a power blackout in Yala, the provincial capital about 1,100km (690 miles) from Bangkok, officials said.

The blackout was caused by a bomb at a power station.


VIOLENCE-HIT SOUTH
Map showing Thailand's southern region and the city of Yala
Home to most of Thailand's 4% Muslim minority
Muslim rebels fought the government up to the mid-80s
Suspected militants have upped attacks since 2004, targeting Buddhists
Security forces' response criticised by rights groups

Thailand's restive south

Once the city had been plunged into darkness hotels, restaurants, a cinema and shops were among those targeted by gunfire, more bombs and Molotov cocktails.

The attacks were highly co-ordinated, officials say, with the gunmen peppering the roads with spikes to prevent the security forces moving around the town.

Electricity has now been restored and police spokesman Gen Sanirot Thammayot said the situation was under control and urged residents "not to panic and to carry on with their lives as normal".

Thailand is predominantly Buddhist, with its 4% Muslim population concentrated in the troubled southern provinces - Pattani, Yala, Songkhla and Narathiwat.

More than 700 people have been killed in the region since violence erupted around 18 months ago.

In recent months, Buddhist monks, teachers, police and soldiers have been ambushed and murdered on an almost daily basis.

by Ali H. Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:32

Why, pray tell, is it that the West Bank and Gaza are not politically viable in your opinion?

Are they unviable in the same way as Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Monaco, San Marino, Andorra etc. are unviable?

Would Israel be viable without massive amounts of US aid?

Your assertion shows your hand in that for Zionists want to impede the establishment of an independent Palestinian state by all means, fair or foul. Arguing that a Palestinian state is unviable is the ultimate Zionist get out of jail free card.

The implication is of course that the people on the land have no right to it in Zionist eyes (only), and they cant make a state out of it so we (the Zionists) will clear the land of its inhabitants and make it viable as part of our own (Zionist) state.

Assuming that white Israeli planters are able to make the West Bank and Gaza "viable" but the Palestinian untermenschen are not shows the racist subtext of your post up for all to see.

This logic is every bit as abhorrent as that of the Nazis and Al-Qaeda.

The fact that the Palestinians do not take ethnic cleansing lying down is hardly surprising given that the Israelis do not want a single unified state, nor do they want an independent Palestinian state.

What Zionists actually want, and are doing, is to progressively confine Palestinians to smaller and smaller areas that are less and less viable so that they (the Israelis) can have all of the prime land in the West Bank to themselves.

This type of policy is also practiced against Israels own Muslim citizens who are condemned to live on less and less land per person as their population grows and Zionist councils restrict planning permission for new dwellings for Israels Muslim citizens.

From this perspective the Zionist policies are as dishonest and bankrupt as those of the apartheid regieme in South Africa.

In summary Zionists seem to expect that the Palestinians will simply roll over and take being confined to apartheid bantustans quietly and that the international community will rubberstamp the exercise. What planet are you on?

As for thinking that the international community, apart from the US, will confuse Al-Quaeda attacks with resisting occupation you are frankly delusional. This type of linkage simply does not stand up to scrutiny in any but the most brainwashed and/or cynical of minds.

As for your assertions that the Palestinians are addicted to killing Jews this is hysterical nonsense and ignores the reality that Israel is an occupying power.

Attributing Palestinian armed resistance to Jew-hate is equally nonsense. The Romans no doubt made similar statements about the Jews when they resisted occupation in Palestine 2000 years ago.

by Noel Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:14

Ali ibn Sharmootah

It is very worrying that Indymedia editors are allowing this individual to make rascist comments against muslims on this and other threads, please remove them, they are incitement to hatred and are not allowed under your own guidelines.

He states what else would you do but build a wall around your moslem neighbours and makes derogatory comments against the islamic religion.

remove them now or continue to highlight your pro Israel anti islamic stance on indymedia

by Noel Fri Jul 15, 2005 13:29

'remove them now or continue to highlight your pro Israel anti islamic stance on indymedia'.

I can't decide which part of this statement is more contemptible: the demand for censorship or the claim that Indymedia is pro-Israel.
How far down the Judenhass food chain must you be to come to that conclusion?

by Noel Fri Jul 15, 2005 14:36

Noel,

are you stating that calloing for censorship is wrong when the post is inflammatory and racist, or because its against muslims is it ok to say what you like?

The person has made comments over several threads which equates all muslims to terrorists and killers and equates the religion to evil. Do you agree with this or do you feel its ok to state these things as regards the call for censorship the operating guidelines of indymedia prohibit these sorts of things thats why the call was made, freedom of the press does not give the right to promote racism etc