Bin Tax Protests: Drimnagh/Crumlin area

by John McDermott - removefiannafail Tue Jun 21, 2005 15:47

As an unlearned person re 1916 ,I am amazed that James Connolly,s citizens army could be described as strapping farmers sons.
More likely most of them were in the R.I.C. (now the Garda Siochana)
Are there not looters in every big (and poverty ridden) city?

by historian Wed Jun 15, 2005 23:03

Yes I'm afraid we have gone woefully off-topic.
I admit I was being a bit provocative on some points but that McDermott eejit annoyed me with his guff about the "dubliners who manned the G.P.O. in 1916" as if the inhabitants of Dublin had some kind of monopoly on the Easter Rising when the fact is that many of those inside the GPO weren't Dubliners at all and probably the bulk of the city's populace were either apathetic about or hostile to the Rising at the time it occurred.

As for whitewashing and revising, I don't remember the 10.000 who marched in 1991 because I wasn't living in Ireland at the time and I only recall that the official commemoration of the occasion was fairly non-existent ......

Well let's see what 2006 or 2016 will throw up ...

by C sna C Wed Jun 15, 2005 17:05

Now this is an anti-bin tax forum so apologies to all the good people involved for straying off the point to rebut “Historian’’s” revisionism.

While I’d broadly agree with 90% of your analysis on 1916, I feel you’re distorting the truth somewhat to make the following points i.e; that the rising was a pathetic failure in military terms and that the bulk of the population were against the rebels.
While it is well established that a military victory was not seriously anticipated by the rebels, how many rebel positions were actually overran and taken from the rebels by the British before the surrender then?

The crippling of Sherwood Forestors by about a dozen volunteers in carefully prepared positions effectively knocked the battalion out of any meaningful role in the suppression of the rebellion and was by any standards a military victory (2 Irish casualties against 230 British). To blame the disaster on the usual chinless wonders for idiotic tactics is beside the point, you make your own mistakes.

The fact that Brit reinforcements were welcomed by loyalists only makes the point that there was/is a significant pro-British section of the population at the time in South Dublin, this is hardly news, in fact Blackpitts and the area around Guinness brewery was a notorious loyalist stronghold.

Trinity and Dublin Castle were effectively loyalist pockets of resistance (still are some would say) in rebel held central Dublin. But who controlled the streets for the bulk of the week ? Surely you can accept the evidence of cordon the Brits had around the rebel held area– why would they have to create an area of containment and then reduce it if they could have easily strolled from rebel position to position? This is all very basic stuff.

Nobody to my knowledge has ever claimed that the rising enjoyed mass support, ---but then when and where has urban warfare ever been popular?.However, you ignore Mac Neills countermanding orders, the risings in Asbourne, Oranmore and Enniscorthy .

As for the “damp squib” of the 75th anniversary of the Easter Rising in 1991, --this is true if you are referring to shameful way the government caved into revisionism (then probably at it's peak) by virtually ignoring the anniversary. --You don’t recall the 10,000 strong march in Dublin organised in response by the INC or are you into whitewashing as well as “revising” history?

by historian Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:13

Now now take it easy Caobhin, the heat in the kitchen must be getting to you.

Northumberland Road and Clanwilliam House, ah yes, the Alamo of Dublin 1916 ...
http://www.pearsecom.com/Ireland/anniversaries/1916/April%2026th,%201916.htm

Now let's get a few facts straight. The British casualties in this little encounter were about 230 or so from a detatchment of about 800 Sherwood Foresters. That's pretty heavy casualties all right no doubt about it but to speak of "annihilation" seems a tad exaggerated to me. However, you're entitled to your opinion.

Now just for the sake of argument let's have a closer look at the details. According to our non-revisionist version from the rebel kitchen the IRB and Citizen Army insurgents had such complete control of the city that it was necessary to shell central Dublin to regain control.

The fact is that the rebels had seized about a dozen or so key buildings and did indeed have a rather fragmented control over certain key areas of the city. But as far as I am aware both Trinity College and Dublin Castle were firmly in British hands .... so the control was not as complete as some romantic souls would have us believe.

The Northumberland road massacre is not evidence of any rebel superiority in military terms. It rather indicates the completely idiotic nature of that tactics employed by the Col. Blimp commanding the largely inexperienced Sherwood Foresters, a certain Col. Ernest William Stuart King Maconchy. As one commentator notes: "They were so raw. Most had less than three months of military service. They were unfamiliar with their weapons and had not yet had live firing practice."

You can read the detailed account at:
http://www.crich-memorial.org.uk/foreignfield.html
(Yep - it's a British site but it gives by far the most detailed account of the battle which I could find. All the Irish ones are fairly scant and shrouded in a haze of unquestioning celtic romanticism).

Interestingly we find that as these poor wee cannon fodder laddies were marching into Dublin they encountered relatively little hostility:
"They marched in the fine sunlight of a Dublin Spring. From Kingstown, where they landed (now known as Dun Laoghaire) though the wide tree lined streets towards the Canal bridge. Some harassing fire was directed at them as they neared the vicinity of the bridge but it was not of any great or determined effect. It was largely an enjoyable march, for the residents welcomed them and pressed tea and sandwiches upon the soldiers and offered gifts, including maps and field glasses."

These lads were sent into an urban streetfighting scenario using "frontal charge" trench warfare tactics. What does our commentator conclude about the whole affair:
"For the British it was a disaster. Within a twenty minute march of the bridge there were half a dozen other bridges that could have been crossed with little difficulty and which would have delayed the soldiers by no more than half an hour. Instead they had engaged in a full-scale struggle with untrained troops against an well-entrenched and highly motivated enemy. It was the classic example of how not to fight a street battle. Perhaps the first important lesson for the British Military in street fighting tactics."

Doesn't sound like the rebels were in such complete control of the city does it ?
What we actually have is a small outpost of well-trained and highly-motivated men well positioned behind good and organised cover pitted against a bunch of raw recruits being sent in as cannon fodder by some Col. Blimp. who seem to have been completely oblivious to the fact that only a short distance away there were half a dozen other bridges that could have been crossed with little difficulty.

Far be it from me to tread on your dreams about "holding most of Dublin for over a week against the largest Imperial power". However, it might also be pointed out for the sake of completeness that this Imperial power was at that time engaged in a fairly major imperial adventure on the continent of Europe and so maybe one could make allowances for them being taken by surprise and having to spend a few days organising the strike-back. Same thing as happened in 1798 when Humbert arrived in Mayo.

Now let's return to my original points which in your haste to defend the honour of the men of 1916 you appear to have completely overlooked.
- The majority of the citizens of Dublin were not in favour of the Rising and gave it little or no support or were openly hostile (for example because of the massive disruption of civilian life and destruction of property resulting from it).
- The Rising itself was an abject failure from a military point of view and public opinion only turned in favour of the rebels AFTER the execution of the leaders and the mass internments which followed.
To claim otherwise is to completely disregard the facts of history in favour of some type of celtic twilight masturbatory romanticism.

And you might like to note that Michael Collins and his fellow "graduates" from Frongoch who carried on the next phase of the struggle also regarded the Rising as a dismal (albeit heroic) failure. This being the main motivation for the different tactics adopted during the War of Independence.
You'll note that they didn't attempt to seize the GPO a second time in 1919.

And while I'm on a roll, allow me to add a few more observations.
If the plain people of Dublin were such gallant patriots and vigorous opponents of British rule in 1916 why the f**k were there only a dozen or so men in Northumberland Road/Clanwilliam House ? As a certain Sean McEoin, Blacksmith of Ballintee is reported to have quipped in response to the flood of dubious pension applications after the Free State was established: Where were all these valiant warriors when we needed them ?
You'd think that even if the gallant patriotic citizens of Dublin didn't want to give a hand manning the machine guns they could have brought along some tea and sandwiches to give the lands a bit of sustenance. As far as I can see it was only the British soldiers who were getting the tea and sandwiches from the citizens of Dublin.

And as for the aforementioned dozen or so men in Northumberland Road/Clanwilliam House, how many of them were Dubliners ? The only information I´ve been able to unearth about their origins is that one of them, Joe Clarke, was a North County Dublin man. Jaysus a feckin' culchie ! And if any of the other men were "true blue Dubs" why have their fellow citizens of the metropolis not commemorated them appropriately ?

And now as regards your final comment:
"Re. looting and spitting, unfortunately there always seems to be no shortage of sneerers and opportunists to belittle the efforts of Irish struggle, as you can no doubt vouch for yourself ..."
Might I point out in my defence, that it is not nor has it ever been my intention to belittle the efforts of those who PARTICIPATED in the Irish struggle. I was merely trying to point out that those who have done so HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A SMALL DEDICATED MINORITY who have generally not enjoyed much active support from the ovine multitudes of their fellow citizens. This holds just as true for the men of ´98 as it does for those who lit the living flame in 1916.

And if you dispute it then please refresh my memory as to how the proud patriotic citizens of Dublin commemorated the 75th anniversary of the Easter Rising in 1991 ....... a bit of a damp squib wasn't it .....

by J. Murray Tue Jun 14, 2005 21:19

Love the pics Paula keep them coming!!!
In fact they are so good I'd nearly buy one myself.

by C sna C Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:38

"it was from a military point of view a pretty pathetic and botched effort."

So holding most of Dublin for over a week against the largest Imperial power is just our imagination then eh? Tell that to the regiment of Sherwood Forestors annihilated at Northumberland road by a dozen volunteers, it was such a cakewalk that the Brits had to shell central Dublin to regain control.

Re. looting and spitting, unfortunately there always seems to be no shortage of sneerers and opportunists to belittle the efforts of Irish struggle, as you can no doubt vouch for yourself "historian".

by historian Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:07

And exactly what proportion of those in the GPO in 1916 were "Dubliners" ?

As far as my knowledge of the event goes, those inside the GPO were a motley crew from all parts of Ireland and even a few Brits (disaffected Scousers and the like who have been conveniently airbrushed out of history).
Many of the plain people of Dublin opposed the rising and were either busy looting during it or spitting on the arrested volunteers afterwards.

And a a parting shot, I don't think that 1916 qualifies as an exemplary military victory against overwhelming odds. It may have had a significant political (and military) knock-on effect due to the EXECUTIONS and mass internments that followed but in itself it was from a military point of view a pretty pathetic and botched effort.

But the Irish always had great imagination and a great knack of blowing things up out of all proportion.

by John McDermott (offstage) Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:05

I'll enjoy the sun on Gran Canaria and collecting the rents from my properties while you poor suckers languish in misery on Erin's green isle .....

by john McDermott - removefiannafail Tue Jun 14, 2005 01:23 jmcd444 at yahoo dot com Spain

Congratulations to the good people of Drimnagh and Crumlin.
Keep faith and fight the good fight.You are outnumbered ,out financed,and outlawed.
But so were the dubliners who manned the G.P.O. in 1916.
God willing,your enthusiasm will spread.
A "risen people" could remove Bertie and his fellow, bog-hoodlums from Leinster house....prepare now for the coming election.!

by Sean Crudden Mon Jun 13, 2005 20:21

Stylish pictures, Paula. Congratulations!

by Paula Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:55 mspgeraghty at yahoo dot ie

details

by Paula Geraghty Mon Jun 13, 2005 16:23

all photos by Paula Geraghty ©

Photos are from Drimnagh/Crumlin area. Was lively fun and there was a community clean up where people left their rubbish outside local council offices!