Dublin's Dame Street: Israel v. Palestine - Ends in a Draw

by redjade Sat Jun 04, 2005 23:18

.

by redjade Sat Jun 04, 2005 23:55

The Indymedia Ireland folks published a feature on today's protest...

My photos not published on Indymedia.ie are posted there, click...

June 4: Boycott of Ireland-Israel Football Matches
https://israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/3208/index.php

by Flock Together Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:12

This comment followed the silly photos of terrorist supporters supporting terrorists:

by Indymedia Ireland Watch
Reply to this comment
Yet another disgraceful protest by the fellow-travellers of Palestinian terror - check it out - Sinn Fein/IRA, the murderers of thousands of Irish and British people are there, supporting the demonstration. Disgusting.

by . Sun Jun 05, 2005 14:15

Yes, it beggars belief how these supporters of terrorism can flaunt their hate on the streets of Dublin. They murder innocent Palestinians on a daily basis, seize their houses and property, confine them to enclosed ghettos, and they are now building a huge wall to encircle the Palestinian people in these ghettos. It's akin to what the nazis did to the jews. And, peculiarly as the descendents of those who suffered at the hands of the nazis, they feel no shame. No contradiction. No sense of deja vu.

by toneore Sun Jun 05, 2005 17:09 toneore at eircom dot net

What's wrong with a counter demonstration? The supporters of Israel are entitled to their views and to counter the supporters the murderers of Israeli children. When are the Pro-Palestinian lobby in Ireland going to stop consorting with Sinn Fein/IRA - perhaps their cause would be more palatable? Of course, no co-incidence they're in bed together, given that the IRA were in league with the Nazis in WWII, and the Palestinian Love In Bridage are a front for Anti-Semitism and hatred...

by Tustate Sun Jun 05, 2005 17:41

If any objective reader doubts the truth about the daily suffering of Palestinians under occupation just follow this link (from todays edition of the mainstream ISRAELI paper Haaretz!) and read about one example from the Hebron Hills area in the south of the West Bank:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/584293.html

by Working Class Sun Jun 05, 2005 22:22

The Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign and SWP were wrong in their protests in my opinion. They targeted working class Isrealis for the crimes of their capitalists. Why did that dodgy poster of an Israeli soldier wear football shorts and socks? The supporters of Israelis soccer team and the players on the Israeli soccer team are not to blame for the crimes of Sharon and the Zionists! There were some Palestinians on the Israeli team who are Israeli citizens. I'm sure someone will come here and say 'What about South Africa'. Difference is that the SA sports associations were discriminating against Black people.

by Nicolo Sun Jun 05, 2005 23:09

Working Class,

The protest was not targeted against working class supporters it was against the israeli government.

However, In Israel every citizen does military service (except Arabs, Christians do it voluntarily) That means all of the team did military service, all the working class supporters yuou mention did military service, men and women. Last year the israeli military killed 700 palestinians, including 150 kids, most were killed unlawfully according toAmnesty International.

All these working class supporters have indeed helped the occupation as soldeirs and continue to help the occupation with their continued support of government policy.

Finally as regards Palestinians on the team its weel documented that these players are the subject of rascism at most games, they themselves have stated this, indeed the cosrer of the equalising goal in Tel Aviv was Palestinian and was subjected to taunts of "Dirty Arab" and "He does not represent us"

These are facts, the supporters may be working class but in Israel where EVERYONE is in the military at some stage then they are responsible.

by Working Class Sun Jun 05, 2005 23:29

There is compulsary military service. But many are "refusniks" and refuse to serve in occupied territories. The policy of occupation is the policy of the capitalist ruling class in Israel. The fact that there is compulsary military service shows that the Israeli working class also suffer from the occupation.

There are examples of racism towards Arabs. You give the example of "Dirty Arab" tount. This is wrong and should be condemned. But it is not the case that all Iaraeli working class people can be blamed for these remarks. There were/are racist remarks towards Black England soccer players. Does not mean that all English soccer fans are racists and support UK government policies.

I've no problem with SWP and IPSC using the game to highlight the cause of the Palestinian people. I problem I have is that it should be done in a way that does not blame Israeli working class people for the policies of their government. What next? Irish fans being blamed for the policies of Bertie Ahern? US Soccer fans being accused of killing Iraqis? Maybe you should have used match to approach the Israeli fans and talk to them about the disgusting occupation and anti-working class policies of the Sharon government. Class solidarity is only way forward.

by Devil Dog Sun Jun 05, 2005 23:46

Of the 700 Palestinians you say were killed by the IDF, can you give us a breakdown of how many were non-combatant civilians and how many were "militants" engaged in combat against the IDF, about to attack Israeli civilians etc? Same for the 150 "kids".

by Workers Unite Mon Jun 06, 2005 05:08

Boycotting a soccer team that is sponsored by the aparthied Israeli state is not an action against the working class.

The British bagpipe band "The Black Watch" is boycotted and picketed by Irish nationalists, every time they come to cities in the U.S., because of their participation in the British military, which enforces the occupation of Northern Ireland.

The Palestinian people suffer humiliation, and inimidation on a daily basis, and yes the Israeli working class is suffereing because they have been drawn into a death trap by their zionist leaders, in collaboration with the U.S. and British imperialists.

A secular state needs to be created that will give all people in that area equal rights, instead of one group ruling over another.

A Secular and free Palestine is what is needed.

The state of Israel is a state that was built on the destruction of another people. It will never be able to grant equality to all the people of that area, because it is based on quasi racial, and religious doctrine.

For more info about this subject, and why the Bush/Sharon road map is a dead end for the Palestinian people go to the following website. It has recorded radio programs about this subject, as well as the written version of The Hidden History of Zionism.

by Workers Unite Mon Jun 06, 2005 05:13

here is another website for working class info.

Just ignore the advertisements. They are put there by angelfire, so that the website can be free of charge to the user.

by raymond deane - ipsc Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:34 supportpalestine at ireland dot com PO Box 9124, Dublin 1 01-6770253

I've read these comments, most of them predictable, with some interest.
It would be interesting to know whether those people who demonise Palestinians because of the suicide bombers were supporters of the Palestinian cause until the suicide bombings started - i.e. almost 50 years after the ethnic cleansing of 1948, almost 30 years after the illegal 1967 occupation. I bet the answer is no: before Hamas (the birth of which was facilitated by the state of Israel in order to split the resistance) started its campaign, these defenders of Israeli oppression would have found other reasons to hate Palestinians and those who defend their inalienable rights.
As for the racist taunts with which Palestinian players on the Israeli team are spattered, there is a difference between this and the habitual racism of (say) Spanish soccer fans: in Israel those who have just been shouting "Death to Arabs" in the stadium get handed a uniform and a sub-machinegun and given carte blanche to kill as many Arabs as they like.
As for the "working class" and what I take to be the Socialist Party perspective on all this, it really serves to demobilise any kind of activism; if we're going to wait until the Israeli and Palestinian working classes get together, then we might as well go back to our armchairs and wait for our great-grandchildren to take up the cause. The Israeli working-class is as indoctrinated as the rest of Israeli society, perhaps more so (the newspapers they read offer the perspective of gutter Zionism). The fact that this is against their own interests is a red herring - if we sit around waiting for them to realise this, then our bums will be stiff. That we should aim for such realisation is beyond doubt - but meanwhile we shouldn't be held back from other forms of action.
This was not a demonstration against the footballers or whatever class they or their supporters come from: it was a demo against the Israeli state and against the continuity that exists between all aspects of Zionist propaganda, which doesn't hesitate to manipulate sports and sports fans - including the Irish fans who went to Tel Aviv. This was symbolised by the admittedly shocking image of the soldier in football gear.

Meanwhile, the media coverage of our demo (apart from Indymedia) was characteristically disgraceful. We heard and read that there were "hundreds" or "300-500" demonstrators, whereas at the height of the demo there were certainly between 1000-2000. Newsreaders on RTE and Today FM referred to the IPSC "claim" that there is an illegal Israeli occupation, without mentioning that this "claim" is also made by the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, numerous Israeli human rights groups, etc. etc. We need to start a massive "tell the truth" campaign targeted at our mainstream media, which are cowardly agents of the state. The same goes for the would-be "alternative" Village, which refused to print an e-mail debate between myself and (e.g.) the Irish team manager because it might make the magazine seem to be a "spoilsport". The map of the world which Village includes in its centre pages features Israel but not Palestine - enough said.
Finally, meditate on the significance of the fact that the FAI refused to call for 1' silence before the match for the victims ON BOTH SIDES. This was, apparently, "too hot a potato". Moral cowardice all round, and Israel continues to expand.
Raymond Deane
Chair: IPSC

by redjade Mon Jun 06, 2005 14:33

toneore asks:
'What's wrong with a counter demonstration?'

Absolutely nothing - I'd support their right to demonstrate.

But that's not what these Israelis were after - I saw them approach the scene, it was obvious they were looking to create trouble. Smug looks on their faces and all. The cameras - like myself - were there, they went in, waved their Israeli flags hoping for lure a bull into charging - they got exactly that. Predictably enough.

What made me sad in witnessing it was the lack of self-discipline of the Arabs on the scene that so quickly took the Israeli bait. Their reaction, while understandble for a lot of good reasons, was - in my opinion - undignified and counter-productive to the event.

You can see an irish guy - I think he was with IPSC(?) - intervene and divide the two sides from each other. Fairplay to those who did intervene - The Gards got to the scene late.

All in all it was a non-event, but just the kind of thing that the media love (including myself, to be honest). I don't know if photos/video of the Dame st scuffle made it to the mainstream news, I'd be curious.

by Dave Curran Mon Jun 06, 2005 14:47

"What's wrong with a counter demonstration? The supporters of Israel are entitled to their views and to counter the supporters the murderers of Israeli children. When are the Pro-Palestinian lobby in Ireland going to stop consorting with Sinn Fein/IRA - perhaps their cause would be more palatable? Of course, no co-incidence they're in bed together, given that the IRA were in league with the Nazis in WWII, and the Palestinian Love In Bridage are a front for Anti-Semitism and hatred..."

First of all toneore, if you tried to organise a counter demo, you wouldn't get many people at it. Go ahead and try if you like.

I don't imagine you'd bother though -its not as if you genuinely care abour either side in this conflict. Your suggestion that people who support the Palestinians are a "front for anti-semitism and hatred" show that you are just a childish troll.

by Ciaran Mon Jun 06, 2005 14:49

I saw them approach the scene, it was obvious they were looking to create trouble. Smug looks on their faces and all.

Oh no, they didnt have smug looks on their faces?..god damn it, smug looks, those damn proud football fans...why I wish I could a wiped those smug looks off their faces

by Nicolo Mon Jun 06, 2005 16:11

Devil Dog,

The figures I quote come from Amnesty international and the 150 children were children. I dont know the breakdown of combatants but the report states that

"Most were killed unlawfully — in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force"

It goes on to highlight the killings of Israelis by Palestinian militants including 67 inncoent civilians, this is despicable.

These are not made up figures all deaths are shameful but as Amnesty has stated

"Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes, including unlawful killings; extensive and wanton destruction of property; obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel; torture; and the use of Palestinians as “human shields”.

by Nicolo Mon Jun 06, 2005 16:14

Sorry working class but you are wrong,

even refusniks will tell you that their number is terribly small within israel, people serve in the military and most believe in it.

I agree that capitalism is at the root cause but the majority of Israelis support the occupation, Israel is a militay state supported by its people, just look at the comments of the great working class of Israel in Dublin on Saturday, "fuck palestine" was a common phrase heard.

by Devil Dog Mon Jun 06, 2005 19:35

Your post is certainly more, ahem, "emphatic" than your normal missives to Madam.

Some points:

1. Who here has "demonised" all Palestinians because of the homicide bombers? Sounds suspiciously like Shinner victimhood-speak.

2. Regarding your reference to 1948 & 1967 ,and we'll throw in 1973 too - can you tell us what were the war aims of the Arab states which attacked Israel? Were they striving to set up a secualr, bi-national Palestine, with full rights guaranteed for all Jews? Or had they something else in mind?



3. If your looking for examples of racism in the ME, I suggest you look no further than http://www.pmw.org.il/, it has some real doozies from various Palestinian media.

4. Congratulations on a sublime piece of arrogance and condescension - those poor old Israeli workers just don't know what's in their own interests, eh?

5. Any photos of your demo I've seen on the web would suggest a figure in the 100's - your claim of between 1,000-2,000 is kinda hard to swallow, it's hard not to notice 1,000 people.

6. Why would the Village include a map of Palestine? There's no such state. BTW, how exactly do you define "Palestine"? Pre-1967 Arab War of annihilation or Post?

by Nicolo Mon Jun 06, 2005 19:49

Devil Dog,

Can you comment on the Amnesty International findings about the conduct of Israel in the occupied territories, I mean charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity are pretty sever edont you think?

by Workers Unite Mon Jun 06, 2005 19:50

The wars that involve Israel were what the zionists and the imperialists term as preemptive, or as the neocons now call them preventative wars. Creating a war situation by claiming that the other side is going to invade or strike, so they can go in and occupy more territory.
For more info about Zionism and imperialism go to the following website.

by Golda Wed Jun 08, 2005 01:36 palestiniansdon'texist at yahoo dot com

Hey losers why don't you support people who actually exist? "Palestinians" are just Arabs who are occupying Jewish land. Jews were the first to be called "Palestinian." a "Palestinian" language, culture, country has never existed! The Arabs should go back to Arabia and leave the Jewish homeland to the Jews!

STOP THE ARAB OCCUPATION OF ISRAEL!

by Devil Dog Wed Jun 08, 2005 01:40

So are you actually claiming that Israel initiated the wars of 1948 & 1973?

Even in 1967, she simply got her retaliation in first, before Nasser had a chance to launch another attempt to destroy the country.

by Nicolo Wed Jun 08, 2005 01:47

Devil Dog,

Can you please respond to the questions posed by Amnesty International about the socalled IDF

by Devil Dog Wed Jun 08, 2005 02:14

Here's my answer. I don't for one minute believe that AI is a partial body, particularly with regard to Israel...and the US for that matter, e.g that "gulag" comment.

To me war crimes would include deliberate targetting of civilians, rape, etc.

A building being destroyed in combat is not a war crime. Yes, innocent civilians get killed but do you believe the IDF deliberately targets them? And haven't IDF troops who did murder civilians face the consequences? I'm all for IDF personnel who deliberately kill civilians being punished severely but I don't think it happens on a wide scale.

One example of AI's bias - on the ambulances matter, do they mention that Palestinian terrorists frequently use ambulances to transport weapons and fighters?

I've trained with the IDF, a top-class, highly competent, professional force - then again, they have to be, don't they, surrounded by states which have attempted to annihilate their country?

by Nicolo Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:37

Devil Dog,

AI has actually mentioned the abuses of human rights and the crimes against humanity perpetrated by Palestinians.

Show you evidence of ambulances being used for transporting munitions , The UN was also accused of this by Israel.

Just last week soldiers have begun to speak about being ordered to delinerately target civialans and police.

As for you training with the Israeli murder machine well that says a lot about you,

Forfive me for giving more crfedence to AI, The UN etc etc etc than you

by C sna C Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:49

"A top-class, highly competent, professional force - then again, they have to be, don't they, surrounded by states which have attempted to annihilate their country?"

Total horseshit - As the Yanks put it when the IDF invaded Lebanon, "a Fourth-rate army fighting a seventh rate one".

Professional? So they don't use conscripts then? Still paranoid about annihilation as well, suppose you still reckon Israels enemies include Egypt and Jordan?

by Noel Wed Jun 08, 2005 13:44

'Still paranoid about annihilation'

Remember the conciliatory message scrawled on the Iranian Shahabs?
'Israel must be wiped off the map'
No danger there. No siree.

by Nicolo & C sna C Wed Jun 08, 2005 14:07

"AI has actually mentioned the abuses of human rights and the crimes against humanity perpetrated by Palestinians."

Nic, I'll assume this was a Freudian land slide on your part and that you meant to type "against" and not "by"? Or are you telling us the Palestinians commit crimes against humanity?

"Show you evidence of ambulances being used for transporting munitions , The UN was also accused of this by Israel.2

Here you go - Google is your friend:

http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art8008web.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/hrpa.html

http://mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0n6w0


"As for you training with the Israeli murder machine well that says a lot about you,"

Does it? What exactly?

"Forfive me for giving more crfedence to AI, The UN etc etc etc than you"

No problems, not like I view the UN with any credibility either. This would be the same UN which claimed that there was a "massacre" in Jenin, right?


C sna C:
I suppose the IDF hasn't repeatedely defeated vastly numerically superior forces in its wars then?

So conscript armies can't be "professional" in the sense that they are highly competent, efficient etc?

Maybe not Egypt & Jordan, but how about Syria, Iran, Iraq pre-liberation for a start?

by Devil Dog Wed Jun 08, 2005 14:08

Whooopss - below comment is mine, not N & C sna C's.

by Nicolo Wed Jun 08, 2005 14:20

Yes Devil Dog,

Palestinians do perpetrate crimes against humanity,

suicide bombs are evil crimes against humanity,

However, suicide bombers are a tiny minority and we cannot demonise an entire population for that.

As regards what you seem to suggest is a world wide conspiracy against Israel, do you believe that the IDF commit crimes against humanity, is Israel blameless, can I ask how you trained with the IDF, (its only from curiosity, were you in the US military)

by Nicolo Wed Jun 08, 2005 14:27

PS Devil Dog,

I checked your links and they appear to all be quoting Israeli govt sources, now come on can you show INDEPENDENT evidence of anything you say.

You may not give credence to the UN, AI, Human Rights Watch, MSF, the BBC, Bob Fisk, John Pilger, Caoimhe Butterly, the 5 oireachtas members held up at gun point by the IDF on Monday, Desmond Tutu, Mordechai Vanunu, etc etc etc etc etc

But a lot of people do beleive these sources and are seeing the real situation.

I am not against Israelis or Jews I am against the government policy of Israel in the illegally occupied lands of the West bank and Gaza. Why are you against human rights

I dont want to see Israelis die, I want their killers brought to Justice but 6,000 people held in administrative detention is wrong, continuing to expand settlements on the west bank is wrong, (it goes against the road map, which israel has signed up to), shooting kids is wrong (on both side s)

by jamesamdg Thu Jun 09, 2005 00:30

So would the independant and un-biased groups noted, like Human Rights Watch, UN, Amnesty, etc. have much to say about the crimes of the Palenstinians, or even the brutal treatment of palestianians by the Arab governments who keep them in camps?

Or would this be the same UN that affords dictators and murderers the same floor as democratically elected governments?

The same Amnesty that called Guantanomo a "gulag"^ Seriously, any Soviet prisoner would have that Guantanomo was a paradise compared to the real gulag. Heck, I'll even bet theres a buttload of North Koreans, Chinese or Cubans who, if the government minders weren;t there, would volunteer for a place where they get fed enough food, can practice their religion and aren;t forced to do slave labour. Gular indeed.

And you're giving anyone else the buisiness about their sources? Sheesh.

by Nicolo Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:49

If you took time to read the latest Amnesty report then you would actually see it does categorically state that acts of terrorism perpetrated by palestinians constitute crimes against humanity, it does report on the abuses of the arab regiemes.

As regards the democratic nature of Israel, tell that to Palestinians and the 1.2 million Israeli arabs who are second class citizens.

Again, all the sources I stated have reported these things please I ask you and devil dog to come up with independent sources to back up your accounts of events. Just because you think Amnesty, etc are unbiased that dont make it so.

I would like to see you spendf time in Guantanamo as see how you would like it

by Noel Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42

Amnesty have admitted they don't know what happens in Guantanomo.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050605/ts_nm/rights_guantanamo_amnesty_dc_4
The takkiyyah of the inmates is the only source of information regarding abuses.

As for spending some time there, no prisons are supposed to be cosy. If you can't do the time etc.

by J. Stewart Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:45 jstewart at hotmail dot com

I don't understand how any reasonable, humane person could continue to side with the Palestinians over the Israelis. The only explanations are:

1. So many people hate Jews
2. The Palestinians are much better at putting their case forward to thei world(though it's usually full of lies) than the Israelis.

What is all this "occupied territories" bunk? Israel won those territories in the Six-Day-War. This was not a war Israel started- it was a DEFENSIVE war against the Palestinians who attacked them. Name ONE country- JUST ONE- that has had to give back territories won in war- much less a defensive war. When the US gives Texas back to Mexico, let me know and I'll be the first to demand that Israel give back the land they won.

The Israelis have repeatedly tried to make peace but the Palestinians prefer to live in a cult of death than actually get their act together and live as a normal society. With all the gazillions of dollars in international aid they've gotten, they have not built one school, one hospital, paved one road, NOTHING! All of that money has gone to suicide bombers and suicide bomber camps for little kids. Most people would like their sons to grow up to be a doctor or a lawyer- most Palestinians pray that their sons grow up to strap on explosives and kill as many Jews as possible.

Come on, people, doesn't that BOTHER anybody? If the Palestinians were against anyone but the Jews, I think it would bother people- but since Jew-hating is such a popular sport, no one gives a damn.

by Nicolo Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:33

You are so wrong on so many accounts its hard to know where to start

1) you make the mistake that israel is a jewish state, Israel is a secular democracy with 20% of its population being non-jewish(1.2 million citizens of Israel)

2) The six day war was preemptive against Egypt, Jordan and Syria not the Palestinians, the land is considered occupied by the entire international community. it was not the Palestinians that attacked Israel, whatever your veiws are on the war it was israel against Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

3) there are many instances of seized territory returning to the defeated, take the 1973 Arab/israeli war when israel occupied all of the Sinai, its had gone back to Egypt,
South lebanon occupied by israel since 1978 has gone back to Lebanon. Look at the Balkans in the 1990'2 etc etc

4)Critisism of Israel is not Jew hating, many international organisation have documented human rights abuses etc in the Occupied Territories and criticise Israel.

Please know you facts before caling people Jew Haters because you only end up looking foolish. In 1948 when the state of Israel was created the UN declared the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza to be Palestine and it was so until 1967 and has been occupied since 1967, even America considers these to be occupiedterritories, the entire world does.

Again please this calling people Jew Haters is just a symbol of people own predjudices and racial hatred against atrabic people.

by Nicolo Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:48

I am so angry reading your post I have to reply again,

Your assetions about peace making are so false that your are either ignorant of the facts or simply lying about them.

Presently, it is the Israelis that are not working within the terms of the agreed roadmap to peace, it is accepted politically in the world tofday that it was Euhad Barak that stalled the peace talks with Clinton and Arafat some years ago.

As regards millions of dollars in aid, its just not true and the infrastructure you mention not being built is false, it is built and destroyed by the Israelis, in Ramallah there was an airport being built until the ISraelis closed it and build the apartheid wall around it. School are built everywhere but you dont know they are schools because the are full of bullet holes made by Israelis who shoot kids at their desks.

I have mentioned in my last post the instances of Israel returning territory to defeated states so that blows your warped understanding of warfare into the water.

Your ignorance is mystifing your apparent rascism is abhorrent and your arguments are just plain stupid.

by Noel Thu Jun 09, 2005 13:38

Nicolo,

Ehud Barak's generous offer to Arafat was rejected by Arafat, with no counter proposal whatsoever. President Clinton called Arafat a liar and Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia said rejecting the treaty was a 'crime against the Palestinian people'.

Have you ever considered that perhaps some of the millions of dollars in aid was stolen by Arafat, making that particular Eqyptian one of the richest men on Earth.

Israel returned Sinai to Egypt after an official peace treaty was signed. Similarly, Israel has accepted the transfer of land to the PA in return for peace.

by Nordie Thu Jun 09, 2005 13:49

Nicolo, you should just learn to laugh at people like that. I think calling anti-Zionism 'Jew Hating' is as offensive to the good Jews as if someone tried to claim that anti-Nazism was White Hating. The real scumbags are the right-wing jokes who try to make out that Jew = Rabid Racist Zionist Murdering Thieving Lying Scum when we really know that it's actually just Zionist which equals Rabid Racist Zionist Murdering Thieving Lying Scum. Not all white people were Nazis and opposing them wasn't racist in the least (weirdly, entities like that one you replied to must also count good anti-Zionist Jews as being Jew Haters also. See, that is the type of creature you're dealing with here, people with the brains of pigs), so I can't see how opposing their modern day counterparts like Ariel Sharon is racist. The opposite is true - not to oppose Zionist scum because they happen to be Jews is grossly racist and equates all good Jews with these blood thirsty morons. Jewish is nothing to do with Zionism, murder and racism is everything to do it. Einstein saw how rotten a disaster Zionism was going to be, they should listened to that great man.

by Nicolo Thu Jun 09, 2005 13:51

Noel,

I was angry and the stupidity of JStewarts ignorant post. In relation to Arafat's "rejection" well its a matter of who you believe, personally I think Bill Clinton calling anyone a liar is a bit rich and Saudi Arabia ( a client US state especially their ruling family) giving pronoucements is ridiculous. Many political commentators argue that it was Clinton and Barak especially that sabotaged the agreements. We can just agree to disagree on this

I agree with you on handing land over, it was JStewarts ridiculous comment I was reply to

You and I have crossed posts here before and have opposing views so lets no waste each others time calling names.

As regards Arafats so called wealth, I have stood where he lived for the final years of his life surrounded by the Israeli Military in total and utter devastation. Millions in bank accounts did nothing for him there. Also he was loved by his people, he was flawed and corrupt and cruel but he fought for his people all his life and they loved him for it.

Finally stating that Arafat was egyption is true I suppose but more correctly born in Egypt. Just like its true to say that many "Israelis" speak with American, Russian accents etc, were born outside Israel but then again they are Israelis arent they Noel

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jun 09, 2005 14:21

"Millions in bank accounts did nothing for him there. "

Arafat looted 7 BILLION US Dollars fromhis poor starving people.
Suha is laughing all the wy to the bank. And as she once said, if she had a son, she would blow him up for palestine.
(probably stated over some French wine and a bit of brie.

by Tom Ryan Thu Jun 09, 2005 14:58

You called yourself correclty

Anyone who beleive that the US gave 7billion in aid to Palestine while giving 6billion each year to Israel is misguided.

It makes no sense the US supports the zionist project

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:24

"
Anyone who beleive that the US gave 7billion in aid to Palestine while giving 6billion each year to Israel is misguided."

Arafat looted the money that was given by the EU and the IMF...The US was smart enough not to throw money down Yasser's rat hole.
It's actually 3 Billion per year, and Israel is required to spend most of it with US companies. It's not money, it's in the form of grants.
The US gives double that amount annually to combined Arab nations, including Egypt, Jordan Kuwait, Qatar and the Emirates. (as if the oil rich Arabs need the money)

by Tom Ryan Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:41

Stop changing your point of view,

was it US aid as you originally said or not, also how could anyone have given this aid when there is no palestinian state ?

As regards the financial aid to ISrael, whether its aid or grants tied to us companies it is supporting an apartheid state, without the funding the israeli state would collapse, and why do you say that combined US aid to arab states is more than ISrael, so what, here they are just propping up dictators who have nothing to do with their people, what about bringing democracy to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc etc, the US wont do it cos the people would elect governments that stop supporting the US.

€3 billion per year to a rascist apartheid state is wrong , answer me this does israel have nuclear weapons?

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:52

"Stop changing your point of view,
was it US aid as you originally said or not,"

I know reading may be difficult at times but let me help you out. 7 Billion US dollars is the EQUIVALENT of what Arafat looted from his people...picky and ignorant at the same time!

by Tom Ryan Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:54

Sorry,

I misread your point, however could you respond to the question of Israeli nukes please?

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jun 09, 2005 15:59

"I misread your point, however could you respond to the question of Israeli nukes please?"

Masha'alllah!!!
(The Will of Allah -swt)

by Tom Ryan Thu Jun 09, 2005 16:08

Its actually insaallah!

You wont answer because you know why I ask, Israel has a nuclear programme that was built outside of international supervision. The US has a law which prohibits the governemnt giving aid to states that develop nuclear technology outside of agreed treaties.

Result; Both the US and Israel pretend that Israel dosnt have nuclear weapons to make US aid legal! this depsite Israel having the 4th largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

Oh yea and remember Vanunu, the guy that has spent 18 years in jail for revealing secrets of a non existent nuclear programme!!!!!!

Come on get real the US and Israel are corrupt and evil , €3billion a year in illegal aid because everyone turns a blind eye to it.

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jun 09, 2005 16:26

"Its actually insaallah!"


LMFAO!!!!!!

by Ali ibn Sharmootah Thu Jun 09, 2005 16:31

"You wont answer because you know why I ask, Israel has a nuclear programme that was built outside of international supervision."

Your question was answered...What don't you understand about "The Will of Allah (swt)?
Am I speaking to someone in the Engilsh as a second Language program?
No wonder you support the murderers of Palestine.

by J.Stewart Thu Jun 09, 2005 22:34

Nicolo, you are very articulate, a lovely writer, and use wonderful high-falutin' English that the Queen herself would bless. But none of that can hide the fact that you are thoroughly misinformed on so many issues.

I really don't know if I should even bother trying to refute what you say. Experience has taught me that so many Israel-haters (there, I didn't say JEW-haters! Better?) aren't really interested in the truth, especially if it doesn't conform with what you are determined to believe is the truth, facts be damned.

But heregoes...sigh...in the hope that just one person reading this might have the tiniest niggling feeling of "Hey, wait, maybe Israel isn't the epitome of evil after all..."

----1) you make the mistake that israel is a jewish state, Israel is a secular democracy with 20% of its population being non-jewish(1.2 million citizens of Israel)-----

Excuse me for not being more accurate, you are absolutely right. And in case you haven't noticed, you just scored a goal for the other team. Israel IS a secular democracy, the only one in the Middle East. I am not going to claim that Israeli Arabs are clutched to the bosom of their Israeli Jewish brethren with sweet nothings whispered in their ears, but I daresay most Israeli Arabs would stay put rather than move to any Arab country. Israeli Arabs are represented in the Knesset (Parliament), they hold high-ranking positions in government agencies, universities- you name it. Their women are not discriminated against, as opposed to Arab countries. They are afforded all the rights due to the Jewish citizens. Where are Jewish citizens of Arab countries (there are still a few Jews left in the Arab world) treated so well? On the contrary, most live with a lot of fear.

Even the non-citizens, the so-called Palestinians, get treated pretty well. Did you know that there is a growing phenomenon of Palestinian gays who move to Israel because if they stay in the territories they'll be murdered? They know if they go to Israel they'll be protected. And I have often read interviews of Palestinian prisoners who say they are treated much better in an Israeli prison than in a Palestinian prison. Go to any hospital and you'll see Jews and Arabs being treated equally, with the same quality of care. That's because Jews hold life in pretty high regard, no matter who it belongs to.

-----3) there are many instances of seized territory returning to the defeated, take the 1973 Arab/israeli war when israel occupied all of the Sinai, its had gone back to Egypt,
South lebanon occupied by israel since 1978 has gone back to Lebanon. Look at the Balkans in the 1990'2 etc etc----------

Now this is funny! Your main examples of land won in war being given back are BY THE ISRAELIS! Yes- the Israelis are pretty much the only ones who do this crazy, unheard-of thing because they want peace so badly.

-----------4)Critisism of Israel is not Jew hating, many international organisation have documented human rights abuses etc in the Occupied Territories and criticise Israel.-------

Ah yes, the old refrain. We don't hate the Jews! Only those nasty old Israelis! Jeez, how lame of an argument is that? That argument's so old it smells! How much would you like to bet that if it wasn't the Jews- sorry, the Israelis- perpetrating these alleged horrors against the poor, suicide bombing Palestinians, that if it was some other nation...lets just for the sake of argument call them "The Bad Guys"....on the other side- how much would you like to bet that no one would blink an eye?

I don't think people around the world are really so worried about the Palestinians- this is just a fantastic, legitimized opportunity to express some Jew-hatred (including by many self-hating Jews) You can deny that til you're blue in the face, but thems the facts. Why don't you focus your energies on REAL persecution being wreaked by other nations the world over? Have you ever complained about the way the Chinese would make the mentally and physically disabled "disappear" whenever officials from other countries would come to visit? How about what they're doing to the Tibetans? How about the abominable non-stop raping going on in Darfur? All of those acts seem a bit more wicked than building the "apartheid wall" that was erected only after the last intifada started, only to keep suicide bombers out- and it's doing a great job! Here here to the wall- actually, most of it's a fence, only a small part is a wall, but it looks better in the media so they always use the wall part in their reports.

-----Please know you facts before caling people Jew Haters because you only end up looking foolish. In 1948 when the state of Israel was created the UN declared the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza to be Palestine and it was so until 1967 and has been occupied since 1967, even America considers these to be occupiedterritories, the entire world does---------------

No- please know YOUR facts. In 1948, everything you said was true- and those areas would have been Palestine and stayed Palestine all along- except for the mostly ignored fact that the Arab world never accepted partition- that almost the day after the state of Israel was created, the Arab world declared war on that tiny country. There are many links out there (sorry I don't have them at my fingertips, but they're out there in cyberspace) where you can read the actual words of the various Arab leaders telling the Palestinians to leave their homes, their towns, so that the Arab armies could push the Jews into the sea. When all the Jews would be murdered, then they could come back to their homes.

Well, the Arab world didn't expect tiny Israel to kick their collective ass, and the Palestinians were screwed. The Israeli government was willing to work with them, give them homes, but those Palestinians weren't willing to negotiate with Jews- er, Israelis. And of course, not one Arab country offered to help their brethren. They've preferred to let them stay refugees all those years, living in those horrible camps, rather than offerering them any kind of assistance. It makes the Palestinian cause look much better, more underdog-ish, to show them in those camps. The sad thing is that they don't need to be there and never have.

Israel had to take those territories- they were being ATTACKED from those territories. Any other country would have done the same thing.

And those remarks you and others made about the Palestinian Authority not really getting so much aid, and Arafat living in a rat hole, etc. ...well, the PA has received at least a billion dollars (not an exaggeration) mostly from European countries. I never said it was from the US. The Europeans have been happy to pour money into the PA for years, not caring that it was being used to finance terrorism. True, Arafat himself didn't use much of it. The little bastard, who's thankfully dead, didn't spend it on himself. Much of it went to the members of his corrupt government and to finance terrorism The lion's share went to his bitch wife who used it to finance her and their daughter's mega-extravagant lifestyle in Paris. She took so much money that was intended to help the Palestinians- the greedy bitch argued with the PA over how much she'd get every year after Terror-fat died, and finally settled for a measly $2 million per year. Poor thing. How will she ever live on that?

Doesn't anyone care that all this money went straight down the toilet? If I was a Palestinian I'd be pretty pissed that none of it went for infrastructure. I personally know of a woman living in Jerusalem, who opened her door one day to a Palestinian woman begging for money for an operation for her brother. When the Israeli woman asked her why she didn't go to the PA for the money, the woman answered that she tried, but the PA told her that they don't have any money. She has to go to the Jews for help! And the kind of people they are, she'll surely get it.

Terror-fat...what a great leader. By now there could have been a viable, productive Palestinian state. Barak offered him almost all of the territories and he turned the offer down flat. No counter-offer, no negotiation- just the intifada. Which was what he intended all along. He never wanted to really help his people and give them a state. He just wanted to keep sailing on that cult of death he loved so much.

Nicolo, I'm sorry I can't comment on every (false) point you've made, but I did want to mention that when you say that Israel hasn't been following the road map to peace, etc...I can only laugh, because the Palestinians have NEVER followed the one thing they have to do- STOP TERROR!!! They chose war, and now they bitch when they have to face the consequences of starting that war.

Hey, you never told me what you think of Palestinian parents hoping that their children grow up to be suicide bombers instead of doctors and lawyers.

By the way, that ridiculous statement made by that other guy about Israeli soldiers shooting schoolkids at their desks is one of the most pathetic lies I've ever heard. If you believe bullshit like that, then there's really no point in trying to talk to you anymore. Have a nice life.

by Barry Thu Jun 09, 2005 22:47

To a defeated people . They legged it out of there with Hizballah resistance fighters hot on their heels . Hizballah kicked their theiving Zionist asses clean out of the place . They whupped them , they beat the living shite clean out of them . And Hizballah never let up until the last one was gone and made sure there was no orderly withdrawal but a total rout .
Israel left that part of southern Lebanon simply because they couldnt hold onto it . They were miltarily defeated .

The bastards .

by Nordie Thu Jun 09, 2005 23:14

' don't think people around the world are really so worried about the Palestinians- this is just a fantastic, legitimized opportunity to express some Jew-hatred (including by many self-hating Jews) '

LOL

by jeff Fri Jun 10, 2005 15:02

The pro-Israelis are always harping on about being a democracy, et,etc. That still does not excuse land seizures and it does not especially excuse IDF soldiers taking pot shots at civilians, including children, for fun. Israel had potential, but it is destroying itself by it's own deeds.Most of the outside civilsed world won't like Islamic fundamentalism, but they won't like Israel any more if the Israeli government continues with these actions.

by Yon Fri Jun 10, 2005 18:42

IDF soldiers don't take pot shots at civilians, including children, for fun.
Sorry.

by kintama Sat Jun 11, 2005 02:06

Yon you are just being ridiculous . March 2004 . on the 4th child killed by IAF shell in Rafah, on the 7th shelling of residential area of Gaza 14 dead including 4 children and 80 wounded of which 26 were children , on the 8th child killed by tank fire while working with family on agricultural land. I could keep at similar 3 day events all night.
The IAF without fear of sanctions from the US have pursued a murderous campaign without regard for civilians. In a grotesque irony the IAF now display many of the traits of the Nazi SS.

by Workers Unite Sat Jun 11, 2005 06:16

The offer that Barak made to the Palestinians, was worse than the travesty of the Oslo accords that the Palestinians did unfortunately accept.

The bantustans that were offered by Barak were worse than those in South africa. It was less territory than was offered under Oslo. virtually condeming the Palestinians to ghettos, as more settlements were planned to be built.

The palestinians would have no access to the water resources. The Barak sleezy land deal offer is not much different than what the Israelis are doing now by stealing more land with the aparthied wall.

They couldn't get this territory by making a deal with the Palestinians, because the Palestinians knew that this was a dirty deal, so now the zionist state of Israel is imposing it on them with the aparthied wall. for more info about zionism go to the following website.

by Jewish and Proud Mon Jun 13, 2005 16:37

You may condemn Israel and yet the Jewish Telegraph showed pictures of Ireland supporters sporting Palestinian flags and giving Nazi Salutes to the Israelis and, astonishingly, to a Jewish Ireland fan who was wearing a skullcap.

by BS Spotter Mon Jun 13, 2005 16:44

If that was true you would show us a link to the photo, would you not?

by the avenging angel Mon Jun 13, 2005 16:50

... would it not be fitting ?
http://www.w3ar.com/a.php?k=646

by Noel Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:27

http://www.jewishtelegraph.co.uk/nat_1.html

by Nicolo Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:31

Ah Noel,

What a surprise

I have read the article and its posted already on a different thread,

the only problem is that its a total fantasy, the only ones looking for trouble were the israeli supporters, the quotes are totally ficticious and anyone interested in the truth should just ask the cops about what happened, the pic in question is more a reflection of the guys attitudes to the cops than anything else, its pure lies but then again what do you expect from israel

yes yes no go on pretending you know it all and making sarcastic remarks

bnei zahnot

by Nicolo Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:32

Ps

Most people know the nazi salute was with the right hand, god knows what that fool was trying to do but it wasnt the nazi salute

by NETUREI KARTA Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:36

For the truth about Zionism check out

www.nkusa.org

by C sna C Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:43

"Dublin was turned into a cauldron of intimidation and vitriol."

i.e; by "Nazis" (one idiot giving a facsist salute to three Israeli shit-stirrers who taunted 500 demonstrators) and the "IRA" (a few dozen Shinners with placards).

So what evidence are you going to fabricate next , footage of the usual Saturday night carnage in Temple Bar?

by NETUREI KARTA Mon Jun 13, 2005 17:46

agreed this pathethic attempt to distort the facts is sickening

The truth is coming Noel, people are turning against this apartheid state

by raymond deane - ipsc Mon Jun 13, 2005 22:05 supportpalestine at ireland dot com P.O. Box 9124, Dublin 1 01-6770253

In fact Amnesty International does repeatedly condemn the targeting of civilians by Palestinians.

Israel's defenders have a simple formula: those who criticise Israel are biased (even if they quote chapter and verse of international law, which is 100% on the side of the Palestinians - which means, of course, that international law is biased), those who defend Israel are living in truth, even if their every assertion is repeatedly refuted by fair-minded Israeli Jewish historians.

Once again, the question is dodged: did those who drone on and on about Palestinian suicide bombings support the justice of the Palestinian cause before the first suicide bombings in the mid 1990s? Of course they didn't - they supported then as they do now the oppressor against the oppressed, the rapist against the rapist's victim (and victims do sometimes lash out in unacceptable ways).

The "IDF" is merely a gigantic extension of Unit 101, the death-squad set up by Ariel Sharon more than half a century ago (which makes him something of a record-holder among butchers in power worldwide). There are, of course, honourable Israeli soldiers and pilots - but they don't fight in the illegally occupied territories, nor do they agree to drop 1-tonne bombs on crowded apartment buildings because they're trying to "exterminate" one particular person.

As for 1948, Israeli historians have established beyond controversy (except among the more dimwitted and fanatical rightist backers of Israel) that the Arab armies intervened only after the ethnic cleansing and massacres (e.g. Deir Yassin) had started. After 1967 people like Menachem Begin and General Moshe Dayan were so disgusted by the suggestion that the Arabs had attacked first that they bragged repeatedly about how Israel had never been under threat, and that it hand chosen to go to war. It was a war that had been prepared for years, against disunited Arab armies that were seriously outnumbered and badly armed.

I repeat - these facts have been established by Israeli historians, sometimes (e.g. Benny Morris) going against the grain of their own Zionism.

by Tom Ryan Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:20

below is an email exchange from myself and the editor of this appaling piece of crap from the Jewish Telegraph

It does israel no favours to have idits like this writing for them. Noel if you are out there what is your view on this





Dear Mr Ryan,

You are indeed correct. The protest was nothing like we portrayed. It was
far worse. I was there and saw it myself. I was threatened both verbally and
physically as were two of my colleagues, told to go back to where we
belonged and much more.

Best wishes,

Paul Harris,
Editor
--
Paul Harris
Editor/Managing Director
Jewish Telegraph Group of Newspapers
Telegraph House
11 Park Hill, Bury Old Road,
Prestwich, Manchester M25 0HH,
UK.
Tel: +44 (0)161-740 9321
DDI: +44 (0)161-741 2633
Fax: +44 (0)161-740 5555
ISDN: +44 (0)161-720 8120
Email: [email protected]
Web: http://jewishtelegraph.com



> Dear editor,
>
> I am writing to complain about your coverage of the recent events in
> Dublin.
> i was at the macth on Saturday 4th June and saw the protest you
> mentioned. I
> cant recognise the site you pain from the reality. The only trouble was
> actually the passing Israeli fans who shouted abuse, I feel the police
> should have dont better to keep the groups apart .
>
> Also your references to IRA members and IRA targetting supports is way
> out
> of line, I saw people from the socialist party, green party, aswell as
> Sinn
> Fein, many people seemded to just join the parade as it passed.
>
> I feel that your reporting is deliberately misleading and untrue as
> anyone
> in Dublin on the day will tell you.
>
> It was not nice to see sport and politics mixed like this but it
> certainly
> was nothing like was portrayed in your paper.
>
> Finally many respected journalists and politicans have written on the
> need
> to debate the Issue of Israel and Palestine and feel that a protest was
> needed and welcomed. Israel must not be afraid of protest, a democracy
> should welcome protest and not hide behind false reporting and false
> religious hatred.
>
> I presume you wont publiseh this or reply to it but I support a
> peaceful
> settlement in the region for all sides and feel false reporting gets us
> no
> where
>
> Tom Ryan

by J. Stewart Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:49

You Israel-bashers are frightening in your ferocity. When so many people sympathize with a nation that cheers and hands out candy to children in celebration of innocent people being murdered means that something is very wrong with this world.

Would you also agree that it's fine to hide near a playground in Hebron and with a long-range rifle murder an Israeli baby?

How about the joyful celebrations when a mob lynched 2 Israeli soldiers who had made a wrong turn into Ramallah? The 2 bodies were dumped out of an upper-storey window to the ground, and the killers proudly displayed their blood-stained hands to the frenzied crowd below.

Then there were the terrorists who forced an Israeli car off the road, approached it and shot dead at point blank range the pregnant woman and her 4 small children inside.

And these horrors are just the tip of the iceberg; there are too many more out there to count. The suicide bombings alone are disgustingly plentiful.

Lets just pretend that the Palestinians are totally right in their claim to the territories. They're not, but just for the sake of argument lets say they are. Would that justify these murderous, vile acts?

Ehud Barak offered Terror-fat almost all of the territories in exchange for peace- if Terrorfat truly thought it was an unfair offer, why didn't he come up with a counter-offer? Start some sort of negotiations? Being offered 97% of what you want is a very good starting point for negotiations. But no, he didn't say, "No, that's no good- we want x y and z." No, instead he gave the terrorists the go-ahead to unleash these horrors on the Israelis.

Killing a baby. Killing a pregnant woman and her children. Ripping 2 soldiers apart with their bare hands.

What kind of human beings commit such atrocities?

And if you have no problem with the celebrations when Israelis are murdered, how about the unabashed glee, jumping and hand-clapping after the World Trade Center attacks?

And these are supposed to be the Israelis' peace partners. Unbelievable.

If any of you believe that if Israel gives back the territories- which they are stupidly in the process of doing- that the Palestinians will just stop all of these horrific murders, you're more deluded than I thought.

by Nordie Tue Jun 14, 2005 13:33

'Terror-fat '

The world of comedy lost a true star when the world of racial terrorism gained you, J. S.

by Nordie Tue Jun 14, 2005 13:36

'And if you have no problem with the celebrations when Israelis are murdered, how about the unabashed glee, jumping and hand-clapping after the World Trade Center attacks? '

Yes. What was it with those Zionists arrested in New York over that? You'd think they were happy about America being attacked by Islamic terrorists thereby strengthening the Zionist terrorists hand or something equally as mad. A scary world indeed.

by Barry Tue Jun 14, 2005 14:35

those mysterious israelis jumping up and down celebrating when the planes hit .

Very mysterious those palestinian kids shown celebrating by an israeli tv crew as well . Turned out later on the reporters were throwing the kids sweets and getting them to cheer for the cameras . But sure they got the images they wanted for tv and the rest is history .

by Devil Dog Tue Jun 14, 2005 15:48

the adults who did the same Barry? Were they celebrating getting free sweets as well?

by know the truth Tue Jun 14, 2005 15:59

its been proven that all those pictures were actually made up or footage used from other occassions.

Just like with the invasion of Afgahanistan picures of US troops were actually Australian from file footage and with iraq sky news aired a report of a nuclear sub launching an attack with crusie missle , however they forgot to tell people that the exclusive footage of the attack was from a training excercise in britain.

Dont allways believe the media , I mean look at the article in the Jewish telegraph and the reply from the editor, its amazing the lenghts these zionists will go to to hide the truth.

And now Devil Dog i suppose you will say you were at the demo in Dublin and that the article in the jewish Telegraph is an accurate portrayal of the events

Zionism does not equal Judasim
Zionist = Bnei Zahnot

by eastern eye Tue Jun 14, 2005 17:09

"mysterious israelis jumping up and down celebrating when the planes hit "?
Where do you have that?
Are you aware that in the tween buildings died many Jews, amongst whom not a few Israelis?

"its been proven that all those pictures were actually made up or footage used from other occassions".
Has it? by whom? do you have any proof its all made up?

Zionism is equal to Judaism. Zionism is the Jewish national movement.
No more, no less.
Most Jews during history were Zionists (though they didn't call themselves at that name. would you ask them if they agree with the idea they would agree).
Flaging with little excentric group as NETUREI KARTA, who don't see other people beside them as Jews (or in other words, think they are the only Jews that exist) won't help you much.

by the way, it's BNEI ZONOT. no ZAHNOT.
If you swear in hebrew at least do it properly.

by J. Stewart Tue Jun 14, 2005 22:45

-----its been proven that all those pictures were actually made up or footage used from other occassions. --------------

Proven? Bullshit. I saw that footage, those Palestinians couldn't contain themselves. When interviewed, they made specific reference to the 9/11 tragedy, so don't try to bullshit people into thinking it was made-up or prior footage.

It got so bad that the PA came and ordered people not to celebrate anymore because it made them look to the world like the bloodthirsty creatures they are.

My original point was that it's not just the murder of Jews that makes these people celebrate- there were people from all over the world, of all religions, in the World Trade Center, and STILL they celebrated. Doesn't that tell you anything?

by J. Stewart Wed Jun 15, 2005 07:47

I would like to apologize for the use of the words "bloodthirsty creatures" in my previous post. I don't want anyone to think that I believe that ALL Palestinians are like that. There are many among them who truly want peace and are against the murder of innocent Israelis.

But for those who commit these acts and those who derive pleasure from hearing about these acts, my words stand.