First Local Election results for SP

by Psuedo-Psepologist Mon May 09, 2005 14:42

This goes to prove that the conditions aren't right for a new party of the left. I mean come on if the only true socialist party in Ireland can only get less than 2% in a ward then what chance have the usual suspects.

by A Mon May 09, 2005 16:16

Paul Dale Soc Eliminated

by Interested Mon May 09, 2005 16:39

It's showing 2.3% over the two wards counted in Fermanagh, which means that Dale will have polled 4% or a bit more in the ward he stood in. By the standards of the left in the North that isn't bad at all.

by A Mon May 09, 2005 16:46

The SP couldn't hold a socialist seat.

by fermanagh socialist Mon May 09, 2005 17:07

How many FP votes did Dale get?

by News Mon May 09, 2005 17:48

Paul Dale got 406 first preference votes which may be between 4 - 5%

by SPer Tue May 10, 2005 15:24

Jim Barbour (Socialist Party) got 175 1st preference votes which is 1.9% in Belfast Laganbank

by Mill it Aunt Tue May 10, 2005 15:34

Eight more first preferences than in the assembly elections (with a smaller electorate). Progess!!

by News Tue May 10, 2005 16:16

Enniskillen
Paul Dale - Socialist Party
406 votes - 4.65%

by statistics Tue May 10, 2005 17:53

Both the Belfast candidates scored the same, or more, than in the Assembly, while standing in less that 1/2 Assembly area - that does mark progress however slow and however much some readers here refuse to recognise it.

by Frustrated Tue May 10, 2005 19:36 Belfast

Okay, no anti-sectarian party did great in these elections - the SF/SDLP - DUP/UUP battle meant there was a very tight squeeze on everyone else. But, apart from Paul Dale in Enniskillen where he was going after retiring Davy Kettyles's seat (and therefore his 4-5% was a drop from Kettyles 10-12%), the SP people did less than half as well as SEA everywhere they stood.

Surely this means that it is worth the left getting together, at least for elections? I don't know how it works in Derry but anyone I talk to from there says the SEA is laidback, not a bearpit of sectarian angst. I have been following their election campaign on the website and it has been really good - raising issues about police brutality in Protestant areas (altho the video is really hard to see), really taking on Ryanair bigtime and pushing non-payment of water charges all the time. I was very impressed....hope it doesn't turn out that they just have a really good website but nothing else!!!

by Not Frustrated Tue May 10, 2005 20:07

I think that they are good results considering the sectarian squeeze. I think that SP's vote in Enniskillen is very good as is SWP vote in Foyle Westminster. Paul Dale was always going to find it hard to retain Kettlyes seat an did a good job. Eamon McCann did well in Westminster election considering the tight SDLP/SF battle and the voting system. I'm not of the opinion that this means the left should "get together". Why? There are serious differences between the SP and SWP on a range of issues. Just weeks ago the SWP were saying the IRA are a "revolutionary army".

by Floatilla Tue May 10, 2005 22:09

The differences between both the SWP and the SP are obvious. However, I think people calling for this new "left-unity" miss an important point.

The aim of the SP is to help build the conditions for a new mass workers party that the Marxist left can operate as part of. The SWP I believe have a similar aim, but do not understand how to go about it. They are trying to gain instant success by bringing together all the old tired forces of the left under one liberal-left banner. They do this under the impression that despite our differences, we are stronger as one than we are apart.

For Marxists attempting to build the conditions for a new mass workers party, this is an important argument. I don't believe that the SWP's arguments hold weight. When they are criticised by the SP they accuse the SP of political sectarianism. The way I see it, the SP seem to be open and honest with their criticisms, whilst the SWP refuse to politically polemicise against the SP, for fear of damaging "the movement", whatever that is.

The other argument has to be that a new mass workers party, as defined by Trotskyism, must be born from struggle and be made up of new layers of activists brought into creating such a party through struggle. These forces do not yet exist, and must be created through working towards mass political struggle.

by badman Tue May 10, 2005 22:29

One has Kevin, the other has Kieran. Is there anything else?

by Tired Old Lefty Tue May 10, 2005 23:05

Who are 'all the old tired forces of the left', that the SWP want bring together? Does the SP not count as the tired old left? Can you name one left organisation which is in an alliance with the SWP, other than the SP who are the only left group to work in a formal alliance with them in the IAWM. This insulting, sectarian language epitomises an arrogant element within the SP who term all other socialist outside themselves and the SWP 'usual suspects', 'tired old left'. Of course the SP had nothing but praise for the 'usual suspects' of the WCA, ISN and WSM when they needed them during their active days in the ahti-bin tax campaign.

by Mark P - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Tue May 10, 2005 23:24

You are confusing a number of things here.

The Socialist Party will cooperate with anyone on the left for specific goals around specific issues, in so far as we think it will make our campaigning work more effective.
I have a lot of respect for a number of long term political activists, both independents and members of other political groups. And I have very little respect for some others.

All of that is well and good but it is quite different from thinking that the forces are there for a broad political alliance of the left to have any impact. It doesn't clarify anything to confuse this issue with the above.

When it is said that some "left unity" meeting or other consists basically of activists who have been around for decades that isn't an insult to those activists - it's a point about the lack of interest in these initiatives from new forces or even new individuals at the current time. The problem isn't that long term activists are there, the problem is that only long term activists are there.

by Floatilla Wed May 11, 2005 00:16

I would hope that no-one in the SP would be in the belief that the SP will be the only ever force on the left wing to intitate change. I think the example of the bin tax is a bad one, personally. We're not talking about single-issue campaigns - we're talking about coalitions or new parties of the left that act upon several issues. And in reply to the question from Tired Old Lefty, generally the forces that exist today on the left-wing in Northern Ireland do consist of the same people that were there five years ago. This is the same situation with all the left parties. Of course, this is not a sweeping statement and many young people as well as workers have moved into struggle - we can see this through the makeup of the SP and the SWP who do have new activists on either side. However, we have not seen a significant movement towards left-wing politics in Northern Ireland, something that has been proven by the election results, however positive for the left they may be. That is the fundamental point for Trotskyists.

When I talk about the tired old forces of the left, I think you can take this as the left in general. Although progress has been made, as we have seen by the SP's and SEA's election results, the conditions are not there for a new mass workers party. This has been recognised by some on the left, and has not been by others, who believe in a very simplistic notion that bringing together all the existing left groups will result in a step forward. I believe that such simplistic thinking would result in a step backwards in the long term.

There will be new opportunities to build a new party of the working class. The impending imposition of water charges will undoubtably bring new forces into struggle. It is the role and task of socialists to bring these new forces to a socialist conclusion. That is how left unity in this country will truly be acheived, by pushing a Trotskyist message - not by fudging positions and taking up a liberal-left coalition for electoral benefit, which may work in the short term but will eventually fail when looked at from a Marxist viewpoint.

by Paddy Power Wed May 11, 2005 16:09

Typical. Fucking typical. Someone mentions left unity and we all start to disagree with one another. There have been more debates on indymedia about the differences between the SP and the SWP than I care to remember. Maybe indymedia should just become a site devoted to arguments between embittered trots.

I've been a socialist for three decades and have been pleading down through the years with various comrades of mine on the left to agree on some form of minimum program and organise a broad based coalition in ever village, town and hamlet in the north to stop the march of the sectarian parties. just for the sake of working people you'd think they could put even a tiny wee bit of their differences behind them? that of course is far too simple. i already know - because i've been in this argument hundreds of times - what each group will answer this suggestion with.

the workers party will say that they are the party of the workers because they had loads of mates in Moscow so why should we need a coalition?

the socialist party will say unity is a good idea but there is no point in us putting differences behind us. which is the point of a coalition or alliance, so they will never be up for it.

the swp will demand instant revolution tomorrow morning and might form an alliance if they are allowed to run it.

eamonn mccann will get very angry on TV, write nice columns for the belfast tele and wave his hands around alot in dodgy black clothing.

mark langhammar will encourage us to join a party that won't stand for election.

and peter hadden will be a right bastard.

Left unity among this lot?! Catch yourself on.

It has been sad to see northern ireland slowly fall to the state it is in today where we have the political wing of the rosary beads brigade and a bunch of reactionary rednecks on tractors as the two largest parties. And when you take into account that the immediate 'moderate' alternative to them was trimble or that inarticulate buffoon up in derry it doesn't look good.

Fuck this. I'm off.

by john throne - labors militant voice Wed May 11, 2005 21:22

I can only conclude that it is a deliberate attempt to obscure the issues when the SP and others on this thread talk about the impossiblity of left unity in the North at this time. As if this is the only alternative or the correct alternative. In some other contributions to this thread I have argued that left unity was not possible at this time rather it was question of the SP and the SWP, the WP, and any other community, non-sectarian based candidates in the North coming together around a clear program that was based on the specific problems facing the working class. That is coming together for these elections not in a united left front, not in an effort at left unity, but as a united workers front on specific demands on specific issues. I do not believe that left unity is possible at this time. But I also do not believe that the only alternative is the situation of the SP candidates and others standing alone and refusing to have anything to do with any others and justifying this by saying that there is not a mass movement. This damages the working class movement and the potential for any movement forward against sectarianism and for working class unity. John Throne

by madge Wed May 11, 2005 21:43

To Paddy power - you form the "PPP" and I'll join it - that's has to be the most succinct analysis of left politics that I've seen in a long time - with none of the usual bullshit and theology (yes I use that word deliberately)- where do I sign up?!

by Mark P Wed May 11, 2005 22:11

John, the Socialist Party attempted before the last Assembly elections to put together an anti-cuts defend public services slate. The idea was to present a united front of groups like hospital campaigns, firefighters etc as well as socialist groupings.

For various reasons this didn't work out, the Omagh hospitals campaign chose a less radical candidate than we might have hoped for and in the end didn't want to get involved. Other potential allies who were willing to stand proved to be thin on the ground.

by New to Me Thu May 12, 2005 11:45

Which socialist groupings were invited?

by Mark P Thu May 12, 2005 12:21

The idea was initially raised with various campaign groups and individuals. They were the key to making a slate worthwhile, rather than just creating a socialist alliance by the back door. Getting the small left groups together was not a primary consideration.

If there had been agreement in principle from other forces then the issue of the participation of groups like the Workers Party, the SEA or the Communist Party would have arisen. At that time those groups were discussing an SWP initiative for a more narrowly based "socialist slate", something the Socialist Party had no interest in for reasons explained in previous postings.

For one of a number of articles about this at the time see www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/voicejuly03/7.htm

by Chekov Thu May 12, 2005 12:49

"The idea was initially raised with various campaign groups and individuals. They were the key to making a slate worthwhile, rather than just creating a socialist alliance by the back door. Getting the small left groups together was not a primary consideration."

A handy rule of thumb for electoral politics is to always assume that each party attempts to maximise their own control and influence (it's almost a truism).

From this point of view, you can interpret the above claim as the following:

"we were interested in alliances with people who might have attracted significant votes, but were not possessed of a party machine that could challenge our control of the alliance."

I do love Occam.

by Mark P Thu May 12, 2005 13:33

That's not a use of Occam's razor, unless you confuse simplicity with cynicism.

Far from looking to control a "Defend Public Services" slate, the idea was to make one as loose as possible. Each component would stand under its own name and with its own programme and demands. Doing so in a loose alliance, releasing common publicity and so on was intended as a way to push the issue of public services onto a mainstream political agenda normally dominated by sectarian rivalries.

Raising the idea was also intended to encourage groups of workers involved in struggles to step into the electoral arena, a very small first step towards the kind of new workers party we want to see.

Other small left groups weren't the people we approached first because they weren't the people whose participation mattered that much one way or the other. There's nothing overly complex about that, Chekov.

by Bamber Thu May 12, 2005 13:33

Name the only left political organisation who is involved in a formal alliance with the SWP?

Hint think of the IAWM

by Mark P Thu May 12, 2005 13:39

Never mind the IAWM, you might as well bring up some left bodies in trade unions, the anti-bin tax campaigns, the Alliance Against Nice and a thousand and one other similar groups. There are and have been a very large number of organisations and campaigns where the Socialist Party, the SWP and others on the left have all been involved, with varying degrees of cooperation or tension.

You confuse working with people in campaigns or on single issues with forming a generalised political alliance with them. We will work with any force on the left in a campaign or an an issue if we think it will strengthen our campaigning activity. That doesn't mean that we think something akin to a socialist alliance would achieve anything in current circumstances.

by lakesider Thu May 12, 2005 13:43

No offence to those who stood in the recent elections - anyone who did so is deserving of respect for taking their courage in their hands - but the results for the SP prove that it is a marginal force. Furthermore, in relation to Enniskillen, Dale did not in fact run as an official SP candidate but even so he managed to lose most of the vote that formerly went to Kettyles. Finally, I would question the extent to which Kettyles vote could be regarded as a "socialist" vote given the said individuals past record on the Council and elsewhere. Mainly remembered in fact for his intervention in the 1981 election to take votes from Sands.

by Anorak Thu May 12, 2005 13:51

Westminster by-election, 9 April 1981 (one seat)
Bobby Sands (Anti-H-Block/Armagh Political Prisoner) 30,493 (51.2%)
Harry West (Ulster Unionist Party) 29,046 (49.8%)
Anti-H-Block/Armagh Political Prisoner majority: 1,446; electorate 72,283; spoilt votes: 3,280; votes cast: 86.9%

by Chekov Thu May 12, 2005 14:02

I really don't want to drag the discussion off topic, and I am sort of being tongue in cheek. But I should point out that my 'cynical' view of electoral politics is also a powerful predictive tool. It allows me to predict, in advance, the possibility of every putative alliance forming and so far it has a 100% accuracy rate. This is why I think it is a very valid use of Occam. If it fails at some time in the future, I will reevaluate it, but in the meantime it spares me the trouble of reading 20 page political documents about the soviet union / the national question / whatever and why party A's attitude to it means that they can't ally themselves with party B.

I suggest, in particular, that our 2 John's (meehan and throne) consider the theory. It would save us all a lot of bandwidth.

by Mark P Thu May 12, 2005 14:12

Given that Paul Dale's manifesto and leaflets came carrying the Socialist Party logo on the front and that he appeared on the ballot paper as a Socialist Party candidate I'm a bit confused about where exactly you got the idea that he was not an official Socialist Party candidate.

The Socialist Party would have significant political differences with Davy Kettyles, but he is someone who has always identified himself as a socialist and who has sought to transcend the sectarian divide. Davy is a very popular figure locally with a big personal vote and in my view Paul did very well to take 406 votes as a first time candidate for a small party.

As for pointing out that the Socialist Party is electorally marginal in the North, well that's hardly some big secret is it? The whole left is electorally marginal, the SEA, the Workers Party and everyone else. Elections in the North are still primarily a sectarian headcount and it is difficult for independent working class politics to get a hearing.

The strengths of the Socialist Party in the North are primarily in the trade unions. Socialist Youth too has had its successes, in particular the school student walk outs against the war in Iraq. But, yes in the greater scheme of things, and in particular electorally, we are marginal.

by Mark P Thu May 12, 2005 14:18

Socialist Party
Belfast – Laganbank 175
Belfast – Pottinger 163
Cookstown 84
Enniskillen 406
Total 828 4 candidates – average 212

Socialist Environmental Alliance
Derry – Cityside 182
Derry – Northland (1) 353
Derry – Northland (2) 221
Derry – Waterside 194
Derry – Waterside Rural (E McCann) 371
Total 1,321 Average over 5 candidates 264

Workers Party
Belfast – Laganbank 107
Belfast – Lower Falls 314
Belfast – Oldpark 60
Belfast – Pottinger 105
Downpatrick 97
Sperrin 102
Total 765 Average 6 candidates 124

And if you count the NI Women's Coalition because of the Communist Party input:

NI Womens Coalition
Ballyholme 738
Total 738

by Angry Thu May 12, 2005 17:37

Lakesider total pissed off by your statement that Paul Dale was not an official Socialist Party candidate - what do you mean? He was a candidate for the Socialist Party and that is a fact. Regards the support we got from Davy Kettyles also don't see your point. Davy is an ex-stickie and a left. We welcomed his support but Davy will not be joining the SP as we have many political differences.

by Sticky Thu May 12, 2005 18:21

How did Davy take votes off Sands?

by SPer Thu May 12, 2005 19:00

I find it very strange that someone is under the impression that Paul Dale was not a SP candidate. I actually campaigned in that election, on all the posters 'Socialist Party' was very clear, all leaflets and manifestoes clearly stated Paul was an SP candidate. If in doubt have a look at the SP website where there are copies of manifestoes etc.

Is it not very obvious he's a SP candidate!?

by indie-soc Thu May 12, 2005 19:07

That image has been clearly photoshopped!

:P

by Sper Thu May 12, 2005 19:28

No, it was scanned on a very bad scanner

by SPer Thu May 12, 2005 19:31

http://www.geocities.com/socialistparty/pdf/PDManifesto.pdf

Have a look at this manifesto which was sent to every house in Enniskillen. Obviously he's not very good at concealing his SP candidacy!

by indie-soc Thu May 12, 2005 19:37

hence the :P

the 'image has been photoshopped' argument is standard internt protocol for dismissing an image you don't want to believe.

by Leftist Fri May 13, 2005 20:48

There is no description for the SP's results other than catastrophic. 30 years activity - and a derisory vote. It is futile to claim a better response on the streets as a sign of growth - it only resembles the orchestra on the Titanic, who kept on playing while their vessel sank beneath them. The material of the SP on their English results, and Hadden's material on those in NI, are exercises in comic futility rather than analysis.

What the result demonstrate is the futility of sect building, and its utter irrelevance for the working class. Almost all groups and people on the left adhere to some form of sect building mentality - we have all the answers; we have the right programme; building our organisation is the key to the future. What this sectarian mentality actually accomplishes is to create a movement of fervent true believers (albeit, a very small one - what is it - 30 or so SP members in the North?), but at the expense of real influence among wider groups.

I also think that Peter Hadden needs to reflect (although of course he won't) on his personal responsibiliy for this mess. He has pissed off everyone else on the left who has ever heard of him, destroyed many of his own lieutenants, and kept the SP in a state of ferment and sectarian isolation over many years, To what end?????? None, really,

It is time to move on from the shibolleths of Trotskyism. Time to recognise how much they were influenced by stalinism. Time to consider a genuine socialist movement ready for the 21st century rather than the 19th. Belfast in 2005 is not Petrograd circa 1917.

by ? Fri May 13, 2005 20:55

Thats great advice from a hurler on the ditch! Please enlighten us more, you have an opportunity now to explain exactly how you think a working class movement for change can be built in this country so lets see your thoughts and ideas.

by sper Sun May 15, 2005 04:01

ever heard of the water charges, bin charges, gama? no other group in ireland is even close to the influence of the sp in ireland. Its Very small but there is local elected reps in dubin and cork and joe higgins as well as being one of the hardest working and respected tds in the dail won 5.5 % in dublin in the euro elections. the sp in ireland has probably more clout than for example respect in england and especially since the bin charges and the gama dispute has won respect (not necessarily support yet) from thousands of irish workers. When the other left groups win this respect we'll see about unity.

by Tired Old Leftie Sun May 15, 2005 22:07

The arrogance displayed by 'sper' is truly breathtaking. He correctly points out that the SP has done solid groundwork and earned real respect for its work on the bin charges, gama, etc. while acknowledging that despite its relative size within the left it is still a small organisation. Then in a sweeping statement he rubbishes the work of others on the left in a dismissive manner: So heres a question to 'sper':have you forgotten the dedicated activists from other left organisations (and none ) who put so much into the bin tax and water tax campaigns? Have you forgotten the fact that members of SF, ISN (and it has to be admitted, one SWPer) went to prison over the bin tax? Have you forgotten the immense hard work that other left activists, including WSM and WCA, put into this campaign?

I have a lot of time for most members of the SP but its this type of arrogance makes me very suspicious of their supposed commitment to a new workers party (once the conditions are right). Im beggining to believe that they really see themselves as the one true party and that all others on the left are just 'tired old lefties'. As the old cliche goes, pride or more accurately hubris, comrades, comes before a fall.

by co Mon May 16, 2005 02:20

I find the tone of spers comments out of place as well. To be fair the sp works well with other groups and gives credit where due. Better to judge them by their actions rather than short points made on indymedia I think.