Indymedia Italia Banned by Italian Government

by regis glais Fri Jan 06, 2006 02:54 grooveematic at hotmail dot com

I remenber to have seen a photo of a priest blessing a column of german soldiers going to the front, so the pope benedict parody disguised in a nazi uniform is rather an accurate remembrance of the vatican position and ambiguity with the nazis during ww2 (and after) Let's not forget that many nazis escaped to south america with their help.The vatican is a state with politicians on the far right side,always has been, and always wil be. Hurting catholic sensibilities (as the italian gvt says ) is a right to everybody and no matter what, is here to stay. People got the right to say fuck off to the pope if they want to. If I decide to put a communist symbol on jesus cross and publish it on the web , I don't expect and won't accept that my government or the vatican to tell me not to do that

by Ipanema Tue Jun 21, 2005 13:40 Paris

You sound so similar to our new Channel Partner Director!

by Jennifer Scath Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:54 arnaud127 at hotmail dot com

Why should I bother leave 1,000 words, "DON'T" ?

You obviously don't know how to read: the photo is dated, and is part of a lengthy article fully explaining the position of the church during WWII.

To see the date and the article, you just have to go on the mentioned website, http://www.thepopesfanclub.com.

Just in case you don't know how to click either: "click" means that you will have to use that little object looking like a mouse near your PC...

JS

by toneore Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:11 toneore at eircom dot net

Let's see them put up a graphic of someone pissing on a Koran....

by Jennifer Arnaud Fri Jun 03, 2005 02:39 jf at rousseau dot us

"Une image vaut mille mots, M. Rousseau."

by Mark P Sun May 15, 2005 19:24

Here is an interesting article from Znet that deals with Cardinal Ratzinger's war against liberation theologians and Catholic leftists during the 1980s:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=105&ItemID=7708

by R. Isible Sun May 15, 2005 19:09

But there is one obvious difference: criticism from within a culture is not the same as criticism from without, especially when the culture/religion being criticised is getting some of their lands bombed and occupied. Standing out from the groupthink of one's own culture is braver than cheerleading patriotically. Realistically Indymedia.italia would not be shut down by the Italian state for publishing pictures of Koran's being flushed down toilets, now would they?

All that said I've started to warm to Ciaron's position above a little. I think that the evidence to show that the pope was a wholehearted NAZI in the past is weaker than I believed and the accusation in the Vicente Navorro article isn't very strongly supported. So the redjade/Ciaron angle of arguing that he was young and did no more or less than his contemporaries is stronger than I was initially willing to admit.

I do still think though that his subsequent attacks on the more liberal and left-leaning parts of the church should mark him out for opprobrium. I also think that the original indymedia.it picture is fair comment and draws attention to his right-wing leanings: it's not very subtle perhaps and does open up the valid criticism of him being fascist to the pedantic insistence that he is not a nazi.

by toneore Sun May 15, 2005 05:40 toneore at eircom dot net

Let's see them flush a Koran down the toilet and put up a picture of it. I mean what's the difference?

by Don't Fri May 13, 2005 14:18

Don't hold yourself back Jennifer, give us the 1,000 words and tell us what point you are trying to make. Maybe you could bring in the Bush families financial contribution to the rise of Nazism, date the photo you've published, comment on Hitler-Stalian pact etc

by Jennifer Scath Fri May 13, 2005 04:53 arnaud127 at hotmail dot com

In case the photo I am attaching does not upload the right way, it can be found on google (type "nazi priests" as keywords) or on www.thepopesfanclub.com.

Pictures are worth a 1,000 words, they say. So I'll stop there!!!

Nazi priests

by R. Isible Wed May 11, 2005 18:15

Ciaron wrote: "Don't you have any Hungarian, Slovak, East German friends who were members of the Communist Pioneers at high school [...] To slap up a photo of them in old age in a Pioneer outfit would be less misrepresentative of them than what has been done here on Italia indymedia etc etc etc"

If those hypothetical friends were now leaders of a large multinational concern that emphasized Taylorism and was interfering in the personal and spiritual lives of billions of people I think that it would be appropriate and useful to slap up a photo on Italia indymedia to remind the world that the person interfering with them has a history of compliance with, and active embrace of tyranny and oppression.

by Ciaron Tue May 10, 2005 21:06

http://www.takver.com/history/brisbane/freespeechqld.htm

by Ciaron Tue May 10, 2005 20:38

Don't you have any Hungarian, Slovak, East German friends who were members of the Communist Pioneers at high school?

I do have many and only one had any enthusiasm for their membership of that Marxist-Leninist organisation which they were part of at 15. years of age.

To slap up a photo of them in old age in a Pioneer outfit would be less misrepresentative of them than what has been done here on Italia indymedia etc etc etc
That's all folks!

by R. Isible Tue May 10, 2005 17:15

Ciaron wrote: "So the pope is a Nazi"

The pope was a member of NAZI organisation in the past and it's not unlikely that if they'd won then he'd still be in the organisation if it existed. He had to make do with the Catholic church instead.

Ciaron wrote: " and the Catholic Worker is the BNP. I'm just getting a grip on your world view here."

I definitely did not write that and don't think it. You dimish yourself and reduce your credibility by asserting it. I was pointing out by a reductio ad absurdum that insisting that anarchists have to give a voice to people they collectively decide is not welcome is NOT the same as the state censoring the publication of media. If you thought I was comparing you to the BNP I apologise and would like you to go back and read the analogy with "Toad Breeder's Association of Greater Manchester" substituted for BNP.

I see the actions of the Catholic Worker organisation in direct-action pacifism as wholly admirable and I fully suppport them. Given that it is (as explained previously on indymedia.ie) a diverse movement including people opposed to the Catholic church's teachings on homosexuality, abortion, divorce etc I have no problem in supporting Catholic Worker. This may be all based on my ignorance of other political activity that Catholic Worker is involved in. I hope not.

I'd like to restate that you are personalising this (and now dragging attention toward Catholic Worker after dragging attention toward yourself failed) and they/you are not the issue here.

The issue is that the new head of the Catholic church was a member of a NAZI youth organisation and has since done his best to destroy movements for social liberation in Latin America and the most prominent anti-NAZI forces in post-WW2 Europe: the communist partys.

An anonymous contributor to Indymedia.it has drawn attention to this and as a result the whole website has been censored by a government that again has echoes and ties to recent state authoritarian history.

by Ciaron Tue May 10, 2005 16:06

So the pope is a Nazi and the Catholic Worker is the BNP. I'm just getting a grip on your world view here.

Cultvated ignorance was not a defence at Nuremburg and it's not a defence here. The anarchist scene is small, the island is next to yours. Research and discuss censorship in the right on anarchist scene and how this threatens to reduce the movement to a sect and an irrelevance.

The anarchist movement doesn't agree on the ethics of kiling animals, let alone unborn children. Yes shock horror the anarchist movement includes vegans and carnivores, prolifers & pro-abortionists, pacifists and armed stugglers - it's a much bigger movement and broader tradition than the sect you wish to reduce it to. Do some reading. Do some researching. Do some time. Work with the homeless. Draw from your own life experience to reach conclusions about the world. Then maybe we can engage in a discussion.

Your cherry picking prosecutional style has already been unleashed on us recently by the State with a lot more expertise and resources.

Bad posting, bummer they got banned for it. They should have been aware of laws against incitement to racial and religious hatred/violence. If you're going to entertain breaking a law....well "don't do the crime unless you can do the time".

Don't know why any state would take down any indymedia. The forum must make the surveillance of dissent a lot easier than without it.

by R. Isible Tue May 10, 2005 15:20

English, middle-class, etc., you keep on insisting on talking about some murky incident that I know nothing about in order to prove (apparently) two things: 1) that the Catholic Church is an institution that anarchists shouldn't wish to destroy because of it's authoritarianism, homophobia, irrationalism and anti-feminism; 2) that the Pope (who is the head of this repulsive religion and has a firm background committed _above the norm for others of his milieu_ to NAZIism and has done his best to extirpate liberation theology from the church) should not be linked to this ideology pictorially as a reminder to us all that the official mouthpiece of God on earth was at one time a member of the youth wing of the NAZI party. I think your personal experience with some english anarchists or other has no bearing on the above matters.

I also think you've tried repeatedly to make this a personalised matter and I have _no_ interest in that. I don't care what redjade and you did in your youth because you have no power over me. As soon as you get into a position to be able to tell other people that they can't make love to another human, or that their partner can't have an abortion then you can be sure I'll be bringing up your youthful pentecostalism and your current membership of an organisation headed by a member of the Hitler Youth as grounds for criticism of your innate character.

Ciaron wrote: "You have tried here to reduce anarchy to a protestant sect, "

Again, like much of your commentary on this subject, way over personalized and way wide of the mark. The only reason that Catholicism is getting a mention is because the new Pope is in the media.

by Ciaron Tue May 10, 2005 08:38

Ciaron wrote: "-It is a humour that plays on ageism & ethnocentricismn (see Prince William at the fancy dress party!)"

I really don't understand this Ciaron.
*The guy is German-"all Germans are Nazis"- is the prejudice we all grew up with post-WW2, this is the prejudice that this humour appeals to etc etc ....... along with the myth that WW2 was a US/German war rather than a German/Russian one. (See Hollywood)

Ciaron wrote "-Why isolate yourself from such a broad base unnecessarily?"

Given that line of argument why bother irritating the millions of capitalists by telling them they're wrong?
*The Catholic Church is the church of the poor (see the recent Guardian retrospectives), the English anarchist movement is largely a scene of the middle classes (albeit alientated from their manor born). If you want anarchy to be merely a subcultural sect/scene then I can understand your distaste for the universality and expansiveness of Catholicism. Some anarchists want to irritate some of us want to transform our lives and society.

Ciaron wrote: "-Censorship has been practised by sections of the anarchist movement mimicing state censorship"

I know nothing about this case but there's a big difference between the State censoring Indymedia.italia and a group of anarchists telling someone they don't see as an ideological comrade that they're not welcome. Again, extending your argument it's logical conclusion is that anarchist would have to allow a BNP stall in order to avoid charges of censorship.
*These anarcho retailers sell me a book that quotes me as significant in the anarchist historical tradition one year, next year they censor me. They want me as passive consumer of the anarcho-retail market, they don't want me as an active anarcho citizen. English (anarchists) denying Irish Catholics (anarchists) civil rights has a nasty historical ring. Bit like the Baader Meinhoff guy who found himself on a hijacked plane at Entebbe segregating people on the basis of being Jewish or not , if you don't get it you don't get it.

Ciaron wrote: "-It's a shame and self sabotaging, that the Euro-left isolates itself unnecessarily from 1.1 billion people identifying with the Catholic tradition and others who identify with other spiritual traditions etc."

Only from those people that find the accusation that the pope is probably a NAZI based on the evidence that he's clearly anti-communist and was a member of a NAZI organisation in his youth.

*See Red Jade comment re:what were your politics when you were 15 (remembering you were born into the context of WW2 etc). Personally I had a flirtation with pentecostalism at 15, at 16 I was expelled from school for wearing an Irish Republican t-shirt at the Queen's jubillee when she turned up in my town. At 17 I was an anarcho-pacifist. As with the kidz surfing the subcultural scenes, everyone has the right to be young and stupid. Post the guy as a 15 year old and not a 78 year old in a Nazi uniform if you want to make the accusation of this poster. Even his enemies regard him as an intellectual genius so you'll have to try a lot harder than the adolescent anarchism of the Italian indymedia post....but if you can't compete intellectually with him, don't compete. Retreat to baseless slander and the subcultural 1st. world comfort zone.

Ciaron wrote: "-That the accusation -this pope is a Nazi-is untrue and opens the discussion about is it ok to post slander about anyone anytime on open publishing?"

The pope was member of a NAZI youth organisation. There is every indication that if he'd been old enough he'd have been out doing his bit for genocide. There is no evidence justr wishful fantacising.

Ciaron: "If this is a diversion I'll defer and let the discussion return to how to preserve Italian indymedia. No worries, no problem."

Only if you're the person that posted as "?" does that comment apply. And if you are you still have to explain what you were talking about in that post.

*If people call themselves anarchists one would expect bottom line rejectionist positions on censorship, prisons and war.....this was not my experience at the London Anarchist Bookfair. You have tried here to reduce anarchy to a protestant sect, the preserve of the first world PC poser, a designer market, anarchy in the best sense is catholic/universal, an orientation that will merge spontaneously in struggle form varied cultural and spiritual traditions (and like it or lump it athiesm/agnosticismis remains predominantly the preserve of the affluent in our world......that's ok, just don't try and impose it on the rest of us or make it a hoop for us to jump through. Stop trying shooting yourself in the foot on the athiest/agnostic issue....unless you want to besome kind of isolated misunderstood elite etc

by atheist Tue May 10, 2005 08:21

"-It's a shame and self sabotaging, that the Euro-left isolates itself unnecessarily from 1.1 billion people identifying with the Catholic tradition and others who identify with other spiritual traditions etc."

Again, you are confusing a disagreement over ideas with 'isolation' from the people who hold those ideas. By your logic, the left is isolating itself from everyone else by merely advocating leftist ideas! The simple matter is that I think theist ideas are wrong and destructive to the construction of a humanistic and socialist world. Therefore I argue against such ideas. In an identical way, I think notions of private property are wrong, destructive etc and therefore I argue against these ideas. While this might isolate me from people who hold those ideas, it _is_ necessary to challenge ideas that you think are wrong if you want to get anywhere.

Once more, I believe that you should defend your ideas if you can and not hide behind these flimsy devices. Why is criticising mystical ideas any different to criticising ideas of property, if you think that they are harmful?

by R. Isible Tue May 10, 2005 07:36

Ciaron wrote: "-It is a humour that plays on ageism & ethnocentricismn(see Prince William at the fancy dress party!)"

I really don't understand this Ciaron.

Ciaron wrote "-Why isolate yourself from such a broad base unnecessarily?"

Given that line of argument why bother irritating the millions of capitalists by telling them they're wrong?

Ciaron wrote: "-Censorship has been practised by sections of the anarchist movement mimicing state censorship"

I know nothing about this case but there's a big difference between the State censoring Indymedia.italia and a group of anarchists telling someone they don't see as an ideological comrade that they're not welcome. Again, extending your argument it's logical conclusion is that anarchist would have to allow a BNP stall in order to avoid charges of censorship.

Ciaron wrote: "-It's a shame and self sabotaging, that the Euro-left isolates itself unnecessarily from 1.1 billion people identifying with the Catholic tradition and others who identify with other spiritual traditions etc."

Only from those people that find the accusation that the pope is probably a NAZI based on the evidence that he's clearly anti-communist and was a member of a NAZI organisation in his youth.

Ciaron wrote: "-That the accusation -this pope is a Nazi-is untrue and opens the discussion about is it ok to post slander about anyone anytime on open publishing?"

The pope was member of a NAZI youth organisation. There is every indication that if he'd been old enough he'd have been out doing his bit for genocide.

Ciaron: "If this is a diversion I'll defer and let the discussion return to how to preserve Italian indymedia. No worries, no problem."

Only if you're the person that posted as "?" does that comment apply. And if you are you still have to explain what you were talking about in that post.

by Ciaron Tue May 10, 2005 02:12

-It's a shame that Italian indymedia is being censored
-It's a shame that they got done on something so stupid duplicating a line being pushed by right wing British tabloids. Such poor humour was done weeks ago on a broader scale why duplicate it?
-It is a humour that plays on ageism & ethnocentricismn(see Prince William at the fancy dress party!)
-Why play into the hands of the Italian state?
-Why isolate yourself from such a broad base unnecessarily?
-Censorship has been practised by sections of the anarchist movement mimicing state censorship (eg the anarco-retailers at the London Anarchist Book Fair who market to a hip subculture and possibly found Catholic anarchists undermining of the market/brand they were trting to generate. Like many American Catholics who maybe American first Catholic second-ignoring the consistent opposition from the papacy to the latest series of U.S. wars - these folks maybe retailers first ,anarchists second. Don't know didn't get a chance to find out! Got censored!
-It's a shame and self sabotaging, that the Euro-left isolates itself unnecessarily from 1.1 billion people identifying with the Catholic tradition and others who identify with other spiritual traditions etc.
-That the accusation -this pope is a Nazi-is untrue and opens the discussion about is it ok to post slander about anyone anytime on open publishing?

If this is a diversion I'll defer and let the discussion return to how to preserve Italian indymedia. No worries, no problem.

by R. Isible Mon May 09, 2005 17:33

I have no idea what you are talking about or why you feel the questions that you raise have anything to do with the subject matter under consideration. To be frank they seem like a blatant attempt to create a diversion from the subject which is that Indymedia Italia is being censored because it links the current pope with fascism.

by Ciaron Mon May 09, 2005 09:16

The "left inquisition" issue was not an immediate response to your posting, it comes from 25 years of experience as a faith based activist in Australia, New Zealand, England & Ireland. It is not so much of a problem in the U.S. where I was active for 4 years. It just seems so unnecesary and slef sabotaging of the left in Europe. (If you want me to speculate on motives here I can).

Know that radical Catholics suffered along with others during the Spanish & other inquisitions etc. (see "Name of the Rose")

For a better understanding for where I'm coming from read the following interview if you have the time and interest.

http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/threemon_article_pitstop_ploushares_anti_war_protests_shannon_interview.htm

by atheist (formerly secular leftist) Mon May 09, 2005 08:16

Reality check, please read what I wrote. I clearly did not say that anybody challenged my right to be an atheist, I said that christians regularly challenge my right to criticise their ideas. They are perfectly entitled to challenge my materialist scientific ideas and I too should be absolutely entitled to challenge their mystical nonsense.

Ciaron, you present a pretty good example of what I am talking about. You talk of an 'inquisition' when all that has happened here is a discussion of ideas. When your lot had an inquisition it was the real deal - people killed and tortured simply for their beliefs. All I am doing is discussing ideas as I see them honestly. There is no inquisition into a subjective space, there is simply a discussion about ideas. Just because it is uncomfortable for you to have your ideas examined with a critical eye, does not mean that there is any hostility towards your good self. I have absolutely nothing against you, on the other hand I have a lot against christianity, the pope and the idea of god in general.

Nor is this a "anti-religious/spiritual prejudice" as you characterise it. It is a reasoned and thought out conclusion that I have come to based upon my own critical examination of the universe and our place within it. We are nothing more than the working out of the chaotic complexity of matter subject to the laws of this universe. Of that I am quite certain. If you have a different argument, why not make it? Why hide behind phoney charges of prejudice? Since I was raised, like virtually every single person on the planet, and taught a strong prejudice to believe in god, I think that charge would be very hard to make stick.

I also take issue with your claim that people's 'spiritual' understanding is somehow outside the remit of the left to talk about. Every single religion worth the name teaches people that there is a single and absolute authority who is the ultimate arbiter of good and evil. I think that this is a profoundly anti-humanistic and anti-socialist idea. In my view, there is nothing above humanity, no justice, no right and no wrong. We make these things and we are responsible for them. Theism both turns people into slaves of the divine and absolves them for all responsibilty for the shit that we make of this world. Atheism is a liberating concept. This is our world, we can make of it what we want. All that is good to us - honour, justice, dignity - has been created by us and it is in our power to make it better and stronger. We do not need any god to preside over us, we are god, we can choose to make this world in our own image.

Indeed, your own religion - catholicism should be, to my mind, among the most repugnant and inimical movements to free human beings. There is an unparalleled hierarchy. A single human being - and human he undoubtedly is - apparently has a special channel to the almighty and the rest of us can only do his bidding. Multiple layers of corrupt and profoundly unspiritual bureaucrats: cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests serve the sole function of disseminating the word of the pope to the masses and telling them how to think. Truly, I can think of nothing more inimical to the socialist ideal. It does not surprise me that you cannot defend your ideas, they are so deeply contradictory that you have no solid ground from which to start. But, do not confuse my opinion about your religion with an opinion about yourself, I respect you and your principles, I can just see the contradiction that somehow escapes you.

To paraphrase Philip Pullman: good people do good things, bad people do bad things and it takes religion to make good people do bad things but not every good person follows this path.

by ? Mon May 09, 2005 07:42

That was a long Counterpunch article with a lot of genearilsations at the beginning. So a few questions raised by the early part of it.

1) Aren't Arabs semites,? couldn't it be argued that the Jewish state has one of the worst recent records of anti-semitism?

2) Didn't the Democratic Party ban the left wing Catholic Governor of Pennsylvania (who suspended executions during his rule) from speaking at the Democratic Convention (NYC 1992) that nominated Clinton. This Convention being chaired by Anne Richards of Texas (the most active death row at the time)?

by Ciaron Mon May 09, 2005 01:02

The Catholic Church is a voluntary organisation, people come, some stay, they go, some stay away, some come back.

Stalin, "How many divisions does the pope have?"

Heard that the new pope has taken weapon symbols off the Vatican crest (have to check this out), but that's a start, hopefully the Swiss guard will be disaemd and/or sent home. He definitely has questioned whether the Just War theory is now redundant given the nature of modern warfare technology. So hopefully it's a step back to pre-Constantine pacifism. Where radical Catholics & Jesus are there waiting to welcome him.

Gunter Grass former full member of Nazi Youth and grew up to be an anti-war leftist has a fine book "The Tin Drum"...a reflection from that generation. There was a movie "Tin Drum Part 1" that I saw 20 years ago, but have waited unsuccessfuly for the sequel. Is it out there?

Have a radical priest friend who was taught by Ratzinger, looking forward to catching up with him in the next couple of weeks.

by R. Isible Sun May 08, 2005 23:25

Ciaron wrote: It is also a myth that WW2 was a war against facism

This is demonstrably true especially in the US where the ravings of at least one prominent Catholic US/Irish priest (Father Coughlan) on the radio were a public reflection of a deep strand of admiration for Mussolini and Hitler. Similarly the re-integration of known, active fascists and NAZIs post WW2 into the US-controlled "liberal democracies" of Western Europe gives the lie to any idea that this was a war against fascism.

by R. Isible Sun May 08, 2005 23:17

It's the present. The Catholic Church is a vast organisation that spreads bigotry, oppression and authoritarianism. I wasn't that much happier with the previous psychopath that occupied the post "the mouthpiece of God on earth". The Catholic Church has been spreading hatred of homosexuals, Jews, unmarried mothers, the divorced etc. for far too long. Ratzingers fascist leanings are just the insult on top of the injury being done to societies all around the globe where these deviant parasites are allowed to prey on our yearnings for spirituality.

The last US election saw the decisive intervention of the US church in favour of the leading war-criminal of the day: George W. Bush because they were assured that he'd deny homosexuals the same rights as everyone else and would continue the assault on women's reproductive freedom.

The attempt to legislate and interfere with fundamental personal freedoms and to punish those that don't fit in with the majority has very strong parallels with NAZIism to me and I think that the picture is fair and accurate criticism especially given his abnormally high level of involvement with this philosophy as compared to fellow Germans in the past.

Counterpunch continues the good coverage of this monster's elevation to be the spiritual head of the Catholic Church with one jew's recollections of being beaten up by Irish Catholic kids as a result of encouragement and bigotry being spread by the church:

by redjade Sun May 08, 2005 22:54

He was 14 at the time.

→ I'd be too embarassed to admit what political ideology I had when I was 14! (not far from these guys http://freedominst.org ) but then you grow up - or try to anyway.

Wikipedia has some interesting stuff about his father's resistance to nazism....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Cardinal_Ratzinger#Background_and_childhood_.281927.26ndash.3B1943.29

Yeah he's a right wing jerk and the head of an institution complicit in the deaths of millions of its own members - but I still dont see the direct connection to him once being a nazi.

by R. Isible Sun May 08, 2005 22:34

Given that Ratzinger was a member of the youth feeder group for the grown-up NAZI party it doesn't seem grossly inaccurate to depict him as a NAZI.

I don't see any evidence presented by you "Reality Check" to suggest that Ratzinger himself was engaged in anything other than a whole-hearted engagement with the NAZI program.

Like the vast majority of Germans he wasn't a member of the NAZI party and like the vast majority of the Germans he didn't do anything to stop them.

He went a bit farther than the vast majority though in that he was willingly to publically embrace their policies. Admittedly he was young, but his subsequent right-wing policies suggest that this was a matter of conviction.

So, pedantically, no he was not a NAZI. However he was part of their youth wing. Indymedia Italy's contributor was on the money by drawing attention to this and it's interesting that a Catholic Anarchist finds it important to defend such a repulsive figure. It highlights the inherent contradiction of ascribing to both sets of beliefs.

by Ciaron - DCW/PSP5 Sun May 08, 2005 20:04

It's a bummer that indymedia italia has been shut down. More of bummer that it was over this posting that is historically inaccurate, poor satire and duplicates the right wing english take on having a German pope of that age.

It is also a myth that WW2 was a war against facism. Why wasn't Spain invaded by the allies if it was? why did they put Italian facists and German Nazis back into power to run those states on behalf of the U.S.? why did the U.S. go on to support every totalitarian they could in their imperial outposts of South America South East Asia and the Middle East?

The anti-religious/spiritual prejudices of the European left is self destructive. How people come to terms with the existential questions of "what the fuck am I doing here? and "I won't be here for fuckn long?" is their subjective territory. If they make sense out of the traditions of Catholicsim, Islam, Buddhism or creation spiritualities or the pixies at the end of the garden (or in the sky that has been suggested by one posting) is their business. They don't need a left or anarcho inquisition into that subjective space.

I was banned from presenting at the London Anarchist Book Fair in 2001 even though I had sent in my (not returned) $20 to hold a workshop because I was a Catholic They were ignorant of the Catholc Worker anarchist tradition (well covered in the long anarcho-tome of Peter Marshall "Demanding the Impossible" - including a index ref and quote by me who they were banning and Nicolas Walter's "About Anarchism", Utah Phillips/Ani DiFranco track "Anarchy etc etc). A long internet debate ensued with a lot of rejection of LABF censorship coming from athiest & agnostic anarchists (US & Europe) who were well familiar with the CW.

One would think that anarchists minimally would have solid rejection positions on free expression, prison & war.

by Reality Check Fri May 06, 2005 18:05

What Christians are challenging your right to be an atheist?
A believer has every right to think your stance is nonsensical. Just as you think their faith is foolish.
A true believer will always believe an atheist is utterly wrong and vice versa. It stands to reason.

by x Fri May 06, 2005 15:56

Given that stream of logic and ethics. how do you relate to the orginal montage? How does it engage ideas. Seems like it appeals to prejudice, that's why the Brit tabloids seem so excited about it?

by secular leftist Fri May 06, 2005 13:46

Don't conflate criticism of ideas with some sort of prejudice against the people who hold those ideas. All sorts of people have all sorts of ideas that I think are silly or wrong. It doesn't mean that I am going to treat them any differently than I treat other people. It is an interesting development in western religions that they are apparently incapable of defending their ideas and resort to taking offense at any criticisms and pretending that criticisms of their ideas are somehow similar to discrimination and prejudice. I think that, for example, astrology, homeopathy, astral gazing, christianity and other notions of all-powerful entities are all silly ideas and I'm quite happy to share this opinion with any believers. It's only the christians who challenge my right to do so. I put this down to an inability to defend their ideas as most of their adherents were born into it and have never really thought it through. So, my dear friend, if you want to defend your sky-pixies, lets have it. Don't try to hide behind offense.

by x Fri May 06, 2005 11:25

If you want to hook up with the libertarian pixie stream or indigenous spiritual trads, you might find a link on www.starhawk.org

Repeating the Brit tabloid line that all Germans are Nazis that this comes pretty close to hardly engenders sympathy....although yes free expression is the right to scream fire in a crowded theatre. But hey just leave it to the Brit tabloids if you don't like Germans or popes or old people. Now your in trouble with the state and you want us to prioritise you over all the ODC's from working class backgrounds who were born into trouble with the state etc etc etc

by secular leftist Fri May 06, 2005 02:44

I'd grow up and stop believing in sky-pixies.

by Reality Check Fri May 06, 2005 01:26

Maximo 666, please take your anti-Semitic bullsh** where somebody's actually interested in it. (in reponse to a now hidden comment - ed)
R1sible, the quotation you have taken is from an article I only included because I thought it was interesting.
It presumably refers to the fact that Ratzinger's parents - along with himself and his brother - were anti-Hitler.
The family were forced to move home on a number of occasions because of Joseph Ratzinger Senior's anti-Hitler beliefs.
There are so many other areas of Ratzinger's beliefs that are actually objectionable - this Nazi issue is a total red herring. And if anything only serves to distract from other more pertinent issues.
As already said, labelling every politician/cleric you don't like as a Nazi just diminishes the unique horror and scale of the Holocaust.

by x Thu May 05, 2005 22:02

If I was in the secular left, I'd realise that Islam and Catholicism are about the only show in town that could offer mass opposition to the neo-con, fundamentalist, consumer culture, imperialism of Bush and start supporting the libertarian streams in both traditions rather than dissing their symbols and rituals.

Liberal protestantism and secular leftism have had their day and like it or not are a spent force. Support the radicals in the pre-modernist traditions etc etc

by R. Isible Thu May 05, 2005 20:12

QUOTE: the only significant complaint that [is made] against Ratzinger's wartime conduct is that he resisted quietly and passively, rather than having done something drastic enough to earn him a trip to a concentration camp.

Could you supply details of his quiet resistance?

by S Thu May 05, 2005 20:07

In the '90's East Timor & the north of Ireland were some of the few places in the world you could get killed for just being Catholic. So maybe it won't play so well over here for those of us who haven't been pshchicly partitioned. Too many dead forpoor satire to rate.

by Arnold Thu May 05, 2005 18:41 maximiliano666_3 at hotmail dot ccom

It is enough bull sh… criticizing all the time the Catholic Church. Lets review your made in America religion sects. Pentecostals and others are multi million business, as you can see in the mega churches all over America, their yearly revenue is around $25 million, this vast complexes include bookstores, restaurants, pools, gyms and many other facilities. This is what Jesus didn’t allow in God’s house, and threw away the Jewish merchandisers from the Temple. Don’t you remember Jimmy Swagart, one of your most followed priest committing adultery, or J. Johnson stealing property and money from his followers, and later killing all of them in the Guyana?. But you still following him. Your “Christians” are also pushing Bush to kill more Arabs in their own countries and invade them. What about the Mormons having all the wives they want, even if they are still children, tat is pedophile.

by Reality Check Thu May 05, 2005 18:27

The point I was trying to make is that it's difficult to find a prominent Jewish/Israeli newspaper, group or thinker who has attacked the new Pope on the grounds of anti-Semitism.
If the primary victims of the Holocaust do not believe Benedict XVI is anti-Semite, then who are we to say he is?

Regarding the comments about sodomising children, that's a typical Indymedia-style red herring tactic of throwing a totally separate issue into the pot in the hope of scuppering all hope of having a sensible argument.

What does clerical abuse have to do with Nazism? Absolutely nothing. Is Ratzinger's posturing on clerical child abuse a disgrace?Absolutely yes.

Here's the editorial from the Jerusalem Post on Pope Benedict XVI's appointment. It makes interesting reading:

"It is a shame that some Israeli newspapers, along with some newspapers elsewhere, sensationalized the Catholic church's choice of a new pope with headlines like, "White smoke, black past" and "From Nazi Youth to the Vatican." Our own headline, "New pope hailed for Jewish ties," we must say, would seem more fair and accurate.

Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, is the first German pope in 1,000 years. In a 1997 book, Salt of the Earth, Ratzinger explained what happened when he was 14 years old: "When the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941 ... I was still too young, but later as a seminarian, I was registered in the Hitler Youth. As soon as I was out of the seminary, I never went back. And that was difficult because the tuition reduction, which I really needed, was tied to proof of attendance in the Hitler Youth." Ratzinger prevailed on a sympathetic professor, who had asked him to attend just once to obtain the necessary document, to spare him even this fleeting connection with a group he evidently wanted nothing to do with.

We do not see why the pope should be judged unfavorably for such a past. On the contrary, the new pope, like his predecessor, would seem to be acutely sensitive to the ravages of totalitarianism that he personally witnessed.

It has been pointed out that the selection of a German pope is perhaps even more momentous than was the choice of a Pole in 1978. As Charles Moore wrote in the Daily Telegraph, "Much of Polish society retained its Catholic integrity under Communist persecution. Most of German society succumbed to Hitler, compromising itself."

Coming from a place where Catholicism was so compromised, it is perhaps not a coincidence that Ratzinger has been known for his fierce defense of traditional Catholic doctrine against all comers, including his fellow clergy. Indeed, and also like his predecessor, Benedict XVI is expected to continue the Church's fight for the principle of moral truth in the face of the modern world's moral relativism.

In the homily he gave just before the conclave that chose him for the papacy, Ratzinger said, "The small boat of thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves – thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so forth. ... Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism ... looks like the only attitude [acceptable] to today's standards. We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one's own ego and one's own desires."

Jews, it would seem, can recognize such a spirited case for religion, a case not unlike that Judaism has made for itself throughout history.

We should not, of course, pretend that the new pope is advocating anything but his own religion. In fact, he is credited with authoring the 2000 Vatican document "Dominus Jesus," stating: "This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, ... the belief that 'one religion is as good as another.'"

It should be no surprise, but also no concern, that the leader of any religion prefers his own creed to another, particularly when Benedict XVI is so personally identified with John Paul II's expressions of respect for Judaism, Jews, and Israel.

We hope and expect that the improvement in Catholic-Jewish relations will continue under his papacy. A German pope could be in a unique position to go even further than his predecessors in facing the Vatican's troubled and not fully revealed role during the terrible era that he lived through as a young man. That role remains of obvious and great concern to the Jewish people.

by redjade Thu May 05, 2005 17:31

there was a time a number of years ago when the ADL claimed that the anarchist circle A symbol was a Anti-Semetic/Anti-Jewish - they have since retracted that claim. but it did show a bit of cluelessness on their part.

by Dan Thu May 05, 2005 17:27

The Anti-Defamation League has degenerated from a decent group campaigning against anti-Semitism to a knee-jerk defender of Israel at all costs. It gave a special award to Silvio Berlusconi for "opposing anti-semitism", the week after he had given an interview to a British magazine and assured them that "Mussolini never killed anyone, he just sent them off to holiday camps." They were willing to overlook his indifference to the genocide of Italy's Jewish population (and his coalition with ex-fascists) because he was a staunch supporter of Ariel Sharon.

The League has also toned down its criticism of the Christian right in America. Fifteen years ago it (rightly) identified the bible-bashers as the biggest source of anti-Semitism in the country. Now it approves of their support for Israel, and ignores their naked hatred of Jews.

This doesn't prove that Ratzinger is a Nazi, of course. But the ADL is not a trustworthy source.

by lucy4 Thu May 05, 2005 17:20

I wonder if the thousands of children who have been sodomised by priests and then covered up by the Vatican would see this as offensive?

by iosaf Thu May 05, 2005 15:19

the italians have compiled a list of all images and articles on the theme at this link:-
http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2005/05/785897.php

in addition they have published a centre column feature article on the problem and the attack.

its got italian imc a lot of publicity in italy and abroad.
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/esteri/indymedia1/indymedia1.html
One roman politician Salvatore Vitello, has demanded that the site be closed.
http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2005/04/782845.php

All this is publicity: which as we settle into the reigh of Benedict XVI, consider Berlusconi's attempts to paper over the murder of an agent by US forces in Iraq and build bridges with Washington, and today that the german government consider yet again how to ban the neoNAZI german party, and today of the Holocaust memorial "march of the living" from Aushwitz to Birken which has brought the highest level jewish and israeli representation ever against the backdrop of worsening anti-semitism and xenophobia...

can't be a bad thing.

I suggest wikipedia-ists now add to the benedict xvi entry the effects on leftwing media and censorship which the first month of his papacy caused.

by Con Carroll Thu May 05, 2005 15:13

Well done to indymedia Italia for not censoring the truth about the present fascist in the vatican
The only good fascist is a dead one.

by Reality Check Thu May 05, 2005 14:35

By the way, Downfall should be made compulsory viewing. Anybody who watches it will understand why pretending that children enlisted in the Hitler Youth - or even the vast majority of German soldiers - are Nazis is a completely facile argument.

by Reality Check Thu May 05, 2005 14:29

The Counterpunch article is certainly interesting but there is one paragraph in it that states:

"During all his years in Germany, Ratzinger never in his writings publicly condemned the Holocaust, and, as late as 2000, he referred to the Catholic Church's collaboration with the Hitler regime as a sign of "a certain insufficiency of Catholics in front of the Holocaust because of the anti-Semitism that existed in the souls of many of them" (emphasis added). A "certain insufficiency" is a dramatic understatement."

By way of counterpoint, Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, issued the following statement:

We welcome the new Papacy of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. From the Jewish perspective, the fact that he comes from Europe is important, because he brings with him an understanding and memory of the painful history of Europe and of the 20th Century experience of European Jewry.

Having lived through World War II, Cardinal Ratzinger has great sensitivity to Jewish history and the Holocaust. He has shown this sensitivity countless times, in meetings with Jewish leadership and in important statements condemning anti-Semitism and expressing profound sorrow for the Holocaust. We remember with great appreciation his Christmas reflections on December 29, 2000, when he memorably expressed remorse for the anti-Jewish attitudes that persisted through history, leading to "deplorable acts of violence" and the Holocaust. Cardinal Ratzinger said: "Even if the most recent, loathsome experience of the Shoah (Holocaust) was perpetrated in the name of an anti-Christian ideology, which tried to strike the Christian faith at its Abrahamic roots in the people of Israel, it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians."

Though as a teenager he was a member of the Hitler Youth, all his life Cardinal Ratzinger has atoned for the fact. In our years of working on improving Catholic-Jewish ties, ADL has had opportunities to work with Cardinal Ratzinger. We look forward to continuing that relationship. ENDS

The Jerusalem Post also welcomed his appointment, saying that "the only significant complaint that [is made] against Ratzinger's wartime conduct is that he resisted quietly and passively, rather than having done something drastic enough to earn him a trip to a concentration camp. Of course, whenever it is said that a German failed the exceptional-resistance-to-the-Nazis test, it would behoove us all to recognize that too many Jews failed it, as well."

Regarding the main point, banning Indymedia Italy is ridiculous. Juvenile nonsense like the photo montage is best ignored and this ban only serves to reinforce these people's notions about themselves.
Painting Indymedia hate figures (Pope Benedict, Michael McDowell, George Bush) as Nazis is by now standard practice. Reducing Nazi imagery to the level of caricature belittles the millions who died in the Holocaust.

by iosaf as merrovinginvanjan Thu May 05, 2005 11:17

& has carried as its front page image for two weeks in a row a depiction of the "nazi pope".
for the election- "habemus fache!" (we have a fascist)
this week they've put him up in complete nazi gear.
In addition the commercial press of both Italy and Spain have pursued the nazi link. Further afield connections have been made to the blindspots in his biography, at his election there was a full scale argument over the wikipedia.org entry (based in Texas) with rival encylopedia compilers arguing over mention of the nazi link, and the publication of the photo with this comment of Ratzinger in his uniform stationed in a town where a camp was located and regular forced marches of inmates being transferred to slave labour were held through his village in front of the house he lived in-

no mention in the biog.

BTW italy.indymedia is registered to Brazil, the indymedia network is registered all over the place, as a collective defense tactic and brazilian internet law is among the best for that sort of thing.
If you believe the most complete online record of Italian anti-war activity and social movements ought not be attacked in this way, write to your local RC and Italian government representative.

OR---
You just relax, and notice that you can enter the site, and read as normal the update on the Genoa trial-
http://italy.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/576371.php
And you realise that we aren't put off line so easily, it all gets burnt onto CDs and engraved in metal plates and buried in Andorra and Switzerland.
There are now enough images of Ratzinger as nazi pope to fill a coffee table book. I'd suggest using the creativity on something else, for the point has been made.

joseph ratzinger. popularly known as the fascist pope in mediterranean europe. Who wants to silence this?

by Ciaron Thu May 05, 2005 10:01

Yeah...the White Rose! If you see the excellent German film "Downfall" ....... as the credits roll they give you an update on all the historical characters who were in Hitler's bunker (eg who suicided, who was imprisoned & released by the Russians, who died of old age recently etc.)

They then cut to doc footage of a recent interview with Hitler's bunker secretary (which the film is told through the eyes of)...there is a very signiicant mention by the now elderly woman sec. of Sophie Scholl (executed White Rose Conspiritor)...but being a German film they must have assumed everyone knows who Sophie Scholl was....so there is no historical explanation in the credits....which is a bit of bummer for the non-German audience.

They just "unearthed" Hitler's bunker nurse (now 95) who found "Downfall" very accurate.....I think it's still at The Screen.

Yeah pretty mediocre satire to have your website closed down over. I'd defend your right to be stupid and have historically inaccurate accusations as the basis of mediocre satire (even though it's the same satire about the guy the Brit tabloids have come up with).......but hey there's a war on, got other priorities!!! Solidarity, solidarnosc etc etc

by R. Isible Thu May 05, 2005 02:55

A good counterpunch article which dissects the spin that Ratzinger/Benedict was in the Hitler Youth because everyone else was at that time. Points out that 25 of his "fellow" Catholics were executed for belonging to the White Rose anti-NAZI revolutionarly group not far from where he lived. Also points out that he joined the HJ so that he could get brownie points for a scholarship to attend an ultra-right wing boarding school.

A malevelonent, right-wing opportunist.