McCartney sisters admit being advised

by . Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:00

unnamed - introduced to the sisters by a FF politician.

This was also dealt with in said radio programme.

by seamus o raghaillaigh Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:12

Good article, was actually listening to the program too. No big surprise to hear them stumble and come out with "anti police" propaganda. Its almost possible to see the strings twiching away when these women come on the tv. Talk about brazen propaganda against nationalists, are they as intelligent as they make them selves out to be? If so can they not see that most people see through them and how they are being used?

Going to W Bush the man who has murderd so many as guv. of Texas for justice was a joke, the irony seemed to be missed by them. Of course the provos were condemed for offering to shoot the perpetrators of their brothers murdered (actually taken out of context of the complete statement from the provisionals) but no one cares that this is effectively what Bush has done dozens of times in Texas, and on a huge scale in Iraq.

AS for the thousands murdered by the British forces including the RUC/PSNI, well guess its just anti police to mention that. But running to them for justice over a murderd taig is like asking the SS to preside over the murder of a jew in one of their camps.

Hopefully the media will find the next thing to beat republicans with soon and these eejits will fade away, that said, I do hope the murderer of her brother is swiftly charged for everyones sake.

by Devil Dog Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:51

1. This was not a "bar room brawl"..a man was murdered by having his throat slit, gutted and beaten so badly he lost an eye...not to mention what happened to his friend...if the killers were in the UVF not the IRA, would all you Provo supporters be glibly describing this as a "brawl"?

2. I love the bit about the women being advised by Military Intelligence/the security services...I suppose it's all a "securocrat" plot to discredit the poor, blameless Shinners, then?

3. What's wrong with "associating "with Anne McCabe, eh Jimmy...you are Jimmy Mac, conspiracy theorist in chief on this site, aren't you Hilaal? The fact that the Provos hate her becuase she wouldn't meekly shut up after her husband was murdered by terrorist scum?

4. Regarding the funding - they say they're paying for it themselves...if anybody has evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it...and while we're on the subject of funding, why not ask where the Shinners get the cash to fund their very well oiled election machine?

5. Re the numbers killed by the Security Forces....the number doesn't quite reach 600 so I have no idea where "thousands" comes from...anyway, the Provos have far more blood on their hands that anyone else.

6. I have no doubt that not only do "most people" not "see through them" as they're all substance, unlike the liars and spin meisters in SF but that "most people" support them wholeheartedely..and since when have SF/IRA given a shit about what "most people" think?

7. More MOPE self-pitying whine, comparing the security forces of a democracy to the Nazis...it's the Provos who are the nearest thing to fascists on this island.

8. Comment at the end is all too telling Seamus - I'll bet you and everyone in SF/IRA really does hope they "go away" soon...makes a change feeling a bit of pressure, eh?

Overall, can't say I'm surprised at the attempts by SF/IRA supporters to smear these brave women but don't worry, "most people" would trust them a lot more than Grizzly, who can't even tell the truth about being in the IRA.

by Hebe Mon Mar 21, 2005 13:59

"Brendan Devine is currently out on bail , facing charges of grievous bodily harm for an assault going back years."

Can you give more details on this?

Also a "leading republican" who was present in the bar suffered stabwounds. Who stabbed him? Was there a knifeman on the McCartney/Devine side as well?

I dont think the McCartney sisters should be abused, ok they are being used, but they have been bereaved and are suffering from grief. Dont call them eejits.

They may be losing the run of themselves, if that is the case then it will soon to be obvious to ordinary people in Republican areas. If the McCartneys line up with the establishment then they will quickly suffer the fate of the Peace People: become International Celebrities but be irrelevant in their own areas.

by Dublin Exile Mon Mar 21, 2005 14:08

1. They are not funded by someone who is related to a FF politician. Its already out there that an anonymous donor, acting through the Irish Labour party, funded their tickets to the US, where they then stayed in a run of the mill hotel

2. The earlier poster has not outlined their assertion that the provos have now gone to the taxi companies who took their people away from the pub on the night of the murder, and asked for the time sheets and call sheets of the drivers. So as to send them all Easter Eggs no doubt?

3. Earlier poster made no reference to the womens assertion that two people directly involved led the st patricks day kids parade in the Short Strand last week. Who are these idiots and why are the Provos continuing to shoot themselves in the foot over this whole debacle?

4. Having just finished Richard O Rawe's version of the Hunger Strike i cant help but wonder how all of those blanketmen feel about the peacetime soldiers who have been allowed to join up since the ceasefires and are now behaving like scumbags in their own areas and bringing all that republicanism stands for into disrepute.

5. Finally , attempts to discredit these women by anonymous posters here sickens my stomach. The scumbags who killed Robert McCartney have awoken a sleeping tiger, this family are no pushover, from working class Short Strand these women got off their arses, got themselves educated, got themselves jobs, started their own small business and no anonymous posters or street thugs are going to stop them going after their brothers murderers and those who are giving them succor and cover.

by Hebe Mon Mar 21, 2005 14:16

Do you really think meeting Bush adds to the McCartney sisters credibility? I think the murder of McCartney was a foul deed but I dont want to see a cover up on any side.

If Devine has a history of violence then whats wrong with exposing that? Also shouldnt we have the right to know who stabbed the "leading republican" in the bar?

The working class people in Nationalist areas in the North are not stupid. If the McCartney sisters are seen to be tools of the establishment then they will be as relevant as the Peace People in these areas.

You really have a sense of humour referring to anonymous posters!

by juan pablo Mon Mar 21, 2005 14:53

that he/she believes that the murderers of robert mcartney be brought to justice?because i would not want to insinuate that the poster in question is somehow trying to discredit the mcartney sisters?

by Levidicus Mon Mar 21, 2005 14:58

The fact is that the McCartney family are genuine and are now being attacked by the scumbags in SF and IRA.

SF have met with Bush while the war was in full swing in Iraq! They went to the World Economic Forum. They call on US Imperialism to intervene into Ireland! They go to 'breakfast meetings' with right-wing irish-americans. SF have sold out North and South. They voted in Bin Tax, they approved of water charges in North, They have advocated the closure of hospitals, They did not oppose introduction of student tuition fees.... list goes on and on. They are the traitors to working class catholics.

The whole McCartney situation shows up a lot about SF and IRA thuggary. SF are sectarian biggots that have stirred up sectarian hatred against protestants to bolster their own power. They have bombed English pubs and streets killing working class English people. Any disidents are attacked and exiled.

SF are not a party that are left-wing. They only put on a left face to get a few votes in the South. I find SWP's leaflet given out at SF Ard Fheis and at anti-war protest as disgusting and sick. Shame on them and any left-winger that supports SF/IRA over the McCartneys.

by Dagda Mon Mar 21, 2005 15:07

Robert McCartney was not killed in the manner you describe.

McCartney sustained a stab wound to the stomach and he died of his injuries the next day whereas Devine had his throat slit.

As for republicans trying to prevent justice for families, it is clear from past experience that the provos have not prevented witnesses to unsanctioned murders by IRA members from coming forward in the past.

A good example of this comes from the height of the hunger strikes where a brother of Jim Lynagh who was shot by the SAS in Loughgall, was tried and imprisoned for the murder of a bouncer in Monaghan in retaliation for a beating the older Lynagh received.

This stands in marked contrast to the government collusion in the murders of Rosemary Nelson, Pat Finucane, Robert Hammill, Aidan McAnespie, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings etc. etc.

Whereas the McCartney family are more than justified in their campaign they will do nothing to enhance their case by continuing in the manner they are engaged in at present.

The fact that they are already pulling back from elections etc. shows that support on the ground is already starting to wane.

by Kieran O'Sullivan - None Mon Mar 21, 2005 15:25 kieran.osullivan at ireland dot com 0876187680

Having read the commentary above I can only say that I'm shocked at what has been said so far.

Lets start with the basic facts, a man was murdered and his family want the people who did it to face justice. There isn't a person reading this web site who would not want the same thing if they were in the same situation.

In what can only be described as a bazaar statement the IRA offer to shoot the killers. Which was declined by the family. Now this raises a very interesting question why is it acceptable for the IRA to use the death penalty but it is unacceptable for the courts to send people to prison? Given the choice I know which I would take. Also I would ask the original poster of this article if they were in the same situation would they have the strength of will to refuse such an offer?

Question for any Sinn Fein members what is the Sinn Fein position on the death penalty?

On the subject of meeting GW Bush well lets just keep in mind that Gerry Adams met him and there was very little outrage.

Perhaps everyone with a criticism of the McCartneys should consider how they would react in the same situation.

by Interested Mon Mar 21, 2005 15:44

Brendan Devine is out on bail awaiting trial on GBH charges. Fact
A member of the IRA was stabbed by someone who took the side of Brendan Devine. Fact.
If this was any other pub stabbing the victims sisters would not be feted by the US President. Fact.
The PSNI have refused to hold an Identity Parade. Fact.
The PSNI have refused to take statements from witnesses. Fact

Why do some people here want to cover up these facts?

by Dagda Mon Mar 21, 2005 16:54

"The IRA brutally killed Robert McCartney. FACT"

The IRA certainly did not sanction the murder of Robert McCartney. Some people who may or may not have been IRA members killed him and in the past such people have been disowned by or expelled from the IRA and left to the authorities to deal with as in the case I mentioned previously.

There is ample evidence for those who wish to see it that the IRA want Robert McCartneys killers to be brought to justice, but the main difficulty they face is the PSNI whom they for their own reasons do not wish to acknowledge as a legitimate police force.

This view of the PSNI is not confined, by the way to the IRA and SF in the North, but applies across the board in Nationalist areas, and the way in which the British security apparatus (incl. PSNI) is maneuvering the McCartney sisters in the present circumstances does little to enhance the PSNIs credibility with that community.

Don't forget that the British establishment have always attempted to introduce their own more "acceptable" faces in conflicts around the world when it suits their agenda. A good example in the North was Gerry Fitt who had zero credibility and was rewarded for his assistance to the crown with a knighthood.

by Jonah Mon Mar 21, 2005 17:04

God almighty, what nonsense.

Robert McCartney was killed by scumbags, regardless of their political motivations or membership. He was not killed by the IRA and whoever stated that forfeited his right to be taken seriously by anyone commenting on this thread.

Those people the IRA believed were involved were expelled from the organisation. The IRA has made it clear there is no intimidation of witnesses going on by them and was prepared to execute the members responsible.

Sinn Fein has suspended seven members at the request of the McCartneys and passed their names to the PSNI Ombudsperson. Following the party's call to come forward over 30 people did so.

There are legitimate questions as to why the PSNI did not interview specific people. There are genuine questions as to funding, and the moron who raised SF funding might check media reports where SF handed their accounts over to the media to find the answers he or she is looking for.

Attacking the McCartney sisters is uncalled for. They are fighting for justice and republicans should give them every assistance possible.

Yes, they are being used by the PSNI, Free State political parties and anti-republican elements but I believe they are largely okay with this if it delivers for them. I think that's a tactical mistake but it's up to them to make it.

I also think they're being manipulated by the people giving them advice, but not to the extent they are being accused. They have simply given up any kind of questioning attitude to the PSNI and I think that too will turn out to be a mistake. Regardless of how smart a person is they are open to manipulation, especially in times of great emotional and personal stress. Believing otherwise is simply arrogance.

As for funding, I believe them when they say they are operating on a shoestring.

by Could it be Mon Mar 21, 2005 18:19

?How does this differ from the Annabel case. The tall guy who did most of the headkicking left the country and has not been pursued by the Gardai. Even those charged have not given the authorities information on him.

?Is it because those involved in the MCartney killing are hierarchs in the IRA and are getting different treatment than a foot soldier doing a homer (misuseingProvo cred & infrastructure for personal use).

Is it class in the Blackrock Annabel case that the cover up of the killer doesn't rate as a story worth pursuing compared to this coverup in a working class environment?

Is it class that gets different treatment than a foot solider in misusing Provo infrastructure to cover up a personal crime?

This isn't a rhetorical question, would be intereseted in responses?????

by war is over Mon Mar 21, 2005 18:25

The war has been over for 7 years. The only defensible actions the IRA have been involved in during those years (apart from their cross over work for sf, enforcing political discipline in the neighbourhoods, spying, fundraising) is attending to the problems associated with anti social behaviour. Shaking down pubs, builders and various small business interests doesnt count. Their 'policing' role leaves a lot to be desired and at its most blunt is basically a kind of state within a state terror. It is in fact even worse that the kind of justice or social ameleoration work carried out by recognised states.

Adams et al have already met Hugh Orde and, being christian democrats at best, have no fundamental beef with the cops. (notice the number of provos or shinners wearing nypd branded goods whenever they gather, no problem with that particualr occupying racist murder gang). their joining the policing boards is only a question of choosing the most politically oppurtune moment.

What the McCartney killing, and the recent killings by off duty provos in Derry, announce is that the time for the provos to leave the stage has arrived. SF will be left to fight it out as a marginal player at the margin of europe. They will continue to drift rightward and could do well against ff pursuing this strategy. there is little glory in any of it for anyone.

The McCartney sisters appearance on the scene has opened this up as a welcome public debate. They speak for ,many people in Belfast and throughout the 6 counties, not because all provos are bullies or psychos or corrupt but because the army has no constructive role anymore, and for this reason it can become dangerous. it is afterall a fairly sizable body of hard men who traffic in violence. No peaceful society needs more than one group of toughs telling them waht to do and clearly from good friday on that was goiong to be the statelets police force and not the provos. these decisions have been made, shinners might huff and puff about it but in fact they are the ones who made the decisions, or at least their party bosses made them on their behalf.

by jeff Mon Mar 21, 2005 19:07

I can understand the McCartneys pain at the murder ,but the media focussing on this case is just their usual anti republicanism dressed up in a new guise . Anti provo republicans shouldn't jump on the bandwagon .
When the British Army murdered Sally Gleeson earlier this year where were the anguished leader writers demanding that the British army be disbanded? How many now even remember her name ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1387232,00.html

by Devil Dog Mon Mar 21, 2005 19:42

Has the BA mounted an intimidation campaign against witnesses?

Did it clean up any forensic evidence?

Did the UK government initially deny that this murderer was comitted by a soldier?

Is this soldier walking around the dead girl's home town, his identity as her killer known to her family?

Cop on.

by jeff Mon Mar 21, 2005 20:07

Devil dog why did you give the title 'Ha' to your comment? Sally Geeson's murder was not funny . Your implication that the British army does not cover up for murder is not funny either - it's a part of the cover -up.
For those that need to be reminded:
http://www.1in12.go-legend.net/publications/archive/stories98/clegg.htm

by Colm Gallagher Mon Mar 21, 2005 20:11 toinanbhaile at hotmail dot com

You have consistently on these threads criticised the inquiry into Bloody Sunday in Derry. Yet the comparisons between BS and the McCartney murder are so glaring that even you can't have missed it!
Did the BA mount a campaign against witnesses. Yes. Even the ones they listened to at Widgery. And the only person to have served time arising out of Bloody Sunday has just been released from prison to go home to the Creggan. No soldiers will ever be found guilty.
Did it clean up any forensic evidence? Yes. What happened to the rifles used to murder 13 people in cold blood in Derry in 1972? Destroyed. No forensics there, then. What happened to the thousands of aerial photos taken by the helicopters on the day. Disappeared. Forensics my arse!
Did the British Government initially deny that the murder was committed by a soldier? Yes, Devil Dog. And, despite all the evidence, there are still elements of the British Establishment that say the Paras did no wrong.
So, get a life.
As for the Provos, the same applies to them. Can they not see the irony of a company of IRA Volunteers, returning from commemorating Bloody Sunday in Derry and visiting a similar tragedy on a family in the Short Strand?
Brits out, I say. Provos out too!

by Séamus Ó Cadhain Mon Mar 21, 2005 20:32

I think your biased argument in this is somewhat simplistic, selective and disingenuous. The British Army has covered up, colluded, intimidated, killed witnesses (Will Stobie, Brian Nelson, Fulton, Wright etc., etc.) on many occasions and any argument that they are somehow above what we have seen in the Short Strand is surely an attempt to elide the facts of history in the interests of tendentious propaganda.

However, as a republican, I am more than uneasy with the inferences on this thread. SF and the RA made a total, abysmal mess of this entire situation, singularly undermining the credibility of the RM on any issue of collusion and justice. The McCartney sisters have been brave and resolute, they have siglemindedly sought out justice regarding their brother's murder and they have every right to use every lever of influence, including (loathsome as he may be) George Bush, at their disposal. It is the silly-minded Trots on this site who always argue they are holier than thou but never have any practicable influence on the world aroundf them. Did Gandhi refuse to negotiate with the British? Mandela with anyone who would hear his call? Enough said. I have no qualms whatever in supporting the McCartney sisters fully and no qualms whatever in mentioning their names alongside such icons of liberty. They are educated, articulate, dynamic women, and that's what has some people on this thread slinging mud.

The fact is that SF and the Army made a disaster of this. The PSNI, cartainly, are delaying the pressing of charges for political reasons. McDowell, no doubt, is secretly enjoying the unfolding vista. But the McCartney's, unfortunately, have no other (or better) source of justice to turn to than the PSNI or even US senators. That the RM is being scrutinised and rightly lambasted reflects, not some failure on the part of the McCartneys, but the need for honourable republicans to reject and purge from their ranks the rancid underbelly on the fringes of the movement who have been a liability for some time.

by Barry Mon Mar 21, 2005 20:36

Its pathetic seeing those who are criticisng the McCartneys for visiting George Bush, when Adams ahs been falling overhimself to get his photograph taken with him this years.

by Devil Dog Mon Mar 21, 2005 20:36

If you can find any post by me criticisng the BS inquiry, please refer me to it...what I may have criticised is SF's one-eyed blinkered view as to who constitutes a victim, demanding inquiries into Nelson, Finucane etc but then wanting to draw the proverbial line under Eniskillen, Kingmills, La Mon etc...and you know what, I can't even remember posting along those lines anyway.

No Jeff, that young girl's murder wasn't funny...nor was your attempt to score debating points out of it either...what was funny was your ridiculous comparison of it to the McCartney case...but more "funny strange" than "funny ha ha".

by Phil Boylan Tue Mar 22, 2005 01:16

I think ths most disgusting thing here is the fact that Republicans are even attempting to defend these guys and the SF/IRA leadership.

McCartney had his throat cut, he was also cut from his stomach up to his sternum, he was beatn with a sewer rod and had his head trampled on. He was then left out in the street to die, whilst the pricks who did it went back inside, cleaned up evidence, and threatened all people present. Now some if not all of these people were members of the IRA. OK they get kicked out of the organisation. Remind why does it still exist in the first place??

It is NOT the army of this or any nation and will never be recognised as such.

It is NOT a police service of this or any nation and will never be recognised as such.

It has perpetrated some of the most dispicable crimes against the people of this nation for over 30 years. It has in the past murdered innocent women for oding nothing more than treating a sick british soldier, and then refusing to allow information as to where the body was buried.

I will not sit here and claim that the BA have acted any better. They have murdered members of the public and joyriders and Republicans, and also colluded with Unionists.

But where the line is drawn, is when the IRA and SF sit there and pull the retarded fucking school boy routine and claim that they have no connection with it.

Personally I think the IRA should be either disbanded or retired or whatever euphamism you want to use to get rid of em.

SF should be stricken from there pensions and other parliamentary benefits from all nations cabinets until such an order is provided. And before anyone says SF has no connection with the IRA. One word answer: BOLLOX. Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA, as was McGuinness, and a number of other members, and I would oubt if they would suddenly either just retire from the organisation or cease to have any dealings with the members or people in that force.

The IRA and SF are making a mockery of the judicial systems of both countries and spitting in the face of anyone who voted for them in the last election.

As for the guys who butchered McCartney, they should be handed over to the PSNI immediately. Not just kicked out, but then brought to a nearby police station and handed over.

by hs - sp Tue Mar 22, 2005 01:38

...of all the times the british used to say all the trouble over bloody sunday was simply pro IRA propaganda, or the birmingham six or guildford four was IRA propaganda, I used to think if the don't want bad publicity don't murder people in the streets. Now when I hear of manipulations and the rest I can't help but think the same thing. He was butchered in the pub by IRA members, the IRA went on to cover it up. And somehow we're supposed to believe his sister's shouldn't be angry. Or they've been tricked into attacking Sinn Fein, having a gang of IRA members butcher your brother savagely in front of a load of sinn fein members (including candidates) is some mean manipulation. The truth is the republican movement is trying to spin it's way out of something and the sisters won't accept it.

by Jonah Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:32

I love Trots. They will sit down and with honest looks on their face and earnestness in their voice explain to you how the control of the media by corporations shapes and twists news reporting. I've even met SP members who refuse to speak to the 'corporate media' at demos and who attack the press for representing the establishment.

But let the media say a single thing negative about republicans and the Socialist Party believe it with all the gullibility and intellectual vacuuousness of the most credible Fianna Fáil backbencher.

'There was an IRA cover-up of the killing'

Would this be the cover-up where the names of the people who carried out the killing were given to the family and expelled from the IRA?

The cover-up what little of it there was, was carried out by the people involved in the attack, has been rightly condemned by republicans, did not involve the IRA as an organisation and the people responsible disciplined.

Republicans are resolute in their pursuit of justice for the McCartneys. Others are resolute in their use of this tragedy as a political football. And some lecture from a Trot who couldn't find the Short Strand with a map and compass and whose party hasn't raised its head to object to sectarian attacks in that area is beneath contempt.

by hilaalabu Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:59 hilaalabu at yahoo dot co dot uk

Brendan Devine from Mayfield Village in Glengormley should already be in jail for his part in a robbery in February last year that took place at Finaghy Post Office in South Belfast. Sentencing was adjourned in January because of the stab wounds he received OUTSIDE Magennis's bar.

John O'Connor from Ardoyne Avenue and Willy Evans from Albert Street are also awaiting sentencing for the same robbery . They all confessed.

Devine has denied charges of malicious wounding and grievous bodily harm two years ago in Belfast . He also denies four other charges, including POSSESION OF A KNIFE , on the same occaision. His co-accused on this occaision is Hughie McCormick from Stanfield Street. Not too much can be said about this incident right now as a trial is still to comence, and we wouldn't want to impede British justice now would we?

How did poor little innocent Robert McCartney end up defending this fine upstanding bird of a similar feather when he started a bar room brawl ?

by mise Tue Mar 22, 2005 13:22

Yes I read that Sally Gleeson story - its a cover up of some sort.

The "accused" set himself on fire and jumped from the 7th story - he was so badlly burnt that the couldnt be recognised.

So how did they know it was him??

This is a big hush job of of some sort!!

by Barry Tue Mar 22, 2005 13:26

This is despite the fact that no less than 3 sinn fein election candidates who were in the bar when these men were butchered didnt see anything ? In fact the bar was full of Sinn Fein and IRA members whod just returned from the Bloody Sunday march in Derry. Not only did no-one see anything, not one had the moral fibre to intervene in anyway at this act of butchery. The killers felt utterly confident in carrying this murder out in full view of over 100 republicans. Jonah should be asking himself why ?

Why did these animals seem to fear no sanction from their movement ? How did they behave so confidently in front of 100 witnesses. ?

While Jonah is absolutely right about politicians cynically using this mans murder as a political football, Sinn Fein are every bit as cynical for their own ends. The fact is the killers thought they would get away with it. They fered no sanction whatsoever from their own organisation, otherwise they wouldnt have done it in the first place, in plain view of so many of their own members.

These people were only expelled after this issue blew up in Adams face at the time he needed it least.

It should be remebered that people from the markets and Short Strand had been complaining about these peoples criminal and thuggish behaviour (including rape) for years and were ignored.

Only a few months ago these very same butchers were among the hundreds of heavies bussed in to the Rathenraw housing estate in Antrim, after the entire Sinn Fein cumann there had resigned because of Sinn Feins links to a drug dealers family which the local cumann wanted removed from their area. That is a matter of public record and was widely reported, yet utterly ignored by the politicians.

In fact Sinn Fein themselves denounced and smeared those who had left them in disgust as criminals, despite the fact they were supporting the individual who had just been caught with about 300,000 quids worth of drugs !!!

Members of the local tenants association, including a pregnant woman and an ex-pow were threatened with death, while hundreds of imported thugs, prominent among them the short strand butcher gang, patrolled the streets of the estate with utter impunity.

Sinn Fein representatives went on the record smearing those who resigned in protest at links to criminality, as common criminals !!!

The fact is that Sinn Fein as a matter of routine, do their utmost to criminalise those who disagree with THEM !! They do not engage in debate, they do not produce any proof, they simply, demonise, criminalise threaten and attack those from within the republican family who reject their brand of stalinism.

These smear tactics are standard Sinn Fein operating procedure and theyve a bloody nerve claiming persecution when they are past masters at what McDowells doing to them. They got themselves into this mess pure and simple, and shouldnt be using Hungerstrikers images to cynically try and worm their way out of it.

The state and the politicians were quite happy to allow this facism and criminality to proceed unhindered as it was helping the peace process and quelling dissent.

Having been encouraged by Adams and McGuinness, and even thanked by the state, for thuggish actions like these over the last 10 years it is no surprise these people thought they could get away with it again.

Were it not for the political furore it is doubtful whether any action at all would have been taken by the provies against these scumbags.

One need only look at the brutal murder of Andrew Kearney in Belfast a few years ago to see that this thuggery was openly tolerated by their leadership. Kearney was murdered simply for standing up for a man who was being battered by a thug in a bar. There were no expulsions over that, and the politicians didnt give a shite either.

Adams and Kellys concerns for justice in Robert McCartneys case seem every bit as shallow and opportunistic as McDowell and Aherns. Theyre all feckin opportunists without an ounce of moral integrity between them.

by Jonah Tue Mar 22, 2005 13:55

If your story about the Rathenraw estate contains as many factual inaccuracies as your version of events in Magennis' bar.

(The men weren't killed in the pub, no-one intervened because it did not take place in front of them, far from thinking they could act with impunity the people responsible were threatened with execution from the Movement, there were not 100 people in the pub at the time and they were expelled after an IRA investigation had been completed and if you think that IRA statement on the investigation helped Adams then you are, simply, a moron)

If you're that dishonest on the McCartney case, it's no surprise to see you mouthing tabloid rumours and Dissident spin on other issues. Rather than me asking myself 'why', the question is how you belioeved you could be so dishonest and not expect to be called on it.

by SP member Tue Mar 22, 2005 14:07

"But let the media say a single thing negative about republicans and the Socialist Party believe it with all the gullibility and intellectual vacuuousness of the most credible Fianna Fáil backbencher."

The Socialist Party does not need the media to tell us about Sinn Fein and the Republican movement. We have had to deal with Sinn Fein for the last 35 years in this country. Like Gerry Adams, members of the SP have met with the McCartney family and are well aware of the involvement of Republicans in the killing of Robert McCartney. The IRA expelled the killers of Robert McCartney - So What. Don't forget, they also offered to execute the same men. This show the mentality of the Republican movement. They want to act as police force, judge, jury and executioner for whatever they feel appropriate, without ever taking into account the wishes of ordinary people and completely outside of their control. The attitude of the Republican mvement in Catholic areas is "this is our terrritory and we will decide what goes here"

In relation to the cover-up you say "Would this be the cover-up where the names of the people who carried out the killing were given to the family and expelled from the IRA? The cover-up what little of it there was, was carried out by the people involved in the attack, has been rightly condemned by republicans, did not involve the IRA as an organisation and the people responsible disciplined."

4 members of the IRA were involved in the killing of Robert McCartney. Another 8 helped them to do a complete clean up of the crime scene in order to ensure that there was no forensic evidence that could be used in court. Many Sinn Fein members were in the pub at the time of the killing, including two election candidates, all claim to have seen nothing (how naive are we supposed to be).

You say "some lecture from a Trot who couldn't find the Short Strand with a map and compass and whose party hasn't raised its head to object to sectarian attacks in that area is beneath contempt."
I know the Short Strand and I am well aware of the difficulties for the community there, as is the Socialist Party as a whole. To suggest that the SP do not campaign against sectarian attacks is beyond belief. The difference between Sinn Fein and the Socialist Party is that we campaign against all sectarian attacks, not just the attacks directed at the Catholic community. In reality the SP and not Sinn Fein are the real campaigners against sectarianism because we are not selective in the sectarian attacks we condemn and campaign against.

The attempt to criminalise "poor little innocent Robert McCartney" by association is a disgrace but again not surprising. If the murder of Robert McCartney is to be excused because of his association with Brendan Devine, then, by extension, the IRA as an organisation are guilty by association because members of the IRA carried out the murder. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Yes, certain political parties are attempting to do political damage to Sinn Fein over the murder of Robert McCartney. But Sinn Fein's primary objective through this whole episode has been one of damage limitation. SF express sympathy for the McCartney family while at the same time republicans intimidate witnesses. Sinn Fein warns the McCartney's not to be duped by opponents of republicanism yet at the same time get into bed with these very same political opponents. Robert McCartney was associating with criminals, so he was not as innocent as protrayed by the media, yet the likelyhood is that he would not have been murdered if the IRA did not have an active service unit in the Short Strand and even if these individuals did murder him they would have not had the organisational back-up to sanitise the crime scene and intimidate witnesses.

Sinn Fein has dug a big political hole for itself by its behaviour in this case. After failing to placade the McCartney family with crocodile tears, the attempt to marginilise the McCartneys will make it even more difficult to get out of the hole.

by Barry Tue Mar 22, 2005 14:52

Nowhere did I claim Robert McCartney was killed inside the bar, and you know this. He was killed just outside the bar, which has large plate glass windows overlooking the murder scene. Maybe those assembled sinn fein members and supporters were afraid of someone stealing their pint if they went outside and stopped this savagery ?

When the killers came back in and threatened the bar staff into handing over the cctv tapes, maybe then they could have intervened against these thugs. Too late to save roberts life, but theyd just chopped 2 men to pieces and were threatening innocent workers. A good time to say "whoah there".

The point of my post IS that they thought they could act with impunity, and that the statement expelling them is simply an act of opportunism in itself. For example Bart Fisher stabbed young fellas to death, TWICE, (actually one of them also had a crowbar rammed through the back of his head) and he didnt get into trouble with Sinn Fein for it.

In fact up until he was jailed for killing one young fella he was still doing bodyguard for Martin McGuinness as well as being employed by Estate Securites in Derry, which is owned by Willie McGuiness. The relatives of the young men he killed were threatened by the provies, one woman actually having a gun put to her head.

Bart is currently serving his time in Maghaberry on the separated wing along with a few PIRA associates. He is nothing but a criminal and a thug, yet he is embraced by them.

Therefore it is hard to understand why the shinners are reacting so strongly against their members in this case. One can only conclude it is as a result of the political furure and not out of common decency or even basic republican discipline.

As for that statement making Adams look bad, he should have thought twice before he wrote it then shouldnt he , the moron ?

by Deirdre Tue Mar 22, 2005 16:51

"Its almost possible to see the strings twiching away when these women come on the tv."

Why do so many male politicos and activists often find it so hard to accept that women might be able to speak out for themselves and might be politically intelligent? They have been involved in community work and community politics, and republican women in the north are typically very conversant with the ins and outs of politics in a way that people in the republic are not. There is no doubt that political parties are jumping on the bandwagon. Campaigns are always used by politicians if they gain momentum and are useful to them in some way, and this one is cynically being used to try to undermine the Sinn Fein vote that threatens other political parties, with the media playing into the mainstream politicians' hands.

While I do have issues with them going to Bush of all people to seek justice in a murder case, I don't doubt that these are intelligent women. They appear to have made a strategic decision that they will use any means possible to achieve the justice they undoubtedly deserve for their brother, and this is understandable, if going too far when it comes to Bush, who cannot even ensure justice for those detained by his own military and in his own country. Having said that, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have been more than happy to shake Bush's hand, and did so in the very charged atmosphere coming up to the invasion of Iraq. So it's a kind of a pot and kettle situation, when it comes to republicans criticising the McCartneys.

by Séamus Ó Cadhain Tue Mar 22, 2005 20:16

Barry, I agree that statements by the SF members present six weeks late was about as unsuspicious as Ian Paisley at a Legion of Mary meeting. This is the real issue. After Adams' emphatic support for the McCartney campaign at the Árd Fheis, it was a real let-down, and I don't accept that SF didn't know about this. It indeed smacks of a cover up.

However, I still think that, as Anthony McIntyre has been saying, the vast majority of honourable, sincere republican activists are members of Sinn Féin and that people like Adams, McGuinness, Kelly and the SF leadership are genuine in their beliefs.

I know you have (very valid) personal reasons for despising the RA, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

by Barry Tue Mar 22, 2005 20:39

I admit that. However I should point out that a number of my friends and neighbours, and even relatives are Sinn Fein members and supporters. They are, as you have pointed out, decent, sincere and genuine individuals. No doubt about that, and we are capable, mostly of living, working, drinking and socialising together, albeit not without difficulty at times. We help each oth3er out on a personal level, thats what friends and neighbours do.

I also know there are others in this community who resent this, and would love to see us divided and at each others throats. They would quite happily threaten, abduct maim or kill myself or anyone with me. I have no doubt about this whatsoever and consider myself lucky thus far.

They are not even republicans, never mind genuine people in my opinion, despite their allegiances. However they are a major factor within my community.

Although I disagree with them politically, at the end of the day my community, friends and neighbours are extremely important and will remain so.

My problem is not with those decent majority of people as individuals, but rather with the sheep mentality prevalent within Sinn Fein, where many utterly decent people are not only unwilling but physically afraid to express a difference of opinion. The consequences of this are genuinely frightening and the people wholly responsible are none other than the leadership, as well as the coterie of thugs which theyve used to enforce their stalinist regime.

As far as I can see my community is being oppressed and silenced through fear. Weve simply swapped one set of oppressors for another, and I am genuinely afraid at times at what the future holds.

Unfortunately, decent as many are, there is no sign of this state of affairs changing within Sinn Fein. It may even get worse. Thats what fear does to even the best of people.

by hs - sp Tue Mar 22, 2005 23:28

No I couldn't find the short strand on a map. So therefore I have no right to say the brutal mutilation of a man was wrong? If thats waht you think fine, i'll try not to speak of anything outside my "territory" again. talk about a border mentality!!! You want a united Ireland but god forbid we have any say in it. The murder was brutal and wrong and the political response of attacking the sisters is almost worse. My god they were "advised", shocking. If the republican movement doesn't want this sort of bad "press" or the government opporturtunisticly taking advantage, hold off your boot boys, don't blame the victim, the man didn't ask to be butchered. And don't blame people for being disgusted because just like bloody sunday it was.

by Crim watch Wed Mar 23, 2005 16:35

Virulent nationalists with socialist pretences.

nationalist socialists

auf Deutsch:
nationalist sozialistisch

NAtionalist soZIalistisch

does it always have to SPELLED out for you people

by jack white Wed Mar 23, 2005 17:38

me: "oh my god, man. Sein Fein are nazi's!"

my flatmate: "what?!"

me: "yeah, yeah, this guy just prove it on indymedia!"

my flatmate:"how"

me: " well he said that sinn fein are nationalists right? and then he pointed out that they have socialist tendencies right? which makes them national socialists!"

my flatmate: "hmmmm"

me: " and then he translated 'national socialist' into german! and in german its 'nationalist sozialistisch' and if you take the first two letters of the first word and the third and fouth letters of the second word IT SPELLS NAZI ! "

my flatmate: "oh for fucks sake...."


More conversations which didn't happen in my house: 'Michael McDowell is satan because all the phone numbers for cop stations in Dublin begin with 666" and "The SWP are nazi apologists... because if you rearrange the letters of their name you can spell 'Sorry! Leprotic swastika.'"

by Spinning Quickly Wed Mar 23, 2005 18:10

Are you trying to insinuate that McCartneys' murder was somehow deserved?

by Agnes Thu Mar 24, 2005 00:09

The murder of Robert McCartney was indeed brutal and horrific, bear in mind noone likes to speak ill of the dead and many people have held their tongues out of respect for the dead.

None of us are angels, and the incident at Magennis's was indeed a small scale stupid bar room brawl that, spiralled out of control OUTSIDE the pub.

Whilst we sympathise with the plight of the McCartney sisters who've lost a brother, it is obvious they are being used and manipulated by the british establishment and the SDLP, who have a vested interest in blackening Sinn Fein's name, with a view to scuppering their election chances. Rest assured once the elections are over, the McCartney sisters will be dropped and forgotten by their fair weather friends.

Mr McCartney's associate who was involved in the initial fracas, was recently up in court for pulling a knife and stabbing someone in a previous fight.
At a start of the argument in which only a couple of people were involved, a knife/broken bottle was used to stab someone, due to this, McCartney and his friend were put out of Magennis's and the stabbed person was rushed to Dundonald hospital. Whilst this man was being taken to the hospital, Mr Cartney and his friend were set upon outside the bar, by unknown others in retaliation for the initial stabbing inside Magennis's.

Those inside the bar be they Sinn fein councillors , or bar clientele, would have no knowledge of, or even seen what happened outside the bar.

Sinn Fein has done everything in its power to resolve the situation and make those involved accountable.

Unfortunately those who live by the sword, die by the sword, and its a sad reflection on our society that insecure people resort so easily to pulling knives on others at the drop of a hat.

by jsr Thu Mar 24, 2005 00:24

Do you really think it bothers the family if some people use their fight for justice as a political tool?

They met Bush, an action meant only to focus media attention on their cause. Bush agreed cos it was an Irish issue around Paddies day. Its not like he cant send in the marines to root out the killers. They would probably meet the leader of the KKK if they though it would help.

They want the killer(s) brought to justice and if making a political issue of gets results, why not?

by mmmmmm Thu Mar 24, 2005 00:24

that is a serious and unsubstantiated allegation to pull off under a pseudonym

were you there?

by Devil Dog Thu Mar 24, 2005 02:59

1. Why have people "held their tongures out of respect for the dead"? What are you accusing Robert McCartney of, exactly here?

2. Once again, despite Shinner spin, this was not a bar-room brawl- a man was gutted, had his throat slit and lost an eye...Again, I challenge the Shinners on this site to describe this slaughter as a "brawl" if it had been carried out by the UVF.

3. Agnes, seeing as you have such detailed knowledge of what went on, were you actually there?

Or are you a typical peace time SF/trucileer?

PARATUS!!!!!!

by Witness of insanity Thu Mar 24, 2005 06:30

I have been reading these comments throughout the day, and I can see why Bush, Blair, and the Dublin government have tried to use this tragic situation. By reading many of these comments, I can see that they have accomplished their goal and have created a flurry of anti Sein Fein and IRA propoganda. Why is it that Mr. Bush appears to care so much about this incident? Here in the city where I live in the U.S there have been at least 2murders per night. Many involving inocent children. Why doesn't Mr. Bush care to do something about these attrocities right in his own house, right under his nose. Instead he brings in the grieving sisters of a young man who died from unfortunate circumstances. I can see this as a payback for Mr. Blair for supporting Mr. Bush as he set out to decimate another people.

by Priest are in the Odyssey tonight Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:27

So Devil Dog, you seem concerned about what Agnes has said and seem to suggest that she may not have been there.

You seem to know exactly what happened. WERE YOU THERE? Have you gone to give your detailed eye witness account to the relevant authorities? OR are you just talking through your arse again? Thought so.

by Barry Fri Mar 25, 2005 13:17

According to the sisters of Robert McCartney, one of the butcher gang, a high ranking provo supposedly expelled and isolated by the Provos actually seems far from isolated.

The man is currently and regularly seen drinking and socialising in the company of another senior PIRA figure in West Belfast.

The Provos stated that by isolating these people and expressing total disapproval of their criminal activities, they would come forward and admit their crimes. Events on the ground seem to be proving otherwise.

With one of the killers helping organise a kiddies St Pats day parade in the Short Strand, and another carrying on socialising openly with senior PIRA figures, it seems that despite the spin these criminals are far from isolated. Thus far though they have shown remarkable self restraint by not stabbing, or even raping anyone else in the last few weeks, but hey, its friday and after a few beers ....well. ( one of these criminals is actually commonly known in the strand/markets by his nickname "the perv". Indymedia readers, I shit you not !!)

It all now seems very similar to the case of Derry knuckle dragger Bart Fisher, who is still embraced by the provos despite stabbing one youngster to death, officially, although he is the prime suspect in another knife/crowbar through the head murder. In fact, he actually boasted to the young mans family how he had murdered their son in such a gruesome way.

I was on a visit to a republican friend incarcerated by the British in Maghaberry last week who told me that Bart distinguished himself yet again just recently. Apparently after the spotlight programme on his criminal activities he hung out the window laughing and shouting obscenities. The actual republicans on the wing, as opposed to provos, were utterly disgusted at this mans presence on their landing not to mention his subsequent behaviour.

Its worth remembering the entire real IRA contingent embarked upon a prolonged and disgusting dirty protest to get separation from exactly the same type of criminal filth the Prison Service and the provos are now bringing on to the wing.

People are now considering another dirty protest to have this type of criminal removed. As my mate said, "the boys would rather have shit on the walls, than Bart Fisher on the landing. Its less distasteful"

by Curious Fri Mar 25, 2005 19:08

Why dont the SP stand in East Belfast and see how many votes they get?

by no knives,no guns just fists please Sat Mar 26, 2005 00:12

No insinuations are being made about Mr McCartney, but there is substantiated allegations about his associate, who was reknowned for pulling knives, and was previously up in court for stabbing someone else. Mr McCartney may have made an error of judgement and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

A person who pulls a knife is playing for keeps, it is a life and death situation, that person will either stab/injure/kill someone, or if he is unlucky, the person he is attempting to stab, will disarm him, and in the process of disarming him, will stab him.

Those who know how to disarm a person weilding a knife/bottle, know the precise technique taught in self defence classes, will result in the knife weilder being stabbed himself, the knife weilder will in fact stab himself, if the person he attacks knows how to disarm him.

In the olden days 1950's/60's, those who resorted to pulling knives in the process of unarmed, one to one fair physical fights, were thought of akin to weakling sex offenders, but unfortunately these days it has become acceptable amongst psychos who want to appear tough and need to win fights at all costs.

It certain situations such as male on female domestic violence it is understandable for the fairer sex/women to resort to grabbing knives to defend themselves, if they're being severely beaten by physically stronger bullying fellas, in which case knife weilding is justifiable.

Pub brawls in loyalist areas, usually result in all out gun battles in the street, and whole pubs being shot up, which is probably less dangerous than fighting with knives.

by Witness To Insanity Sat Mar 26, 2005 21:14

Last night in the city where I live there were another 3 killings. So far no one has been caught or charged with these and other killings. Those who were witnesses have been killed left and right there is no one protecting these witnessess. The police are not doing their job. Then they wonder why no one else is coming forth and telling the police what they have seen or know. So where is Mr. Bush, and the congress on these killings, where a number of innocent children have been slayed. And the murderers have not been caught. The parents of these slain children don't have any special invitation to meet with Mr. Bush. As a matter of fact he would not even give them the time of day, because this just exposes the rise in criminality that has taken place here in the U.S.over the last few years. He can not use this to his political advantage. Like paying back Mr. Blair.

Mr. Bush and Blair the leaders of governments that have carried out some of the greatest mass killings in history. Which they have done through imperialism, and colonization. Starting with Ireland which was England's first colony. Then working their way around the globe wiping out entire populations of people. These types of massacres were carried on further by the U.S. here in the Americas, and other parts of the globe. In Vietnam alone there were over 3 million people massacred. Don't forget the Native peoples of the Americas, as well as Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. The only country in history that ever used a nuclear weapon against a people.

And right now they are still responsible for killing people in Iraq, Columbia, Haiti, Guatamala, and other parts of the world.

And with the patriot act, they can disappear anybody right here in the U.S. which they have done already. So if the McCartney sisters want justice why are they coming to the belly of the beast to get it?

Just as I don't see justice coming to the Irish, by having Gerry Adams come here to meet with The Belly master Mr. Bush.

I understand that politicians need to play politics. But I feel the the Irish cannot rely on the perpetrators of injustice to get it.

Gerry Adams and Sein Fein want to do it through the peace process, but they also need to remember by relying on the U.S., British, and Dublin governments they are making a pact with the devil, who is well versed on breaking peace treaties. Just ask the Native Americans of this land here.