Communities Against the Water Tax Progress in the North-West

by . Sun Feb 13, 2005 14:39

This posting is so bitter that I am forced to ask why?

CAWT is part of a wider coalition including socialists, what is the problem?

BTW a real report on the activity of CAWT in Derry and the part played by socialists might help.

by Fanelli - Organise! Sun Feb 13, 2005 15:02

In fairness when any sort of left wing party enter a coalition or campaign the first thoughts of any of these organisations is what political capital can we gain and how do we control it to our benefit.

Individual socialist campaigners of course do great work but sadly the party mindset is all about politricking and political games.

Just look at the Bin Taxes campaign in the south, anti war campaigns and anti-racist campaigns.

Great socialist activists on the ground there but then the ol' party mentality kicks in and its all about control and manipulation.

This article rightly warns against this mentality.

by . Sun Feb 13, 2005 15:09

still no real report on CAWT in Derry, wonder why?

socialists set up CAWT others then joined it, including Organise.

by Declan Sun Feb 13, 2005 15:18

Are Organise the anarchist version of the Sparticist League?

by Seanito - Organise! Sun Feb 13, 2005 16:00

Surely, the key thing here is about building a grassroots campaign grounded in our communities and workplaces and based on solidairity and mass-non-payment, not about petty squabbles which mean fuck all and irrelevent to the wider issue of buliding class unity and resistance.
What the fuck is wrong with the article?
As for the comment made by some twat that Organise! is the anarchist version of the Sparts go into the corner and shut up because yr comment is ignorent of reality and damnright lies without any sort of backup

by . Sun Feb 13, 2005 16:40

Seanito I take it that you did read the opening article of this thread?

It starts with an attack on socialists, makes accusations that the campaign is only there for election reasons and states that 'yahoos have fucked off' after the election. After crap like that dont expect glowing tributes to your organisation (unless you have evidence to back it up of course).

"Surely, the key thing here is about building a grassroots campaign grounded in our communities and workplaces and based on solidairity and mass-non-payment, not about petty squabbles which mean fuck all and irrelevent to the wider issue of buliding class unity and resistance."

Couldnt have put it better myself, now get on with it!


Btw I notice that you still havn't given a real report of CAWT in Derry, could it be because the work on the ground is getting done by SOCIALISTS?

by Liam - CAWT Sun Feb 13, 2005 16:55 Derry

I'm involved in Communities Against the Water Tax in Derry. It is going well, but it's hard work as most people don't know a lot about what is going on. Most think that if you're on benefits, you won't have to pay, which is, of course, wrong. So, we're having to go door to door with leaflets, explaining what's happening (because lots of people don't read leaflets that are just put through doors) and urging people to get involved, become a CAWT organiser in their own street, park or whatever. I'm glad the anarchists are going to get involved in CAWT, because we could do with them pitching in. At present, it's mainly trade unionists, socialists from the SEA and SWP and individuals who have been brought into activity through CAWT.

So far, I haven't met any anarchists actually DOING anything with CAWT out in the local communities - although there was one guy who introduced himself as an anarchist at a city centre meeting.

by Observer Sun Feb 13, 2005 17:16

Great to see at last the moaners who always point the finger and occupy the morla high ground- get exposed as the liars and "spart" types they are: ...
..."So far, I haven't met any anarchists actually DOING anything with CAWT out in the local communities".
good luck to the campaign!

by Fanelli - Organise! -- Personal Capacity Sun Feb 13, 2005 17:22

. if socialists on the ground in Derry are doing such a great job then report it yourself, write up your own report. I for one would be interested in reading this such a report. Seriously though, you dont honestly expect Organise! to write up your reports for you do you?

Organise! members act within and report from their own communities.

It is the opinion of most (if not all) members of Organise! and perhaps even most anarchists that a socialist led campaign is generally aimed at benefitting that party at the ballot box.

Its been done time and time before, working towards the almighty vote is most socialist parties (note im not saying socialist as in an individual, but referring to the party mindset) goal.

Anarchists dont have a hidden (or overt) agenda. We just aim towards a classless society, without bosses or government built around mutual aid. Socialist party's (note the party's again) have a vested interest in doing well at the ballot box and gaining seats in power (why, i have yet to understand).

btw here is another article from the latest edition of WCR, just read and think about it

http://flag.blackened.net/infohub/organise/content.php?article.617.3

by . Sun Feb 13, 2005 17:34

"The Communities Against the Water Tax (CAWT) has been making steady progress in the north-west with meetings in the Cityside and Waterside both declaring their support for a campaign of non-payment
The Communities Against the Water Tax (CAWT) has been making steady progress in the north-west with meetings in the Cityside and Waterside both declaring their support for a campaign of non-payment

Local Anarchists have been active in their communities in opposition to this tax and in stressing the need in particular for solidarity with striking water service workers. CAWT has done good work in Derry"

Admitt it you have been caught out. You give the impression that you are involved in Derry but you are not. So ends the Organise intervention in water charges!

by nab-d Sun Feb 13, 2005 17:42

Fanelli - Organise! -- Personal Capacity? Anarchaists have no hidden agenda?? Why lie then in an article saying you are involved in the CAWT, when an activist from that campaign states clearly they haven't seen any narachist involved in it. You were taking a cheap shot at others and you got caught.

by EmEeTeeHaitchOhDee Sun Feb 13, 2005 17:49

The thing I'm curious about is why exactly Organise! have picked CAWT as the anti-water charge campaign to get involved in. Those of you in the South might not know this but there are a whole bunch of anti-water tax campaigns, loosely united under an umbrella set up by the unions.

CAWT is the SWP dominated campaign, at least in Derry, the place where its main profile is. Maybe I'm missing something here but normally the letters "SWP" act as a warning sign for saner activists.

by Fanelli - Organise! -- Personal Capacity Sun Feb 13, 2005 18:05

Communities Against the Water Tax does not equal Anarchists Against the Water Tax or Socialist Against the Water Tax you tosser!

Is it or is it not a community based campaign?

nowhere in the article does it imply that Organise! or anarchists or for that matter socialists do the bulk of the work in Derry.

it simply reported that the CAWT had made progress in the Cityside and Waterside.

IT DID NOT READ, anarchist campaigners from Organise! have lead a great victory for the CAWT by getting the Cityside and Waterside to support a campaign of non-payment.

does it? no, exactly, so your just pulling cheap shots now, rather pathetic ones as well.

WCR is a working class news sheet, not a mouthpiece of some wanky political agenda of some washed up trot faction.

by . Sun Feb 13, 2005 18:32

Put another way.

You thought that you would post a thread that attempted to ride on the back of the CAWT in Derry.
But you couldnt control yourself and had to add on a sectarian rant against everyone else in the CAWT.
Now you have come unstuck and have to deny the origional nature of your article.

You know what the pity in all this is, Organise DO have a good record on the water tax they dont need to hide behind Derry CAWT!

by Fanelli - Organise (Personal Capacity) Sun Feb 13, 2005 22:22

Lets make this easy for you to understand shall we . ?

First of all this is an article from our news sheet, Working Class Resistance so it wasn’t some out of the blue ride on the back of Derry CAWT!

Second, readers of WCR are working class people from across Ireland many of whom are interested in the water tax struggle elsewhere in the North hence why news of CAWT activity in Cityside and Waterside were included in the latest issue.

Also, if you are bothered to have an actual proper discussion you will notice that the latest edition of WCR could possibly be entitled the Water Tax Issue due to the amount of coverage we give to the issue. This article is but a wee paragraph.

Considering there was little news of Water Tax issues on Indymedia I decided to post this article along with an update on the latest edition of Working Class Resistance.

To refer to your points.

This is hardly a sectarian rant against everyone else (when did the rest of the CAWT become socialists, thought this was about community resistance) when we are simply pointing out that in these situations its usually the norm that the likes of the SWP use these movements for their own electoral advantage, just look at the Bin Tax protests in Dublin.

Oh and by the way I have hardly denied the original nature of the article when it was to:

a) update our readers about the activities of CAWT
b) warn our readers that political parties are rarely interested in just their problems

I think we can both agree that these points have been re-iterated the entire way through this thread.

And yes, Organise! do have a good track record in regards to the water tax and we don’t hide behind Derry CAWT but we will report on its activities when its of interest to our readers. We will also criticise those who we see this latest attack on Working Class families as an opportunity for themselves at the ballot box.

by barry Mon Feb 14, 2005 02:17

water charges loom on the horizon.
And you idiots are fighting with each other over shite talk.
No-one gives a shite about anarchists/spartacists etc,.Wise up.

by Shane - Friends of Durruti - Jack White Cumann Mon Feb 14, 2005 14:44 shaneocurry at fastmail dot fm

Pity about the sniping. I bet everyone from the SDLP to Fianna Fail and the Tories are rubbing their hands at this spectacle of leftist internicine squabbling.

Like I said, unfortunately I missed the march on Saturday. I heard reports that the turn-out was disappointing. Perhaps we could have a constructive discussion with those who organised this one about how we can build for a bigger one next time - whatever their political hue. I myself am involved in organising a couple of meetings in Ballymac-Hazelbank in March. I could also do Rosemount and the Glen. But we need more bodies and people prepared to do boring legwork and going around door-to-door. Maybe we could turn some of that energy spent on slagging off other revolutionaries into building a campaign against this attack on the working class? just an idea

ps. all these references to the "North West", I had to read a couple of paragraphs before I could be sure it was Derry that was being talked about, and not Coleraine or Carndonagh or Letterkenny. Have 'Organise!' gone all BBC on us, afraid to use the word 'Derry' (a word which absolutely does not offend working class protestants in Derry).

by Stig of the dump Mon Feb 14, 2005 16:30

"Maybe we could turn some of that energy spent on slagging off other revolutionaries into building a campaign against this attack on the working class? just an idea"

Hope you don't disappear before the campaigning hots up like some of the 'revolutionaries' down here.

by eeekkkk Mon Feb 14, 2005 16:51

What a Wonderful World

by Fiona - CAWT Mon Feb 14, 2005 17:04 Belfast

I agree with Shane on this - there's already too much division between those opposing the water charges - unions, community campaign and socialist/anarchist groups without more being stirred up.

To be fair to all concerned, CAWT is a very broad campaign which has managed to include a very wide range of people. It was set up by the Anti Poverty Network and Cliftonville Community Regeneration Forum and is supported by several hundred community groups, bigger voluntary organisations like Gingerbread as well as by almost all of the left-wing groups: SWP, IRSP, CPI, SEA and Organise!

Which group dominates depends, as far as I can see, by which group is strongest in a particular area. So, the IRSP dominate in Twinbrook, the SWP dominate in Ballynafeigh [both Belfast]. In Derry, where the left seems to be dominated by the SEA, it is the main group organising CAWT, while in Portadown/Lurgan, it is Organise! The problem seems to be that these groups don't work very well WITH each other. The Socialist Party refuse to join CAWT for some reason and have their own "Don't Pay" campaign.

However, it must be stressed that if this campaign is going to work then the Left is far too small to continue to be the main organisers. We have to get local people running these groups. I know that this is already the case in Derry in at least 2-3 of the areas. I am told the SEA organised CAWT meetings in Galliagh, Creggan and Tullyally but worked with community workers and local people to ensure that the CAWT groups are not dominated by SEA activists. This is the way things should be. If we leave it to community workers alone, they will dominate it. If we leave it to Lefties alone, they will dominate it. Community workers/socialists/anarchists should be involved only to help local people get organised.
CAWT can be contacted through the Anti Poverty Network [email protected]

by Barry Mon Feb 14, 2005 17:18

This is an issue which affects everyone, and so everyone should work together and not use it as an attempt to create their own base, especially if such an attempt is doomed to failure in the first place. This type of squabbling will simply deter interested people from having anything to do with the campaigns in the first place. Put the working class first, and not your own egos/factions.

And Im not fucking paying and thats that.

by socialist Mon Feb 14, 2005 19:01

even after anarchism stops being so fashionable? we'll see, btw the socialists have been there 30 years and counting, (even when it wasn't fashionable)

by swp Mon Feb 14, 2005 19:07

the anarchists of organise are more interested in using the campaign to attack people of differing politics, a pretty cynical agenda if you ask me

by Troll watcher - none Mon Feb 14, 2005 19:50

The last two comments seem to me to be from trolls who don't want a serious debate about how to get the water charges campaign working well. I, for example, would like to hear from people who helped defeat water charges in Dublin and Waterford. Or people who have been in Bolivia or South Africa and involved in the anti-water privatisation campaigns there. Of course, some people don't want that kind of debate here.

by socialist2 Mon Feb 14, 2005 19:54

although it may suprise organise ( and probably annoy them) socialists do not see elections as everything, if they did it would have been unlikely some of the stands that have been taken. as well as electoral work socialist parties are involved in alot of day to day grind, especially in suburban working class estates where few politicians or activiists of any stripe go, this of course rarely makes the news so the lads in organise probably don't hear about it. Elections themselves offer the chance for socialists to place an alternative viewpoint, something which shouldn't be ignored.
For a recent example of non electoral work see:

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=68551

by Mairtin - Organise Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:10 m_o_cathain at hotmail dot com

To clarify, I wrote this article for our bulletin, WCR, and Fanelli posted it up here. I'm sorry if some people took it as an attack on CAWT or on socialists, the more pointed references in it are really intended towards nationalist and unionist parties, but I guess people can interpret it whatever way they want. All I will say is that limits of space prevented adding more information. My legs have been well and truly slapped anyway.

Regarding Shane's PS on another type of sectarianism, we'll have that conversation about Londaindoire, comrade, at some point in the future.

by Organise! Tue Feb 15, 2005 21:42

I would just like to further add that i agree with most that has been said in terms of the neccessity to put aside political differences as Shane mentioned to build a mass campaign.
Turnout was pretty poor in Belfast but you can put that down to a number of reasons. Most importantly, leraning from the poll tax and the defeat of the water tax down south, resistance only grows and gets stronger as time and confidence builds up.
Personally, i feel the We Won't Pay and CAWT should join together because it will only benefit the state in the long run, but that is up to individuals and groups involved. Why not?
Lastly, what must be stressed and i think is vital is that WE CANNOT rely on empty promises from trade union fat cats and politicians because we all know the results of that! Direct action and struggles are the only way to indirectly keep pressure on our local MLAs and sucessfully defeat double taxation/water reform.
Glad to see we are all making progress across the north with so much still to do!- solidarity/legal framework, etc

by Fallacy of Composition Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:19

I Agree Fiona
A broad church campaign is the only effective way of putting the scare on the conservative parties. And such a campaign would also be successful for each of its constituent parties.

“I, for example, would like to hear from people who helped defeat water charges in Dublin and Waterford”

Same here Troll Watcher, I’m all for constructive criticism but on this its also constructive thinking hat time people. For a future re-fight against the water/poll tax here in the South as much parties, community organisations, personalities, silicon based entities whatever! etc should be involved as possible.

However Fanelli’s bickering is not helpful. (And perhaps neither is this question, but anyway)
A question to Fanelli; Aren’t the outcomes of Anarchism and Market Fundamentalism the same, in that the strong dominate the weak and vulnerable?

by Waterboy Wed Feb 16, 2005 13:27

I would guess about 400, maybe more, turned out for last Saturday's march in Belfast.

There were a number of trade union banners, including AMICUS and UNISON.

But most of marchers seemed to be members/friends/supporters of the left groups. There were banners from the Workers Party, Organise, the Socialist Party, the Socialist Environmental Alliance, the Communist Party and the IRSP.

And, from the right groups, Reg Empey and Bob McCartney turned up (won't politicians do just about anything in the hope of getting on TV?)

Some people seemed disappointed with the turnout, but as the imposition of charges is still some time away I would not expect many 'ordinary people' to come out this early in the campaign.

Anyone know how it went in Stroke City and Enniskillen?

by Joseph King - Workers Solidarity Movement Wed Feb 16, 2005 13:40 wsm_ireland at yahoo dot com P.O. Box 1528, Dublin 8

“I, for example, would like to hear from people who helped defeat water charges in Dublin and Waterford”

Gregor Kerr, who was secretary of the Federation of Dublin Campaigns Against the Water Charges, wrote about it for the Workers Solidarity Movement's magazine, Red & Black Revolution

You can check it out at:
www.struggle.ws/rbr/pdf_3.html

by Howie Wed Feb 16, 2005 13:56

You can get straight to the WSM's full account of the anti-water charges campaign, in the article "Winning the Water War", here:

http://www.struggle.ws/rbr/rbr3_water.html

I don't think it was written by Gregor though.

The Socialist Party have also produced an in-depth account of the campaign, "The Water Charges Struggle: The lessons for today":

http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/viewspring01.htm

Both are well worth looking at. The SP were the major political organisation involved in the campaign, but the WSM were also involved right from the early stages. For people involved in the campaigns in the North they should be essential reading.

by barry - none Wed Feb 16, 2005 15:17

Here's a link to the We Won't Pay website: www.wewontpay.tk

by pc Wed Feb 16, 2005 17:01

i often find it difficult to keep up with what happening in service charge campaigns, it would be great if someone? were to do a time line... of occurances in the water tax to see the momument for and against the water tax, ala and now we look again at the choosing the topic bintax instead of service taxes or something http://www.indymedia.ie/index.php?topic=bintax®ion=&language=

by Gregor Kerr - WSM 1st May - pers. cap. Wed Feb 16, 2005 17:48 kerrgregor at yahoo dot co dot uk

I can't claim credit for the excellent (!) analysis of the water charges campaign 'Winning The Water War' referred to above - it was actually written by Dermot Sreenan. You can access almost everything written by WSM members about the anti-water charge battles by going to http://www.struggle.ws/water_wsm.html
and you will find a plethora of articles/comments on the bin tax campaigns at http://www.struggle.ws/wsm/bins.html

by Unity Wed Feb 16, 2005 19:19 Derry

The Derry march also had about 400 and was dominated by trade unions and community groups - there were CAWT banners from Tullyally, Creggan and Galliagh but there were people there also from every other area of the town. It was particularly good to see a decent turnout from Waterside Protestant estates.

I really want to ask Barry and other SP people why they will not join with CAWT to make one non-payment campaign. CAWT has the backing of so many of the community and voluntary organisations, as well as just about the rest of the left, it seems like the SP are just trying to confuse things. Also, I saw a leaflet on the Derry march being given out by the two SP people who were on it. The leaflet said that the 'Don't Pay' campaign is the only non-payment campaign. That's just lies. Every leaflet produced by CAWT has 'don't pay' on it and advocates a mass non-payment campaign.

Why is the SP doing this?????

by Howie Wed Feb 16, 2005 19:34

Thanks for the link Gregor.

Another - truly vast - archive of articles about the anti-bin tax struggle can be found on the Socialist Party anti-bin tax website. I haven't bothered to count them all but they run well into the hundreds.

www.socialistparty.net/bintax/index.htm

A third archive exists on Indymedia of course. It isn't as vast in terms of actual articles as the SP one and the quality is much less even than either the SP or the WSM ones but it is still worth looking at. Just use the filters on the newswire to find the goods.

by Howie Wed Feb 16, 2005 19:40

On 12 February, hundreds are expected to take to the streets across Northern Ireland as part of a day of action called by the Coalition Against Water Charges (CAWC).

Demonstrations and protests are useful tools to mobilise and express the anger of people against water charges, but unfortunately on their own, divorced from mass non-payment, they will not defeat water charges.

Many groups involved in the CAWC however believe that this strategy of political pressure and lobbying can stop water charges. The We Won't Pay Campaign disagrees with this strategy. Government ministers have consistently refused to listen to the opposition of the majority of people, including trade unions, political parties and voluntary organisations. In fact, the charging mechanisms and preparations to privatise the service are already at an advanced stage.

Most groups in CAWC are opposed to mass non-payment as the key to defeating water charges. In an interview given to the BBC, Tom Gillen of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, speaking on behalf of CAWC, stated "I don't mind paying for water if I am not paying for the infrastructure, let the government pay for the infrastructure" (BBC News, 26 Jan). This statement reveals a meek acceptance of water charges, but with some minor adjustments to the present proposals from the government. This is the dominant view of the leadership of CAWC.

Other influential groups such as the Northern Ireland Anti-Poverty Network (NIAPN) refuse to make the call for mass non-payment, rather stating that they will defend people who don't pay the charges. But without the majority of people organised in a non-payment campaign before charges are introduced, it will be too late to defeat the water charges.

Others groups like Communities Against the Water Tax have attempted to build a campaign through existing structures like District Councils and community organisations. So far, District Council public meetings have failed to attract crowds. Instinctively, people correctly do not expect the right-wing parties on these Councils to fight against the charges.

Aside from some noble exceptions, many community organisations actually rely on government-funding and many are in effect controlled by political and paramilitary groups. Instead of acting as a vehicle to organise the communities, many community organisations will act as a break on organising non-payment. If groups fear their funding will be withdrawn from being associated with building mass non-payment, many will turn against non-payment.

The Socialist Party believes building the We Won't Pay Campaign as an independent, membership-based and explicitly non-payment campaign is the most important task for those wishing to defeat water charges.

continues at www.socialistparty.net

by Curious Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:09

"The Socialist Party believes building the We Won't Pay Campaign as an independent, membership-based and explicitly non-payment campaign is the most important task for those wishing to defeat water charges."

What is the Socialist Partys attitude towards the Campaign Against the Water Tax?
Is it not also an independent membership-based and explicitly non-payment campaign?

by Mairtin - Organise Thu Feb 17, 2005 13:07 m_o_cathain at hotmail dot com

It seems we've come full circle on the sectarianism thingy. But if the SP want to organise their own campaign, so what? Maybe I'm just dim but it doesn't follow for me that separate campaigns will give a picture of disunity, sounds like the left has still got an inflated sense of its own importance, i.e. that people opposed to us actually give a fuck. The SP were clearly out of order for trying to claim, if they did, that they are the only non-payment campaign, but the more the merrier. CAWT, as I undertsand it, is only an umbrella for a range of localised non-payment campaigns. Others might appear and if they do then fair play - we don't need a monolith, we need variety - all united chiefly and singly by our refusal to pay.

by JH Thu Feb 17, 2005 14:29

Organise may well support non payment but that does not mean that all CAWT groups do,
as far as I am aware CAWT has not taken a definative non payment position but they may well do as things develop

by Alan Thu Feb 17, 2005 14:41 AlanGal_7 at hotmail dot com Belfast

While I agree with Martin that there's nothing wrong with letting 'many flowers bloom' in terms of opposition to the water charges, that should be based on fraternal relationships between the different campaigns. We may not need a monolith but we do need to know which estates are organised [genuinely, with reps that everyone knows etc] and those which are not. We need to know that everyone knows about legal representation, should it come to that.
I am quite concerned from what I read about the Bin Charges campaign in the South and know from the anti-war movement up here that the SP will not work in a fraternal manner with the rest of us. The kind of misrepresentations of other campaigns that we see above just reinforces that fear. CAWT does not work through district councils etc. It organises meetings in areas that look and sound just like the 'Don't Pay' campaign, with the difference that it is local people from a broad range of political views - not only socialists. The CAWT groups set up from these meetings are autonomous, not under the control of one political group. It's just too easy for the SP to pretend that there is no difference between Communities Against the Water Tax and the Coalition Against Water Charges. The Coalition is very top down, run by the ICTU, really against non-payment and pretty useless. CAWT is bottom up and explicitly for non-payment.
Another misrepresentation is to say that the NI Anti Poverty Network does not explicitly call for a non-payment campaign. The community group I work for is affiliated to NIAPN and we get huge amounts of info from them about how to organise a non-payment campaign. In fact, the current issue of Anti Poverty News has a long article defending the non-payment campaign against the kind of arguments from Sinn Fein and the SDLP that it will be another rent and rates strike disaster.

by Zebbeddee Thu Feb 17, 2005 17:02

I think the main reason for two campaigns goes back to the beginning.

The SP felt right from the off that the only campaign that would really matter, other than industrial action from the workers concerned, would be a non-payment campaign. So they went and started to organise one, setting up the We Won't Pay Campaign as a broad structure.

In the early days CAWT was not explicitly committed to a non-payment campaign although some within it felt that was the way to go. CAWT is now I understand thankfully committed to non-payment.

As to which organisation is "broader" or more representative, CAWT clearly includes more of the left groups and is clearly stronger in Derry. The experience of the other marches and events around the north suggests that elsewhere it is the WWP that is better rooted.

Should the two get together? Well ideally yes but there already is an umbrella campaign that both are affiliated to so the matter isn't that pressing right now unless the two start stepping on each others toes.

To be honest I have more faith in the SP's ability to organise on the ground on this kind of stuff with their record on water and bin tax in the south and the poll tax in Britain then I do in any of the other left groups but what really matters is building campaigns that actively involve large numbers of people beyond the usual suspects. It doesn't greatly matter to me who it is who organises a particular street as long as it is done. If WWP do it then great, if CAWT do some places than thats great too.

by . Fri Feb 18, 2005 01:08

interested, suprised and pleased to hear that NIAPN is directly calling for non payment.

Perhaps you could reproduce a NIAPN statement/article or post a link to that effect?

by Alan Fri Feb 18, 2005 13:55 Belfast

Anyone on the march last Sat in Belfast would have heard the woman from NIAPN call explicitly for non-payment, so don't know why you surprised. Only have the stuff in hard copy. Suggest you phone NIAPN and ask them to send you a copy of Anti Poverty News.

by . Sat Feb 19, 2005 00:27

because NIAPN is a strange organisation, one of its members is Fianna Fail. Not well known for its support of non payment!

BTW not everyone was in Belfast, there where other demos you know.

by fukin eejit - stupid wankers Sat Feb 19, 2005 04:39 c c

NIAPN does not call on people to refuse to pay water charges, together with 'Communities Against Water Tax' which had 7 members at the Belfast march and was embarassingly praised by the right-wimg bureaucracy of NIC-ICTU-NPSA-TGWU praising them as being the people that are doing the work against water charges (they have nothing by the way) Proof of that was the complete lack of any geniune community representatives from Communities Against Wate Tax on the march. They only work through professional 'community' 'workers'.. all dependent on government funding by the way!!!
NIAPN only claims to defend people who do not pay water charges... which is not a non-payment position. NIAPN are completely opposed to mass non-payment. 'Communities Against Water Charges' have argued that meetings be called through the District Councils and that a campaign be built through this way. Communities Against Water Tax did not call for mass non-payment from the platform on Saturday, fact!!!!

by Belfastafar Sat Feb 19, 2005 16:36

Is there any substance in these claims re CAWT and NI - APN

by Alan Sat Feb 19, 2005 17:36 Belfast

There is NO substance to these allegations about CAWT and NIAPN, as has already been made clear on this thread. CAWT does NOT only work through 'professional community workers'. It tries to work WITH them where possible, but against them where necessary (if they oppose non-payment). Interestingly, the question isn't whether the community workers are funded or not, but whether they are part of certain political parties. So, CAWT has had little trouble with working with community workers in Protestant areas but in Catholic ones (where many community workers are SF or SDLP hacks), it's had to work around or against them.

As for NIAPN having a FIANNA FAIL member in it - this is the North, for pete's sake, how does it get to have a Fianna Fail member in it? Anyway, I can only go by the NIAPN publications we get through the door and they are all clearly FOR non-payment, actually advocating it, not just defending those not paying. And I can't say I've seen anything even vaguely Fianna Fail-ish in anything from NIAPN.....methinks that Troll has forgotten this is a debate about the North!!

by Zebbeddee Sat Feb 19, 2005 18:03

As someone symathetic to the We Won't Pay Campaign I have to say that I dont think that the tone taken by fukin eejit is very helpful. Whatever the problems with CAWT they are basically on the same side.

I can deal with a few of the points made by both fe and alan. Fianna Fail has members in the north, mostly ex stoops. It just doesnt contest elections. I dont know if any of its members are in CAWT and dont care.

I went and looked around the NIAPN website because of this debate here and found lots of stuff about water charges BUT it has to be said no call for non-payment anywhere. That could have changed and they mightnt have gotten round to putting it on the site though.

CAWT didnt initially call for non-payment itself but it DOES now. I can confirm that they didnt make that call from the demo platform at least as far as I could hear. They were pretty much invisible on the demos outside of Derry but definitely the strongest on the one there.

The thing about funded community organisations and district councils is exaggerated by fe but it is a real difference between WWP and CAWT. Southerners often dont understand just how much of a state funded community sector, mostly staffed by party hacks, there is in the north.

Now really, shouldnt fe and Alan be too busy getting out and building non-payment to be squabbling on here?

by . Sat Feb 19, 2005 19:11

The point I was making about Fianna Fail is not that there is one member of that scum party in NIAPN. It is that Fianna Fail is an Affiliate of NIAPN.

The whole point of that comment is that it is very hard for NI NGO's to take a real independent stand on things as they are part of the establishment in one way or another.

by Aldo Sun Feb 20, 2005 16:36

This discussion is just getting silly.

Why would Mairtin - Organise! feel the need to go it alone as a micro grouping? Surely CAWT is the best way to fight the water charges.

What have YOU lot got to offer working class people? I would say nothing but further division! You can't even agree on a name for heavens sake, what will you be called next year?

Why doesn't your group simply just join the WSM and get on with things...Or is it that you lot DO have a problem with the Derry/Londonderry thing as your politics on Ireland here online spells that out.

Aldo

by Jason Brannigan - Organise! personal capacity Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:52

Mairtin in Derry is not going it alone, he may not be attending meetings in every area they are happening but is and will remain involved in his community. Elsewhere Organise! are and have been active in CAWT from early on.

Back last Summer before the SWP/SEA got involved in Derry while they were doing a spot of electioneering for Eamon McCann we were doing door to door work with other CAWT activists in South and later North Belfast. Thats not to knock the fact that the SWP/SEA have joined CAWT and done much of the work in Derry but there is a difference of emphasis and a clear and fundamental difference of opinion between anarchists and others on the party political left in relation to elections. There is no disagreement in relation to working with CAWT and building a mass non-payment based campaign in working-class communities.

I hope that the great work of SEA and SWP activists in Derry is not distracted by upcoming elections and that we can all work together in building a community based non-payment campaign. What is important is that this campaign is based on non-payment and built and run directly by the working class people who are the targets of this attack.

Organise! will continue to be involved in CAWT and in relation to members of that group on the Belfast demo - many people involved with CAWT marched behind different banners on the day - their union banner, party or organisation banner. I don't think numbers behind the CAWT banner give a fair indication of its strength or weakness although much more work in our communities needs to be done.

Aldo, we have worked with and will continue to work with the WSM on a number of issues. Some months back we held a public meeting on water charges in Belfast addressed by a member of the WSM who had been an anti-water charges activist in Dublin. Your comments about us going it alone and 'joining' the WSM are quite simply ignorant and in my opinion deliberate shit stirring.