Labour Youth says no to Rabbitte's election strategy

by Clarity Mon Nov 22, 2004 22:11

Lets make this very clear.

Labour youth do not oppose coalition. What they oppose is pre election pacts.

there is a huge difference.

there is no group of LY members that are ideologically opposed to coalition with FG.

by anon Mon Nov 22, 2004 23:05

maybe they don't oppose it yet but they have to start somewhere. why don't you try and talk them into opposing coalitions with right wing parties instead of being a hurler in the ditch.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN personal capacity Mon Nov 22, 2004 23:29 breathc at hotmail dot com

I agree that LYs rejection of a pre-election pact is a small but good start and marxists should engage in discussion with LY activists re the whole question of coalition. The problem is that when faced with the rightward drift from old style social democracy to blairism, the old ideology can sound very radical: so Brendan Howlin and Ruairi Quinn, the old 'Springite' right, now seem left wing just by standing still as the rightward shift occurs.

Of course, this is not only a question of which party to join in government with, or even coalition in general, it is a question of different conceptions of power: where social democrats, even of the left variety, see power as residing almost solely in the formal institutions of government, marxists see power as a question of class rule within all structures of society. I would welcome a discussion with socialists in LY about this question. For a start (blatant plug!) they might read and respond to an article I have written on the Labour Party in the first issue of Leftline, the ISN discussion newsletter, which I will send by email (ISN website coming soon!).

by LPwatch Tue Nov 23, 2004 17:15

" would welcome a discussion with socialists in LY about this question"

Where are these magical socilaists in the Labour Party?

Although we would all like to see one unfortunately there is no organised left in the LP/LY .

Labour have utterly sold out and have now fundamentally shifted to just be another establishment party. the most left people in the LP are not opposed to partnership, coalition with FG, market economy, capitalist EU etc.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN personal capacity Tue Nov 23, 2004 18:06

As a rule I dont debate with anonymous contributors but since LPwatch has raised serious points in a non abusive manner I will respond, though it would be much better if he/she would identify themselves and their organisation.

On two points you make, I am in full agreement:

That Labour as a party has sold out completely: I hardly need telling since I was one of a handful of members of DL who fought against the Rabitte/De Rossa leadership as they veered rightwards and joined coalition (at which point I departed) and later Labour. So I hardly think the Labour Party is in any way reformable. The point is though that other genuine socialists may think otherwise, even if you and I regard that as a total waste of time.

You are also correct when you say there is no organised left in LP/LY. At most there are individuals such as Micheal D. Higgins etc. who articulate vaguely left reformist views.
However, the lack of an organised left does not mean that there are no individual socialist in LP/LY. These people are worth having a dialogue with, if we are serious about our own politics. I, for one, believe it is worth trying to convince such people to break with Labour, though I dont believe we will make much progress on this until the emegence of a new party of the working class to the left of Labour.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying this should be the main priority of radical socialists but when we get the oppurtunity we should attempt to win people over to our viewpoint.

(These are my own personal opinions on the issue, others in the ISN would probably have a different view)

by hs - sp Tue Nov 23, 2004 23:45

I would be very very suprised if there was no socialists in labour youth, i am sure there are. Especially in areas where there is no other left, or a small left. And the fact that labour youth has made this small step says something. I would agree with colm that socialists should try and engage with members of labour youth and debate them and work with them. Remember what became the socialist party came out of the then labour youth. Labour have been out of power a while their younger members may take another view if labour goes into a right wing government.

by Max Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:02

The Militant Tendancy were unceremoniously ousted from LY long before they were expelled from Labour. They were out-organised and then outvoted at a wonderful youth conference in Liberty Hall back in 1987. Since then they have wandered in the Trotskyite Wilderness, selling papers, spouting rubbish, and doing whatever comrade Higgins tells them to do.

Obviously they would prefer to be pure and powerless rather than taking part in real decision making leading to better living and working conditions for working people.

So keep it up comrades, and keep those paper sales going, meanwhile the Labour Party will get on with delivering real change for real people.

by Rosa Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:40

Would Max care to tell us anything about the present role of those principled socialists who ousted the Millies from LY in 1987? Let me help him: most have long forgotten about about Gramsci and are helping themselves to real profits right now: anyone remember Fat Montague, the then LY supremo, now head of PR firm?

So Max spare us your 'real people, real change' bullshit. Sure change doesnt come from the boring columns of a Trot newspaper but it dont come from the careerist jaw jaw of some wannabe Labour cllr. or TD either. It comes from people organising from below to bring about change themselves.

Now, let me see....real change....tax amnesties, water charges, Ruari Quinn as right wing Finance Minister, Dick Springs directorships, nepotism of ministers (Niamhs daughter, Emmets cousin), links with pro War Blair, bin tax, etc etc etc.

'Said Joe what they forgot to kill, goes on to organise, goes on to organise'

by Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:43

"meanwhile the Labour Party will get on with delivering real change for real people"

Like all the "real people" who benefited from the tax amnesty, perhaps?

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:47

Where is the Millie leadership of 1987? Why did Bill Webster, Finn Geaney, Anton McCabe, John Throne etec etc leave?

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:30

Who gives a flying f**k where the Millie leadership of 1987, in fact I couldn't give a flying whatsit where the current leadership is or does BUT more importantly where will the Labour Party be when it comes to the Dublin City Budget and Estimates?
Standing with the real people or cosying up to the parties of big business to face down 'real people' would be my guess.

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:34

That should read that - I imagine the Labour Party with one eye on the next election will in the name of 'social responsibilty' face down the people it was set up to defend.

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:36

Ooops! I forgot the SP are rather thin on the ground in the Dublin City Council area. Whatever you do, dont mention Joan Collins or Dermot Connolly.

by Rosa Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:51

Good point Real Cynic, so let me enlighten you: I dont know about Finn Geany but the three others you mentioned have broken with the control freakery of the CWI but remain active revolutionary socialists.

John Throne is involved in Labour Militant Voice in the USA, Bill Webster is active on the left in Canada as far as I know, while Anton Mc Cabe is still a member (if out of favour with what passes for a leadership) of the SP. Point being they have abadoned the distorted politics of the Millies but remained true to socialist principles. For your information there is a healthy, vibrant world on the left in between the cynics of blairism and the little stalins of trot world.

Now could the aptly named Real Cynic tell me about the heroes of Labour Left? By the way what happened to that organisation? Have they left Labour or have they just ceased being left? And for your bed time reading I recommend Reform or Revolution by the other Rosa (Luxembourg that is). Dont worry Ive prescribed Luxembourg on the Russian Revolution to Leons fans. So you'll all wake up in the morning with a whole world to win!

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:51

Real Cynic can't get over the sectarianism that blinds them to real questions and issues. I'm not a member of the SP. Couldn't a damn about the CWI and all who sail in her. Real Cynic in their sectarianism conflates working class resistance with the SP. What a sad world to inhabit.
Are you really that oblivious to the real world?
Where do you stand on the FACT that Labour Party councillors will find a way to implement this stealth tax on those who can least afford - the working class people of Dublin?

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:53

How long is your nose? You post in the exact same style as the SP, demanding a list of answers. Go away, you're not fooling anyone.

by Curious Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:58

Anton must be really out of favour with the SP Troika! Didnt he stand as an LP candidate in the Local Elections!

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 13:58

Perhaps in the Labour Party you are not used to people asking questions.

You've confirmed one thing for me democracy in the Labour Party must be as bad as that in the CWI. You've both mastered ways of avoiding questions REAL people want to know the answers to.
My bet is that you don't know how to answer the question that it is a FACT that the LP will sell out those it was set up to represent.

by Labour watch Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:02

It is quite obvious what is happening here. Labout trolls are tyring to throw mud at the SP in an attempt to deflect away from a discussion about the existance of a left in the labour party.

Why are certain labour members not willing to discuss this issue?

by Curiouser Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:04

Might that not be a different Anton McCabe?

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:06

Do the SP think they score points by DEMANDING answers to questions?

by Labour watch Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:08

I find it ironic that LY trolls on this site are coming on saying how great it was to expel socialists in the Labour Party such as Finn Geaney, Anton McCabe, Dermot Connolly back in the 80s but that now these people are heros that have stuck to their principles!

Stop deflecting attention away from a discussion on the nature of the magical left of LY.

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:09

Why dont you tell us why Throne, Geany, Collins, Connolly, Smyth, Prendeville, Tourish, Kenna etc etc actually left the SP?

Some funny attitudes displayed by other posters - its ok to attack Labour but if you criticise the SP you are sectarian!

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:10

Nobody demanding anything but a bit of honesty really.
I'm not a member of the SP and I'm guessing Rosa isn't either but your blinkered vision is stopping you answer REAL questions. Not much point in continuing to feed a troll.

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:12

"I find it ironic that LY trolls on this site are coming on saying how great it was to expel socialists in the Labour Party such as Finn Geaney, Anton McCabe, Dermot Connolly back in the 80s but that now these people are heros that have stuck to their principles!"

Who said it was a good idea to expell them from Labour? I didnt! You seem to think it was a good idea to force them out of the CWI. Are you incapable of telling the truth?

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:14

Look you are carrying on in the exact same manner as the SP usually do. I reckon you are 2 pinochio nosed evil twins from UCD.

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:23

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I made one guess - the Labour Party will in the name of social responsibilty face down the people it was set up to represent.
No attacks.
Somehow I doubt that the 'evil twins' or any member of the SP would admit that democracy in their organisation is crap.
The problem with you and most of the Labour Party is that when somebody questions you from the Left - you automatically reach for the 'they are only trots' defence. Same thing happens in the Trade Union movement.

Once more - how do you feel about the FACT that the Labour Party will implement the bin tax on working class Dubliners? And one of Rosa's - is there a Labour Left anymore?

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:26

"Somehow I doubt that the 'evil twins' or any member of the SP would admit that democracy in their organisation is crap"

Of course they would, as misdirection.

by Libby Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:41

You've watched Swordfish or read Ray Kavanagh's book once too often.

I don't believe there is any way I can convince you that I am not a CWI member and for that reason you will fail to answer a pefectly legitimate question from somebody who is involved in a campaign with very little SP input, namely the bin charges campaign in Dublin City.

by Real Cynic Wed Nov 24, 2004 14:44

Maybe you're not SP. I think Labour should vote against the estimates. AFAIAA the Labour Group on DCC havent finalised their position as yet. There are the arguments that if estimates voted down - brinkmanship, council will be abolished etc.

by Rosa Wed Nov 24, 2004 19:16

Real Cynic, you are so blinded by your hatred of the Trot gnat that you fail to see the Blairite elephant in the corner. Stop arguing with imaginary Trots! Even the most uninformed observer would see from my previous postings that I am not a trotskyist.

So to answer your question, as I have already said Throne, Geany, Connolly etc etc etc left the Millies because there is no democracy in that organisation and once a leading member dissents they are doomed....yawn....we all know this except naive SP recruits hanging onto the latest word from on high.

So theres no use throwing anti-trot stuff at me, cos I agree with most of your points: now with that out of the way will you answer this: where is Labour Left today? What happened to all those great Gramscian radicals of the 1980s anti-millie LY? Why are you more interested in slagging the trots than fighting the right wing leadership of the Labour Party?

by Former LY member Wed Nov 24, 2004 19:28

"Before he addressed 100 Labour Youth members"

Smaller attendance than at any time the Militant were in control. Real Progress

by Trotwatch Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:12

This was 100 delegates. Only a self deluded trot would try and score a point on this basis.

by incredulous Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:31

Oh they've done that alright !! The hundreds of thousands of real people who lost their jobs, emigrated or - if lucky enough to have a job - paid 40% PAYE certainly experienced real change when Labour were in power with the blueshirts in the 70s and 80s. What delights await us the next time I wonder?

by Watcher Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:34

"The hundreds of thousands of real people who lost their jobs, emigrated or - if lucky enough to have a job - paid 40% PAYE certainly experienced real change when Labour were in power with the blueshirts in the 70s and 80s."

Those were the days that Militant were in Labour. No matter how reactionary Labour became, the millies preached that there was no salvation outside of the LP.

by Max Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:50

Expulsion of the trots was a great days work for LY and the Labour Party, it meant we could have meetings about real issues and get properly organised without having to listen to pre-prepared speech number 17 on the revolutionary nature of the working class everytime we wanted to make a decision.

Shortly after these gobshites were expelled Labour had excellent results in the council, presidential and ultimately Dail elections. Rather than listening to revolutionary dogma we were able to concentrate on what real people wanted from a serious party of the left.

Most of the leadership of LY in the late 80s and early 90s are still actively involved in the party and in their communities - how many of the young people taken in by the millies at the same time and brainwashed into selling the rag and attending endless meetings are still involved in politics of any kind - not too many!

BTW Ray Kavanaghs book on his time in Head Office shouldn't be taken as gospel, although it does offer a good counterweight to the 'official' version of history penned by Fergus Finlay, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Finally, Pat Montague, having helped to steer the trots out the door went on to establish and excellent PR business for himself and anyone involved with NGOs or community work knows exactly the sort of principled and excellent work he has done for many progressive organisations - but not the trots i'd imagine.

by Real Cynic Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:03

I disagree with you on the expulsions. While the Militant were not called the boring tendency for nothing , I feel the expulsions were unnecessary and wrong. In the LY, the Millies were beaten democratically, it was the millies who supported undemocratic procedures.

Originally, each Constituency Council had 2 delegates to the LY conference, regardless of how many members they had. This enabled the millies to pack conferences when they only represented a minority of the LY membership. The millies fought tooth and nail against any change that would allow representation at the LY conference based on the actual number of LY members in a constituency. They never gave any reason, it jusyt meant that they lost control.

There was cheering at the LY conference where the change scraped through to allow representation based on actual membership. The next year the millies lost control of LY. They were beaten democratically.

by Real Cynic Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:05

I might be more inclined to debate with you if I knew where you were coming from. I have made my position clear. We still dont know what your politics are.

by Rosa Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:23

Come on RC do I have to spell it out? Isn't obvious from my postings that I am neither a Trotskyist nor a Social democrat. Well I will spell it out, I am an independent activist who is not a member of any organisation though I have time for the more democratic/libertarian groups on the left such as the Workers Solidarity Organisation, Red Banner, Irish Socialist Network, Dublin Grassroots Network, etc etc.

Now how about answering the tough questions I posed?

As for Max (Is that Mad or Weber?)... so Fats Montague does all this PR for the poor and needy for free? yeah right!

by Max Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:27

Congrats RC, your memory of the detail is better than mine. The new LY leadership went on to oppose the subsequent expulsions both at AC and at Conference arguing that what LY had done the Party could do. At the time I agreed with this line but obviously the 'older' party had had a bellyfull of the trots at that stage and decided it was time to drop the hammer.

Looking back i believe the right decision was made as the party went on to concentrate on real politics rather than sitting through more shite at every branch and constituency meeting where the trots were organised.

The trots could indeed bore for ireland, but shafting the bastards was great crack.

by Real Cynic Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:41

I dont see your questions as being tough. Some of the Left LY leadership of the time have dropped out or are in Civil Service jobs which prevent open party political activism. Some are just ordinary LP members. I dont want to name names, only one is really on the right of the party, the present iNternational Secretary.

I think you will find that a lot of the independent activists of the 80s have either mellowed or are no longer around. I believe that the WSM who recently celebrated their 20th Birthday, have only one of the original members left.

People change, they move on.

As you must be aware, LY members are active in some of the campaign & groups you mentioned.

by Max Thu Nov 25, 2004 13:00

The International Secretary is on the Right of the party, jeezuz, are you mad or what?
Can you give us any evidence of this?
My understanding was that the IS was one of the few party officers without his tongue stuck in the party leaders arse.
The party leader who sees our future as the stabiliser for a resurgent FG.

by Real Cynic Thu Nov 25, 2004 13:04

Actually on International issues hes ok. Its his attitude to the Anti Bin Tax Campaign that I am mostly on about. He set up what literally amounted to a Pro Bin Tax Group in his local area.

by Max Thu Nov 25, 2004 13:22

Not being opposed to bin charges is not the same thing as being right wing.
As i dont live in Dublin its not an issue that i have been involved in, our local council run a 'bin label' system where you have to buy a bin label and put it on the bin when you want it collected. Personally this has meant me starting to recycle so that i only put the bin out about once every three weeks rather than once a week. I didnt go out and protest at the introduction of this system - does that make me a right winger? In fact, the bin charges have forced me and a lot of other people to think a bit more about waste, packaging and the environment - so maybe they aren't such a bad thing after all. Does this make me a complete heretic?

Thanks for clearing up your labeling of the IS as right wing, for a minute there I thought there might be some basis to it. Hopefully the IS will be joined by other likeminded people at the top of the party at the next conference and they can take a more intelligent approach to the whole area of coalition rather than this ridiculous Mullingar Accord.

by Real Cynic Thu Nov 25, 2004 13:48

The Bin Tax has got nothing to do with recycling or saving the environment. Its just another not so stealthy tax on ordinary people. Maybe I am being too harsh on the IS but his actions during the battles last year when people were being jailed were, IMHO, contemptible.

by Libby Thu Nov 25, 2004 13:52

Just in case any SPIers are looking into this Labour Love in - is there any chance you can update your website. It says the following:

The Socialist Party responds to its critics
Lessons of the Bin Tax Battle
--------------------------------------------------------------
By Kevin McLoughlin
A 4,000 word article entitled Lessons of the Bin Tax Campaign - The Socialist Party responds to its critics is published in the Winter edition of Socialist View.

For reasons of space we were unable to publish the full article, however a 9,000 word version of this article will appear on our website in the week beginning 15th Nov.

--------------------------------------------------------------

It's ten days past the 15th - still waiting.

by Rosa Thu Nov 25, 2004 15:12

Noske, sorry I mean Max, you have revealed yourself as a complete Muppet. Why would I be bitter when I am not a trot, never was and never will be. Nor was I ever in the Labour Party. I won't waste my energy on your right wing Labour, trot obbsessed ramblings anymore...end of conversation.

Real Cynic, of course some people move on, get a life, grow up etc and thats fine by me. What I have is people who sell out, especially those like the 87 LY generation who dressed up as gramscian marxists, just like their 'soft left' contemporary in the British Labour Party. Both groups are distinguished by their transformation to blairite neo-liberals today. Can you name any of that generation who is on the left in Labour ie have opposed Rabbittes blairism openly?

by Real Cynic Thu Nov 25, 2004 15:33

It seems that you are just a crank after all. Even if you are not a trot you carry on in the exact same manner, demanding that people account for themselves. It is obvious that you have no wish to engage constructively with anyone in the LP.

Your manner of carrying on is not common among the WSM, ISM or most GGN activists. They welcome people who are prepared to join with them in struggle while at the same time making clear their strong criticisms of the LP in a constructive manner. Not in a manner of purism that will drive people away.

You really would be more at home in a trot group. Farewell, I am not going to waste anymore time on a neurotic such as you.

by Rosa Thu Nov 25, 2004 21:43

Classic stalinist stuff from Real Cynic: label your opponent as a mentally ill 'neurotic' 'crank'. You should go far in a party now ruled by the former stickie stalinists. Ah well off you go to play Ebert to Max's Noske.

'Stand up and fight and fight, we have a score to settle,
Stand up and fight and fight, we have a war to wage,
For Karl Leibnicht, we have a score to settle,
For Rosa Luxembourg, this will be our pledge'

by john Thu Nov 25, 2004 23:07

the only actual sp member who wrote anything defended labour youth! And labour youth people attacks someone who isn't even in the socialist party for asking a question. why do you hate the trots so much?

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:14

You are acting in an extremely disturbed manner. You seem to be incapable of taking part in rational debate. Dealing with you is like talking to a website. You asked as to where the LY leadership was now; I answered you. If you think some other members of the LY of that period are now right wingers then all you have to do is name them.

I dont know what you think you are acheiving. You are carrying on more like a Leninist/trot than a Council Communist or Luxemburgite. Do you really think you will interest any LY/LP members in engaging with you? I reckon you have no interest in doing so.

John, Rosa may not be a Trot but her style is similar. I do however believe that Labour Watcher is likely an SPer.

HS is a genuine person, he is always prepared to engage in honest debate. This however is not generally true of the SP.

by Libby Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:32

"Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it in for me ..."
What a muppet you are. Worse than any of the spuppies. There's not even that many trots about and the way you go on, you would swear they were everywhere. It's obvious that Rosa isn't one. But any criticism from the left shows you up. Let's face it with the likes of Dermot Lacey and Oisin Quinn - it wouldn't be too hard to be to the left of Labour on the City council
Toddle off and work up on your Fine Gael phrase book and your excuses for selling out working class people in the name of 'social responsibility'.

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:38

Its obvious that you are also a crank who is not interested in serious debate. I dont believe that either you or Rosa are real indepent activists. My own experience of working with GG, WSM etc is totally different to the bile emanating from you. You have no desire to engage constructively with anyone in Labour.

Lacey was never part of the Left LY hes always a creature of the right, I dont answer for him. As for Oisin, are you visiting the sins of Ruari on him?

by Max Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:52

'Ah well off you go to play Ebert to Max's Noske.'

Rosa, I've been involved in politics now for about 18 years, always in the Labour Party and always on the Left. And I am not alone.

But in all my time i have never come across either Ebert or Noske - am I missing out on somthing? Who are these people?

I presume you feel that these guys are important in some way or have some similarity to myself and RC ( whose identity I have not yet figured out but the shortlist is interesting), but to be honest i dont get the reference.

I presume this makes me a total muppet altogether

by Libby Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:55

"Its obvious that you are also a crank who is not interested in serious debate."

I've got to hand it to you Libby - you are some piece of work. You accuse me of being a crank and not being interested in serious debate. Now let's recap your first three contributions to this thread.

*************************************************
Where Are The Millies Now?
by Real Cynic Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 11:47am `
Where is the Millie leadership of 1987? Why did Bill Webster, Finn Geaney, Anton McCabe, John Throne etec etc leave?

How Will The SP Vote On the Estimates?
by Real Cynic Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 12:36pm
Ooops! I forgot the SP are rather thin on the ground in the Dublin City Council area. Whatever you do, dont mention Joan Collins or Dermot Connolly.

Libby
by Real Cynic Wednesday, Nov 24 2004, 12:53pm
How long is your nose? You post in the exact same style as the SP, demanding a list of answers. Go away, you're not fooling anyone.
*************************************************

Some serious debate there - eh? Now if you would like to explain to me in simple terms your rules of engagement - I'm all ears but less of the insults especially when you don't even play by the rules you set for others.

by Libby Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:56

That should read - Real Critic you are some piece of work. (Of course)

by Me Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:04

"As for Oisin, are you visiting the sins of Ruari on him?"

The sins of Lochlann more like.

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:10

"the most left people in the LP are not opposed to partnership, coalition with FG, market economy, capitalist EU etc."

" anyone remember Fat Montague, the then LY supremo, now head of PR firm?"

" Where do you stand on the FACT that Labour Party councillors will find a way to implement this stealth tax on those who can least afford - the working class people of Dublin?"

This is why I respond in the way that I do. How can I engage in serious debate with people who have already written off all of the left in the LP? You have alreadt made up your mind about what the LP will do. Nothing that I can say will change your mind.

I have made my position on the Bin Tax clear. I have answered Rosas questions about where the old LY are now.

There is no point in me wasting my time discussing this further with you. You are only interested in scoring points. In the real world, I work with independent activists who do not carry on in your sectarian manner.

by Libby Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:19

I only raised the third point there (something which you don't deny). As to you only working with independent activists, somehow I doubt it, I don't know of one member of the Dublin City Anti Bin Tax Campaign who is aware of any member of the Labour Party being involved in it.
I do agree with you though on the futility of engaging in further debate with you. When I did try to raise something with you - you immediately accused me of being a trot. Your first contributions here were point scoring exercises. At least attempt to play by your own rules.

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:47

I dont believe that you are an independent activist, If you were involved in the Anti Bin Tax Campaign then you would be aware that LP members are involved. Surely you aware that LP member Mick O'Reilly chaired an Anti Bin Tax Conference? No one heckled him or raised the non involvement of LP members in the campaign.

Indeed when a crank tryed to attack SF, asking if SF would now be really invoved in the campaign, Mick ruled the comment out of order. No one at the conference challenged his ruling.

If Libby was interested in building any sort of a fightback then he would be orepared to engage seriously with LP members you are on the left.

by Libby Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:23

"I dont believe that you are an independent activist, If you were involved in the Anti Bin Tax Campaign then you would be aware that LP members are involved. Surely you aware that LP member Mick O'Reilly chaired an Anti Bin Tax Conference? No one heckled him or raised the non involvement of LP members in the campaign."

Let's be clear about this - Mick O'Reilly chaired this meeting in a personal capacity. Mick does this quite a bit actually, much to the annoyance of the 'Labour Movement'. Mick's credentials are beyond reproach. In the full report of the conference (link attached) there is no mention of any other Labour member being there. I know for a fact there are no members of the Labour Party in any of the Northside campaigns, the Liberties campaign or the Crumlin campaign. The fact that nobody raised the non-involvement of LP members in the campaign I think has more to do with it being an accepted fact.

"Indeed when a crank tryed to attack SF, asking if SF would now be really invoved in the campaign, Mick ruled the comment out of order. No one at the conference challenged his ruling. "

Not sure what this has to do with anything.

"If Libby was interested in building any sort of a fightback then he would be orepared to engage seriously with LP members you are on the left."

Libby is very interested in building up for a fightback. I have worked with LP members (but they've been working in a personal capacity) in the past and will continue to do so, whether it's through anti-war work, anti-racist work, etc.
But where are these LP members on the left? How do they intend to engage with other lefts? Are they organising themselves for a fightback and if so wtf are they doing in the Labour Party (Seriously I would like an insight into this)? FWIW I see the LPY stand as a small positive step and one to be encouraged. I doubt that any of the youth groups in the Leninist groups could do anything like this but it's still a long way from being anything meaningful. I fear that LPY give Rabbitte and his sticky chums the veneer of democracy.

by Non payer Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:33

Labour are not involved in the ABTC whatsoever. I would invite you to please name some names of Labour members who are involved. The only 'member' who has done anything was Mick O'Reilly (who did minimal work).

The only involvment of the LP has been to sabotage the campaign. In the latest copy of the 'Lifetimes' local newspaper there is a front page article about bin tax non payment in the article the Labour Party Chathairlach in DLR county council Niamh Bhreathnach calls for people to pay-up or face non collection! She also states that the tax is fair and just! This is the real face of the so-called Labour Party

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:42

Fact: Mick is a member of the LP. No matter how you squirm you cant get away from that.

The SF reference was an example of sectarianism that was stamped on by Mick. If anyone had attacked LP members active in the campaign, they would have got the same treatment.

But thats what puzzles me: why are you attacking LP members who are against the bin tax? Do you wish to alienate them and turn them into supporters of this regressive tax?

You do not know every member of every local anti bin tax group on the North side. Now that is a fact.

Yes, in many of the campaigns LP members are involved as individuals. Whats the problem with that? Do you think they should all be following some Leninist 5 year plan in every aspect of their political life? Do you think you have a monopoly on what is Left?

What exactly do you think are you acheiving from this? Do you think that you are impressing the LP members you claim to work with in campaigns?

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:44

Is enough. I'm bringing this crap to the attention of Mick O'Reilly. You people have no interest in LP members being involved in the campaign. What is your real agenda?

by non payer Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:48

'Real Cynic' can you please just name 1 member of the LP other then MO'R that is active in organising the campaign in his/her area? and also could you please tell us what you were doing last year at the height of non-collection? What depots did you block? where did you stop the trucks?

by Libby Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:52

"Is enough. I'm bringing this crap to the attention of Mick O'Reilly. You people have no interest in LP members being involved in the campaign. What is your real agenda?"

Omigod. You do that. I'm sure knowing Mick he'll enjoy a laugh and send you on your way.
Your right that's definetely enough. Talk to you after the estimates sell out.

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 13:52

Nope. You get no names from me. When Rosa, Libby and yourself use your real names I'll use mine.

I am curious as to your agenda: why are yopu so angrt at the idea of LP members opposing the bin tax? Whose interests are you really serving. If I was a real cynic then I might think that Council employees and FF activists are loose on Indymedia trying to cause division.

by non payer Fri Nov 26, 2004 14:06

The real reason that you wont give names is because you cant. No member of the Labour Party is active in the ABTC. As for this crap about not wanting to give names over to FF and the state, this is rubbish as the organisers' names and phone numbers are on hundreds and thousends of leaflets regularly distributed around the city.

Why don't you tell me where you blocked trucks and where you blockaded depots? the state cant repress you a year after the event!

I have no agenda. I would love if the Lp were active in opposing the bin tax but they are not and I will not let lies go unchallenged. the fact is the opposite, the LP have consistantly sabotaged the campaign. During non-collection last year they opposed the blockades while activists were getting battoned off their own streets. LP members in SIPTU worked with managment of the councils to stop bin men taking industrial action. The LP in the city council last year used the mayors position to force through bin tax and will do it again this year. Already in Dun Laoghaire the LP leader and cathaoirleach has come out telling people to pay 'or face non-collection' and that the tax is 'fair and just'. This is the real face of the 'Labour' Party, not the one that you present.

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 14:09

I'm fed up with you lot. Zilch! Zero! You get no answers from me because I reckon you are a pack of cranks!

by non payer Fri Nov 26, 2004 15:55

We are getting no answers because you are unable to answer them. What blockades were you at? Name one LP bin tax organiser?

by Real Cynic Fri Nov 26, 2004 16:22

Maybe you are just an SP crank. You'll get no answers from me. Your stupid attempts to suggest that I was the Sparty on another Shannon related thread has backfired on you. You are so desperate there that you have to raise the Sparts lack of involvement in the bin tax fight. (Beats me as to what thats got to do with Shannon or Mary Kelly.)

Seeing as you are so anxious to ask questions maybe you could answer a few. Why are the SP so thin on the ground in the Dublin City campaign? Why did you deselect Joan Collins as an SP candidate?

by Trotwatch Fri Nov 26, 2004 16:47

nonpayer is a SP troll ok. Hes trying to bring the Shannon thread off topic by claiming the sparties opposed DA during the Bintax campaign.

You can read it here
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67627&condense_comments=false#comment93671

by Troll Fri Nov 26, 2004 16:59

Why are the Labour Party so thin on the ground in the WHOLE of the ABTC? Why was Joe Higgins deselected as a LP candidate?

by Trotwatch Fri Nov 26, 2004 17:08

Neither Sparts nor SP Nor SWP but International Trotwatching!

Higgins was thrown out of Labour because he was a member of a party within the Labour Party. The Millies were dishonest - they never argued for the right to form a faction. They claimed they were just supporters of the paper Militant - that they had no actual members.

by Fred Fri Nov 26, 2004 19:16

Despite the sectarian mudslinging, it is true to say that no Labour Party member has played any significant role on the ground in the ABT campaign. Mick O Reilly has leant his name to the campaign and spoken on public platforms, and fair dues to him. Its just a fact and should be acknowledged as a weakness by left members of the LP. Admit it and point out that LP members are involved in the other campaigns like anti-war etc and in some cases are the majority (right to choose etc)

Heres my informed estimate of active involvement in the various local campaigns by political activists (I am active in the campaign and I honestly know no LP members who are involved anywhere in Dublin). I exclude independent, non party members who probably make up a majority overall, from the list.

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown: SWP/SP
South Dublin: SP/CWAG
Fingal: SP/ Communities United
Crumlin/Walkinstown:CWAG/WP
Ballyfermot:SWP
Ringsend:SWP
Liberties:SP
East Wall:WCA
Stoneybatter:WSM
Cabra:WCA
Finglas:SF/ISN/SP
Raheny:SP/WCA
Coolock:SWP

Some of these campaigns are fairly inactive, especially those involving the SWP, except Ballyfermot and Dun Laoghaire. The Stoneybatter, Coolock, Raheny campaigns are limited in scope. The most active campaigns with a real mass folllowing are Crumlin(CWAG is the ind. left group formed by Cllr. Joan Collins), Ballyfermot, Finglas and Cabra. The campaigns in South Dublin and Fingal seem to be fairly dormant at the moment.

The 22 people imprisoned last year for defying court injunctions included 1 SWP member, 2 ISN members, 1SF member, 6/7 SP members and the rest were non party.

by Interested Sat Nov 27, 2004 19:04

How dare you suggest that its just the far left groups you name who are involved. How about all the independents? You also areb leaving out large parts of the North Inner City ...... Ballybough/Clonlife Group, Summerhill/ Sean MacDermot At Group.

WCA members have played a big role in the campaign, but they are in a small minority in the total membership of groups in Cabra and in the North Inner City.

by Fred Sat Nov 27, 2004 21:13

You just didnt read the piece did you Interested? So Ill quote what I put at the top of the list: ' I exclude independent, non party members who probably make up a majority overall, from the list'.

So I clearly acknowledged that independents played a major role, all I did was list which groups were involved and where, with the object of showing that Labour activists just were'nt involved. For god sakes Interested read the bloody contributions before you blow a gasket.

by Pat C Mon Nov 29, 2004 14:32

Actually Labour Party members were involved in the campaign in the North Inner City. Certainly at least 2 in my local anti bin tax, the Ballybough aginst the Bin Tax. Alec R of WCA just confirmed to me that these people were LP members. I believe others were also involved elsewhere in NIC.

I am not aware of any SP members being active in the campaign in the NIC , presumably because they have no members there (since MG left the SP). This might explain why they are unaware of LP activity.

These ordinary LPers would be unlikely to attend the "conferences", but they have been out taking direct action. I'm not giving their names here and its totally irrelevant to me and the Ballybough ATBT as to whether anonymous "activists" on indymedia believe this.

As for the comments about WCA I am a bit puzzled. WCA never claimed to have huge numbers. In Ballybough/ClonliffeATBT there are 2 WCA members who more than carry their weight but they have never claimed its a WCA campaign.

Get to the City Hall Tonight!

Anti Bin Tax Protest at 6.30 pm!

by clarify Mon Nov 29, 2004 15:33

"I am not aware of any SP members being active in the campaign in the NIC "

Are you trying to claim that the SP are not involved in the anti bin tax campaign to the best of their ability?

by pat c Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:30

Read what I actually wrote. I am not aware of any sp members active in ABTC in the NIC. I presume that this is because they have no members in the area. (Or they might be active in other area campaigns) I never suggested that the SP were inactive in any of the area campaigns.

I only mentioned this as a reason as to why the sp might be unaware of (rank&file) lp involvement in the ABTC in the NIC.

by Dial a Cliche Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:49

Two swallows doesn't make a summer.

by pat c Mon Nov 29, 2004 16:52

I am just correcting misinformation on this thread. I wonder how many of the anonymous trolls here ever get off their PCs and actually do anything.

by ABTC Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:13

I'm sure if you looked very hard you will find a couple of FF or FG members that went to bin tax meetings and the odd demo. Doesn't mean these parties are involved in the ABTC. The fact is that there may be at most literally less then a dozen LP members that did anything anti bin tax related and no member of the LP is involved as an organiser.

by anonymous Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:20

Maybe that's why the bin tax campaign is lost. Just joking we all know that it's lost because of SP/SWP involvement, and not just because labour are a bunch of lazy, incompetent sh$ts

by pat c Mon Nov 29, 2004 18:21

First you lot were claiming that no lpers were involved. When Mick O'Reilly was mentioned, he was the only lper involved. Now that it has been shown that other lpers are involved you have to put a new spin on it.

Look, ordinary LP members are involved in the campaign, live with it, dont let it keep you awake at night. Why is it such a big issue with you, do you want to drive them out of the campaign?No one has claimed anything other than that those lpers are involved as individuals. I have a lot of differences with these people but they are genuine rank and file working class activists. I doubt if that is true of so many of the anonymous lp critics here.