A Riddle: Is An Opposition Really An Opposition If It Conspires With Govt. To Cancel an Election?

by abolitionist Mon Sep 27, 2004 19:30

I wonder at the wisdom of electing as first citizen of ireland, someone with a surname which appears on U.S. Homeland Security lists.
Dana on the other hand is the fourth most popular song contest search term, and is the name of several US based corporative holdings.

MARY is the traditional name of the Queen of Ireland, Blessed Virgin, Our lady of the Sea, Our lady of Succour, Our lady of ladies, Our lady mother of God (the real one) and presidents of Eirinn.

by nae boder hi Mon Sep 27, 2004 20:12

Is it any wonder that none of the parties could care less about running a candidate when the presidency weilds no real power? They can be kicked out by the dail. Its purely a symbolic role.

by R. Isible Mon Sep 27, 2004 20:25

Only tangentially related to the story, but the word is that Trevor Sargent is negotiating with FG for an electoral pact. Goodbye Green Party.

by stillsuckinpoolfeed Mon Sep 27, 2004 22:18

He is too young anyway. So why this line of crap from RTE Press Office?

by poolfeedupchuck Mon Sep 27, 2004 22:52

from unison

Plans by Dana Rosemary Scallon to contest the Presidential Election have received a slight boost this evening.

Galway City Council has voted to endorse the former MEP's candidacy thanks to the support of three Fine Gael councillors.

She has failed to win the backing of four county councils - Limerick, Galway, Kildare and Donegal.

She now needs the backing of just three local authorities to enter the race.

by Michael Hennigan Mon Sep 27, 2004 23:43

I do agree that Dana has been getting disproportionate attention compared with Vincent. She had for example significant coverage on 5/7 Live on Radio 1 this evening. I'm sure there is the element of trying to provide balance to a conservative Catholic voice.

It's also one of these Catch 22 situations where an individual is viewed by the media as an unknown but it appears that one way to switch on the media is to engineer some publicity stunt.

Remember Royston Brady? Although he blew things eventually, the media was very oblidging for a time.

While time and space is always a constraint, it is interesting as to why say a story like Darfur should be totally crowded out by Iraq.

by dregsofpoolfeed Mon Sep 27, 2004 23:47

An oot**hian smuggled a question onto VB radio show! Greens are not supporting Vincent Salafia en bloc because 'he is not a high enough profile candidate' to have a chance at this stage. Had the greenies given him a nomination when they pulled out and he put his hat in the ring he'd be better known than eamonn ryan by now i'd wager. My friend just rang and said that institutions in ireland are run by the kind of people who want to get into the social pages and that you should be . .

by Vincent Salafia - Save Tara Skryne Valley Group Tue Sep 28, 2004 02:00 salafiam at tcd dot ie PO Box 30 tara, Co. Meath 087-132-3365

“The challenge for Labour is to encourage those who think Labour to vote Labour” Pat Rabbitte, Leader”

The following is found in the Party Affairs section of the Labour Web site. Meanwhile, Pat hugs Enda, as Enda cuddles Bertie and Mary, with the Trevor watching hopefully. A new soap opera? No. Our leaders latest experiment in democracy...as the nation eats itself alive, hungering for something it can be proud of.

http://www.labour.ie

Party Principles

The four principles on which Socialism is based are Freedom, Equality, Community and Democracy.
From its first election programme in 1920 to the present day, these principles have been at the centre of the policies which the Labour Party has offered to the Irish people. These are the values which have ruled our major campaigns and our political activity whether in opposition or in Government.
The Labour Party is committed to representing the ideals of our movement in Government and ultimately we aim to be the majority party in Dail Eireann.

Freedom
Freedom is a fundamental human right. No society is free unless the men and women who make up that society are free individuals. Poverty, homelessness, unemployment and ignorance are the enemies of freedom. Labour extends the same freedom to all members of society and opposes the victimisation of individuals on the basis of class, colour, creed, religion, sex, sexual orientation, race or ethnic origin.

Equality
Equality implies reorganising society with the specific object of creating a more equal distribution of wealth and power, and not just opportunities for individuals to become powerful or wealthy. The Labour Party sees equality not only in economic terms but also in terms of social political and economic rights. It is necessary for the individual to enjoy these rights under the law if there is to be full and true equality.

Community
Socialism realises that men and women by necessity and by choice live in co-operation with each other. In the community or the workplace, the trade union or the social club there is a common sense of belonging and of purpose. The spirit of Community places Labour on the side of the oppressed, not only in Ireland but also in all countries of the world and in particular in the Third World.

Democracy
Democracy is fundamental to the concept of giving power to people to shape their own lives. This empowering of people should cover all aspects of life, including culture, politics, justice and the workplace.

by Sean Crudden Tue Sep 28, 2004 08:36 087 9739945

I heard the moniker Bertie's Mary before - in fact I think I know who first coined the name - but it was Mary Harney that was meant. I would prefer to understand the "name" the way I always understood it.

Please call Mary McAleese something else (and I am not particular what you call her).

by Advisor Tue Sep 28, 2004 15:58

Vincent, a little bit of advice, if you want to be considered a 'genuine candidate' by Labour, Greens etc you will not do it by posting rubbish or come to think of it even contributing to this site.

by Justin Moran Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:23

Dana gets coverage because she is a national figure. Vincent doesn't get coverage of a similar quantity because he's not. Dana is a former MEP and a few months ago polled 57,000 votes in the Euro Elections. And in 1997 she polled 14% nationally or 175,458 votes.

In short, she has a not insignificant level of political support and a public recognition factor. Vincent is relatively unknown, no political support, no experience as an elected representative and to the vast majority of Councils in the country no doubt completely unknown.

It would be madness for two people looking for Council nominations, one (Dana) a credible contender and another (Vincent) not, to receive the same amount of attention. There has been too much of a focus on what is an eye-wateringly irrelevant political issue. The Presidency for fuck's sake. If you've nothing better to be working on or campaigning on then you've too much time on your hands.

This is irrelevant to politics btw. From all I've read about him Vincent would be far more preferable as a candidate than Dana and is a decent, genuine political activist and campaigner. Doesn't mean he has some sort of right to coverage.

The various people, some of whom are clearly on nothing more than ego trips or publicity seekers, looking for nominations are whining, there is no other word for it, about parties blocking their candidacy.

Simple lesson. People have the right to request to be nominated. Councillors have the right to refuse their requests. No-one has an automatic right to be a candidate and to think otherwise is nothing more than insufferable arrogance.

Why people think that councillors or other parties have an obligation to nominate people with whom they might disagree, perhaps vehemently disagree, is mystifying.

by salafista Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:38

it is not just about the right to coverage, but how cozy all the parties are with each other and then also with RTÉ.

when labour and the greenies couldnt supply their own candidates, they wouldnt extend a hand to someone else and allow an election to occur.

remember when, before the greenies and labour flopped with their candidates, they all said it would be a travesty if Irish voters were denied the right to vote for a president.

seems that right only applies when their man is standing for election.

by Ray Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:51

Why should they prefer an election where one candidate gets 99% of the vote without leaving her house, to no election at all? Mary Mac is popular, there is no significant group unhappy with the job she's doing, and she's going to be president anyway, right?

Should Salafia be nominated to give him a chance to get press coverage? Well, if you strongly agree with his positions, of course you'd like that to happen. If you don't know what his positions are, because he hasn't drawn up detailed policy, and besides, the president is a figurehead anyway, why would you care whether he gets a chance to go on the telly?

by shakingfrompoolfeedwithdrawal Tue Sep 28, 2004 18:05

he is calling the bluff of labour and the greens and putting it up to them to practice what they have preached wrt to debate and choice in this

if dana gets to run against mcaleese and there is no candidate for people to vote for from the leftish/green side of the spectrum of irish political opinion then these parties will deserve pies more than baldy noonan and bertie ever did

complaining about the coverage is worthwhile because the effect of rte refusing to acknowledge the existence of others seeking nomination is anti-democratic. rte often acts in an anti democratic manner and should be called loudly on it when they do

if citizens don't know independent candidates are looking for nominations they cannot possibly have any chance to influence/talk to their councillors / senators / tds. RTE is letting them all in greens and labour off the hook by allowing them to pretend that it's all out of their hands - to pretend there is nobody to put forward / no-one seeking their support

what sort of a choice is neoliberal right figurehead vs religous right figurehead - this is the choice these parties are potentially reducing the citizens of the country to in a 'democratic' presidential election process

democracy means choice even if that choice is only taken up by a small minority. rte has no right or mandate to conspire with political parties to create the impression that there is no chance of such a choice

my particular bug in the rug is not that RTE have wall to wall covered dana and that they are not giving matching coverage to VS - but that they have made a news/current affairs POLICY of refusing to acknowledge and name others who are seeking support from political parties for a run. this information is in the interests of citizens and they are being manipulated when this information is withheld by RTE for reasons that they cannot give a straightforward easily comprehensible reason for

i have seen VS on the rte news 10 + times without looking for him during the carrickmines castle saga - he has a public profile - a level of support for the campaigns he is involved in and plenty to say - that is obvious. he is not a nutter and citizens deserve to know why he is running so they can make representations to their representatives as to their opionions on them nominating him - rte is overstepping the mark seriously and hindering the workings of democracy when they attemt to ERASE his existence and activities in this regard from the public domain

they are also conscious that this is a little 'dirty' as is shown by their providing false information to people who are asking questions about this and trying to imply that VS is one of a bunch of 'cranks' seeking nominations. ming the merciless was named by their press officers yesterday as someone who is also being ignored by them - trouble is he was never running - he is too young - the other 'ghost' nomination seekers have still not been named by rte to those trying to get to the bottom of this despite numerous requests

and to Justin Moran above who sees all this as a waste of time - i never find it a waste of time personally to look behind the curtain - maybe sinn fein might ask some dail questions about the pool feed issue (at shannon as described above) and rte in the dail - the private company was subcontracted by the department of foreign affairs - more irish people with a lot a lot a lot of support erased from the record by FF/RTE Junta

thru this site stuff like this can be conveyed to a few people - more people should know how the govt tried and succeeded (with the help of a private company as yet unnamed) in censoring anti-war feeling in the country during the bush visit -

or should campaigners forget about that too Justin? It is all the one thing to me - anti-democratic censorship

(we'll be in the long grass with the pies pet/tre/rte btw)

by Vincent Salafia Tue Sep 28, 2004 19:46

The reason I am posting to this site is because it is about the only democratic mechanism left. I must question the advice of somebody who logs in anonynmously with veiled threats because I speak my mind.

Pat Rabbitte called me today and basically told me ther was no chance. He told me that Michael D had changed his mind, and that he had then gotten slack for supporting Eamonn when Eamonn dropped out. I told him he had a duty as a public servant to give support to somebody so there could be an election, and that my situation is different because I am nto a member of a political party and it would cost them nothing. He said the public would react badly and did not care about the 'constitutional niceties' of distinguishing between giving somebody a nomination and backing them in an election. I said the public wanted an election and he was letting them down...that there was still three days to go and it was not too late to take a position.

As for the Greens, it seems they were never serious, because so many people are buying into the fact that Mary is unbeatable. Three weeks of electioneering is a long time, and she has a lot fo explaining to do, if anyone ever gets to ask the right questions.

If my 'advisor' is a member of the Labour Party or the Green Party, as I suspect he or she is, then I think you had your chance to give me advice a long time ago...but the phone never rang. Both these parties have racked up headline after headline about Carrickmines and Tara while the peole on the ground go f all support. It was a flag of convenience for them and they care less about the issues or the people as far as I can see. It would appear all they care about is saying and doing the right thing for the next election. Private party concerns taking precedence over principles and public service.

Go ahead, Mr or Mrs Advisor, prove me wrong...

by Justin Moran Tue Sep 28, 2004 21:15

Considering that Sinn Fein and the broader republican community was ostracised from RTE coverage, that RTE appealed AGAINST an end to censorship and that the organisation contained a secret branch of the Workers Party dedicated to a specific line in the Northern question I think republicans are well aware of the undemocratic and politicised nature of RTE coverage.

This is not to say I don't have a problem with RTE coverage of the Presidential nomination debacle. I certainly do, there's too much of it for what is a relatively unimportant post.

RTE made a decision not to profile most of the people running for or looking for nominations. Vincent has got media coverage because of his slightly larger profile. He has certainly got a higher media profile than Eamonn Zaidan, Philip Doyle or Gráinne Conroy, all of whom are also looking for nominations from the Council. RTE made a judgement based on profile, credibility and common sense in terms of the limited amount of time they have to give to the issue. They made a sound decision. Simply because Vincent has politics that you, and others including myself, on Indymedia might find more attractive than Dana's, doesn't give him an automatic entitlement to equal airtime.

Is it your suggestion that all anyone has to do is decide to write to the Councils asking for nominations and they get equal airtime? There are at least five people doing this. If RTE had to give equal airtime to all of them it would be fifty. In such a circumstance they wouldn't cover it for the sheer inpracticality of it.

I note Vincent persists in two key myths. One, that public servants have a duty to support somebody to allow an election. No. They don't. In the slightest. At all. Councillors are under no obligation, legal, constitutional or moral to nominate someone for the Presidency simply because they want to be nominated. TDs are under no such obligation. Why should councillors indulge someone's ego trip? Back a candidate with political positions they profoundly disagree with? Councillors have this power, but it doesn't mean they are a rubber stamp for whatever candidate comes along.

Pat Rabbitte doesn't back you. You can disagree with that, condemn him for it, claim it exposes his politics, but claiming he has some sort of 'obligation' to nominate you because you share similar politics on issues or because he's a public servant is wishful thinking.

The second is that people want an election. Well, says who? There are opinion polls on both sides of the question and I can assure you the phone at our party HQ has not been ringing with hordes of voters demanding that a Presidential election take place. Vincent says the people want an election. Possibly they do, but there really doesn't seem to be a great deal of evidence for this theory. Certainly no great outcry for an election.

If Dana gets to run, and I doubt she will, the sight of the right fighting amongst themselves and wasting their resources in a pointless struggle doesn't particularly cry out to me for the Left to run someone who can waste resources in a pointless struggle. I should think we have better things to be doing.

by nomorepoolfeed Tue Sep 28, 2004 22:06

Justin

You proved my point. I've been keeping an eye on the whole saga and never could get the names of these people despite having asked the rte newsroom and the rte press officer for them as well as watching tv / reading the 'paper of record' . Today I got the info from you, a political insider, and from a roscommon county councillor (ex flash gordon baddie and hashmaniac).

I think members of the public definitively do have a right to this information -not just political party insiders and county councillors. Else the people they elect are making important decisions wrt matters of democratic process without oversight from the electorate who they are answerable to. RTE could simply have listed the names and groups from which potential candidates spring at the end of news items QUANDA 5/7 live items to fulfill this. Then we could argue about amounts.

As for section 31 etc - i think section 31 type policies still exist in RTE with regard to certain very important and 'sensitive' matters - no word from them on the whole shannon / gitmo thing even though tintin O'foole has introduced the matter to polite society today and even though it has had an amount of coverage in various other outlets - fuck sake - Pot kennedy had Seymour Hersh on his show a while ago - the story is in his book mentioning the irish connection - and Pot managed not to ask about it - how cheesy is that?

What is the SF party line on this shannonomo thing btw? What is the party line on the presidential election?

by who? Tue Sep 28, 2004 22:53

the indo had room for a quip about who ming might support but no room for mentioning vincent?

Éamonn Zaidan
http://www.eamonnzaidan.com/
don't see what he about though

can find this philip doyle on web?

Gráinne Conroy
A teacher and founder of the Rose Academy of Music
http://www.mayonews.ie/current/news.tmpl$showpage?value1=33048468931085399

by Phuq Hedd Wed Sep 29, 2004 07:06

You've never heard of them so you don't need to hear of them. Is that clear enough for you? Why should the State broadcaster paid for with our taxes have to give airtime to anything except advertisements for things to buy and advertisements for representatives of the parties that sell you to the advertisers? Do you think this is some sort of democracy?

Imagine what would happen if there were a reality TV show "Let's Elect A President!" with a whole fifty contestants, some smelly old men from Sinn Fein (with a couple of really sharp young fellas in shiny suits), a couple of Greens in hand-woven tweeds and cords and Kaffe Fasset sweaters, a couple of oul' hoors saying their rosaries, the obligatory law professors from TCD and UCD, and (god forbid) some dangerous ordinary people that'd kick the crap out of all of the above in a live debate)!

Couldn't have that could we Justin? Be a waste of the State broadcasters time (whose job it is to transmit official state propaganda and inculcate desirable buying habits in the public).

If nothing else, the attitudes of those that see no problem with the office of the Presidency being in the gift of the gombeens currently in office speaks volumes about the lack of respect that hardened political operatives like Justin have for democracy. (What was that scandal with Brian Lenihan? Didn't the "independent" office of the President have something to do with it?).

by Ray Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:30

If the argument is that anyone who writes to the councils looking for a nomination should be given airtime, then you are effectively saying that RTE should give airtime to anyone who wants to be on the telly. Vincent Salafia should have 5 minutes to explain Carrickmines, neutrality, and why he should be president. I should have 5 minutes to explain anarchism, Philip Roth, and why Dustin the turkey should be president. Mad crossbearing woman from Dublin should have 5 minutes to explain why abortion is murder, the third secret of Fatima is the fall of communism, and we should replace Mary Mac with the BVM.

Now, there is an argument that public television should be public access, that it would be good to have unfiltered, uncensored access to the airwaves. Indymedia tv if you like. But that has shag all to do with the presidential election.

In the presidential election, RTE are simply looking at the candidates, and giving them coverage based on how likely they are to get nominated/elected. If you think there are more important criteria which should decide how much airtime you get, then I have a suggestion. Look for airtime based on those other things, not on the fact that you're (not) running in the election.

by Joe McCann Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:22

One of the main dissappointments surrounding the lack of an election is that the chance to expose Sinn Fein for the green tories that they truly are has been lost.
SF was lining up to throw all their support behind Mary McAleese, for no other reason than she is a belfast Catholic and gives a 32 county veneer to the Aras. And not just any ordinary Catholic either, remember her campaigning against every attempt to change the constitution re Divorce and Abortion Referral Information in the 80s and 90s.
When Michael D Higgins was still looking for a nomination from Labour, (now sadly sold to Pat and Liz) not one single SF TD or Cllr came out to support what would have been a genuine socialist candidate. The chance to show up SF for what they really are, a neo-Fianna Fail, has been lost for now but will come about again.

by Vincent Salafia Wed Sep 29, 2004 13:33

PRESS RELEASE

VINCENT SALAFIA CAMPAIGN OFFICE

'Proposal For Presidential Election Convention To Be Sent Parties And Candidates Today'


Mr. Vincent Salafia, who has been seeking the required 20 nominations for the
Presidential election, is calling for a Presidential Election Convention to be
held on the evening of Thursday 30th September, at a location in Dublin.

The purpose of the convention would be to allow all presidential election
candidates an equal opportunity to make their case for nomination to Senators
and TDs from all political parties, along with all Independents. This event
would dispel the perception that back-room deals between political parties have
prevented there being an election. It would also give each candidate an equal
opportunity before the media and the Irish people to make their case for
nomination.

With two days to go before the October 1 closing date for nominations, it is
critical that all due consideration be given to the possibility of a
Presidential Election. This is a matter of extreme national importance. It
would appear that internal party politics have led to a situation where no
candidates, other than the sitting President, are to be nominated, and there
will be no election ballot. However, it would also appear that a large portion
of the electorate and Oireachtas members are not satisfied with this outcome,
and want an election.

Mr. Salafia is today calling on leaders of all political parties to allow their
Oireachtas members to exercise their constitutional right and perform their
public duty to nominate a candidate of their choice, in a non-partisan manner,
under Article 12 of the Constitution.

Article 12.2.1 of the Constitution states: “The President shall be elected by
direct vote of the people.”

Article 12.1.2 of the Constitution states: “Every citizen who has the right to
vote at an election for members of Dáil Eireann shall have the right to vote at
an election for President.”

Article 12.4.2 states “Every candidate for election, not a former or retiring
President, must be nominated either by:

(i) not less than twenty persons, each of whom is a the time a member of one of
the Houses of the Oireachtas, or
(ii) by the Councils of not less than four administrative Counties (including
County Boroughs) as defined by law.”

A Constitutional Election Convention would be possible if the leaders of the
various political parties were to agree not to discipline their Oireachtas
members for nominating a candidate. They could accomplish this if they agreed
to inform the public that nomination is simply a democratic procedural process,
not a political ballot.

Michael D. Higgins, Eamonn Ryan, Dana Rosemary Scallon and all other potential
candidates are to be invited to participate in the Convention.

Nomination by a member of the Oireachtas is therefore not a personal endorsement
of the policies of a particular candidate, and does not entail a commitment on
behalf of the party which the Oireachtas member is affiliated with. It is
merely an affirmation that the nominee is a credible candidate and fit to hold
office. Then, it is up to the people of Ireland to elect whom they want to be
President.

Each member of the Oireachtas should be free to exercise his or her
constitutional power to nominate, free from interference by the party as a
whole. Once an election campaign is underway, the parties could then decide
whether or not to endorse a particular candidate.

This proposal will be sent to the leaders of all political parties, and
candidates today, Wednesday 17th September, 2004.

Mr. Salafia said.

"It is not too late to salvage democracy out of this election process. It is my
hope the parties give this proposal serious consideration, and do their utmost
to foster open and democratic debate in relation to this, our highest office."

ENDS

CONTACT:

Vincent Salafia
087-132-3365

by Justin Moran Wed Sep 29, 2004 14:40

I didn't get the names because I'm a 'political insider'. I got them because I read the newspapers. All of those people have been mentioned in the Irish Times and a number got extensive coverage in their local newspapers.

I don't know what Sinn Fein's line is on the matter you refer to. I suggest you contact the party and find out if you're interested.

I am genuinely utterly astonished at how easily people on the left have been sucked into a non-issue. This is the Presidency we're talking about. Not political power. When people were talking about running Dennis Halliday for the Presidency my immediate reaction was why were people undermining efforts to organise for the European Constitution referendum, something infinitely more important, and throw away limited resources in a vanity project.

The level and scope of political immaturity on this issue is staggering. McAleese is a figurehead, a social conservative certainly, and not my first choice for President, but there are better things to be working on. I have no problem with her being President because she fulfills a quite pointless position quite well. If someone thinks backing McAleese would expose the Green Toryism of Sinn Fein, then that person's political anlaysis is not worth listening to. It's the selection of Presidency, not a major political issue. McAleese is a Nationalist, herself and her husband have done good work on the Peace Process and she would be my preference among any I've heard of so far with the exception of Michael D.

by Tom Wed Sep 29, 2004 14:52

Gerry came out and supported her candidature before it was even clear whether Michael D. was running or not. What form of democracy does Sinn Fein run on. Whatever Gerry says?

by ??? Wed Sep 29, 2004 14:55

she's only a figurehead with no real power

when have sf stopped the southern government in their tracks?

VS and friends did it for a while at carrickmines and he has every right and reason to question a preznit who passed the national monuments bill into law giving power to one man to run roads anywhere he wants.

she also signed off on the decision of the state to support the merkeens.

People want to talk about these things but parties are shutting it down - it is nothing but cynicism and cowardice and arrogance

by pookfeeddregsofkegs Wed Sep 29, 2004 15:08

you wrote: 'He has certainly got a higher media profile than Eamonn Zaidan, Philip Doyle or Gráinne Conroy, all of whom are also looking for nominations from the Council.'

You didn't write originally that you got the names in the media and maybe I overinterpreted the above line. Can you tell me specifically where you saw a list in the national print or broadcast meeja? We all don't have access to media monitoring units - like most of the citizenry we have to mock em up with tellies radios and crying babies and newspapers in the one lowly shack round are way - 'stand up beside the fireplace and take that look from off your face' -

Will be back to argue later tho ??? and Ms Hedd are doing nicely I think.

Would love to know if you are conducting this argumentation as work or play. I'm too polite to ask though. ;-)

by Justin Moran Wed Sep 29, 2004 16:19

I don't have access to a media monitoring unit. What I have are the two eyes with which I read the Irish Times yesterday that contained those names in a round-up of Council votes. I then used the internet to find out some more on the candidates. There was another candidate, a Sligo man, again mentioned in the Irish Times a week or two ago whose name I forget.

On Tom's point, it didn't happen. The party hasn't taken a position on who we would support for the Presidency, if anyone. That said, making things up is a fine way to conduct a political discussion and I'm sure you'll go far.

As for our friend with the question marks and limited understanding of Presidential powers, no-one is stopping anyone talking about anything. If people want to run for the Presidency there are routes available. No-one has an automatic right to be a candidate and no parties are under any obligation to take 5 million Euros that could be better spent elsewhere in order to fund ego trips.

As for Sinn Fein, we're the only party in Ireland that is a clear, present and real threat to the political and economic establishment on this island. We're also the party that stopped the Southern Government on Nice I and is going to shoulder the responsibility of trying to stop the European Constitution. And we're not going to waste time fighting pointless battles, nor supporting people who never asked us for our support.

And this argumentation is neither work nor play but an attempt to point out to people that there are bigger and more important battles to fight than the Presidency. Frankly I'm curious as to whether the people calling for Left candidates for the Presidency are not trying to undermine the left.

by Tom Wed Sep 29, 2004 16:43

"On Tom's point, it didn't happen. The party hasn't taken a position on who we would support for the Presidency, if anyone. That said, making things up is a fine way to conduct a political discussion and I'm sure you'll go far."

So when the Times had what follows in an article on the day McAleese announced her candidature for a second term the Times was lying.
Just haven't seen the correction yet.

"Sinn Féin has already said that it intends to support President McAleese, who will announce her re-election bid in Áras an Uachtaráin this morning."

by igottireddrainingthepoolforyou Wed Sep 29, 2004 16:57

'Frankly I'm curious as to whether the people calling for Left candidates for the Presidency are not trying to undermine the left.'

You mean Pet Rabbit up to 10? days ago. The Independent guy who was trying to get Dennis Halliday to Run? Eamonn Ryan too? Or me? or VS? Or Michael D and supporters? All have called for leftish candidates.

Jaysus that's nearly everyone but Sinn Fein - they must be the 'real' left who won NICE I all by themselves.

I would have campaigned and voted for any candidate who went forward willing to take a position against Irish Involvement in Iraq II - I was planning to do so and did campaign for the winner in a previous election - I even managed to generate some enthusiasm for eamonn ryan in my cold cold heart when he said the shit about the joints - so I'm disgusted and angry with pet rabbit and greenies and anti-war parties in general and I'm 100% sure I'm not the only one.

Ask some questions of ppl (on a shitty site nobody reads) who want to get together in the near future and make a government and it brings malicious hints that 'some people' are 'undermining the left' from sinn fein!!!!!

Doubleplusgood. Makes it sound like the last thing SF want is an alternative candidate to MMAL.

by aminddulledbyworkandwine (vintage 2004 / RTE PFeed Vineyard) Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:02

Oh goodness - that from the times appeared as i was typing. Someone with an IT online subscription. I'm gonna get me one of those. Might keep me out of a few arguments in the future. Now - who would SF have supported if Dennis Halliday had run i wonder - oh yeah I think i know - the left.

Quadrupleplusgood.

by Chekov Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:17

On one hand, I'm pretty sure that Justin would be whistling an entirely different tune if the backroom boys had managed to put together an SF supported candidate for the election.

On the other hand he's quite right.

We all know that the presidency is an irrelevancy and carries no political power. We could elect mahatma ghandi or ciaron o reilly and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the war or anything else. So, I echo his bafflement as to why people on the left are getting excited about this. You might as well campaign for an anti-war village in the tidy-towns competition or an anti-war singer in pop-idol.

It's also quite clear and obvious that Vincent's campaign is a vanity project. He has no chance of getting on to the ballot paper, never mind winning. As far as I know (which isn't very far I'll admit) he represents nobody but himself and nobody has a clue about his politics. Granted it would be funny if he did get elected, but Dustin would be funnier.

by Gearoid watch Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:28

"I think that Mary McAleese, because of her stature, because of her vision and because of her experience and skills, is best-suited for that responsibility as President of the people of this island,"

by cattle vs cane Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:41

'We all know that the presidency is an irrelevancy and carries no political power.'

Symbols are important. Tara is important. The national monuments bill is very important. the culture war (because that is what it is) between the feudal overlords and conservationists is important. Carrickmines was important. Shannon is important. Ideas are important. Attempting despite the entire political establishment to kick off some sort of national debate around ANYTHING is important at this stage. Else we are consumers of the presidency as well as of everything else.

by Ray Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:45

But the president can't flat out refuse to sign it. She or he can refer it back to the Supreme Court for them to assess its constitutionality, but that's it. Sure, its important to kick off a debate about society, but the presidency is a terrible battleground to pick.

by Chekov Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:53

The last time that I remember a real controversy over the president's actions was when Mary Robinson was due to meet Pinochet as the state's representative. She made a bit of a fuss, but was eventually presuaded to shake the general's hand as that was her duty to the office. Mary was elected as a 'symbol' of human rights, but it didn't make the slightest bit of difference to what she could do about it. If she couldn't even choose not to shake hands with bloody dictators, it's naive to think that she wielded any political power. Sure, there's a battle over conservation going on. Sure, I know which side I'm on. But wasting time and energy on a hopeless election for a powerless office isn't the way to fight it.

by . Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:54

'It's also quite clear and obvious that Vincent's campaign is a vanity project.'


how so?

by yar Wed Sep 29, 2004 18:09

when you don't even appear to know that the National Monuments Bill has been passed already by Elle Presidente. She and her Party (+ anti democratic rump) have made it legal ALREADY for Martin Cullen to run roads anywhere the fuck he pleases without any checks and balances. And nobody is making a fuss of trying to extract some retribution from FF etc for this sleazy proto-feudalistic move.

What do they have to do for the opposition (including the antirchists) to oppose them - oh yeah I forgot - run a road through Tara and charge people to drive on it for good measure? - Give the contract to who? CRH? Not good enough? halliburton? KBR? Would that do?


MEANWHILE IN BERTRUDES BRAIN
"Jaysus if there's a road we might sort it to put some houses together beside it for dublin serfs - they'd probably be happy to pay an extra 3/4 years surplus wages for the view too. We'll get away with it no bother - there's only that vain and unrepresentative gang the 'save tara skryne valley group' in our way and we've got their measure from the whole Carrickmines thing. The Greenies and the other mob are not gonna hassle us - too close to an election and they don't want to alienate the blueshirts - shur look at the way they chickened out of the Pres Election"

by Ray Wed Sep 29, 2004 18:19

It doesn't matter who the president is. If the Dail pass a bill, the president can't just refuse to sign it. All she/he can do is delay it, by referring it to the courts. Nor can the president order the army not to go abroad, or to arrest George Bush, even though she/he is technically the head of the armed forces.

The President is a figurehead. Not a position worth fighting for. Even if it were, there is no chance of Vincent Salafia getting elected. Even if he could get nominated, which he can't. Because most people don't know who the hell he is.

by Chekov Wed Sep 29, 2004 18:53

He is running as a representative of himself. His candidacy is seemingly without the support of any groups or organisations.

The only sure outcome of such a hopeless individual candidacy is to raise the profile of the individual. He might decide to raise some of his opinions in interviews and so on, but that is incidental to the net effect of such elections which is the raising of the profile of the individual involved. Do you remember the human rights revolution in Ireland after Mary Robinson got elected?

When individuals who are involved with campaigns decide, off their own bat, to run for prominent positions, you should always assume that personal ambition is a motivating force. Until you have good evidence to suggest otherwise, Occam's razor allows you to dismiss all other theories. In this case, the various reports that I have read about VS in the Phoenix tend to back this up (although these could of course be inaccurate and I don't know him so I could change my mind if I saw evidence to the contrary).

His press releases demanding media coverage of himself and hinting at legal action if the political parties don't support him (!!) further lead me to think that vanity is involved. Most individuals probably don't think that sending a letter seeking a nomination should qualify them for large amounts of national airtime.

by Justin Moran Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:01

To be honest Chekov, I don't think Sinn Fein should have run a candidate even if we could. It was never seriously discussed to my mind but I would have been vehemently against it. We've just had two election campaigns in the 26, Six County Locals next year and probably Wesminster with a Euro Constitution referendum somewhere. I think it would have been an extremely bad decision for Sinn Fein to run someone.

Regarding SF and McAleese, yes, Adams backed her seven years ago. And your point is? Fine Gael opposed her seven years ago and now back her. We haven't taken a position on this election and won't until the close of nominations.

And yes Tom, newsflash, newspapers sometimes misrepresent political parties they don't like. Next, rain really is wet. Point me to the SF statement, all archived on our site, saying such a thing.

As for Halliday, his strategy of telling the Times he would be troubled by having Sinn Fein support because of our alleged links to a private army wasn't calculated to win SF support. The people who were suggesting him as a candidate were told we were open-minded but would only consider it if a serious campaign plan dealing with organisation, finance, publicity, message etc. was mapped out. One was never presented.

Neither Michael D nor Eamon Ryan ever asked Sinn Fein at any level for our support in their candidacies.

And while we didn't win Nice all by ourselves I certainly believe that of left wing progressive forces, we can't forget the role the right played in defeating it, Sinn Fein did the lion's share of the work, spent most of the money, and delivered most of the votes. Sickens you, doesn't it?

And frankly considering the questions throw at SF on this matter I think it was only fair to throw some back. Running a left candidate in the Presidency would have been a strategic mistake of massive proportions. And I speak as someone who would have preferred Michael D over McAleese. It would have been extremely costly, time-consuming and exhausting. The Left would have been steamrollered by McAleese who would have outspent and outorganised us.

Presidential elections don't sneak up on people. They take place every seven years. McAleese had her people raising money and putting a campaign plan in place before the summer according to the Phoenix. Throwing an ill-conceived candidacy together at the last minute with no money, no planning, no organisation, no agreed platform, would have been tantamount to an act of inadvertent political sabotage.

by youhavetopayallthewaste Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:01

until he told marian F that he liked a bit of puff when he was younger

that's the power of tee bloody vee

and of the nasty hidden unaccountable gatekeepers who send half trained journos and press people onto the front lines to spout what they frequently know to be nonsense

I wonder how famous Vinnie would be if he had told her that many people would and will roll aound in the courts and the mud and fight hand to hand rather than let ff build that road

(written on the dozers will be - fuck mother earth - fuck dana - fuck our ancestors - it's time to build a new world)

((And to rub it in everyones faces they'll complete it in 12 years from now extravagantly over budget of course))

by askassistantbeforeyouwanttoprintsomethingout Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:12

and quoting the feenix - oh dear - and all that talk about munny and organisations and complex political secret society stuff - shur I can make up focus group results as good as any ffer like that frankie d guy and my focus group results are telling me the shinners are very clever (not left), the greens have no backbone (and not because they didn't support VS but because they didn't fight at all about anything including the presidency the trees they cuffed themselves to on O Connell st ) and labour are absolutely for the birds and should be renamed the belaboured party - oh yeah and anarchists are very very very serious and beyond reproach because they are hurling on the ditch on this one -

the government is laughing because there is no southern grown left opposition whatsoever

by Lone Gunman Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:21

How funny it is to see people say that a presidential campaign that can't be won (I agree) would be pointless for the left. Why then do you all gather for marches and protests which just anger motorists (they do) and couldn't possibly change the government's policies (true too)? According to Chekov's logic it must be ego.

by Justin Moran Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:31

I hear rambling. I hear incoherency. I hear incompetence. I hear sectarianism.

I don't hear ideas. I hear people whining about wanting a Presaidential election "just coz'"

No plan, no money, no idea, in a lot of the posts not a clue about the powers of the Presidency and the limits imposed on it.

The Government would laugh themselves sick at being given, not six months since their worst electoral performance since the 20s, the opportunity to wipe the floor with a left candidate whose own campaign would be a disorganised mess.

Deprive them of the contest and deprive them of the victory. We pick OUR battlegrounds, not the ones the Government wants us to fight on, and certainly not the ones none-too-bright and much-too-vague lefties want to throw away resources on.

The question has to be asked as to why people want to throw away resources in a fight for a politically powerless post. We have to wonder why some people are so eager to give a victory to Fianna Fáil. It is curious that some allegedly left wing activists want to divert people's attentions away from the struggles in their own fields and on to a pointless, personality driven, election contest. Who are the nameless people on this thread who want to weaken the left in Ireland by rounding us all up for another crippling defeat?

There are no arguments against democracy here. Just nonsense, abject nonsense.

by Chekov Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:42

What the hell does an election to a powerless position have to do with democracy? It's about as relevant as the eviction elections in big-brother. You'll also find that anarchists have had a consistent position against electoralism, for the last 130 years or so, due to the lack of democracy involved in representative parliaments. In this case, it is particularly easy for us to argue our point. So, I hardly think that criticising anarchists for 'hurling from the ditch' during a particularly pointless election is going to upset us too much.

LG: You display a fine command of logic. Mass collective action has a long history of achieving gains. The 8 hour day is one that I'm particularly fond of. If you don't see the difference in terms of effects on the ego in attending a demonstration on a particular issue - which will do nothing to raise your individual profile - and running in a personality-driven election campaign, then you are even dimmer than you generally appear.

by Vincent Salafia Wed Sep 29, 2004 21:47

To say that presidency is a powerless position is absurd. Even leaving aside the constitutional legislative role, and the right to address parliament, symbolism is a hugely powerful force. Any protest that does not use it is dead in the water. Symbolism is the diesel of the left, and having a left leaning president as opposed to a window dressing for the establishment would have been a positive thing, I imagine. It would have been a velvet rev' of sorts.

The Opposition parties themselves, along with Independents, have little other than symbolic and rhetorical clout. Enda's speech today a is a prime example.

Anyone who runs for any office or any position of leadership can be accused of vanity. It goes with the territory. But I entered this race to win, as I do any campaign. There is money, but little really needed, and there is a bundle of ideas. But listing off a load of policies is silly, because it is not a poltical or issue driven position. It is a position that demands integrity and individuality ... principles.

At the end of the day somebody has to stand up and say 'hang on a minute, what the f**k is going on?' Everyone has to make a stand sometime, somewhere. I am still making mine at Tara. The Presidential campaign would have offered a powerful pressure point, at one their sorest spots.

Nobody expected Eamonn to enter and pull out the way he did, including most Greens. The fact is I had considered the idea for a long time and contacted the Greens looking for support the day before Eamonn jumped. Coincidental? Was he just knocking on the door? Regardless, he ruined the field for anyone else to actually force an election.

Hearing that elections are a waste of time is frankly unbelieveable. There are many good candiates who could have given Mary a run for it. Nobody is unbeatable. Defeatism seems to rule here in Ireland, groaning under a passive conspiracy of failure. Sad to see even the Left has been sucked in. Scary.

Here is the sound of the toilet chain:

29 September 2004

Dear Vincent,

On behalf of the Green Party Parliamentary Group I write to thank you for your correspondence regarding a nomination to contest an election for the post of President of Ireland/ Uachtaran na Eireann. You are
aware that has a political party we actively considered entering such an election in our own right. However, we came to a decision that we did not have sufficient resources ourselves to effectively fight such a
campaign.

To this end we believe it would not be correct to initiate any further candidacy for the President. If a putative candidate can publicly
achieve the support of fourteen other members of the Houses of the
Oireachtas, it is a situation we are prepared to revisit. We regret that as of now, and particularly in the light of our recent experience, we cannot support your candidacy. May we wish you well in your future
efforts.

Dan Boyle TD
Green Party Whip

by askassistantbeforeyouwanttoprintsomethingout Wed Sep 29, 2004 22:11

1. This election was an opportunity for the leftishly inclined in ireland to be given a clear opportunity to register

a) Massive anti-occupation/war sentiment in the face of a government who despite the clearly expressed will of the majority supported the USUK invasion of Iraq, participated in a big way in a UN defined illegal war after sickening months of paying the UN lip service, asked for the release of kidnapped civilians in Iraq on the basis of Irish Anti-Colonialsm and Irish opposition to the war while facilitating kidnappings by the other side behind the screen of the irish military in Shannon. (legislation passed on day X passsed too by MMcAleese)

b) Opposition to an economic agenda which has massively fostered increasing social division between the have and the have nots.

c) Opposition to a wilful and reckless disregard for the national heritage, landscape and environment. (National Monuments Bill passed by MmcAleese)

2. This opportunity which Labour particularly seemed anxious to take up was abandoned by them and the Greens in quick succession and never taken up by Sinn Fein.

3. A general election will not provide an opportunity to express this opposition clearly. It will almost inevitably be a messy diffuse and hard, fought for partisan political party gain, scrap on local / bread and butter issues with a beauty contest between FG/Lab etc and FF/PD mashed down on top.

4. I mainly blame Labour and the Greens for this frustrating situation and do not accept they would have had to bankrupt themselves to provide the opportunity to people to express support for these positions (all of which Greens and Labour ad Sinn Fein would claim to hold - correct me if I'm wrong). They after all had only to get 12+% to get a refund of up to 1/4 million euro. Parties run offices anyway - candidates get guaranteed coverage from RTE - there are local radio stations all over the country which are a phone call away - there is the internet - and there are local newspapers - posters are a horrible waste anyway and not having posters or having just one would probably gain a candidate votes.

5. i refuse the label of 'sectarian' for expressing support for Salafia's attempts to give an alternative and show up the failure of the other parties in the face of this self serving and anti-democratic way of going on on the part of the self declared left parties. SF didn't enter into it until Justin appeared here trying to make mincemeat of this analysis. Most cracks at them (and my butties the antichrists) are in the nature of 'banter' as they never raised anyones hopes in this regard in the first place.

6. Sometimes power does not matter as much as the ability of a large swathe of the population making their voices clearly heard at the level of values.

7. And finally - wishlist for presidential candidates in order of preference

1.david Norris
2. Michael D
3. Joe Higgins ;-)
4. Denis Halliday
5. patricia Mckenna
6. Eamonn Ryan since he offered for a bit
7. Vincent salafia
8. dana

I was hell bent on campaigning for any of the above except 8 because I thought it was important

by wow dan Wed Sep 29, 2004 22:14

thats what I call courage

by that ''we'' that chooses our battles Wed Sep 29, 2004 22:15

.

by somebodyelsewhoislessarticulatethanthatotherguy Wed Sep 29, 2004 22:23

to askassistantbeforeyouwanttoprintsomethingout,

well said.

ive tried writing something similar many times in this discussion but deleted each time because i just don't have the articulation.

thanks

by Eamonn Zaidan Wed Sep 29, 2004 23:11

Hi,

I'm one of those 'ghost' names.

Read and re-read the thread...If I may, some of my views and thoughts...

Firstly in relation to:

"not even a line
by who? Tuesday, Sep 28 2004, 9:53pm

the indo had room for a quip about who ming might support but no room for mentioning vincent?

Éamonn Zaidan
http://www.eamonnzaidan.com/
don't see what he about though"

I am about me and the right to exercise my right to submit my name as a potential candidate. On the website, I gave an insight into some of my thoughts, certainly not all of them, but at the very least I left contact details if anyone wanted to know more.

Yup, I wrote to the national and regional press. I also wrote to the national and regional radio stations. If they contacted me, fair enough, if they did not, also fine with me. In saying that though, I have given several interviews on regional radio. The only coverage I got in Dublin (where I am from) was from 98FM who also interviewed me. NearFM which is a Northside community based radio station also contacted me today with regards to an interview.

I will applaud anyone who stood up to be counted and heard and offer a choice over being told there was no need for this election and the lack of support from so called opposition parties. So I doff my hat to Vincent Salafia, Grainne Conroy, Dana, Philip Doyle and Kevin Lee.

When I contacted the councils and members of the Oireachtas, I certainly did NOT expect it as my right to be given their nomination. Again, like the others, I offered to present myself to whoever expressed an interest. in what I had to say.

With voter turnout on the decline, is it any wonder that people have no interest in politics or dare I say it democracy..ok I said it...DEMOCRACY! ;) The last presidential election had a 48% turnout as opposed to a 62% in 1990. Our politicians it seems are not interested in the declining voters, I however am. I have stated it on the website, which incidentally will be completed regardless of the outcome of this 'election'.

We need to make politics interesting again for younger voters and the disenchanted voter, again our politicians don't seem that interested. Why? Could it be that a 75% turnout would result in a different Dail?

I have been disheartened by the comments that the Presidency is a waste... Why has it become so? At least present your arguements as to why it is not needed, convince me and maybe I will agree... What will replace it? Who will keep a check on legislation? Who then becomes the 'Head of State'?

At the end of the day, I stood up for what I believed in, nothing more, nothing less.

Have a pleasant evening...

Kind regards,

Eamonn

by pc Thu Sep 30, 2004 00:09

so kevin lee


from online.ie

Kevin Lee, a 69-year-old from Sligo, is also seeking nomination. The retired care-giver and Christian radical said he was frustrated to arrive back in Ireland after 15 years in Arizona and be greeted by what he termed "endless political scandal".

wow who has been doing all this?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_McAleese

by dl Thu Sep 30, 2004 02:24

hmmm.....

Looks like it might have been an interesting few weeks, doesn't it J, Chekov et al

by irememberyournameevidentlyyouveforgottenmine Thu Sep 30, 2004 21:44

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0930/carrickmines.html

"A source close to the Carrickmines campaign said the motivation for the appeal centred not just on Carrickmines Castle, but on the fact that 10% of archaeological features have disappeared between 1991 and 2002."

funny how things are the same everywhere when scorched earth neo-liberalism comes to town. It seems that the old city of Najaf is being levelled for 'development'

http://www.juancole.com/2004_09_01_juancole_archive.html#109643214294249701

"Major "redevelopment" must not be allowed to go ahead Saddam-style. The action appears to be motivated by security concerns and by highly questionable financial considerations. Economically, it is not in the interest of the people of Najaf to destroy the old city. All of the old city can be attractive to visitors, not just the holy shrine, and there is plenty of space for commercial and industrial development elsewhere in Najaf. Rushed "development" of the kind being undertaken is frequently accompanied by greed and financial corruption. It will benefit big contractors and absentee landowners, and the losers are usually the people who live in the city and those who value it, that is all of us Iraqis."

by Updater Fri Oct 01, 2004 13:35

McAleese has been returned unopposed as president.