Protest Against the Deportation of Irish Children

by George Keenan - Ardee Citizen & Bachelor Tue Sep 28, 2004 02:07

I think that this is a disgrace and I shall have to get on to Seamus Kirk as this is deplorable sending Irish born children out of the country. They are lovely looking people and we must remember thta it was not that long ago in England where we seen signs at digs. Irish and Black not wanted. Yes let Irsih born children stay in the land of their birth as they are Irish citizens and the parents as well. I would marry an African woman myself if she would marry me. They are lovely people God Bless them. George.

by Tony Wed Sep 29, 2004 19:20

Well done Mark.

The usual claptrap, fantasy and lies.

What is a mass deportation? Is it the 22 Nigerians deported in 2003?

Where, I ask yet again, is the proof that decisions are not made on an individual basis?

You say the High court "overturned" the decision to allow people stay. It did not. It affirmed the RIGHT of the Government to deport those who are illegal immigrants, even if they had a child here, when the situation was reaching crisis levels. Those that qualified for residence beforehand did so on a mis-interpretation of our laws.

They received a undeserved "amnesty".

Enough is enough.

Contrary to what you state, the families did do something wrong. They entered or remained in this country illegally. Many made bogus claims for asylum and virtually all, inflicted themselves on the Irish taxpayer and forced them to subsidise their presence.

€350 million of subsidy in 2003.

Far from "not knowing what future lies ahead" they know damn well that this country does not welcome those who had no reason to be here in the first place.

Anyone who "wants a fair and just Ireland" will welcome their expeditious removal and so, welcome those that come to our country in accordance with our laws and with OUR interests at heart.

These people "fuel racism" and resentment Mark which may go some way to explaining the utter lack of support for your unreasonable and contemptible position.

by Tom Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:50 olearys at oceanfree dot net

The fact that anyone is considered a citizen of a country solely by their physical birth on its land is ridiculous. If I was working for a stint with a company in China and my wife had a child while we were there, I would think it absurd that my child is Chinese or a citizen of China. It would be even more absurd that my new baby's entire family, including myself, would automatically become Chinese citizens.

Citizenship by birth should only be granted when the birth parents are citizens themselves...otherwise it is illogical as the child cannot fend for himself. To that end, non-national application for citizenship should be considered by naturalisation within a system in which the applicant is old enough to demonstrate an understanding, accordance and acceptance of the laws of the state (i.e. we don't allow forced female circumsition/genital multilation in this country and the applicant needs to be able to understand this and agree that as a citizen she will abide by this, etc.)

If anything needs to be changed, than it is our illogical process of granting citizenship to a dependent baby who happens to be born here while his mother was passing through. Remember also, that everyone desiring citizenship in Ireland is ALREADY a citizen somewhere else. Normally, citizenship is a lengthy process that occurs after an applicant has had time in "residency" to adapt to the new culture and learn about the history, language, systems and politics of the country in which she wants to be a citizen. In the US there is a written examination which must be passed in order to graduate from "residency" to "citizenship".

by Joe Thu Sep 30, 2004 14:01

In fact Tom 'we' do "allow forced female circumsition/genital multilation". That is it is not illegal and the speculation is that one reason why this is so is otherwise the government would have to acknowledge the threat of FGM as grounds for asylum. The government is happly deporting women to countries where they fear this as of now.

Also its ironic you pick the US as an example because "A child born on American soil automatically gets U.S. citizenship, unless the child is born to a foreign government official who is in the United States as a recognized diplomat."
http://tinyurl.com/4wotr

But sure didn't McDowell put out the lie that Ireland was in a somehow unique position in regard to citizenship many times during the referendum.

A question for the lawyers. Do all countries automatically grant full citizenship rights to children born of citizens of that country when abroad? If not are we actually now putting children in the circumstances where they may be citizens of nowhere by right.

by Tom Thu Sep 30, 2004 14:42 olearys at oceanfree dot net

Joe

"In fact Tom 'we' do "allow forced female circumsition/genital multilation". That is it is not illegal and the speculation is that one reason why this is so is otherwise the government would have to acknowledge the threat of FGM as grounds for asylum."

speculation schmeculation...we don't have a specific law pertaining to FGM because one was never needed in our culture, thank god. There isn't a law for every specific act committed. Believe me, if somebody was found performing FGM in Ireland they would be before a court, in handcuffs on whatever legal grounds we do have...assault with intent to cause bodily harm or whatever laws would cover it.

"Also its ironic you pick the US as an example because "A child born on American soil automatically gets U.S. citizenship, unless the child is born to a foreign government official who is in the United States as a recognized diplomat."
http://tinyurl.com/4wotr"

My use of the United States was in regard to citizenship requirements within the naturalisation process. It just doesn't make any sense to grant a baby born to non-nationals citizenship when his parent's aren't entitled to citizenship. A real legal brainfart.

"If not are we actually now putting children in the circumstances where they may be citizens of nowhere by right."

I'm no lawyer, but it seems rather obvious that children would be citizens of the country(ies) in which their parent's come from or have citizenship in (wrt: dual citizenship), when their birth is registered in accordance with the rules of that country. There are Irish children born overseas regularly and when their birth is registered here then they are recognised as Irish citizens.

Listen, I challenge everyone to really think logically about this. Put aside all emotional persuations and justifications and you'll realise that objectively it makes no sense to grant citizenship to a new-born baby who is totally dependent on his non-national parent(s). And if his parent(s) isn't a citizen of the country that he is physically born in, then it's ridiculous to grant the baby citizenship because his mother happened to be in that country on the day of his birth.

by Joe Thu Sep 30, 2004 15:07

Your a bit sensitive to criticism Tom!

It is a simple fact that FGM is not illegal and as far as I know there is even campaign demanding it be may so. You've been making a big deal of 'facts' you can't cry off when they don't go your way.

BTW you'd want to watch those references to 'our culture' least you let your mask slip.

Also its a simple fact that the country you were holding up as a model in one regard is one that grants automatic citizenship to all babies born there. And there is far, far more migration into the US both legal and 'illegal' then there is into Ireland. Again you can't cry off when the facts don't go your way.

Finally you are no lawyer so I don't know why you are trying to answer the question I posed. But what you may think is obvious is not necessarly the way the law will see things. Maybe you felt the need to jump in with an answer because one possible answer would leave you having to reconsider the consequences of the referendum.

by observer Thu Sep 30, 2004 15:22

Tom is right - it is not specifically illegal because it is not something that the courts have ever had to deal with as a specific offence. He is also correct in stating that any person who was found to have carried out such a barbaric act in this country would indeed be charged with a serious offence and dealt with accordingly. Mind you if that did happen it is also possible that the perpetrator if from a country where FGM is part of the "culture" would be defended by multi culturalists here on such spurious grounds.

by Joe Thu Sep 30, 2004 16:09

Whether or not the courts have dealt with it is irrelevant. The courts interpet law, they don't make it so its the state that chooses to make or not to make such things illegal.

It is possible that someone who carried out an FGM and was not a doctor could be done for grevious bodily harm. However there is nothing I know of preventing a doctor doing so, they are all do the very much less damaging male circumcision without fear of prosecution.

And for the information of those hiding behind 'our culture' the main pressure for a law against FGM has come from Africans living in Ireland some of whom would be under threat of FGM back home. There is no more a single 'African' culture on this question any more then there is a single Irish culture on the question of priests raping children. Something 'we' tolerated for many decades.

And I'm an anti-racist, not a multi-culturalist. I critically examine all cultures including what I guess you might mean by 'our culture'.

by iosaf Thu Sep 30, 2004 16:20

if he hadn't been a US citizen (simply by being born to non nationals conveniently on arrival and not a few days earlier at sea) he would have got shot like he was supposed to (along with all the other british subjects) in 1916 and we wouldn't be debating these changes to his constitution now.
would we?
Maybe it was the liberal authorities of the British Empire who are to blame for recognising De Valera as american.
why did they do that?
What is clear, is that the very special gift of citizenship which the Irish people don't seem to realise is their birthright, has been taken from mothers throughout the poorest countries of the world thanks to Michael McDowell. A few months ago, a woman might decide to carry her child, give birth to it, and offer it as birthright, citizenship of our country, membership of our nation.

& now she can't.

Somehow, I think less of my country for that.

by Joe Thu Sep 30, 2004 17:30

I see someone using bad examples and then trying to stick to them come hell or high water rather then objectivity but we could go on about that till the cows come home.

I agree that the EU is the driving force behind what are objectively racist border controls. That is racist in effect if not in intent, if you doubt this go and stand at passport control at Dublin airport for a while and observe who gets pulled over. The struggle against these controls (and the 3,000+ people they have already killed) is indeed a European struggle.

As for the 'culture' thing you may be unaware of this but pretty much only the most nutty out posts of the far right proclaim themselves to be racist nowadays. Instead they hide behind 'cultural differences'. Our friend blabbering about multi-culturalism may be one of those types.

For me the citizens of a country are those who live in it, whatever their origins (I'm a '98 republican in that sense). The cultures of a country are whatever we do. There is neither a single culture on this island (I've little in common with the crowd whose culture is marching around on the 12th for instance) nor are any of these cultures fixed in stone. Which is just as well as most cultures come with a far amount of shit mixed in with the good stuff whether thats FGM or turning a blind eye to priests raping children. Enjoy the good stuff, challenge the bad and gaze with horror at those who suggest citizenship should come with a culture test! Eeek!

by Tony Thu Sep 30, 2004 18:38

Says

"What is clear, is that the very special gift of citizenship which the Irish people don't seem to realise is their birthright, has been taken from mothers throughout the poorest countries of the world thanks to Michael McDowell. A few months ago, a woman might decide to carry her child, give birth to it, and offer it as birthright, citizenship of our country, membership of our nation."

Completely wrong I am afraid. The mothers do not qualify for citizenship, never did. They were not born here.

Our citizenship is what we decide it should be. If it is not, we debase it and the entire communal structure built around it is corroded. Under it we agree to democracy, rule of law, taxation etc. etc.

Also, our citizenship is not a trinket that you give to a child nor is it a commodity for human trafficking bastards to sell to illegal immigrants - who either could not be bothered to legally enter our country or have so little to contribute - would not qualify in the first instance.

by redjade Thu Sep 30, 2004 19:05

I am not a lawyer, but any of the following could apply towards the rights of Irish Citizen Children. And this is just the EU Rights, anyone care to look up what the Irish Constitution says about the protection of families of Irish Citizens?

. . . . .

The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union
http://www.europarl.eu.int/charter/default_en.htm

Article 7
Respect for private and family life
Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications.

Article 18
Right to asylum
The right to asylum shall be guaranteed with due respect for the rules of the Geneva Convention of 28 July 1951 and the Protocol of 31 January 1967 relating to the status of refugees and in accordance with the Treaty establishing the European Community.

Article 19
Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition
1. Collective expulsions are prohibited.
2. No one may be removed, expelled or extradited to a State where there is a serious risk that he or she would be subjected to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 20
Equality before the law
Everyone is equal before the law.

Article 21
Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

Article 45
Freedom of movement and of residence
1. Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.

Article 33
Family and professional life
1. The family shall enjoy legal, economic and social protection.

by Tony Thu Sep 30, 2004 19:42

Our constitution has primacy over The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

There is such a thing as collective rights too though rarely discussed. Abuse of citizenship is an attack on peoples right to determine who enters their country and what conditions apply to their stay. In extreme cases - abuses of such rights have given us colonialism and genocide.

I see my last post was deleted. Hows about people trafficking "businessmen". I dont apologise for calling these b******s what they are and I'm not in the business of awarding them accolades for their contribution to the immigration chaos in this country.

by john finn - none Fri Oct 01, 2004 15:59 finn0000 at hotmail dot com 7116294

The law is clear that prior to a deportation order being made a 15 day letter issues to the last known address of the proposed deportee. They can make all the representations they like as to why they should not be deported. A detailed reported is prepard for the Minister on their case and only at that stage is a final decision is made. Even then they can go to the High Court if they believe no fair procedures were followed.
How much fairer can the State be. In the mean time we pay all the bills for the uninvited guests.

by Tom Fri Oct 01, 2004 18:10 olearys at oceanfree dot net

At present, my two girls are dual citizens of Ireland and America, not because they were born in either place (they were actually born in Italy...hmmmm, I wonder if they are Italian citizens as well??), but because their parents are citizens of both places, and their births were registered in both places by us through the normal, boring process of official registration.

Here's the plan, we are going to go to Russia just prior to the birth of our next child, and to China just prior to our fourth, and so on, until we are all, by virtue of our childrens' birth, citizens all of those places.

I, well, we all will be Irish-Italian-Russian-Chinese-American-etc... We'll have to include Monacco in there as well for tax purposes. We will be called the world family and when we argue, it might actually cause a world war.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all just live where we wanted to and vote where we wanted to...imagine if we could all vote in the upcoming US election...the difference that could be made. If everyone in the whole world was a citizen of every country in the world? Totally open borders with one international police force.

Ah yes....we are the world.

by RT Fri Oct 01, 2004 18:18

These families of irish citizen children were told by McDowell that if they give up their asylum claims he will sort out their issues for staying.

being born an irish citizen is not a 'loop hole' as mcdowell says - its a right, as the law was.

maybe rights only mean something to you when you are in danger - your 'italian children' are under no threat of deportation to a country that stones women to death and can barely feed its people. luck you!

anyway, these families with irish citizen children took the bait and then mcdowell did the switch.

now these citizens are being deported.

Your kids were born in the EU and you are from ireland, an EU country. thats why it doesnt matter that your kids were born in italy.

by Tony Fri Oct 01, 2004 19:47

This is tiresome but anyhows:

_________________
These families of irish citizen children were told by McDowell that if they give up their asylum claims he will sort out their issues for staying.
_________________

Did he ring them and tell them individually? Is he now personally involved in claims? Any idea whose doing the job of Justice Minister in his absence?

_________________
being born an irish citizen is not a 'loop hole' as mcdowell says - its a right, as the law was.
_________________

I think you have got quite confused by this issue. You are mixing statements and ending up with an unintelligible mess.

_________________

maybe rights only mean something to you when you are in danger - your 'italian children' are under no threat of deportation to a country that stones women to death and can barely feed its people. luck you!
_________________

Ireland does not deport those who qualify for refugee status. Do a google search for refoulement - Is that clear enough

_________________

anyway, these families with irish citizen children took the bait and then mcdowell did the switch.
_________________

He did not make the "switch". Our courts adjudicated that we had a right to deport people who have childern here. The referendum gave democratic legitimacy to what was a mess.


_________________

now these citizens are being deported.
_________________

Not strictly true. Their parents are. Natural justice dictates that any child be with its parents. For instance - we do not question every Irish person emigrating on whether THEIR childern have a choice in the matter.

_________________


Your kids were born in the EU and you are from ireland, an EU country. thats why it doesnt matter that your kids were born in italy.
_________________

Youve lost me.

by Tom Fri Oct 01, 2004 21:05 olearys at oceanfree dot net

"Your kids were born in the EU and you are from ireland, an EU country. thats why it doesnt matter that your kids were born in italy."

Are you saying that if my children were born outside of the EU I wouldn't be able to document them as citizens in Ireland upon my return home? I don't get where you're coming from. I just want to find out if they are Italian citizens because they were born there....I'll look it up today.

I think that we're involved in too much conjecture here. If somebody would show me evidence of a refugee family that was kicked out of Ireland and sent back to a place where they were in serious danger, then I would question our system. But, I don't think that's happening. I believe that legitimate claims for refugee status are processed fairly and compassionately in Ireland.

And by evidence, I don't mean so and so knows so and so and they said.....I mean hard evidence of an actual refugee application with details of the situation and subsequent evidence of rejection of that application by our government without just cause.

Until then, its all very hypothetical and speculative.

by Tom Fri Oct 01, 2004 21:28 olearys at oceanfree dot net

I'm afraid that my children born in Italy are NOT Italian citizens afterall. One parent must be an Italian citizen for a child born there to be documented as a citizen! C'i vediamo?

"The legal term for citizenship by birth is jus soli which refers to countries that grant citizenship to persons born on their "soil" regardless of the nationality of the parents. Of the 38 countries surveyed for this study, 12 grant automatic citizenship to those born on their soil while 26 do not (see chart on page 4). For the purposes of this chart, "birth" refers only to whether a person is guaranteed citizenship simply by being born in that country, regardless of the status of the parents. However, "birth" does not include children of diplomats or other persons performing official duties abroad, as most countries, including the United States, do not give citizenship to the children of foreign nationals in a country on official business of their home government."

To see the table of what countries grant citizenship by birth, go to: http://www.cis.org/articles/1993/back793.html

by Skyte - Cooley Singles Association Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:31

I feel you are all missing the point as if you have enough money you will go any where in the world. Politicians love waffling with words and to be honest with you all they fill us with a load of the 4 letter word as it all boils down to money. If you have no cash God or Allah etc help you. If you have loads of it you can get what you want. All as I say is help those as I pity them that have poor means of subsistance. Our forefathers were glad of gettin based worldwide when they had to leave this country in plight of a mere exisistance. I would love to see Micky Mc Dowell having to struggle as he is an active puppet for Fianna Fail. The PD's will sink if his ideas are kept on board and Fianna Fail wants to take note or they could sink along with him as Sinn Feinn are the party of the future whether you like it or not. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. And for fecks sake make sure you have no hash in it or Mc Dowell will have you in Jail and cost the country more lolly @ €1500 per week to the state. The whole thing is a jpke. Bye for Now. Skyte. See ye in Martin's some night.