Fight the racists

by patriot Fri Aug 20, 2004 22:25

Yes!! especially the anti-Irish racists—like you crowd.

by . Fri Aug 20, 2004 23:08

Patriot what are you on about?

by skafrican Fri Aug 20, 2004 23:17

A good place to poster would be along the giant horrible steel fottress being erected by companies promoting money grabbing shite trendy cock rock acts along the Botanic gardens embankment.

by APP Sun Aug 22, 2004 15:25

Anti-Irish racists??? How irish people have forced out of their homes through violence and intimidation recently? (loyalist violence notwithstanding)
'Patriot'- Do you seriously believe that anyone opposed to discrimination and fascist terror is an anti-irish racist. No more white supremacist bullshit please.

by patriot Mon Aug 23, 2004 09:29

No that’s not being said but, Institutional anti- Irish racism in relation to non-nationals is the norm in most government and state services thanks to your ideological fellow travelers in Officialdom (a fact you’d be loathe to acknowledge, yet it’s blatant). You’d rather try to discredit this fact even though (or perhaps even because) it’s the Irish poor who most acutely are aware of and suffer as a consequence from it. Apart from that, these boards are full of defamatory posts maligning Irish attitudes particularly in the wake of the citizen referendum. No attempt seems to be made to see a legitimate concern or a perspective which many genuinely feel on the whole immigration/asylum issue. Abuse, invective, slander and opprobrium seem to be the standard response to anyone who challenges your orthodoxy. Sooner or later ‘you’ll come a cropper’ because here as elsewhere ‘the truth will out’. Btw it’s hilarious that you claim this to be ‘alternative’ as the state and multi-national run O’Reilly media couldn’t be more in agreement with you. It’s your opposition which are real the proverbial voices in the wilderness (media-wise that is).

Nuff said!!

by G Murphy Mon Aug 23, 2004 22:53

This is why we had the troubles for 30 years, they thought that they could intimidate a race of people. The next thing they will be saying is that the ethnic minoritys are taking all the jobs. They would know all about that wouldn't they?
These are loyalists who are narrow minded sick individuals. The nationalist community should rally round and help the ethnic minoritys , that means force if necessary which seems to be te only thing these people understand and what stopped them burning us out our homes

by APP Thu Aug 26, 2004 02:52

1."No that’s not being said but, Institutional anti- Irish racism in relation to non-nationals is the norm in most government and state services thanks to your ideological fellow travelers in Officialdom (a fact you’d be loathe to acknowledge, yet it’s blatant)."

I'm sorry, you think IRISH people are being discriminated against? Despite the fact that immigrants are poorer, suffer subhuman living conditions, get worse wages and/or are banned from working, are more likely to be homeless, face frequent police harassment and are regularly deported to countries where they face death, persecution or crippling poverty? Patriot- would you trade places with a black or asian immigrant in Ireland? Seriously. Also you claim that Officialdom are our 'fellow travellers' This would be the same officialdom that brought in the Citizenship Referendum and the chilling Immigration Bill which among other things bans disabled people from entering the country. The same Officialdom who send their cops to intimidate, brutalise and jail every time we hold a demo? If their our fellow travellers they have a strange way of showing it.

2."You’d rather try to discredit this fact even though (or perhaps even because) it’s the Irish poor who most acutely are aware of and suffer as a consequence from it."

The Irish poor suffer because of low wages, high prices, unafforable housing, layoffs, welfare cuts, shitty public services etc. None of this has anything to do with immigrants. It's called CAPITALISM! Refugees do not live off the backs of the Irish poor. They are the poorest section of Irish society with the possible exception of Travellers. Walk through the centre see how many homelss immigrants you see begging.

3."Apart from that, these boards are full of defamatory posts maligning Irish attitudes particularly in the wake of the citizen referendum. No attempt seems to be made to see a legitimate concern or a perspective which many genuinely feel on the whole immigration/asylum issue. Abuse, invective, slander and opprobrium seem to be the standard response to anyone who challenges your orthodoxy. Sooner or later ‘you’ll come a cropper’ because here as elsewhere ‘the truth will out’. "

Obviously I cant take responsibility for every post on this site but generally there is nothing wrong with maligning opinions which you disagree with. Thats essentially what debate is. While im sure many people who are not racists or fascists do have genuine concerns about the asylum 'issue', these concerns are based on government and media hysteria rather than actual facts or reason. Anyway the Irish have no right to give out about immigration considering that we've emigrated en masse to various countries down the years - and faced the same racist shit that asylum seekers now face in Ireland.
And using abuse against your opponents is a feature of every political viewpoint. Have you visited a right-wing message board lately?

4."Btw it’s hilarious that you claim this to be ‘alternative’ as the state and multi-national run O’Reilly media couldn’t be more in agreement with you. It’s your opposition which are real the proverbial voices in the wilderness (media-wise that is)."

While the mainstream media may pay lip service to racial equality, I think you'll find that most comment on immigration, the 'war on terror', globalisation or any far-left organistion is firmily on the right-wing authoritarian side of things.

Nuff said!

by patriot Thu Aug 26, 2004 15:44

“I'm sorry, you think IRISH people are being discriminated against? Despite the fact that immigrants are poorer, suffer subhuman living conditions, get worse wages and/or are banned from working, are more likely to be homeless, face frequent police harassment and are regularly deported to countries where they face death, persecution or crippling poverty?”


You claim immigrants are poorer. If you mean asylum seekers where I live they drive cars, are housed in ,in many cases brand new ,owner-occupier estates get free child care and facilities ,get welfare for any amount of services not open to Irish or E.U.
They seem, if anything, to belong to the upper classes of their Country (after all aren’t they the only ones who can afford to come here).
I know of one homeless hostel run by the health Board. I have NEVER come across an asylum seeker needing to be housed there-unlike friends of mine who had. The Irish on housing lists can only expect to be housed in a war zone of a local authority housing area.
Asylum seekers also seem to enjoy preferential treatment in the allocation of training and educational places
So in terms of welfare and housing benefits many People I know would gladly trade places with them. This is particularly true in the regions outside of the Capital were these policies are, I suspect, strategically enacted and most blatantly obvious.

“The Irish poor suffer because of low wages, high prices, unafforable housing, layoffs, welfare cuts, shitty public services etc. None of this has anything to do with immigrants. It's called CAPITALISM!”

I acknowledge that neo-liberal economic policy hurts the socially disadvantaged but bringing mass immigration doesn’t help them either. Competition for finite resources and services is what this is also about – something somebody with a leftist ideological mindset of seems incapable of seeing. Yet the archest simpleton understands this, if only instinctually.

“Anyway the Irish have no right to give out about immigration considering that we've emigrated en masse to various countries down the years - and faced the same racist shit that asylum seekers now face in Ireland”

This is the ‘old moral blackmail’ argument that since the Irish have a tragic history of emigration we forfeit the moral right to protest.
This is as if to say that immigration is a ‘punishment’ for the host country so now we deserve a’ taste of our own medicine’- Strange and somewhat inconsistent for people who claim it to be a ‘positive’.

Also you are also logically arguing that other Countries like Poland, Italy and Spain must lay back and take it too. But it seems that every People and Country have a natural right to protectionist measures if they, as a society, deem them necessary and in their best interests and that includes on immigration control.

“The same Officialdom who send their cops to intimidate, brutalise and jail every time we hold a demo?”


You experience of Officialdom, I’d suggest, is more to do with you tendency of going and picking fights with it than a given ideological difference with it.

There has to be a machine in place to enable the above mentioned benefit system to work.

The laws you mentioned were brought in by Government and, and as illustrated the 1980s series ‘Yes Minister’, there is constant tension between the political class and the bureaucrats. Rather than there being a single monolith there is a contradictory character to the whole ‘system’ because of this.
Many in the higher ranks of the public services are as bent on social engineering as any politico.

“Obviously I cant take responsibility for every post on this site but generally there is nothing wrong with maligning opinions which you disagree with”

But personal abuse is usually a sign of having no real argument.

On media, I stand by my original position, as I see it The State(Establishment)-run and Multi-National run both push a pro-multicult line.
In fact I’d say that the O’Reilly press is more than anyone out to promote the ‘coolness’ of multiculturalism. (When was the last time you saw issues I raised here discussed in any Mass-media organ?)



You may like to see yourself as an anti-establishment renegade but that to me is more to do with self-flattery than an objective or realistic assessment. The Establishment , a la Tony O 'Reilly etc, I reckon, really loves ya! (Apart from your occasionally disruptive, but easily contained behavior.) After all, aren’t you fighting their battle for them and suppressing the real opposition?

Nuff said! (Once more)
Roll on abuse, invective and slander.

by Joe Thu Aug 26, 2004 16:10

"If you mean asylum seekers where I live they drive cars, are housed in ,in many cases brand new ,owner-occupier estates get free child care and facilities ,get welfare for any amount of services not open to Irish or E.U."

Err you may be making the mistake of thinking that any migrant you see is an asylum seeker. In fact the overwhelming majority of migrants into Ireland are not asylum seekers but people with work permits (or EU citizens who don't need them).

As asylum seekers normally get less than the Irish dole (many only get meals plus 19 euro a week pocket money) and have more restricted access to services then the rest of us the migrants you describe above are clearly not asylum seekers.

You probably don't see asylum seekers in the hostels your familar with for this reason. They are packed into specialist establishments where they get shit canteen food and 19 euro a week. Take a trip up to Mosney where hundreds of people are virtually prisoners under such conditions. (They can come and go when they wish but as its 16 euro for a return ticket to Dublin and there is not much locally its more of an open prison than anything else.

There are a lot of odd myths out there, sometimes they are based on weird single case exceptions (the car one for instance) but they are myths and do not describe the treatment 99.9% of asylum seekers face.

The odd thing is how willing people are to believe and repeat such myths. If you believe the myths to be true simply give us some exact examples that can be checked up on and confirmed.

by R.Isible Thu Aug 26, 2004 19:10

The person you're replying to (based on your quote) is "APP" not "r. isable".

by APP Thu Aug 26, 2004 21:19

"You claim immigrants are poorer. If you mean asylum seekers where I live they drive cars, are housed in ,in many cases brand new ,owner-occupier estates get free child care and facilities ,get welfare for any amount of services not open to Irish or E.U.They seem, if anything, to belong to the upper classes of their Country (after all aren’t they the only ones who can afford to come here).
I know of one homeless hostel run by the health Board. I have NEVER come across an asylum seeker needing to be housed there-unlike friends of mine who had. The Irish on housing lists can only expect to be housed in a war zone of a local authority housing area.
Asylum seekers also seem to enjoy preferential treatment in the allocation of training and educational places
So in terms of welfare and housing benefits many People I know would gladly trade places with them. This is particularly true in the regions outside of the Capital were these policies are, I suspect, strategically enacted and most blatantly obvious."

This is just not true. As Joe said some IMMIGRANTS have cars, which like Irish people they pay for with money they worked to get, but few to no asylum seekers do. It is a FACT that asylum seekers get worse welfare, benefits and are more likely to live in poverty. Of course if you see asylum seekers getting social welfare as a problem the obvious solution to that is to give them the legal right to work. Or would that be stealing Irish jobs? Asylum seekers risk their lives paying people traffickers to smuggle them into Europe. Is this something that upper class people, who are living in luxury in their own countries, would feel the need to do? Immigrants make up a large portion of the homeless, certainly in Dublin and if you look at any of the very low paying job sectors, such as fast-food workers anyone who actually earns their living their there will be an immigrant.

"I acknowledge that neo-liberal economic policy hurts the socially disadvantaged but bringing mass immigration doesn’t help them either. Competition for finite resources and services is what this is also about – something somebody with a leftist ideological mindset of seems incapable of seeing. Yet the archest simpleton understands this, if only instinctually."

Well to begin with, mass immigration is not happening in Ireland right now. The number of people coming to permanently live in Ireland is quite small, it just seems that way because until relatively recently Ireland was quite a mono-racial society. And anyway immigration does benifit the socially disadvantaged - for example the Health Service would have completely collapsed by now were it not for foreign workers.
As for your point about this being about competition for finite resources, well once again you accidently stumbled on the problem. Society has more than enough wealth to provide decent housing, jobs, healthcare and so on to everyone Native and Immigrant. But under capitalism billions of Euros of this wealth goes to the personal bank accounts of the bosses in the form of profit. So different sectors of workers are left fighting over the crumbs from the table. If you recognise the negative effects of neo-liberal policies, as you claim, then surely the answer is to unite all workers against the common enemy rather than feed into resentment and division which serves the interests of the establishment.

"This is the ‘old moral blackmail’ argument that since the Irish have a tragic history of emigration we forfeit the moral right to protest.
This is as if to say that immigration is a ‘punishment’ for the host country so now we deserve a’ taste of our own medicine’- Strange and somewhat inconsistent for people who claim it to be a ‘positive’."

You are the one claiming that immigration is a bad thing not me. But whether it good or not is irrelevant to the point that it is hypocritical for Irish people to be opposed to it. Irish protesting against immigrats makes about as much sense as hardline stalinists protesting against political repression. Also its interesting how you say that the Irish "have a tragic history of emigration", whereas modern day asylum seekers are simply spongers. Is this not an inconsistency?

"Also you are also logically arguing that other Countries like Poland, Italy and Spain must lay back and take it too. But it seems that every People and Country have a natural right to protectionist measures if they, as a society, deem them necessary and in their best interests and that includes on immigration control."

Protectionist policies have the effect of pitting workers against each other and cause hardship almost without exception. No i don't believe that any country has the right to protect its so-called national interest at the expense of other countries' poor. Are the western nations not simply 'protecting their national interest ' when they demand pay back debt which is crippling their economies?


"You experience of Officialdom, I’d suggest, is more to do with you tendency of going and picking fights with it than a given ideological difference with it.
There has to be a machine in place to enable the above mentioned benefit system to work.
The laws you mentioned were brought in by Government and, and as illustrated the 1980s series ‘Yes Minister’, there is constant tension between the political class and the bureaucrats. Rather than there being a single monolith there is a contradictory character to the whole ‘system’ because of this.
Many in the higher ranks of the public services are as bent on social engineering as any politico. "

I can assure their is a massive ideological difference between the ultraleft and establishment. We are antiwar, anticapitalist, trade unionist, antiprivitisation, proimmigrant they most certainly are not. As for the benefit system, this is provided very reluctantly, whether to Irish or refugees. by the ruling class and is undermined at every possible opportunity most recently bertie's savage 16 Cuts.Its true their is conflict between the government and bureaucrats but what evidence do you that either give a crap about the rights of immigrants?


"But personal abuse is usually a sign of having no real argument."

This is true but as i said any open political messageboard on the planet, leftwing, rightwing or anything else will conain personal abuse galore. It has nothing to do with any one political viewpoint.

"On media, I stand by my original position, as I see it The State(Establishment)-run and Multi-National run both push a pro-multicult line.
In fact I’d say that the O’Reilly press is more than anyone out to promote the ‘coolness’ of multiculturalism. (When was the last time you saw issues I raised here discussed in any Mass-media organ?)"

While the media does generally acknowledgev that multiculturalism is a good thing, it also expresses support for viciously racist laws such as the immigration bill. This is a contradiction which probably comes from the fact that newspapers etc. are for profit companies that realise that appearing to be 'moderate' will allow them to sell papers to people of different ideologies and therefore make them more money.


"You may like to see yourself as an anti-establishment renegade but that to me is more to do with self-flattery than an objective or realistic assessment. The Establishment , a la Tony O 'Reilly etc, I reckon, really loves ya! (Apart from your occasionally disruptive, but easily contained behavior.) After all, aren’t you fighting their battle for them and suppressing the real opposition?"

Oh yeah, I'm sure that Tony O'Reilly loves what with my belief in the nationalisation of major industries including those controlled by him.
It is you who is fighting battle for them. They don't need to back down from their neo-liberal policies as long as they have people telling workers that immigration is cause of poverty, homelessness etc.

P.S.
Note how i haven't used any personal abuse at all and stop with the blanket accusation of lefties not being interested in real debate.

by patriot Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:18

1) Asylum seekers DO drive cars and ARE housed in owner-occupier estates. I see it everyday where I live.
2) I’d don’t object to welfare pre se just when foreigners are more favoured than natives. That’s unfair.
3) You may not agree with protectionism but many on the left do, and for good reason, as it’s an important weapon against gloabalisation-like I said immigration control is just another form of it.
4) Indymedia types fancy themselves as anti-establishment but many in the public service, at the highest level, are quite left-leaning too. They often get their way over incumbent governments.
5) Likewise much of the neocon agenda (of the multinational interest groups and media) has a strongly pro leftist agenda on social issues along with a neo-liberal economic agenda. Tony O’Reilly doesn’t fear your plans to nationalise him as you ain’t no real threat. As a pro-multiculturalist you are useful-for now.
6) The suggestion that we have a low level of immigration is ludicrous.(interestingly you mentioned race not I.) Since MAY 1 alone over 23,000 have entered from the new eastern E.U secession states. That along with the influx of ‘asylum seekers’ and Asian ‘students’ is making a considerable impact on this society. Interestingly it’s amazing of how much in agreement with the ’racist establishment’ on many of these liberal immigration policies. The vast majority of these migrants( nursing staff being a notable exception) compete in the lower skill level of the job market devaluing labour cost for the native workers. You couldn’t dream up a more anti-working class policy- and your establishment mates…whoops!..er..I mean opponents know it!

You debate has being interesting , polite and unconvinving, in fact you’ve only reaffirmed to me the naïve ideological blindness and denial of self evident truths of people on the ‘radiclal left’.
The majority will never believe you.
Over and out…for good.

by APP Mon Aug 30, 2004 03:38

I know Patriot says he's gone for good but included these arguments against his last post in case anyone finds themselves agreeing with them.

1) Asylum seekers DO drive cars and ARE housed in owner-occupier estates. I see it everyday where I live.

1. Some IMMIGRANTS do of course drive cars. But asylum seekers are not given cars by the state. Saying it over and over gain won't make it true. The fact that you saw some foreign people driving cars proves nothing. The housing asylum seekers are given if any is completely substandard. Even filipino nurses who are not asylum seekers or refugees were often found to be living in squalid, illegal conditions.

2) I’d don’t object to welfare pre se just when foreigners are more favoured than natives. That’s unfair.

2. Obviously that would be unfair, but it doesn't happen. Refugees recieve less welfare than irish people and that's saying sometihng. I'd be interested to see where you got your 'evidence' from.

3) You may not agree with protectionism but many on the left do, and for good reason, as it’s an important weapon against gloabalisation-like I said immigration control is just another form of it.

3. Yes, some on the left do support protectionism but there are very, very few things on which the left is in agreement. Globalisation as we're seeing it today is essentially protectionism by the western capitalists against the third world.

4) Indymedia types fancy themselves as anti-establishment but many in the public service, at the highest level, are quite left-leaning too. They often get their way over incumbent governments.

The left has influence over the establishment?!??!? How then would you explain the fact that the government has right wing policies on almost every issue imaginable.

5) Likewise much of the neocon agenda (of the multinational interest groups and media) has a strongly pro leftist agenda on social issues along with a neo-liberal economic agenda. Tony O’Reilly doesn’t fear your plans to nationalise him as you ain’t no real threat. As a pro-multiculturalist you are useful-for now.

5. You're saying that my belief in Nationalization isn't a threat to Tony O'Reilly because i am on the margins of politics. By that logic, how can my beliefs on immigration be an asset because as you've just stated the far left have little influnce on popular opinion. This makes no sense. Anyway, you ignore the fact that the trend of government and EU policy has been to introduce tighter immigration controls and laws. They are far closer to your side of the argument than mine.


6) The suggestion that we have a low level of immigration is ludicrous.(interestingly you mentioned race not I.) Since MAY 1 alone over 23,000 have entered from the new eastern E.U secession states. That along with the influx of ‘asylum seekers’ and Asian ‘students’ is making a considerable impact on this society. Interestingly it’s amazing of how much in agreement with the ’racist establishment’ on many of these liberal immigration policies. The vast majority of these migrants( nursing staff being a notable exception) compete in the lower skill level of the job market devaluing labour cost for the native workers. You couldn’t dream up a more anti-working class policy- and your establishment mates…whoops!..er..I mean opponents know it!


6. Ireland suffers from a shortage of workers and a low birth rate. Immigration is needed. Having said that the number of people coming in has been greatly exagerrated. Only 5.5% of the population are foreign born. The vast majority come from America or Western Europe. If the 23,000 figure and i'm not sure that it is then A) Most of those people are probably here temporarily and B) so fucking what thats not that big a figure on an island of 5 million. As for the fact that most immigrants work in low pay, unskilled jobs doesnt this serve my argument not yours? Employers get away with paying immigrants less because one many are illegal or banned and so can't complain and two because they are marginalised and discriminated against within society. Many of these migrant workers are paid wages which will allow them to buy substandard accomadation and enough food to live on and that's it! If employers were forced to pay immigrant workers better wages than any incentive they would have to hire them over the Irish would be completely eliminated. Isn't that obvious?

Its interesting how many of the arguments i made that you didn't or couldn't answer. Is this because you're wrong?

by patriot Mon Aug 30, 2004 08:56

.

If anything I’d say both our cases made are weak as they are based on conjecture and unbacked up assertions (although I still stand by all I stated).
My point remains that a flood of unskilled labour into the country is not good for the native working classes- based on the logic of supply and demand. For example, why should an employer increase the wage of a native worker if he can get a foreign worker(legal or not) willing to work for less? And doesn’t the very increase in the availability of un and semi-workers also act as downward pressure? If you can’t understand this then I’m sure the business classes could teach you as they understand this only too well.

My point about you being useful to big business is only insofar you are good at decrying ordinary people < like me here>, who express genuine concerns and grievances about how the State and Business sector has conspired to subordinate our interests even further.
And anyhow I doubt if you’d see yourself as irrelevant although when it comes to really adversely affecting the ‘fat cats’ that’s exactly what you are-a complete irrelevance!


However the main problem with your position is more profound. It is based on your philosophical outlook which refuses to distinguish between National and Non-National. People like the indymedia crowd here refuse to acknowledge the rights of Nationality (you effectively de-naturalise somebody when you equate them with foreigners in their own country, but the foreigners still retain their dignity and if anything, in fact, they’re imbued with the privileges of dual Nationality!).
In another sense this is yet another similarity you [unwittingly] share with the globalists and neo-cons who see the world as purely producers/consumers, regardless of identity.

Also what is this but a biased view against Nationals in favour of immigrants? This being the case why then should any self-respecting, Patriotic, working-class person not have anything but contempt for you and your position? and IME they do!!

by TT Mon Aug 30, 2004 14:34

The people who complain the most about immigrants "taking our jobs" are generally the same people who would never back you up if you protested about working conditions or if you went on strike. In fact, many of them are of the type of mentality which inclines them to side with the bosses.

Irish workers and low-paid immigrants should be making common cause to oppose low pay and lousy working conditions.
We should never allow ourselves to be divided and set against each other. That only helps the boss class.