Animal Rights activists assaulted at Circus Demo.

by Karma Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:23

Yacki was beating the elephant with a wooden plank at the time it attacked him.

by Karma Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:51

Paul Dineen, also known as Yacki, was attacked by a Circus New York elephant last weekend and is in Intensive Care in hospital in Waterford. This is the same guy who was arrested for attacking peaceful protestors at Circus Vegas in Blanchardstown last year. Yacki jumped bail twice before the Gardai arrested him in Bray for another offence.
Did he get his inspiration from Michael Courtney's who uses a garden rake to control his elephants? Guess what they say is true......an elephant never forgets!
This is proof that animals don't belong in circuses.

by SABWATCH Tue Jul 20, 2004 17:31

Of that Dungarven letter.
Bernie&Co made a few quid of that one,and might try it on Indymedia.ie[LOL]
There was somthing very fishy about that letter.
It was anymous,yet the paper claimed to have witheld the name and address of the writer.Why didnt they follow this up and summons the writer as a material witness in the libel case?Or just follow it up as investigative journalism?
There is factual matter in there,yet no proof thereof.[day,dates.times,etc].If there was, the Editor should be fired for incompetance for not leaving it in or for following it up.Or just dumping the letter.
One would wonder did the antis plant this story themselves to get some publicity??
Coincidence that the Waterford Hunt sabs contact address is in Dungarven as well?

by dube Tue Jul 20, 2004 02:03

you gotta have more then that

lost people caused global warming

response to the letter, ie not an article , not even attempt at balance...

http://www.huntsabsireland.org/press.htm
i can't believe that paper ever printed such a letter...

meanwhile back with giving a good reason animals should be still kept in circus'

by vegas staff - circus vegas Mon Jul 19, 2004 23:54

"and for balance

did a quick search around the net and coudln't find any reports or anything putting forward the pro -circus case"

try this

http://animalrights.net/

by vegas staff - circus vegas Mon Jul 19, 2004 23:25

taken from the dungarvan observer newspaper

The International Fund for Animal Welfare is a multi-million dollar organisation based in Canada. In recent years it has been hi-jacked by Animal Rights Extremists who pay themselves large salaries and spend millions on Political Campaigns,ignoring real Animal Welfare. In many Western Countries it has set up sat llite organisations.

The L.A.C.S., Hunt Saboteurs, Anti-Vivisectionists, Protests against Fur Farming,Compassion in World-Farming etc,; which often employ rough tactics;club-wielding thugs, letter-bombs, ire-bombs, blackmail threats; damage to vehicles and attacks on persons.

In the U.K., they have set up a very powerful organisation in Parliament. Tony Banks, M.P. and Eric Morley M.P. have been closely associate with I.F.A.W. for years, and provided Tony Blair with £1,400,000 to push a Bill
banning hunting with dogs through Parliament. Cherie Blair's half-sister is employed by I.F.A.W. and many other M.P.s are in receipt of financial help. Coming up to the 1997 election £5,000,000 was spent in two years on advertising the "Cruelty of hunting." Tony Bank's sister has been the Financial Director for I.F.A.W. in the UK.

In Ireland, John Fitzgerald, John Tierney and Bernie Wright are able to pay "protestors" recruited from dole queues and universities, €70 a day and transport. One wonders where all this money come from? Four years ago they
imported a band of English saboteurs to disrupt the Waterford Hunt. They turned up a Hunt Meet wearing balaclava masks, and arrived with clubs and iron bars. Fortunately, the Gardai were alerted and disarmed and contained them for the day. One troublemaker was arrested, later released on €100 bail, paid by John Tierney.
Of course, he jumped bail and hasn't been seen since. These people ignore all the evidence that hunting is the most merciful form of control of wildlife populations. It is nature's way of culling the wildlife population. The adrenaline factor ensures that the prey animal suffers no pain in the chase or quick death. The fox is never wounded, he is killed quickly or escapes unharmed, with a 10/1 chance of escape. The old, weak and the sick
are eliminated, the strong survive to breed.

Other forms of control kill indiscrimately, often wounding and with painful deaths. Fox-hunting is organised, maintaining strict rules with a close season and monitoring against all unfair practices.

Name with Editor

by vegas staff - circus vegas Mon Jul 19, 2004 22:34

i presume that part of the antis beliefs is to be enviomently friendy and such help all animals.
when we where in fairyhouse they removed and probably destroyed about 50 or our directional arrows and posters all made from plastic which we then have to replace with more plastic signs instead of recycling our old ones. BTW those signs cost 15cent each so those 50 signs set the show back €7.50 (how will we ever recover). anyway with the arrows removed anyone who wants to come and see the show has trouble finding it and ends up driving around in circles for about half an hour until they find us, thus burning more fuel, now muliply that by 300 the average amount of cars in our car park every night and thats 150 hours now multply that by 10 the number of shows a week and thats 1500 hours of fuel a week plus the extra fuel used to make more signs and drive around putting them back up and all the tyre wear (new tyres means more rubber means more fuel) and you are looking at about 2000 hours of fuel a week wasted. one of our generaters will use about 1/2 a liter of fuel an hour so that a 1000 litres a week and 52000 litres wasted in a year and thats 5200 oil drums full every year. now multply that by the number of circuses in ireland which is 8 and you get 41600 drums a year just in this country alone.
now whos going to tell them the main cause of global warming.
keep it up guys and you will have Greenpeace to contend with.

by mark Mon Jul 19, 2004 19:46 roadsign1 at yahoo dot com

Hiya if you would like to email me personally I will talk to you through private mail, many thanks

by Santini Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:02

For Bernie or one of her comrades:

Can you explain to us why, in the company of gardai, when you allege that you saw Michael Courtney (or whoever it was) hitting the elephant with a rake, did you or your members not there and then make a complaint of cruelty? Presumably the gardai also witnessed this? It seems incomprehensible that your people wouldn't have taken this course, either at the time or subsequently. After all, it can't be very often that you'd see something like that happen in front of you, surely it was like manna from heaven? And you did nothing? Enlighten us please.

by Santini Mon Jul 19, 2004 00:46

Hi Mark, I've just discovered this thread. I'm curious to know who you are, you didn't publish a surname. Can you tell us which circus you used to own? I am racking my brains to remember a Mark who owned a circus in UK and can't think of one! Can you ley us know?

by dube Mon Jul 19, 2004 00:38

this info still doesn't negate that the people could protest and cause some relative offence to patrons because they believe that no animal should be held captive (no matter how well treated in captivity)


and i just re-read the vegas staff post and apart from giving another version of the events of that night, which one i belleve i dunno, a mix of the two doesn't rule out any reasons why people shouldn't protest animal circuses

by Mark Sun Jul 18, 2004 23:11

Yes I do know about the CAPS photos. Perhaps you should look at the WORLDS FAIR website and look for the story concerning the horses and the terrible damage that was caused by these animal rite protestors. You can look at the website for THE GREAT BRITISH CIRCUS again that will give you some information on how animals are looked after and cared for in the circus. Incidently, the photos you refered to formed part of a newspaper article in Mirror last year, when they came out I emailed CAPS giving them information on the benefits of animals in circus and details on how animals are cared for and to this day I have not had a response.
There is also a group called WAGS which is the working animals group which was set up to provide information on working animals.
Again all I can say is that those elephants spend most of the time free exercising and are in excellent condition and are very happy animals.

by dube Sun Jul 18, 2004 20:42

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65553&

well it seems they have a problem with all circus no matter how well the animals are looked after...?

and found this http://www.captiveanimals.org/circuses/irish.htm

which has stuff like this

Circus Vegas - three African elephants (two young males and a female) chained by their legs in a small tent where members of the public, including children, had unsupervised access and could touch and feed them.

and for balance

did a quick search around the net and coudln't find any reports or anything putting forward the pro -circus case

by Michael R. Donohoe - The Society for Undivided Duality Sun Jul 18, 2004 00:56 kaneslatranz at yahoo dot com 406 Arno SE, Apt. B Albuq. NM 87102 US of A 1-505-319-3055

Ah, what's so hard ta believe about it, ya gobs?! Elephants are intelligent , sensitive social creatures who dinna appreciate life in the big city any more than muh-self. Neither bein' beaten, which they are, by ignorant circus heathens.

It's *real* awright! Ay, laddies, it's real...

by Mark Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:16

hi, just to confirm that Micheal Courtney had been in hospital and that he was back that day without many people knowing about it and that Vegas is a large show with a lot of staff, all of what is said above is true, including the fire to the horse tent, by the way if you want a link to that story and damage and suffering it caused to the animals you can look it up on WORLDS FAIR webiste as the story is archived there, otherwise as I said email me your address My name and email is above and I will send you out the information so you can see.

by circus vegas staff - circus vegas Sat Jul 17, 2004 05:05

well maybe micheal was there but he must have returned earlier that day without my knowing. with about 130 staff members its hard to keep track of everyone. But he was ill and in no fit state to be hit elephants for no reason

by circus vegas staff - CIRCUS VEGAS Sat Jul 17, 2004 04:59

altough i dont know mark all that well i do know him he was present that night because he was visiting friends at the show. he did used to own a circus in england. and if you want proof about the camel story you can find the picture on the hastely photocopied leaflets these antis hand out at circus gates.
i also feel the need to point out that circus vegas does not have any camels this year.
for those of who would like to know here is a list of all animals on the show this year (including childrens pets)
Performing animals=
2 elephants 8 horses and 6 poodles.
pets= 5 dogs 3 ponies 1 rabbit 6 birds 2 hamsters 8 small cats and a goat.
your average size farm would have more animals than that. the elephants are free to roam around the circus site most of the day and many times have wondered of the site causing amazment and amusment to any locals who find elephants in their garden they always return back to the site when called even by staff members who have no experence training animals. BTW elephants are considered as domestic animals by law not as wild animals as stated in the antis propaganda. many times antis have been invited to come in and view the animals but they always refuse prefering instead to make up the facts.
i almost forgot my gerbal scratcy add one gerbal to the above list.

by bilocator Sat Jul 17, 2004 04:16

"just to let you all know that it was impossible for Michael Courtney to be seen hitting an elephant with a rake because at the time of the demo by these so called animal rights activists he was sitting in the tent of the circus with some friends over from the UK. Please get your facts straight."


"Micheal courtney was no where on the ground because he is ill and was in mullingar hospital at the time so that rake he was using to hit elephants with must have been about 70 miles in length"


??????

by circus vegas staff - CIRCUS VEGAS Sat Jul 17, 2004 03:40

yes i work in circus vegas and i have just finished reading all the lies on this page. first let me thank anyone here who has defended our side. second i am amazed at the bare faced lies these so called animal lovers are coming up with. on the night in question there was only about 7 antis (circus slang for these morons) all of them in their late teens or older, they shouted abuse at anyone entering the ground and spat at a number of people and their children and by the way the man who threw the first punch and hit the so called gang leader (the bald guy with the beard and a nose full of studs) was a member of the public whos wife and child where verbally abused and spat at while he was over buying their tickets, circus staff then had to step in to prevent him from being beaten up in front of his family, which was when things kicked off. it was the circus staff who called the police before any of this even started. the guy who was arested was a local guy who helps us out every year when we get to dublin and he was arested for refusing to give his name to the attending gardi and not for "criminal damage", as stated by the antis on today fm and in many papers. Micheal courtney was no where on the ground because he is ill and was in mullingar hospital at the time so that rake he was using to hit elephants with must have been about 70 miles in length. i have checked with guinness and there is no record of such a rake in exsistance.
apparently all of us who work with the circus are to stupid to get "real" jobs. well most of us can speak multiple languages and i myself am a trained architect i choose to work here because its a better lifestyle than sitting in a stuffy office, the only office these antis ever saw was the dole office and thats only if they can remember how to spell their own names.
Let me tell you something about these "animal lovers" about 5 years ago they set fire to one of our stable tents with eight horses still inside, the tent was made of a plastic material which melted an dripped onto the horses inside seven of the horses survived 3 with major burns but one had a large part of the tent melted to his head still on fire, that horse survived for two hours with no skin on his face, head or neck until the vet arrived to put him asleep.
off the "animal lovers" responsible one was jailed for 11 years. yet somehow i cant find any of them boasting about that little victory.
if you people havent got the guts to stand up and face your crimes then a least have the guts to tell the truth about yourselfs and us. you are the wasters and law breakers while we are honest hard working people minding our own bussiness doing shows for charities (not just our show but all circuses) and just trying to get along with our lives.
if we are the animal haters then you are the animals, because none of our animals would act the way you lot did on wed the 8th.
GO GET A REAL LIFE AND STOP USING ANIMALS AS AN EXCUSE FOR VANDALISM AND MURDER!!!!

by dube Fri Jul 16, 2004 18:56

thanks for our persistance mark, i finally et where you're coming from...

i reckon that your points about afar protesting at the wrong circus deserve some response from afar...

by mark Thu Jul 15, 2004 19:03

guys email me your address I will then send you press clipings and videos of evidence if you do not believe me I cannot be fairer than that, Yes I feel victamised when I read some of the comments on circus people because we are not thick, not stupid as one of the comments above reads, I am educated person, I have a BA HONS degree and also a Masters so not bad for a thick circus boy is it. I will speak to some of my collegues tonite and get together a little pack of information for you, give me your address and I will then send it to you, There is nothing wrong with picketing if you are picketing the right circus, and they were not that nite, circus vegas is not cruel to its elephants, I will send you a photograph of the elephant transporter, its state of the art, they are cared for 24/7 as I said, Do you know how upset the people that look after these animals were when all this happened ? What it is like to be branded cruel ?? People protesting about that show no nothing about circus life, had these people seen the show, where was there evidence of such cruelty, why don't they travel out to Africa and India and see the way these elephants are treated out there ? I have, I have seen cruelty to elephants first hand in these countries. What right has someone to put on this site that they saw an elephant being hit with a rake ? for one where the elephants exercise area was on that site was no where near where they were protesting, so unless they had superhuman vision they would not have been able to have seen it from the show front, as I said protest if they have evidence. ANd why not work with circus and circus people, surley that would be the best way forward for all of us, Protesting like this will only alienate us all. That is the best way forward for us all in my opinion.

by dube Thu Jul 15, 2004 17:34

mark you obviously do have long experience working with cricus' i dont think anybody doubts that but....

nothing I have said is unsubstantiated,


"ie : taking a camel from its corner of a field where it was happily exercising and eating and tieing it up against a barbed wire fence and then taking pictures of it and circulating them proclaiming cruel circus ? "

"you lot are underehand and guys the truth is those elephants are well cared for"

you say don't tar with one brush then you say this...

any newspapers reports about this or online which substating that something _like_ this happened...?
i know you can't have sources for what you saw, but a case like this would have been reporte about...

ps in my previous comment i mentioend how imidation is all relative?

I was there and I saw the disgusting way these protestors behaved, intimidating families coming to the show and upsetting small children

which this does not account for, and while refering to intimidation you never refer to the alleged assaults?

i dont' necesarily believee the hitting with the rake story either but theres nothing to totally discount that someone didn't do it either...

by Yossarian Thu Jul 15, 2004 17:29

Mark, you are acting as if you're being victimised. I am merely asking if you can back up any of your statements. You then repeat your statements as if that lends credence to your original comments. We have already clarified that you have the right to express your opinion in this forum, in fact, no one even suggested that you didn't.
I said "presumably.." because I presume that people wouldn't be bothered handing out leaflets about animal cruelty outside a circus if they didn't have reason to believe that it was occurring. I cannot clarify because I don't know for sure, hence the word presume. I do not state categorically that which I do not know.

by mark Thu Jul 15, 2004 15:07

in answer to your comments, nothing I have said is unsubstantiated, I would be mad to put things on here that were otherwise untrue. It is my point of view from what I saw and also from my experiences, I did own a circus if you chose not believe that that is your problem not mine, I have nothing to prove to you neither to I have anything to justify.; No elephant was hit that evening by a rake, again that is the truth. The camel incident did happen, believe it or not, again that is the truth. The elephants are not kept in cages, they are usually out in a field all day, exercising for4 your information, and their housing at night and animal transportation is exceptional. No hook or bull hook is used, in the circus ring the animals repsond to voice commands, no hook or stick is used. When they are moved from site to site, it is done quickly as possible they are then unloaded and allowed to excericise, they are not retrained. You said 'presumably some of the protestors did have some inkling as to how the animals are cared for' please can you add some further clarification to this : what inkling ? what concerns or issues do they have ?
I can only repeat what I have said already, sorry if you do not like it but I have never seen or witnessed anything other than the highest standards of animal care on that show, I know that they are cared for and have witnessed it first hand. I put my comments on here because I have a right to express my opinion, especially when people that I know are being accused of being cruel or unkind to animals. They are not cruel and they are not unkind. How up to date are some of the comments concerning the circus, for example above someone says that there are sealions on the show, There are no sealions on this years show, so It would seem from that statement that the people protesting about the show had not even seen a performance, there are no wild animal acts on Circus Vegas. What I have spoken about I have seen, believe me if I thought for one moment that any animal was in danger I would be the first person standing in line top condemn any act of cruelty, but I have not witnessed any cruelty on this show, I have only seen some very happy animals who are loved and cared for and looked after to the highest standards. Shoot me down in flames if you want to, accuse me of repeating myself, if you want to thats the truth.

by Bozo Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:46

Danger in Vegas!
14 Jul 2004
A GROUP of animal rights activists were assaulted as they attempted to hand out leaflets outside Circus Vegas in Castleknock last Wednesday. The circus had just opened for a one week run in the grounds of Castleknock College when a group of activists from the Alliance For Animal Rights (AFAR) arrived at 7pm and began to distribute leaflets outside the circus in an attempt to dissuade people from attending the show.
AFAR activist Ciaran Long, who sustained facial injuries in the incident, said that he was basically assaulted about the face and had his glasses broken for peacefully protesting for animal rights.
Activist Bernie Wright said a number of men carried out the assault and that they took up position close to the activists and began to verbally abuse them.
"They started to call us 'queers' and lesbians and one of them then approached one of our group and lashed out with his fists at him he suffered heavy bleeding and facial injuries which needed stitching in James Connolly Memorial Hospital later," she said.
"After this, all hell broke loose and the rest of the group went for us and grabbed a video camera that we had with us. I myself was punched and kicked and received cuts to my hands. One of our group then managed to break away and phoned the ambulance and the gardai."
According to Ms Wright, the ambulance arrived quickly but the Gardai took longer to arrive.
"The ambulance men wanted us to go to hospital there and then, but we insisted that we waited for the Gardai to arrive," she said.
Gardai later removed parts of the broken video camera and looked at evidence from another video camera held by one of the activists, according to Ms Wright.
Six members of AFAR later attended James Connolly Memorial Hospital, Blanchardstown where they were treated for their injuries and medical reports filed.
A spokesperson for the Garda Press Office confirmed that Gardai from Blanchardstown were called to an incident at Circus Vegas on Wednesday, July 7. They arrested one individual who was later charged with criminal damage.
A spokesperson for Circus Vegas told The Northside People that no circus personnel were responsible for assaulting the activists and said the activists had actually damaged circus promotional property.
A spokesperson for Castleknock College - in whose grounds the circus is situated - said he wasn't aware of the incident but confirmed that the circus was due to perform at the Castleknock site for one week and had previously visited the site last year.

by Yossarian Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:37

Thanks for repeating your unsubstantiated allegations (you owned a circus, you were there on the night, you saw how 'these' people behaved, no elephant was hit with a rake, the camel incident did happen, you believe in caring for animals, you get much joy from animals {yikes}, elephants are not kept in cages {where are they kept, how are they transported, what other animals are there, where are they kept????}, etc, etc, etc.

I must admit to being a tad skeptical when you first made these points and I did ask some questions which I hoped would clarify the situation. You have repeated the same points almost verbatim without responding to a single thing I said, adding no further evidence but now after seeing it all a second time I am more inclined to believe you. Perhaps you could repeat yourself again and I will probably be convinced. Oh, you're a smart one!

PS mark said: "you cannot condem Circus Vegas and the elephants that are there unless you know how they are cared for "

I couldn't agree more. Presumably some of the protesters did have some inkling as to how the animals are cared for. Perhaps there are different understandings of the word care floating around?

by dube Wed Jul 14, 2004 20:50

"Circus is caring, I admit that there have been problems in the past but you cannot label everyone or tar everyone with the same brush"

you see you tell us not to tar all circus's with the same brush and then you say

"taking a camel from its corner of a field where it was happily exercising and eating and tieing it up against a barbed wire fence and then taking pictures of it and circulating them proclaiming cruel circus ? you lot are underehand "

"you lot are underhand"

so again that undermines alot of what you say?

intimidation of children, think of the children

i remember complaints about anti-war protests on st paddies day last year cos st patricks paradde is for schildren (which it basically is), this on march 17 the week bombing started in iraq... i would say they justified on rocking the boat a bit wouldnt you?

relative intimidation: you did say the protestirs wer intimidating shouting etc but i'd be more worried by the assault that _nobody_ is denying happened?

by mark Wed Jul 14, 2004 17:55

as I said I owned a circus so that was my job, and that is true, I am adding what I saw that night and the comments that I put in there are true, for your inofrmation elephants are not kept in cages, and to reiterate again I was there on the night in question and I saw how these people behaved, as I said earlier the comment that an elephant was hit by a rake was totally untrue, also the camel incident did happen, believe it or not I would have no reason to lie about any of it. I believe in circus and I believe in the people that work so hard to keep it on the road, I also believe in caring for the wellbeing of animals, I have got much joy from my association with them, and have learned so much. The care that these elephants have is superb and it is unfair for people to talk about something that they do not know about, you cannot condem Circus Vegas and the elephants that are there unless you know how they are cared for and I have seen first hand the care they recieve, as I said it is 24/7, they are wonderful animals and the care they get is second to none.

by Yossarian Wed Jul 14, 2004 14:55

mark: "I wish that you lot would just grow up... you see proves the point that no matter what you say people like you will never believe it"

Emmm, no, it is not childish to seek to substantiate comments about an incident from an anonymous source, particularly when those comments could be construed as suspicious (you have intimate knowledge of working with animals, you happened to be there on the night, you don't work for Circus Vegas) in the circumstances. People will believe you if you produce a shred of evidence to substantiate your remarks. So far, the substantiated facts are that there was a disturbance at the circus on the evening in question, an ambulance attended the incident and one of the circus workers was arrested.

mark: "I owned a circus for some time and have also been in entertainment all my life is that enough info for you, so I know the good from the bad thanks very much, To answer yes they were intimidating, believe it its true"

If one accepts (and one would be perfectly entitled to equally assume this is bullshit) that you owned a circus and have been in entertainment all your life, you have still not explained how you spent so much time with these elephants without being an employee. it also has no bearing on why we should believe that the protesters were intimidating because you say we should believe you. what were they doing that was intimidating?

With regard to your allegations about the undercover sabateur, if that happened, I would condemn such actions. Where and when did this incident occur? Any links or newspaper articles to back it up? In any case you appear to be suggesting that the people who were protesting against the circus on the night in question are at the same game (guilty by association).

mark: "you lot are underehand and guys the truth is those elephants are well cared for, end of story"

Please submit evidence of underhandedness or at least the form. The "end of story" might be appropriate after a detailed argfuement backed up by evidence (kinda like QED), here it appears to be more like I have no backup so I'm going to resort to rhetorical bullying.

mark: "and just as you voice your opinion so I can voice mine, only mine is the truth from spending a lifetime around animals yours is what you know from propoganda from so called animal rights protestors"

No one denies your right to voice your opinion, at least on indymedia. Do not assume to know the sources that form my opinion. I am not so much interested in whether circus animals are abused or not, I am interested in verifying your statements.

Now, for my own thoughts. Regardless of how you treat them, keeping animals locked up in relatively small cages and getting them to perform tricks for our edification does not apear to me to be in the animals best interests. Of course, you know best, don't you, mark?

ps what was your job when you worked in the circus?

by mark Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:01

I wish that you lot would just grow up... you see proves the point that no matter what you say people like you will never believe it, I owned a circus for some time and have also been in entertainment all my life is that enough info for you, so I know the good from the bad thanks very much, To answer yes they were intimidating, believe it its true. Also, can you tell me what you are getting out of this persecution ? For example : if all of you lot so love animals and only want the best for them etc as you proclaim so loudly, why would one of your lot get a job on a circus to work undercover and when you get there because their was no cruelty decide to create some of your own ? ie : taking a camel from its corner of a field where it was happily exercising and eating and tieing it up against a barbed wire fence and then taking pictures of it and circulating them proclaiming cruel circus ? you lot are underehand and guys the truth is those elephants are well cared for, end of story, there is no cruelty on Circus Vegas and just as you voice your opinion so I can voice mine, only mine is the truth from spending a lifetime around animals yours is what you know from propoganda from so called animal rights protestors, thats the difference.

by sumdumguy - .. Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:42

you'd be a lot more believable Mark if you backed up what you're saying. Now i'm not saying you're lying but just repeating the same statement over and over again is hardly an argument.
so here's a few questions:

If you're not an employee (and i'm not saying you are) can you explain how you spend so much time with the animals in this particular circus?

How exactly were the protesters being intimidating? Scary chants? terryifing leaflets? hofrrific children?

by Yossarian Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:37

Mark, you say that you are not an employee of Circus Vegas but you also say that you have spent a lot of time with these elephants (and how much you learnt from them, how caring the circus people are to them, etc, etc). How does one get so up close and personal with circus elephants if one isn't a member of the circus?

by mark Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:56

in answer to your comments I can only speak for what I have seen, I have been lucky to learn a lot from some extremly good people who have looked after their animals and are not cruel to their animals, my point is that there are two versions or sides to the story, I was there, I saw what happened, I have also spent numerous hours with these elephahnts and reiterate again that they are in excellent condition and the standard of care on that show is second to none, I am sorry that you don't believe me but thats the truth, and on the subject of circus I have been involoved with it all my life and I know for a fact what these protestors did last week was disgusting, they set out to disrupt and intimidate people and that should not be allowed, Circus is caring, I admit that there have been problems in the past but you cannot label everyone or tar everyone with the same brush, that is not fair, hours and hours and hours are spent looking and caring for the animals and I reiterate Circus Vegas is not cruel to its elephants, they are wonderful animals and a joy to be with, I cannot begin to tell you the pleasure and joy I have had in their company and what I have learned from them I will never forget, Sorry if you don't like the truth, but you cannot tar all of us with the same brush and just as you have your opinions so do I, mine are based on fact what I have seen, many of yours are not, ie: an elephant being hit by a rake by Micheal Courtney, thats is just an outrite lie, you have no right to say that about the man as he did not and would not do it. Circus Vegas is not cruel, get your facts straight.

by dube Wed Jul 14, 2004 03:49

so marks says.... thats direct quote.. but there have been many many cases of animal cruelty at circuses and at circuses which arn't run at all properly (not saying vegas isnt relatively), i think people judge what someone is saying on one subject on another esp witihin the same posting, now saying such a broad statement as circus is not cruel doesn't encouage us to believe him on his other accusations...

if his posting were bit more balanced we'd believe em

by lone gunman Tue Jul 13, 2004 23:34

to any story.wether Mark is/was an employed by the circus is irrevelant.No doubt if somone was to investigate this incident properly and unbiasedly you would find the animal nazis were instigating this farcas.It is their tactics,indimidation and violence.
Second tactic is when no one belives them when they claim they were "attacked"[Seems to happen to them regulary,wonder why?] They concoct somthing else to take the heat off themselves.
When this fails they resort to name calling and childish insults.
To answer dumb&dumber Indymedia is supposedly a free comment forum.Therefor differing opinions should be allowed here.Maybe Indymedia should put up a health warning;

CAUTION ! !!!
some opinions expressed here may be hazourdous to your belifs.Opinions expressed may be right wing,realistic,real world,pro USA&Bush,pro capitalist.
They may invoke extreme apolexy in left wing anarcho,capitalist ,corporate American hating , eco friendly,peaceniks.
To counter this;
breathe deeply,say Ommmmm a lot ,hug your favourite tree,or rant&rave here to your hearts content.Or develop a sense of humour.

FACTS are
All the huntsabs,anti circus protestors, mink and chicken liberators and other such munchkins are part and parcel of a minority group of about 20 people.
All the same faces show up at all the different protests,usually with a rent a mob,of the more nastier kind .

by Mark Tue Jul 13, 2004 19:31

No my experiences are not highly unrealistic, thank you they are my experiences whether you lot like them or not thats the truth. And no I am not an employee of the circus Vegas. I was there and I saw the disgusting way these protestors behaved, intimidating families coming to the show and upsetting small children. Their behaviour was disgusting. And do not say that my experiences are unrealistic, I know an awful lot about animals and especially animals in circus and I say again, Those animals are looked after 24 hours and 7 days a week and the standard of care on that show is indeed second to none, thats the truth whether you like me saying that or not.

by Chekov Tue Jul 13, 2004 18:59

Mark, would you perchance happen to be employed by the circus? Your cleaner than clean (and wildly unrealistic) depiction of the attitude to animals in the circus and your unsubstantiated allegations against the protestors make me think that you have some agenda. Oh go on, you're the clown aren't you?

by sumdumguy - ... Tue Jul 13, 2004 18:59

mark, you say you spend a lot of time with the elephants, and seem to know a lot about their care. Do you work there or something?

by mark Tue Jul 13, 2004 18:56

Well all I am going to say is that I was there and I thought the way that the protestors tried to intimidate people coming to the circus was disgusting, it was not a silent protest, the behaviour from them was horrible. I have spent many hours with these Elephants and all I can say truthfully is that I have never ever seen them mistreated in any way. They are in excellent condition and are cared for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They have all the exercise that they can wish for, and I have never ever witnessed any cruelty towards them at all. And, contary to what was said above, Michael Courtney did not hit an elephant with a rake. The people who should question their behaviour are the protestors who intimidate and badger inocent people, circus is not cruel, and circus vegas is not cruel. Those elephants are in supberb condition and the standards of care on that show are unbelievable,whether you animal rights protestors believe it on not.

by machinegunkelly Tue Jul 13, 2004 15:01

Lone gunman is a persistent abuser on indymedia, so he is in no position to criticise anyone else. Don't take him too seriously.

by dumb and dumber Tue Jul 13, 2004 14:44 The 'Batter

It's bizarre how some very dump ppl, lurkers, on this site, find it so hard to believe that circus's are cruel to animals (do you also still believe in Santa and that Saddam had WMD?!) and secondly, that some people might have jobs and still take the time to give a shit about doing something about this. If you don't care about it, grand, but why hang around these posts, baiting people. I know for a fact the events up at the start of this thread happened cos I believe one of the involved person's word so fair play to her for reporting it. It's sad that the rest of the discussion descended into silly bitching from very obviously very stupid people.

-D

by M jAMES Mon Jul 12, 2004 22:51 roadsign1 at yahoo dot com

just to let you all know that it was impossible for Michael Courtney to be seen hitting an elephant with a rake because at the time of the demo by these so called animal rights activists he was sitting in the tent of the circus with some friends over from the UK. Please get your facts straight.

by Ringmaster Mon Jul 12, 2004 13:02

Maybe Kim G can possibly tell us how you do move a ponderous pachyderm?It weighs about four tons,cant exactly put it on a leash.
the Indians who use elefants as work animals somtimes use a spike to get their elefant to behave or work to their commands.Same as people use spurs to control a horse.

by Kim G Sat Jul 10, 2004 23:22

Animals being assaulted in circuses is nothing new, we all remember Mary Chipperfield yes? We all remember the incident when the elephant was hit with an iron bar (see animal defenders international website for full story and pics, see also circuses.com). Rakes are used to dig gardens and are made of iron. Perhaps Mr Courtney was so frustrated at the time after having a demo and assaults outside his circus that the elephant was an easy target and form of frustration relief. Maybe he was dying to go and hit one of the activists with the rake and had to settle for the elephant instead. Scatching? These people earn their living from the misery and suffering they inflict on animals, I'm sure he'd have been very concerned about the elephant having an itch. Do you suppose the elephant told him it was itchy? Or perhaps he's psychic?

by Lone gunman Sat Jul 10, 2004 14:14

If that is your real name.Since you started with insults I would like to point out that then you are already losing your arguement.[did study some psychology in my time].
Let me give YOU a free analyisis of you.
You are childish and immature,by starting off an arguement by insulting [or trying to] your opponent.

You are gullibale and selective in your support of a group that is associated with using terrorist tactics,intimadation,and violence.Ask your glorious leader,you know who about some of the more nastier chacters she associates with or t ried to get into Ireland.

Do you actually KNOW how many groups she has started and are interlinked with?
BTW you gave away how many people were at the demo 6 adults and two kids,and really give a toss about animal rights.You repersent your ownselves not the general pouplation.

You or the parents of the children were extremly stupid in bringing them on a demo that you thought was going to be peaceful.What you sow so shall you reap.Seeing that ALF and other animal nazis make a habit of attacking kids on hunts or fieldsport events.You got the favour returned.Although I will take your account with a LARGE pinch of salt.Would really like to hear what the other side of the story is.Good propaganda to always be the put upon.
"Help help im being oppressed!! Come see the violence inherent in the system!"etc

You are Nazis in your thoughts ,actions and methods.There is NO compromise with any of you people.Animals good,people Baaaaddd.
Vegans good, meat eaters Baaaddd
What do I belive in?To lead my life without being botherd by people who want me to stop hunting ,fishing,eating my steaks,train my dogs,take my kids to a circus,and putting unsentient beings on par with sentient beings.[For your info it would be very hard to get a animal to do anything by fear.]
So already it shows your lots ignorance of even animal training.

If you expect to stop me doing anything and millions of others of thes things and you are willing to use violence and propaganda to acheive it.Expect retaliation.Damage my property,I will destroy yours.Beat up one of mine ,expect five of yours and their friends and families to get the return.
[Yabba dabba doo,any animal rights/hunt sab nazi will do.]

Do you REALLY want to go down that road? this is mostly the worlds problem,intolerance of others belifs and ideals.

To reply to your old cliche about society and animals.It is also a measure of a society as to how well it tolerates ideals ,belifs and customs that might be repugnent to some.

Try putting yourself in the other persons shoes and trying to see their point.if you cant then you are just a bigoted arrogant ignorant fool.

by Lynn Sat Jul 10, 2004 01:18

"Lone Gunman" what an appelation, it speaks volumes I'd love a psychoanalysis of that alone! But wait -- theres so much more. You seem like a sad individual with a huge chip on both your shoulders. Why would you insist on referring to a small group of people --(3 men, 6 women and 2 children)who care for the plight of animals and who were brave enough to be out there in broad daylight standing up for a cause they believe in "Nazis"?? What do you believe in ? What do you do to improve anyones lot ? What did you do Wednesday evening or any evening? --something great I'm sure! I'm afraid that you are just one of lifes little begrudgers with nothing better to do with your time than to send hateful messages anonymously.

You think its great that 2 children with the courage of their convictions who really wished to be there with their homemade posters were set upon by grown men ---circus thugs! Shame on you! Contrary to your furtive immagination there was nothing clandestine going on or no sinister plots being hatched.It was a peaceful legal protest by ordinary people.

By the way "Lone(ly) Gunman" a society's advancement may be judged on how it treats and cares for its animals. It"s a pity that people like you hold us all back. You obviously haven't even begun to care for your fellow man yet! Hopefully someday you'll grow a heart or at the very least develop a positive proactive hobby. I wish you well.
From someone who was actually there.

by kenneth Fri Jul 09, 2004 15:43

Killing bulls in a bull ring is definately questionable. But are you saying the bull run should banned as well?

Would that not be impinging on another people's culture?

Wonder what the Basque indymedia would think of that.

by Lone Gunman Fri Jul 09, 2004 13:39

I am not that fellow.I said that before to you Animal Nazis.Although I must congratulate whoever he is.He seems to be pissing you animal nazis off bigtime.So he must be doing somthing right. If you know so much about him,why dont you sent the ALf around??or are you a bunch of pants shitting little firebomb laying bullies who need to creep around in the dark and a fair fight is beating up little ten year old girls?
How many are there of you now hanging around with the bold Bernie of the many groups?Is it ten or twelve?BTW even dumber of you to post a hotmail account.that can be tracked now to the last machine using it.As well as your addressThreatning somone with a terrorist organisation on an open forum. Well,I never credited you lot with great intilligence.

Well at least we havent got any of ours heading off to jail,like John Tierney[hopefully]

by Alan O Reilly - none Fri Jul 09, 2004 01:53 -alanoreilly at hotmail dot com Charleville Co Cork

Would Sean Mc Govern, aka lone Gunman take the needle off the record.What a wanker. Leave the animal defenders alone, shooting is already being hit with pheasant releases, and now Des Crofton resigning from the council!!!
the ALF are watching you lot., what a sick bunch you shooters are!

by Lone Gunman Thu Jul 08, 2004 22:21

Stay out of the sauna.Glad to see the twelve plus animal nazis of Ireland getting their asses kicked.[In the original posters of this thread an incredibly large one]Oh well Circus Vegas had better watch out as no doubt the animal nazis will be back to burn a few caravans and cars and trucks in the middle of the night.Which is of course more their style.Apart from beating up ten year old kids out on their horses with baseball bats.
Or being incredibly intelligent and setting off airhorns behind horses at a hunt in Waterford two years ago.Glad to see the Irish pouplation isnt as brainwashed as the British on the animal"rights"[ AKA terrorism.] More power to the circus Vegas staff.Should have fed them to the lions.

by pc Thu Jul 08, 2004 19:43

i notice that circus' always have their posters up hoardings or derelict buildings and inside the windows old of shops?

wheres the council when you need em?

circus seems to have a odour of dodgyness about them


theres nothing wrong wit ha bit of dodgyness :)

by wincing Thu Jul 08, 2004 19:37

(I'm just squeezing this in)
It's high season now all over the Iberian Peninsula for taking the piss out of Bulls.
And wow do they take the piss. Pamplona a small city on the outskirts of the Basque (depends on your politics whether you think Pamplona is basque or not) yearly has a macho festival, where everyone who wears a red neckerchief gets to run down the street being chased by a herd of angry bulls. Needless to say this is very popular. You've seen it on TV. But the variations of bull taunting are many. Last night on the tacky TV station, I saw a holiday resort in Murcia (the deep south) where kids line up on the edge of a swimming pool and jump into the water when a bull runs at them. Everyone thinks it's great fun. One granny was very proud of her terrier type dog, who went and had a go at the Bull. And I'm just thinking, wow, man that really is sadistic.
Anyway, the Catalanders never killed their bulls, in the bullfight, and if they did they stopped long ago, and so I suppose their Bull fighting is more Portuguese in character.
There is an aesthetic side to the whole thing, (if you forget the killing the bull bit) but I suppose there was an aesthetic side to gladiators as well.

***

anyway, the ALF ought release the elephant.
Don't you all think the ALF ought release the elephant? Editors there must be a thumbnail image of an elephant somewhere.

by John Thu Jul 08, 2004 19:21

The animal rights people should remove all the posters advertising this circus as a protest.

by John Thu Jul 08, 2004 19:16

Fair play to ya Bernie and the rest. You should organise a bigger picket on the back of this assault and see if the yellow bastards are up for it if there is people willing to stand up to them.

by Caroline Thu Jul 08, 2004 17:46

There are so many of you 'canteen kevins' out there always gripeing how you're hard done by and always wanting something for nothing. You create your rubbish, so 'shut up and pay up' like the rest of us do. Or maybe try and get a job instead of scabbing off the taxpayers and blaming the government for the sad little life you have!
As for Thomas, you are probably one of the thugs from last nite! The events Bernie Wright wrote about DID take place at vegas circus in Castleknock grounds.

by No2Circuses Thu Jul 08, 2004 17:28

Those poor activists. That must have been horrific. People that use animals in Circuses are a load of bastards. How could they have decided to pick on a bunch of peaceful protesters that included women and children??? I know why- because they're a load of stupid thugs with nothing better to do. And what must they do to those poor animals if they think nothing of beating up innocent people? Thinking about what happened just sickens me.

Why are those circus thugs working there? Because they're too fucking thick to work in a real job with normal people. They should be locked up and never allowed to see the light of day again.

Well done to all those wonderful activists.

by i hate the circus Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:35

Animals rights activists were attacked and injured last night as they attempted to hand out leaflets outside Courtneys Vegas Circus. One circus employee arrested.
Members of the Alliance for Animal Rights (AFAR) were attacked last night as they handed out leaflets outside the Vegas Circus which is due to be stationed in the grounds of Castleknock College for the next week. The activists had been outside the grounds of the circus for approximately ten minutes when employees came out to taunt us callings us queers and prostitutes (jesus…get some better insults lads…). One employee then launched himself at one of the activists and began punching and kicking him. Another five or six of them joined in, punching and kicking people to the ground. The circus thugs then began to hit people with placards and banners that had been brought by two children that had come to protest against the cruelty of the circus. They then smashed and stole a video camera belonging to one of the activists as he attempted to film the attack. In all, six activists were injured, some requiring stitches. Six Gardai then escorted a number of AFAR members onto the circus grounds in an effort to recover the stolen property. Activists witnessed Michael Courtney (circus proprietor) hitting an Elephant with a rake when they entered the Circus with the Gardai. He also threatened to do six months for attacking whoever else demonstrated at his circus...nice man. Gardai arrested and charged one circus employee.

If circus employees are prepared to treat people like this, I’m willing to bet the animals don’t fare much better. Among the circus’s entertaining (!?) acts is one that involves a sea-lion being forced to balance the full weight of a performer on its nose. Circus’s like to paint a picture of happy animals doing tricks because they like to. The truth is not such a pretty picture. Ringling Bros. Circus for example, has been quoted as saying: “At Ringling Bros., the relationship between animals and humans is built on mutual respect, trust and affection”. On the other hand video evidence has been obtained showing Ringling handlers whipping elephants in the face and gouging them with metal hooks in the course of their training. This case resulted in a conviction for cruelty to animals (see http://www.circuses.com/ringling.htm and http://www.peta.com/kids/grrr202/gr-bad.html). However, Vegas Circus and Ringlings are not ‘bad apples’; horrendous abuse is rife in the circus industry. After all, why the fuck else would an elephant stand on its head or a tiger jump through a ring of fire?!

by pat c Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:33

(c'mon, lets save those hedgehogs from the jaffas! ;) pat)
Eleventh night revellers have been urged to search their bonfires for hedgehogs before festivities get under way this weekend.
Campaigners said the vulnerable animals were likely to seek out bonfire sites because they were a perfect habitat for taking shelter.

Hundreds of bonfires are set to be lit across Northern Ireland this weekend.

They are built by the members of the Protestant community ahead of the Twelfth of July commemoration of William of Orange's victory over the Catholic King James II at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.

The British Hedgehog Preservation Society (BHPS) said before the pyres were lit on Sunday night, people should look out for any sleeping visitors.

Fay Vass of the BHPS said hedgehogs were nocturnal and slept during the day.

by Canteen Kevin Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:15

Yeah go and picket a circus. Where was this crusty lot during the Bin Tax battle? Off smoking joints no doubt. To this middle class bunch animals are more important than people. I doubt if anyone was hitting the elephant with a rake this sounds like a tool which is used to scratch and massage the elephants hide. A lot youstudent crusties know about animals.

by Ray Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:22

The incident is also mentioned in the Indo.

by Thomas Thu Jul 08, 2004 04:01

People should note that none of this has been verified (yet) from any other source. I would have thought that the author would have added more details if any of this is true, particularly after making serious allegations like the above.