Bush protests update, 22 June

by bridget Tue Jun 22, 2004 02:38 brayner2 at hotmail dot com 00441603499221

two of us will be arriving at dublin on thursday to go to shannon. Can anyone give us a place to sleep and/or a lift for the night? Cheers.

by Mary Tue Jun 22, 2004 04:45

Very noble of you and all to plug the simultaneous Dublin IAWM/SWP demo but I notice that, yet again, they've deleted the ad for the Shannon demo from their website. No mention at all of the Shannon demo on the IAWM website! What's going on?????

by Dominic Carroll - Anti-War Ireland Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:27 info at antiwarireland dot org 087 1258325

The question as to why the IAWM persists in deleting reference to the AWI Shannon demo has been raised elsewhere on this newswire. The IAWM has informed me by email of its reason for deleting mention of the Friday night AWI demo at Shannon:

"No War, No Bush: Shannon Demo Friday 25th June 7pm.
We have removed this event as it directly cuts across the event we have planned for shannon."

In fact, the IAWM event planned for Shannon takes place on Saturday, not Friday, so clearly will not be effected by the AWI Friday demo. Perhaps the IAWM is more concerned about the fact that it will "lose" people to Shannon from its Dublin demo. Such competetiveness is quite unhelpful. It is also the case that several other events due to take place on Friday – just as the IAWM protest begins in Dublin – ARE endorsed by the IAWM (protests in Galway, Sligo and Waterford). Clearly, the IAWM is picking and choosing which protests can be advertised on the Irish Anti-War website: those organised by the IAWM are acceptable, those organised by others are not.

It's a pity that such sectarianism persists, given the damage it is doing to the anti-war movement in Ireland. The position of Anti-War Ireland, by contrast, is as follows: We encourage all opponents of war and Bush to join a protest this weekend, be it at Shannon, Dublin or any other town in Ireland.

Incidentally, I've reposted the event on the IAWM site (for the nth time) and would encourage others to do likewise when next it's deleted.
http//:www.irishantiwar.org

by d Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:29

Various organisations may have differences in tactics, but at the end of the day we are all opposing Bushs visit. Therefore I welcome those that advertise all those who are opposing Bush's visit whatever or however they are organising.

But if people choose not to advertise other events then that is there choice although I would on this issue dis agree with that.

But if organisations are actually deleting posts of others who are also opposing Bush's visit, then this is quite simply wrong. That's all I have to say on this matter as we have but a short time to orgainse and build for whatever event to oppose Bush's visit.

Yet, I finish on this, maybe persons can take a leaf out of the Irish news today. they gave the lead letter in the letters page over to Anti War Ireland, while also on the next page carrying an article on the IAWM event. Thus the Irish news also giving space to both events. As again after all whatever the difference in tactics we are ALL opposing Bush, whatever our tactical differences

Finally I support the fraternal way in which Donomic Caroll puts his points and because of that have read and have taken some of his points onboard and responded with this post, Signing of - D.

by Yossarian Tue Jun 22, 2004 13:59

"But if organisations are actually deleting posts of others who are also opposing Bush's visit, then this is quite simply wrong"

Why do you say "organisations" as if you have no part in them? If you think that this is wrong, what are you going to do about it?

by cathal Tue Jun 22, 2004 14:32

a short piece with more questions than answers
This is something I've been meaning to ask/bring up for a while but havent got around to it.

There was a thread running on some other article a while back, maybe relating to a guy called Dominic Haugh (not sure though), possibly from the Socialist Party, and how he said that the Shannon residents should have authority over the means, methods, and tactics to be used in the Bush protests. I think this was in response to a meeting which was held in Shannon town.

Anarchists believe that local communities should have the power to make decisions for themselves. But in this situation - where does the "local" border stop? If people from Dublin want to go down to Shannon and tear a fence down, or set a US warplane on fire (or anything contravening the wishes of some locals) are they entitled to do it? What if people from Cork or Galway want to do this? Or even Co. Clare, but not Shannon itself?

Obviously people do not want to upset the local residents, but their focus is on keeping industry and jobs alive in the town, while anti-war demonstrators want to an end to the killing. If the Shannon locals value their jobs above the lives of people several thousand miles away, how can we balance this with our wish to see the US Military turfed out of Shannon?

This is a tricky question, and one I dont have answers to, but I dont think its ever fair to say that one group of people have authority over tactics simply because they reside close to the airport. If some Shannon residents told us to fuck off (and they have before during previous demos), should we obey their orders? What percentage of the people from a town must be present at a meeting before it can claim to speak on behalf of everyone? Are Shannon residents simply "right" just because they live nearby?

By the same logic then, people in Ireland should not protest about third world debt at corporate summits, because it is up to the people in the third world to decide what way we should protest. People in Dublin should not demonstrate outside the Israeli Embassy or Cement Roadstone Holdings, because the local residents of Dublin 4 & FitzWilliam Square dont want it.

The Shannon residents do not own or control the way that people choose to protest against Bush. War is terror is war - no matter where you are from you are entitled to demonstrate against this in whatever way you see fit.

by Curious Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:07

Let me get this straight. Dominic Haugh is doing the job of the cops. Is that right?
Is this man really a member of the Socialist Party? He sounds more like a Vardakar supporter than a Higgins supporter. Did he agree with the blockade of bin lorries and the actions of his comrades?
With friends like him.................................

by James Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:35

Cathal: "There was a thread running on some other article a while back, maybe relating to a guy called Dominic Haugh (not sure though), possibly from the Socialist Party, and how he said that the Shannon residents should have authority over the means, methods, and tactics to be used in the Bush protests."

Could you please provide a link to where he is alleged to have written that. Stories which can back up their assertions are more convincing than negative name-dropping.

by Ray Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:43

"It was also felt that any protest organised in Shannon should be under the stewardship of the Shannon residents and it is the intention of the organising committee to engage in discussions with others intending to protest at Shannon to consider this issue. "

by James Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:55

in fairness to Domnic Haugh, that sounds a good deal milder than the initial assertion. The Shannon residents have their views which they want to discuss with protest organisers. I understand that members of both Grassroots and IAWM have attended local meetings of the Shannon residents.

To answer the initial article, the views of the residents of a particluar area would preferably be taken into account and 'kept on side', but an automatic veto sounds a bit dodgy.

by Ciaron Tue Jun 22, 2004 16:25

This was a continual issue for the peace movement in Australia in the '80's & '90's as most uranium mines, hi tech U.S. military bases are located in the isoalted outback.

Major problem at Pine Gap with the Alice Springs peace group being heavilly infiltrated by CIA operatives, located (relatively in OZ terms) nearby to the NSA Pine Gap base that is responsible for targetting for nuke strikes and drive by cruise missile attacks etc.

The local peace group were hardly hospitable with news of nvda, blockades etc.

So yes there's at least seven sides/angles to every issue.

by Richard Tue Jun 22, 2004 16:53

This kind of pointless bickering reflects poorly on the whole movement. These kinds of monty python'esque arguments serve no real purpose other than to diffuse the rather clear point at hand. BUSH is NOT welcome in IRELAND.

I have come to these pages in search of relevant information and to prepare for the marches this weekend. Now rather than having all the info I desire on where to go and what to bring along I am instead left with less direction than when I initially arrived.

I will of course continue my seach until I am satisfied I have all the necessary info - but please less of the political posturing. It's just pointless!

by Dominic Haugh - Shannon Residents against Bush Tue Jun 22, 2004 16:54

The notice I placed on indymedia was a report on a public meeting in Shannon on June 8th. To quote directly from this report “One thing that was repeatedly stressed was the need for the protest to be peaceful in order to ensure that the maximum participation possible from Shannon. It was also felt that any protest organised in Shannon should be under the stewardship of the Shannon residents and it is the intention of the organising committee to engage in discussions with others intending to protest at Shannon to consider this issue.”

I did not say the following as you suggest:

“There was a thread running on some other article a while back, maybe relating to a guy called Dominic Haugh (not sure though), possibly from the Socialist Party, and how he said that the Shannon residents should have authority over the means, methods, and tactics to be used in the Bush protests. I think this was in response to a meeting which was held in Shannon town.”

The report was not my personal opinion merely a report on the attitude of ordinary residents of Shannon that attended the meeting. As a result of the meeting an organising committee was established that is engaged in the task of organising a protest of Shannon residents in Shannon on Friday evening. We have held discussions with a number of anti-war groups over the past week in order to facilitate co-operation between the various groups. Unfortunately the communication stopped before reaching any conclusion.

Everyone has a right to protest in Shannon. Whether the state will permit this is a different matter. However the primary concern of the organising group in Shannon is to provide an opportunity for the people of Shannon to engage in protest in the knowledge that the protest is organised, directed and stewarded by people from Shannon.

“Obviously people do not want to upset the local residents, but their focus is on keeping industry and jobs alive in the town, while anti-war demonstrators want to an end to the killing. If the Shannon locals value their jobs above the lives of people several thousand miles away, how can we balance this with our wish to see the US Military turfed out of Shannon?”

It is disingenuous to suggest that residents of Shannon do not want an end to the killing (this is the clear implication of your comment above). But the issue of jobs is important and to ignore it plays into the hands of those who support the US military use of Shannon. Government policy dictates that market forces will apply and the “open skies” will dictate the future of Shannon. The onus is on anti-war groups to oppose these ideas and to put forward alternatives that can bring the people of Shannon and workers in the region onside in support of the anti-war movement.

by Dominic Haugh - member organising committee of Shannon Residents protest Tue Jun 22, 2004 16:57

It is intended that the protest of Shannon residents will be assembling and protesting separately from the AWI and AmBush protest. While we acknowledge the right of everyone to protest in Shannon, we also felt it important to maintain a separate and distinct identity from other anti-war groups. If the residents of Shannon who assemble arrive at a concensus to participate in the AWI protest then we will do that. However, we are organising the protest on the understanding at this point that it will be separate and distinct from the other protests. The meeting will be stewarded by Shannon residents and will proceed along a route previously agreed with the Gardai if possible.

The Shannon residents protest will assemble in the Car Park of Shannon Town Centre opposite the Xtravision store at 7pm.

by Curious Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:03

What kind of Revolutionary Socialist agrees the bounds of a protest with th cops? Especially when those same cops are infringing everyones civil liberties.

by TrotSPot Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:11

This is the same Domnic Haugh who sabotaged the Demo at Shannon on 1 March 2003. Then he was raving about how the gardai might fire into an unarmed crowd. He also supported the Airport Police against the CW5 and Mary Kelly - he whinged that the Airport Police got into trouble whenever there was a security breach!

Dont trust him now. His group of "residents" has agreed the route and nature of the protest with the cops. Its all part of the SP/SWP strategy to make AWI/amBush look violent while the IAWM are the respectable protesters.

Haugh Haugh we know you for what you are.

by Badman Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:14

It is well known that members of the SP/SWP/IAWM have been engaged in scaremongering about the AWI/AMBUSH protest among the residents of Shannon (cf Damon Wyse's interventions in the Shannon meeting as reported here by Tim Hourigan and his interview in the Sunday People last week). Your demand (and yes Dominic you are on the Shannon steering committtee) that any anti-bush protest in Shannon should be marshalled by Shannon residents is ludicrous. Do the residents of dublin's north inner city have the right to marshall demos on O'Connell street? Cut the crap Dominic. The AWI and Shannon residents are meeting at the same time and place. You know well that AWI and Ambush are planning a purely symbolic protest and that there is no plans for any direct action or violence. If the Shannon residents want their own block on the march, they can steward it themselves. But this bullshit about imposed stewards and a seperate demonstration is the stupidest and most sectarian thing I've ever heard. Yes, I know that there are some concerns about the demo getting out of hand, but you are supposed to be a r-r-revolutionary and you should be pointing out to people that the risks of trouble are tiny. You should most certainly not be stoking up suspicion of any demonstration that you don't control - which you are patently doing at the moment.

by Badman Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:17

Dominic, you are a member of the steering committee. You and the SWP residents of Shannon (one of whom came absolutely last in the entire country in the election with 6 votes) have been stoking up the understandable fears of the residents about the risks of violence on the protests. Do you have to always act in such a shockingly sectarian way?

by Curious Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:30

Organisers & gardaí in meeting on protest

22 June 2004 15:53
A meeting between the gardaí and organisers of the anti-war protest at Dromoland Castle is underway in Portlaoise.

The protest at the castle is planned for this weekend.

Before the meeting, the protest organisers expressed the hope that the gardaí would allow their protest to meet at one central location in close proximity to Dromoland Castle.

Gardaí, who are attending the meeting, were unwilling to comment.

by pc Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:39

can anyone sensible give us more ifo on shannon res protests?

by Peter Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:42

What's happening on Friday night. There is bound to be many making their own way to Shannon on Friday and who will want to stay for the protests the next day.
What's happening?

by Yossarian Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:48

The original article would apear to me to be a troll considering the timing and the tone of the piece (picking up on underlying tensions between different anti-war groups).

At this stage we should be focussing on getting as many people as possible to Shannon (primarily) and other locations. Leave the recriminations (and there are a few!) for the aftermath.

by 1 of AWI / AMbush - DGN Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:51

The protest will be assembling at 7pm in Shannon Town Centre (outside the LIDL supermarket). If, by some chance, the police ban the protest and do not allow people into Shannon town, the best bet is to assemble at wherever the police stop people on the Shannon-Limerick road, whether that be Bunratty or the village of Crataloe.

by Peter Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:57

.. I was wondering what was happening after the protest? Is there some where to hook up with people who will be staying on for the protest on Saturday? Don't have the funds for hotel/B&B

by ec Tue Jun 22, 2004 17:59

;-)

by 1 of ... Tue Jun 22, 2004 18:00

There will be a peace camp where overnighters will be staying. The location and directions to it will be announced at the Friday evening demo.

by Peter Tue Jun 22, 2004 18:08

Little bit slow, me.

by cathal Tue Jun 22, 2004 18:26

Im not a troll, thanks - I was hoping the article would raise the issue of where and when local control begins and ends - and the intention is genuine

by pc Tue Jun 22, 2004 19:36

the title looked like a troll but the postings was balanced...

by Higgins voter Tue Jun 22, 2004 21:28

I find Dominic Haugh's take on the protest in Shannon to be mind-boggling. As a socialist he should surely be arguing that the key issue here is the right of anti-war demonstrators to peaceful protest. It doesn't matter whether those protesters are from Shannon or Clondakin.

Instead, he appears to be suggesting that 'marching separately' is a defensible position from a socialist perspective. In fact, this stance helps to undermine the lawful demonstration that he should be championing by making it appear that there is something dodgy or 'dangerous' about it. Contrawise, the guidelines published above indicate that it will be entirely peaceful protest, and it is clear that the organisers are adopting a very responsible attitude with regard to matters such as drunkenness.

The bottom line is that socialists everywhere always make it their priority to defend progressive marches, such as an anti-war march, against the threat of suppression by the police. Mr Haugh appears to be playing into the hands of the State. He has adopted an extremely moderate and conservative position (under the guise of claiming that he's only reflecting the views of the residents - is that the job of a progressive socialist when a march is threatened with suppression?). He is also openly collaborating with the police and helping them to limit the protests. He appears to have gone way beyond simply communicating with them.

Frankly, I hope that the leadership of the Socialist Party takes issue with Mr Haugh's approach. He doesn't reflect my views - as a supporter (though not member) of that party.

by merrovinginñññvanjanvonjohn Tue Jun 22, 2004 23:07

"on your side".
it's an old contract.

by Joseph Baltierra - Private Citizen Fri Jun 25, 2004 19:07

As an American I am deeply grateful to the good people of Ireland for taking a stance against George Bush. 52 percent of Americans have awakened from the shock induced sleep of 9/11 and have found a Supreme Court selected President feverishly working against the clock to increase the personal wealth of his family and friends. The other 48 percent are still in a state of denial about the "Infidelities" of their sweetheart. But the tide is turning thanks to the bravery and committment of the Irish people. If you're debating about going to the protest, think again. As a responsible citizen of the world community, you have an obligation to say NO to the worst President in the history of the United States.