Racist Irish pass Racist Referendum

by Benny Blanco - Black Blok Sat Jun 12, 2004 22:44

or is that just stewpit
so the racist referendum will be passed by 80% to 20%. so what does this mean are we a nation of racist wankers or are we just stewpit.
the turnout for the referendum is looking like 60% of the registered electorate, with perhaps the ref passing with an 80% majority. Many people will view these results with sadness (I have actually shed tears over this) yet more bemoan how we are "losing our reputation for humanity". The other election results have shown FF/PDs getting a right hiding but it seems the biggest hiding has been metted out to the non irish among us.

lets put things in perspective

Regarding our reputation for humanity. perhaps its time we stopped collectivly viewing ourselves as a righteous nation forever on the side of the sufferers, the blacks of Europe as it were. Historically it was Irish people who were among the most murderous and bloodthirsty footsoldiers of european colonialism. This was illustrated in the Irish participation in the extermination of the native peoples of the 'americas' and 'australia'. Albeit after we ourselves were colonised famine etc.

Yes the FF fatherbastards have lost nearly half their seats in dublin city council, but they garnered 40% support nationally still. Thats cos Ireland is rife with right wing catholic guilt ridden idiots. The FF gestapo initiated this referendum as a sponge tactic. They knew they were in for a drubbing cos life under the celtic tiger is expensive and hard. The health service is fucked, housing crisis, food gargle and baccy are all mucho pricey.

So they did this ref ting so that people would take out some of their pissed offness on GUESS WHO? Yes all the people from a round the world who have brightened up our towns and cities and who have worked their arses off doing all the poxy jobs like nursing, catering, bar work and everything else.

So the political class suceeded in diverting peoples anger towards immigrants. When things are going bad and no ones got any bright ideas play the race card.

The purpose of this referendum was to make the Irish working class anti immigrant in outlook as opposed to being anti boss. We can replace this apparent racism with solidarity and resitance, the class war continues.

True a sad day for Ireland

But remember we have prisons, an arms industry, a battered but still very powerful clergy, and the most corrupt mafia like power structure in the EU.

Our reputation for humanity is like any other nation states..............nowhere to be seen.

The people who voted in this referendum are not necessarily racist they just fell for a classic politicians trick.

Either way elections dont matter Ireland is on a downward trajectory corruptions abounds health housing and eduction are fuct. Give us a few years and our foreign investors (who own 40% of economy) will gone, no more euro money either.

The Political class from FF to SF and all in between have no answer to this......
nevermind the ballots........real power is in the streets.

Respect and love to all people from everywhere who come to live in Ireland

No Borders No Nations No Deportations

by Mary O'Rourke Sat Jun 12, 2004 22:49

I've had enough of this country. I'm moving to Cuba.

by Badman Sat Jun 12, 2004 23:05

RTE had an exit poll of 'spontaneous' reasons given for voting yes. The top two opinions were as follows:

1) We are being exploited by immigrants (I think 37%)
2) Too many immigrants (twenty-something%)

Even if the first one can be mostly explained away by reference to the constant stream of lies in the tabloids about refugees getting free cars, the second one is just plain racist.

A sorry day.

by UCD Lefty type Sat Jun 12, 2004 23:30

yesterday my 12 year old sister told me to vote yes to keep "them" out. i think this is a clear demonstration of the general mentality in ireland that the government has managed to appeal to so well. so if we're so xenophobic then how come shannon is being shut down for 2 days to welcome a foreigner???

its times like these that make me feel ashamed to be irish. funny that - i'm feeling ashamed quite a lot lately

by Lone Gunman Sat Jun 12, 2004 23:35

So we are a racist nation[hohumm what else is new??]
Well it has been democratically decided,so you cant bitch and moan that it was a stolen or doctored vote.
So cry me a river ,build a fuckin bridge over it and get over it.
Maybe it just shows that we havent taken total leave of our senses here.

by Jeremiah O'Mahony Sat Jun 12, 2004 23:59

It is indeed deeply embarrassing that this was passed.
But I do think we should take a leaf out of the government's book and refuse to accept the verdict, after all, if they can refuse to accept the verdict of the Irish people in the first Nice Referendum, why should we accept this verdict?
What I propose is that full records are kept of all births in this country (all 32 counties), so that these details are available for use in a campaign to get this changed. It may of necessity be a long campaign, which is why these accurate records must be kept.
It took several decades for the Apartheid system to be overthrown in South Africa. We must be prepared for a campaign of a similiar duration.
We must not let these Irish children be forgotten, and must be prepared to defend their rights.
However long it takes.

by Charles Darwin Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:08

Gore Vidal, the American author and acknowledged as a liberal commentator visited Dublin to give a lecture in 1999. During the course of his lecture he said:-

"A characteristic of our present chaos is the dramatic migration of tribes. They are on the move from east to west, from south to north. Liberal tradition requires that borders must always be open to those in search of safety or even the pursuit of happiness. But now with so many millions of people on the move, even the great-hearted are becoming edgy. Norway is large enough and empty enough to take in 40 to 50 million homeless Bengalis. If the Norwegians say that, all in all, they would rather not take them in, is this to be considered racism? I think not. It is simply self-preservation, the first law of species".

by PJ Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:18

Maybe some future generation will take a more enlightened view. and will look back in dismay at what we did in the same way we look back at the 1940's and 1950's.

Good idea to keep those records. even if it helps only one person. The immigrants who have settled here should take that on board and not accept this lying down.

by anarcho advocate Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:23

just lookin at some provisional results and it looks like Sligo (74-26) can be considered the second most liberal constiuency in the country after the old stallwart dun laoghaire-rathdown (71-29). who'd have thought!?!? being from the west myself, it's spiriting that not all rural villages are cloheen-esque. ok so i'm trying to put a positive spin on things but to be honest can't say i'm suprised at how racist this country is.

by irish abroad Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:35

Man this makes me lose so much faith in peoples common decency, I don't think i want to come home to Ireland, i just want to cry. I can't fathom how people could have fallen for this when facts screamed so loud that it was racist nonsense.

by chris bond Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:36

Its disgraceful that we voted yes. it was racist referendrum. But not everybody who voted yes was racist. id say 30% who voted yes were "racist". another 30% were just towing the party line of their beloved fianna fail or pds.and 40% were just highly misinformed.

who does mcdowell think he is demanding that the no campaign apoligise for calling it a racist referendrum. When the abortion refurendrum failed did labour/FG and green party demand an apology from fianna fail for being "pro life"?

by benny blanco - dead cop bloc Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:43

concerning the charles darwin type you are a fucking idiot, the gore vidal quote comes direct for the platform for immigration control website, a bunch of racists considered to be so irish they are linked on the bnp s website

i dont think we are a nation of racists rather the electorate where duped by the politicians

who is to blame for our failing health service

certainly not the hundreds of non irish who staff our hospitals

its not immigrants who are running this country into the ground its the political class, the d4 yuppies, the clergy, the ff gestapo,the corrupt garda blueshirts and basically the bosses

all the immigrants in ireland are either working their bollixes off or they are fleeing persecution (often both)

workers need to snap out of it and learn to know their real enemy

by Acid Sun Jun 13, 2004 00:46

End of August 'they're' predicting. Watch this space.

by Kevin, Dublin Sun Jun 13, 2004 01:14

Grow up, please. I don't wish to troll, but calling the Irish nation racist on the basis of a majority voting yes is offensive nonsense.

I was proud to vote no but won't be down the pub spitting in my 'racist' mates' drinks just cos they voted yes. Sure there is plenty of racism out there, but I imagine that most of those who voted yes are anything but.

If you think that Ireland deserves the adjective racist (and some countries out there do), then a proper analysis is needed. Otherwise you're just crying wolf and devaluing a hugely important issue. It's the same tactic as the Israelis labelling everyone who disagrees with them 'anti-semetic'.

by Nordie Sun Jun 13, 2004 02:56

Ah ca'mon now. I think we all know the Irish are racist beyond belief. We all live in Ireland and we hear it all the time from everywhere. Lets just admit it for fucks sake. Why pretend otherwise?

by Festus Sun Jun 13, 2004 03:07

I refuse to accept this result. The people were scared into voting for this racist amendment by scares stories from the racist fascist Injustice Minister prompted by his CIA masters. They wouldn't want A-rabs moving freely around Europe, would they?

We can start a petition to get this disgraceful racist sham overturned, if we get enough signatures we can force another referendum on the issue. Can't we?

by Limerick1919 Sun Jun 13, 2004 04:00

Enough. A well funded campaign won out in an environment where there was precious little debate. FF had 10 thousand (SBP) posters and did a maildrop of most houses with their leaflet. They also took out colour adverts in most provincials this week and last- so I think it would be fair to estimate that their spend is close to 200 grand, PDs also did a decent run of posters, through talking to one of their candidates, I think they might have done in the region of a thousand plus presumably press somewhere- another 10 grand. Allied to this was the secret yes campaign waged on the doorsteps by the blueshirts.

Against this we had a tiny effort by Labour and Sinn Fein and a non existant one by the Green party and other smaller groups, i'm talking leaflets and posters and i'm talking out of Dublin. Obviosly CARR made a huge effort but with nothing approaching the finance. The ICCL also produced an excellent leaflet but again I presume in small numbers.

It is clear to me what happened yesterday. Most of those people went to vote for council elections( look at drop off in Roscommon where council elections postponed) . A ref and euro paper thrust into their hand also. Which do they know more about? For the vast majority of people the only message they will have seen over the last two weeks is the big Happy yes ( to bubbles maybe but a yes none the less). Thus those undecided, confused make it yes because the government says it is ok and sure no one is saying no anyway. So I refuse to agree with the assertion that it is a racist majority-far from it.

However this should be a wakeup call. A can of worms was opened by Mcdowell here and lies and untruths left to go unchallenged. For far too long most on the Irish left has been complacent on racism issues. The need for Labour, Sinn Fein and the Greens to come forward, be visable, be vocal is essential. There also should be a drive to establish a broad based anti racism activists group with strong links to trade unions- there have been many campaign groups but none seems to have come to the fore. This is essential so that there can be an instant network around country when they attempt further erosions of the New Ireland.

by Nazeem Sun Jun 13, 2004 04:02

He said that about 3 weeks ago. Looks like he's out of touch these days.

by Sean Dowling Sun Jun 13, 2004 07:51

Happy to be vindicated in my prediction on this site last week, when I forecast a Yes vote of 3 or 4 to 1. As regards Waters, you're wrong, he predicted four or five to one No. The man lives in his own world. The same can be said for the whole Irish Times elitist cadre--O'Toole, Brown, Holt, and others. They are all cut off from the reality of life for 80% of the people. I think there is a need for someone in journalism to analyze the biased coverage in the media generally, IT and News Talk 106 especially, who were blatantly pro-NO. But knowing Irish journaists I don't hold my breath for any self-critique.


As regards the vain hope from Jeremiah O'Mahony and others here, to the effect that the people's decision can be changed, note that from now on citizenship law will be solely a prerogative for the Oireachtas. Labour, SF and Green supporters who feel strongly about permitting maternity tourism should demand that their parties advocate this in any future Dail debates. Indeed if they think it's such a good thing, why don't Labour SF and Greens put in their platforms for the next general election that they will if in government enshrine citizenship by birth in legislation. Anyyone like to take a bet on the likelihood of that happening ?

by jeff Sun Jun 13, 2004 14:50

The reasons Irish voted yes was because the no campaign played the race card, and other people got annoyed with that.

Ireland is the only country in Europe that allowed people born here to automatically get citizenship. Now, in the line with the rest of Europe, we have a system where citizenship is earned via residency.

Normally I agree with a number of views on this site but this referendum went arseays as far as the emotive views of the no campaign are concerned. We should be thinking about our own poor first. I always thought it was disgusting that foreign people were able to get housing ahead of Irish people. No, I am not a member of the Ku Klux Klan, I just believe open borders has as much relevance as the tooth fairy. What, like, do you guys think anyone and evreyone can just move into a small space and chil out like they are at a fucking rock concert.

Conservatives sicken me, but those on the left just tire me with their puppy eyed idealism.

Despite this, I will still always vote left. Conservatives will always sicken me, they tend to get off on death and destruction a lot. I wish conservative voters would be more honest, instead of writing in here with starry eyed verse telling us how great Reagen was, yet failing to comment on his dark side. " Ah sure...", is the most one gets from a conservative regarding human rights abuses, homeless people, dead Iraqis, dead Palestinian's, dead poor people.


The best thing for us all is for the A bomb to be droped.

On us all.

by Starstruck - UCD Left Sun Jun 13, 2004 15:21

Id like to echo the comments of my colleague UCD Lefty type in saying that i too am utterly ashamed to be Irish today and have been since we whored our airspace out to the fucking killers from across the Atlantic.
Shame on FF and the PDS.We attacked McDowell when he came to UCD over racist policies ,accusations he strongly denied.
This was before the referendum which has since proven McDowells utter contempt for due democratic process and an inherent racist streak.
Fuck him and all those who support his agenda.
This is a sad defeat but our spirit cannot be broken.
We must continue to fight the drachonian policies of McDowell and his partners in crime and we must mobilise and send out a clear message to the World that we are not a nation that advocates war and death racism and exploitation and that we will not be used as a political playground by the war criminals of the Western world.
All hands on deck for Ambush 2004

by Phil Boylan Sun Jun 13, 2004 15:50

I find it amazing how this site is always saying how bad it is to be mis-represented, by the media and all and then you start labelling any person who goes against you as Facists, Nazis, Racists, war-mongerers.

I voted Yes, for reasons you would all call racist, or wrong. Maybe you'd say I was misinformed or just plain stupid, but I have to say if you ever wanna be taken seriously, you have to prove that you guys are better than the media you hate so much.

Now, please explain to me exactly how the Irish are a Racist people, and how the Ref was Racist???

by Emma Sun Jun 13, 2004 17:04

It is a disgrace the racist referendum was passed. I agree totally with the people who are ashamed to be Irish today. Its a sad day for this country,i didnt want to believe we had a nation of racists but lets face it we do.
This racism from Michael HITLER Mcdowell minister for injustice and inequality is gross.
We are becoming a facist,racist militant state. Its true what they say about the irish we are totally BACKWARD.
Lets take a national vote on deporting Mcdowell.

by Alan Darcy Sun Jun 13, 2004 17:20

To whom it may concern,

I am delighted that the hopeless no campaign was soundly defeated. The people they represent will no longer be able to have their "Irish" nationality children - they can have Nigerian nationality children instead - or whatever nationality their parents are.

This referendum shows how out of touch the views of this campaign and that of the Irish Refugee council really were. Now watch how many bursting asylum seekers arrive here - a lot less will try - and they will all fail.

The Minister has done the right thing, this was not a racist campaign - it was just the right thing to do - just 6 years too late!

Regards

Alan Darcy
Delighted Yes Voter

by jeff Sun Jun 13, 2004 17:53

What age are you, twelve? It is one thing to be rational and vote ' Yes' in this refrendum. It is quite another thing to go " Ha! Ha! " and laugh at the desperate measures some third world people go through just to secure a future for their kids, via a loophole that needed fixing.

To make it worse, you use capitals. You are a fucking moron and it is a shame your abortion was not performed 12 years earlier.I would sooner have a whole mud village of immigrants become citizens than allow pondlkife like you to even get a social insurance number.

Again, I wudda voted no. I didn't, because I didn't register at the fucking embassy in Den Haag. However, I knew I would not need to bother. Common sense dictates one needs border controls, as well as contraception and the intervention of Nature in causing Death, to keep population at sensible levels.

I am glad I stayed in the coffee shop that day.

by Phil Boylan Sun Jun 13, 2004 19:20

I have nothing but sympathy for the poor unfortunate people who feel that their only option is to travel to a foreign land to prevent their death or torture, and while it is horrible that these SMALL proportion of people will be affected, I would rather have the ref inacted than allow even one person travel to Ireland intentionally pregnant and thus gain citizenship for their child.

This does NOT affect people who are working here, it does not affect people who are applying for their asylum status.

I personally believe that ANY mother who travels from a country in the late stages of pregnancy, should be charged with child endangerment. Unless there is a valid reason i.e. fleeing oppression and possible murder, she is knowingly putting her health and mor importantly the health of her unborn child at severe risk. They should be charged and deported.

I also do not agree with the comments posted by some of the Yes campaigners here. I am not willing to gloat at such a scenario, but at least we got things done.

by R. Isible Sun Jun 13, 2004 19:28

There is no "law of species" under the Darwinian interpretation of evolution. Darwin (in some interpreations) explained evolution in terms of individuals striving to propagate their DNA. The "species" (which of the at least 9 biological species concepts do you refer to?) has nothing to do with it. Add to this that you're talking about denying basic human rights to members of our own species (Homo sapiens) and I wonder if you (and Gore Vidal if he's reported accurately) have made any attempt to understand what you're talking about.

by Nordie Sun Jun 13, 2004 19:37

Do you wanna know why it was racist and appealed to the inner racist in people who maybe don't even know they're racist?

Beacuse imagine it was white women coming here from abroad and having white children who could then claim Irish citizenship. No great mass of people would give a shit if the women were all coming from Holland or Australia or Britian and were all having lovely wee pink babies. I sure couldn't imagine a referendum being called over the head of it if people just had to look at glowing white faces on their streets.

The world is still at a very primitive stage.

by angryliberal - iccl,labour etc. Sun Jun 13, 2004 19:56

I am both unsuprised and disappointed in the election results.It always semmed like an uphill struggle after years of the government shifting the goal posts on what is racism.Since the mid 90s we have been fed ona daily basis a story of immigrant hordes and irish people left at a disadvantage.While i would show restraint at using the term racist i think that the problem can be explained as a mistake between xenophobia and practicality.Since the mid-90s the two seem to have become the same in the majority view,most people aren't racist,look at the results for justin barrett but we have allowed the government to redefine what xenophobia is and have lost because of it.

by sean Sun Jun 13, 2004 20:06

quote: I've had enough of this country. I'm moving to Cuba. /quote
............eh they won't let you in...very strict immigration criteria there. They have great pride in themselves as a nation.

by Katherine O'Connor Mon Jun 14, 2004 01:22

I was expecting the Yes vote to get through but I was saddened and alarmed at the sheer size of the vote. Ireland of the welcomes "Where are you"???
To hear such negative statements being said about our fellow brothers and sisters is enough to make me cry.
Have we forgotton so quickly that for many hundreds of years the Irish have travelled to every corner of the globe in search of work and to seek out a better life for themselves and their families. Now the tables have turned and we are one of the richest countries in Europe, no more forced emigration for us yet we blatently refuse to return the hospitality to those now in need.
Imagine being heavily pregnant and having to travel thousands of miles in order to give you child a better chance in life, shame on us, shame on our government and shame on the church for not speaking out and clarifing this debate properly.
I am not surprised that we treat the poor, oppressed refugees in this fashion, for heavens sake look at the way our government treats the emigrant Irish in Britain, broke their backs doing hard physical labour to keep "the auld country afloat" back in the 50's and 60's, now they are old, poverty stricken, sick and live in absolute squalor in British slums and homeless hostels and nobody gives a toss about their welfare.
We are now a liberal economic country, money and profit above all other things. I was not at all swayed by the media or government crap enticing people to vote Yes, I followed my own conscience and voted No, not one of us have the right to decide on a poor child's future, It's purely a racist issue nothing more. We don't have any proper immigration policy in place,asylum seekers are shoved into B&B's, given a few lousy euros every week,not allowed to work though most are willing to and are left waiting up to two years before their fate is decided and it usually ends in deportation. People are racist because they don't know no better. Refugees are human just the same as you and I, where is our christian humanity?? it's gone just like our Ireland of the welcomes, all we want now is fee paying tourists, fleece them for every dollar or cent that they have in our over priced hotels and guest houses in order to keep the liberal economy thriving.
Maybe we should ask ourselves one question, If Jesus walked among us today, what do you think he would have put on the Ballot paper??? There is a calender with a date on it for each of us, life is short, one day we will meet him. Show love not hatred.

by Bentley driver Mon Jun 14, 2004 01:42

We always will be, as long as those coming to enjoy our hospitality have the necessary visas. Nothing's changed, this amendment is just a reflection of reality.

I was surprised that opinion polls were saying over 30% of people would vote NO, I knew the true figure was far lower.

I can't wait to read what Fintan The Toole makes of it!!!

by audio rté Mon Jun 14, 2004 09:37

RTÉ Six One / 12 June 2004
Michael McDowell (PD), Pat Doherty (SF), Mary Coughlan (FF) and Eamon Ryan (Greens) discuss the performances of their parties and the Referendum

Streaming
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0612/6news/6news56_2c.smil

Archived Audio

by audio rté Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:10

MP3 Audio of RTÉ discussion

http://tinyurl.com/2gwbu

by Donnacha Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:58

One of the many reasons I left Dublin was the sickening growth of racism in the city. And here it is, clear as day. At least here in London we kicked the BNP's ass.

London

Conservative 26.8%
Labour 24.8%
Liberal Democrat 15.3%
UK Independence Party 12.3%
Green 8.4%
Respect - The Unity Coalition 4.8%
British National Party 4.0%

by Michael Keane Mon Jun 14, 2004 13:16

but londoners and the british in general voted for right wing parties like the Conservatives and UKIP. You know what the Conservatives want to do with asylum seekers - throw them out to a safe third country (in the middle of the pacific) while their cases are dealth with. UKIP say the following "In future, UKIP will return all immigrants without proper documentation to whichever country they entered the UK from. Illegal immigrants who do gain access into the UK will be held in detention centres until such time that they can be returned to the country they entered the UK from, or their country of origin. There will be no exceptions. "

This just shows people around the EU are fed up with the absolute abuse of our countries by asylum seekers - 98% of which are total fakes. The UK is no different!

by Donnacha Mon Jun 14, 2004 15:08

No, actually, I gave two of my votes to the Greens to block the BNP and spoiled the other two. Not that I'm ever going to defend people who voted for UKIP or the Tories, but there's a lot more to that than just the refugee issue, unlike the BNP. UKIP, in particular, was a clear cut anti-EU protest vote as UKIP are never going to be in power anywhere.

D.

by Ushinator Mon Jun 14, 2004 15:13

All those ashamed people who cried over the result in the referendum well though luck. There was absolutely no campaign for a no vote so what did you expect to happen. All the parties were too interested in getting their members elected to care about this referendum. It was up to you to run a no campaign and did you rise to the challenge, you did certainly did not so you can feck off to cuba for all i care.
And Just so you know i voted no and ran a big campaign in a college in the Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown area and we can see the results of that. And any all this means is that the Dail can make the change to citizenship whoever is in power.

by Limerick1919 Mon Jun 14, 2004 16:07

only a few consituencies got over 25% NO DL rathdown Donegal, sligo, Leitim, ,and Galway city- any reasons?
Was the GFA a card that should have been played more?
Ushinator - lots of us tried really hard for this campaign in different areas but for some of the reasons i have outlined (in comment 18) it was always going to be difficult. Maybe some people might like to address the two suggestions I made earlier about the future.

by Jason Kennedy Mon Jun 14, 2004 16:31

The reason you lost is because the majority of Irish people realised that the people you were protecting were abusing our system on a massive scale. To be honest I find it amazing that you got any votes at all.

We are not going to remain the maternity capital of Europe and this referendum proves this. On another matter why are the filipino nurses giving out - their children can get citizenship after 3 years, I am married to a filipino and she finds the nurses position incredible.

Jason Kennedy

by Yes Voter Mon Jun 14, 2004 16:41

I WAS going to vote yes , but in the end i buckled and voted No. My reasons for voting no were not related to the racism angle, and i agree with Jeff wholeheartedly that it was the emotive and reactionary NO campaign that turned this into a race issue. Also,'Ushinator' I strongly disagree with your (and others )assertion that there was an absence of a no campaign. every night on the news another party, lobby group, celebrity or individual added their voice to the no Campaign. It was everywhere. Not to mention the millions of pamphlets and flyers handed out seemingly everywhere.
Anyway, i Voted no in the end because i dont think we should change the constitution lightly. This Ref must hold the record for hastiness, No consultation , no Green or White papers, no consultation with public policy groups, cross border groups re Good friday agreement, No proper Debate of the real issues (although the NO campaign are also guilty of this, replacing reason with teary-eyed raving about racism and the decline of the 'Ireland of the welcomes'. -yeah, where are the saints and scholars too?). once more we were rushed through the sheep gate and fleeced, Bahhhh. If we needed this constitutional change then why not do it properly, at least 12 months of open and honest discussion, given a reasonable time frame im sure the NO opposition could've got their facts and figures and maybe come up with a decent argument instead of making themselves look just like the kind of knee-jerk bleeding heart liberals that most Irish voters love to hate.

by pc Mon Jun 14, 2004 17:41

the irish a 100% selfish 80% slightly more so

by Diaspora Mon Jun 14, 2004 20:23

It's always been a class war. The rich of the planet and their lackeys are free to travel wherever they want, stealing & buying land, exploiting cheap labour, selling arms, exploiting through cash crops, with the hel;p opf the IMF, the world bank, GATs, and the WTF. This is supported by the consumer in the west who should realise where their clothes and food are coming from. These countries that have been robbed and bombed with western made arms also have their doctors and nurses 'stolen', their infrastructure smashed so that they have to look for work elsewhere, where they get exploited by the rich fuckers the same as us working class ( sorry but the middle class are actively buying into this with property speculation ). Your priviliged existence may not be so priviliged a little sooner than you think. GlThe transnationals are free to roam where ithey want to roam deciding who becomes are the slaves. Yes there are over 72 million people in the slave trade who are actually on NO wages - this does not include the poorly paid on a dollar a month etc. Where's your fucking ethics now. Wake up and smell the ( ripped off thank you Plan Columbia ) coffee.

by Moley O Suilleabhain - Irish peace society(U.L) Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:50 suilly at yahoo dot com dromore house, Newport Co. Tipp

I want bumper stickers that say that i voted No in the referendum-anyone any ideas?

I went to a big posh boarding school called Glenstal abbey and i left two years ago-almost all my friends voted yes in the ref and the ones who didnt only voted no to spite the government and said this openly!!!

I find this strange as it is quite obvious that my friends do not give a fuck about anyone except themselves, after such a priviledged education and upbringing it depresses me that it is a laughing matter among people my age--what is going on in the world friends....theree are so many bloody wankers!!!

this is why i want the bumperstickers! so that when the shit hits the fan in a decade or two it will still be on my car--but i am a young male so....mabe not.

i am very happy i found this page!
Slán.

by babybromely Tue Jun 15, 2004 14:59

This was without doubt a racist referendum and any yes voter who claims ignorance in that regard is self-deluding at best and deliberately dishonest at worst.
1. The referendum asked us to exchange a citizenship based on residence at time of birth for one based on inherited privilige. Citizenship is now to become something passed on through the blood line, in other words it is to be derived through biology rather than on republican (note the small r) principles of equality. Just because other EU nations have already embedded such essentialist - and yes fundamentally racist because it embodys race thinking - ideolgies in their legislation does not mean that they are to be copied. By the way if we are so keen to get our fucking social policy in to line with the rest of Europe, why do we drag our heels on abortion? The common theme is of course the denial of rights .

2. The logic underpinning the decision to hold the referendum was racist. McDowell explictly demonised non-national women, and held them responsible for the poor state of maternity services. This 'othering' ensured that the longstanding problematisation of immigrant identity continues.

3. Large numbers - perhaps a majority - voted yes because they think that immigrants are parasitic scabs. The explicitly differentiate between Irish (good white christiam emigrants) and immigrants (black/brownish, devious and indolent). The social contexts form which immigrants come and the challenging circumstances they now face are disregarded in popular discourse - in the media but also popular converstation - as the attribution of blame to individuals and communities is an easier option. This is racism, because it is based on generalisation and stereotype and because it produces discrimination in the public sphere. Prejudice+race thinking+discrimination = Irish Racism.

What galls me most is that I worked my ass off in campaigning on this referendum but I know for a fact that many left wing candidates fudged the issue. The hid from the negative publicity that the 'no camp' would generate. Many lefties whinged about the use of the word 'racist', not wanting to insult the electorate. Well fuck that! Being a socialist means challenging they myths that pervade our society, not just the economic ones but the cultural ones too. I would burn my passport if I didn't need it for very pragmatic and self-promoting reasons. (Citizenship is a commodity afterall). The enormity of the referendum vote shows that racism in a core problem in this society, not just some passing trend that socialism will eradicate. I am fairly sure that large numbers of FF, FG, Labour voters said Yes, but a large proportion of SP and SF did too. So what are those parties going to do about it?

by exxplioter Tue Jun 15, 2004 16:08

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change forthwith the old tradition conditions
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

by BK Tue Jun 15, 2004 16:53 hinkar_cm at hotmail dot com

You say "The referendum asked us to exchange a citizenship based on residence at time of birth for one based on inherited privilige"...the whole point of the referendum was that citizenship was not based on residence. One merely had to be born here, not reside here, to gain citizenship. The new law will mean that one's children will gain citizenship regardless of race if they have been resident here for 3 of the 4 previous years. It'll apply to equally black Nigerians and to white Swedes.

You may view citizenship as nothing more than a worthless "commodity", but the vast majority of Irish people do not. Incomprehensible as it may seem, it matter to Irish people that their passports say "Ireland" and not, for example, "UK".

Scream "racist" all you like, it just consigns you to the lunatic fringe, the sort of people who refuse to debate issues because they know "The Truth", and heap abuse on anyone who dares to hold a contrary position...and after this result you still say you lost because you didn't insult enough people by calling them "racist"...oh dear oh dear...

by Joe Tue Jun 15, 2004 17:06

Unfortunately for you BK the RTE exit poll demonstrated that most of those who voted for the referendum did so for racist reasons. Only 37% voted yes for the reasons put forward by the government for the referendum in the first place.

Racism is endemic to Ireland and has been for many years as shown by our treatment of Irish Travellers. We've been able to hide away from this because for a long time Travellers were the only sizeable ethnic minority and they were so villified and marginalised that this racism was sort of invisable. If I was one of the 37% who genuinely beleived the government line I'd be feeling sick at the monster that has been unleashed in its name.

by BK Tue Jun 15, 2004 17:25

Yes, unfortunately, many did vote YES for racist reasons. What I mean is that you are never going to change that by trying to bully and verbally abusing people. Does anyone really believe that shouting "racist" at everyone will make the country less racist?
All it does is irritate people...
The word is becoming as meaningless as "anti-semetic"...

by Dee Tue Jun 15, 2004 17:29

**Scream "racist" all you like, it just consigns you to the lunatic fringe, the sort of people who refuse to debate issues because they know "The Truth", and heap abuse on anyone who dares to hold a contrary position...and after this result you still say you lost because you didn't insult enough people by calling them "racist"...oh dear oh dear...**

BK, it is you that is refusing to debate the issues, not babybromely.

Just because someone is consigned to the "lunatic fringe" doesn't mean they are wrong.

There was no abuse heaped on anyone in that argument. Of course, you appear to be taking the term "racist" as a form of abuse rather than as a usefully defined term which it was in that contribution.

As for the residency requirement

1. It is being made increasingly difficult right now for people outside the accession countries to come here legally to work or to claim asylum.

2. A baby that has just been born cannot realistically be said to have lived anywhere for three years. So, as babybromely said, you are granting citizenship based on the privileges or circumstances of the parents.

I agree with you that our citizenship is more than a commodity (although you must agree that it is an extremely useful commodity nowadays).

Who you allow to be fully Irish and who you don't is a very important symbol of the values of Ireland and its citizens.

I'd rather live in a country that made no distinction between children born here based on their parents.

by babybromley Tue Jun 15, 2004 18:09

I don't think I screamed in my previous posting and I don't think that I insulted anyone either. What I did do was give a considered argument on what I see as the racist aspects of the referendum and 'the people's' response to it. If you detected anger in my posting, you are correct. I am infuriated because I have a strong point of view on this issue. I am not going to feign some palatable form of moral relativsim in the interests of keeping up a happy social consensus. I think I was right to vote no and I think that those who voted yes are wrong. That is what you call a political perspective.

I do agree that the word racism is often bandied about without any explanation or clarification and that is why I attempted to define my understanding of it. If you are arguing that we dispense with the word altogether, then we must diverge. What this referendum shows me is that there has been too little and not too much discussion about racism in this country. Racism has real consequences for people on the ground. Only the other day I read graffiti with explict racist intent. It celebrated the referendum result with these depressing words.

'The people have spoken - get the niggers out'.

Pretty unequivocal don't you think? While I might agree that the racism that pervades this society is considerably softer than what is cited above, it is real nonetheless. Listen to the endless radio phone ins about immigrants (invaraibly Nigerians are blamed) who are accused of misappropriation of everything from mobile phones, to baby buggies to cars. The demonsiation is persistent. The evidence cited on RTE regarding the results of exit polls suggests similarly strong levels of anti-immigrant feeling. Exactly the kind of stuff Irish immigrants to the UK and US had to put up with in the past, and if it was racist for us, surely it is racism when applied here.

I do tend to avoid the 'I am ashamed to be Irish stuff' as I think it is generally quite a trite sentiment. But I am genuinely despairing - hence the lunacy I suppose. It's only wonderful that you, BK, have such superior insight and diplomatic skills to myself. But it would be interesting to read what you have to say about a postive anti-racist strategy and how the problems identified in so many of the other postings can be addressed.

One thing you might brush up on though is your reading skills. My original posting said
'residence at time of birth' not residence on its own. Maybe I should change that to 'location of birth' in the interests of clarity. And when I said that, citizenship was a commodity, I was dabbling in sarcasm. I would have thought that with your obvious sensitivity that this might be picked up.....

by Phil Boylan Tue Jun 15, 2004 21:27

OK so we have someone who is willing to put some sort of a response on why the ref was 'RACIST'.

I don't see the Ref as Racist as what it does it make it more difficult for just anyone to claim Irish Citizenship so to speak. I have always thought a person shold have to be present in the country for a period of time before they can Magically become Irish or British or American, or Nigerian or Dutch. Its just common sense. It stops handing out Citizenship to people who may never use it. Lets look at it this way, an Argentinian couple on a protracted holiday to Ireland, arrive here and during their lets say 3 months, the lady gives birth to a beautiful baby girl. She is given Irish Citizenship, so they bring her home and she never again sets foot on Irish soil. Where is the point in her having a dual citizenship. If she doesn't use it, then it is pointless. If, however, someone is born here and they then have to come back here to Gain Citizenship, then we will cut out people having a dual citizenship.

I do not view myself racist. I am aware to most if not all of the No campaigners I AM a racist, but thats your opinion. I appreciate every non-national and Asylum seeker who comes to Ireland and works at whatever Job, I believe they are contributing to our society and by their presence they might be able to spread a bit of added culture to our nation. I do not appreciate any cunts who come over intent on bleeding our system. I am aware that its a very small proportion of em. In fact I would say there are as few as say 100-1000 a year who are attempting this,but I would rather make it as difficult as possible for them to rip-us off, than to not have anythig in place and be branded a Racist. I feel the same about Irish spongers as well, BTW. Anyone who is not out providing some sort of reason for their existance in this country, whether it be Nun, Banker, Pilot, Lab Aide, Doctor, Librarian, good honest student etc, is more than welcome to claim to be Irish, any asshole Irish guy who sponges off the dole all the time and does not TRY to get a job, or turns down jobs hes dislikes, fuck em, wish there was a way of deporting them instead of the honest hard-working people I see daily in my job.

And I don't mean anything bad, I mean in my daily life I will meet, many Non-Irish Doctors/Nurses, I will meet many Non-Irish Tellers and service people, many Non-Irish Bus drivers, who I actually prefer to have driving me than Irish drivers, as they seem to have alot more manners. I do not think all Non-Irish should be cleaners and tellers, I want them to be spread throughout our country in every job possible.

I don't the Ref has stopped this from happening at all. I think it has just made it more reasonable that we will only get people who will help our country.

Either way, calling people Racist coz they voted for the Ref is a bit stupid. It alienates people from your ideas, and not just the ones on the Ref. It pushes people away and does not help anyone.

by Jim Williams Tue Jun 15, 2004 21:38

I am so disappointed at the No result in the referendum ………….. absolutely unfair, unwarranted and racist. I would suggest to all our friends affected by this rejection, Nigerians, Roma Gypsies and others, to turn their back on racist Ireland and to go instead to a country that will respect them and the rights of their children …….. perhaps Britain, France, Germany or Austria. There, I am sure, their children will be accorded the full citizenship, rights and respect of their adopted country. I am certain I am right in this !! Well ……..almost certain. That is, I think there is a good chance the kids would get citizenship. That is, there is a possibility ……….. maybe. Or then again, there may be a few difficulties to encounter. And maybe some small insurmountable obstacles to deal with initially. Or most likely, not a snowball’s fucking chance in Hell .

by expatriate Tue Jun 15, 2004 23:00

I would suggest to all our friends affected by this rejection, Nigerians, Roma Gypsies and others, to turn their back on racist Ireland and to go instead to a country that will respect them and the rights of their children …….. perhaps Britain, France, Germany or Austria.

Good let them come over here to Germany where after about seven years or so of residency they might be able to apply for citizenship .... or to Austria where similar regulations apply and where black Africans are regulary referred to by respectable white Austrians using the term "Neger" (it's close enough to its English cognate for non-German speakers to decipher) and where there have been a few incidents in recent years of poor unfortunate asylum seekers dying under questionable circumstances while under police "supervision" ....
See for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3093433.stm

My advice: try to get out a bit more and sample the "racist" attitudes to be found in other European countries and who knows you might even come to the conclusion that the much maligned Irish are nothing special in this regard and certainly not as .... ahem "black" .... as they are being painted by some cloud-cuckoo land commentators here ......

And as for the Roma and Gypsies, let them go back to the Czech Republic where I'm sure that a warm welcome is awaiting them ..... they certainly didn't get much of a Cead Mile Failte over in Britain ....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/35080.stm

by expatriate Tue Jun 15, 2004 23:59

I just reread Mr. Williams posting ...... next time use a "tongue-in-cheek" smiley for those of us who are a bit slow on the uptake .....

by Pat B Wed Jun 16, 2004 02:28

This is a clear example that democracy doesn't work. How can you expect ignorant uneducated masses to make enlightened humanitarian decisions?

We need to start a nationwide petition to get this horrible racist decision overturned.

by benny blanko - vaction in the ghetto wi my mo fo brudders kid Wed Jun 16, 2004 03:53

for we are all africans

ireland is in north west africa weve drifted up a bit over the years

the europeans decided what it meant to be europeans long b4 they treated the irish like human beings

the referendumb was a loaded gun

what if the ref had asked

that all the bankers and garda who were implicated in serious corruption in the last few years were given mandatory 25 sentences

1 there would be a massive turnout

2 it would get passed by a huge margin

would people be saying we were a nation of cop hating the eat the rich screaming heads or what

fuk the racist and the pigs

benny blanko
pp the batty blok

by G Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:40

I refuse to accept this racist result.
by Pat B Wednesday, Jun 16 2004, 1:28am

"This is a clear example that democracy doesn't work. How can you expect ignorant uneducated masses to make enlightened humanitarian decisions?

We need to start a nationwide petition to get this horrible racist decision overturned."

Just who does he sound like?
PatB, Do you really feel yourself to be appropriately qualified to dictate to the 'ignorant' masses you hold in such contempt.

by Joe Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:49

Phil if you voted YES on the grounds the government argued then your not a racist just somebody who was fooled into voting for a racist proposal. EU migration policy is racist and it kills hundreds of people every year and that is what we were being 'brought into' line with.

Unfortunately the majority of those who voted yes appear to have done so for racist reasons as shown by the RTE exit poll. Screaming 'racist' at them won't change their minds but the left at least needs to acknowledge the reality of the situation if it is to start to work out how to counter act it.

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 14:02

**Lets look at it this way, an Argentinian couple on a protracted holiday to Ireland, arrive here and during their lets say 3 months, the lady gives birth to a beautiful baby girl. She is given Irish Citizenship, so they bring her home and she never again sets foot on Irish soil. Where is the point in her having a dual citizenship. If she doesn't use it, then it is pointless.**

Where is the HARM in her having Irish citizenship if she never uses it?

I just do NOT get this argument.

What difference does it make to anyone if someone can claim citizenship but not avail of it? It does you no harm, it does me no harm

And yet this is enough of a reason to change the constitution, which is the framework document that sets out the legal basis of all of our laws?

The fact that some person could end up with citizenship they don't use is not a reason to take away the possibility for people who will make use of their citizenship citizenship.

**If, however, someone is born here and they then have to come back here to Gain Citizenship, then we will cut out people having a dual citizenship.**

No we won't. Dual citizenship will still be perfectly legal for all the Irish citizens born abroad. Ireland does not demand that you only hold Irish citizenship. I don't know where you are getting this from.

Also, what is the problem with dual citizenship? Who does it hurt?

Also, what's with the rage against these perceived "spongers" Irish or otherwise?

Specifically who are they? Specifically what harm are they doing to you or to others?

Please explain to me what it is that has you looking over your shoulder all the time, sure that you're being fucked by somebody.

by Jim Williams Wed Jun 16, 2004 14:31

Hi Dee,

You can't just hand out Irish Citizenship to everyone willy nilly. The harm it causes is that it devalues Irish citizenship. The other problem with giving everybody born here the passport is that these "irish" people are entitled to social welfare money and we cannot afford to be paying social welfare to half of Africa or indeed anywhere else.

For all those screaming for a nationwide petition - the nationwide petition was 80 -20, there will be no appeal.

Regards,

Jim Williams

by Me Wed Jun 16, 2004 14:35

Not unless you are CJH.

by Jim Williams Wed Jun 16, 2004 14:37

I tend 2 agree with you on that one - that man was very powerful.

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 14:47

**You can't just hand out Irish Citizenship to everyone willy nilly. The harm it causes is that it devalues Irish citizenship. The other problem with giving everybody born here the passport is that these "irish" people are entitled to social welfare money and we cannot afford to be paying social welfare to half of Africa or indeed anywhere else.**

Who ever said anything about willy-nilly?

There have always been conditions placed on Irish citizenship.

I also can't see how citizenship is devalued by giving it to more people unless you're applying crude laws of economics to something to which they don't really apply.

Actually before accession the law was changed so that nobody is automatically entitled to social welfare money anymore, even if they are Irish.

This was to stop the last "flood" of immigrants we were expecting to be pouring in from Eastern Europe.

by Jim Williams Wed Jun 16, 2004 15:20

Hi Dee,

This is a fact, every irish child born in ireland up to this day receives child benefit. Another fact for you, the government is actively considering the idea of removing child benefit from asylum seeking parents - obviously to make them drop their claims and to prevent them coming in the first place.

So the idea that migrants do not get any money from is state is just rubbish - everybody on the street can see this. I tend to agree that Irish people struggle to get social welfare money (means testing etc) but asylum seekers have no problems .....yet. This state is about to make some major changes to our immigration policy which which will make it very difficult for the rampant abuse to continue. 80 - 20 says it all, people have demanded a change.

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 15:25

**Another fact for you, the government is actively considering the idea of removing child benefit from asylum seeking parents - obviously to make them drop their claims and to prevent them coming in the first place.
**

So you think that people should be prevented from seeking asylum in Ireland?

by Jim Williams Wed Jun 16, 2004 15:44

Dee,

The Dublin Convention states that those seeking asylum should do so in the 1st safe country, Ireland is not that country. You tell me how 11,900 (only last year ) Nigerians got to Ireland as the 1st safe country - rubbish. They availed of our silly citizenship rules and had "irish babies" to get leave 2 remain. This measure stops this crazy level of abuse.

So to answer your question, I am against the bogus asylum seekers - the extremely small % of genuine claimants are welcome. In the coming years you should know that the European policy towards asylum seekers will be similar to that of Australia.

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 16:04

So basically, we don't have any asylum obligations apart from to people from the UK?

Seriously, I'm baffled by this.

Because if just by claiming asylum in Ireland from Nigeria your claim was de facto invalid, then why leave people in the country long enough to have babies?

Why process their claims if they're not entitled to claim here?

Also, why is the EU going to the extreme levels of Australia to keep asylum seekers out while its policy is also to attract more workers?

We need more workers, these people can work. It could all be so simple.

If it weren't for the political capital to be gained by scapegoating immigrants.

Like you said 80-20 speaks for itself - there's a lot of votes to be bought with xenophobia.

by The Department Wed Jun 16, 2004 16:24

As of September 03, we have started the process of automatically not hearing the claims of people from Nigeria (and many other countries) as Ireland is in all instances not their 1st safe port of call.

Ireland's EU partners will all help in the process of cutting bogus asylum seekers out of the process. (The Dublin Convention)

I agree with earlier comments, this country will not tolerate the abuse of our welfare and citizenship regulations!

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 16:35

The only way to stop the abuse of a welfare system is to do away with it entirely.

Where people can potentially gain, people will take advantage.

I agree that it makes sense to limit the extent to which people can abuse a system that provides good to others.

But you also need to make sure that you don't damage the extent to which good is provided to the deserving in your zeal to root out abusers.

Do you have any figures that show how much money is being spent on "bogus" asylum seekers?

How do those amounts compare to "bogus" welfare claims by upstanding Irish citizens?

Are we just pissed off at the principle of being taken for a ride, even by people in desperate circumstances. Or is genuine hardship being caused to Irish people because of all these asylum "scammers"?

by xenophon Wed Jun 16, 2004 16:48

I am not convinced that people were voting from racist motives. I was tallying votes from Artane and noticed two YES referendum ballots , which were separated from local election ballots which had first preferences for Ritchie Browne of SWP and Euro for ML McDonald and Higgins!! Figure that one out. I dont think the referendum actually impigned on peoples consciousness and heard almost nobody talk about it at the count - either pro camp being triumphalist or no despndnet. Simply was not an issue compared to the elections.

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 16:52

Just because you vote for people who help you not have to pay a tax doesn't mean you cannot be racist.

Lots of people who want to give the two fingers to the government, are rabidly nationalistic and paranoicly xenophobic.

That makes a combination of SWP, Sinn Fein, and a Yes vote just about right.

by The Department Wed Jun 16, 2004 16:55

Dee,

The total spent on asylum in the last year 02 - 03 was in the order of 1.45 billion Euro - an unacceptable amount. We are not going to remove our social welfare system just because of its abuse by asylum seekers, however we will introduce measures that will make abuse more difficult.

We also plan deportations on a much larger scale than previously seen.

by Department Wed Jun 16, 2004 17:20

Thank you for the figures.

Why is that figure unacceptable?

Sorry to sound like a spa, but I can't accept that it's too much just because it sounds like a lot.

Can you offer comparisons in terms of spending on other things?

Also, could the amount spent on asylum be reduced in other ways, such as allowing asylum seekers to work?

Also, is it feasible to allow asylum seekers to work? Could it cause more problems if applications are refused?

Last question, I promise. Do you really think changing the citizenship laws will have a big effect on asylum claims (not including other exclusionist policies)?

by Dee Wed Jun 16, 2004 17:21

Sorry, last comment by me. Got a bit confused there.

by Department Wed Jun 16, 2004 18:55

The spending level on asylum claims is unacceptable as this amount of capital could be used in many other areas such as education, where many children go to school in prefabs. It is a lot of money when you consider the entire budget for the military in 03 was 863 million and tourist got 386 million. With the savings from bogus asylum cases we will save hundreds of millions.

The change in our citizenship laws will save this state a lot of money in welfare payments, remember we are still one of the most liberal countries in the EU. Allowing asylum seekers to work is unworkable for a multitude of reasons, mostly because that is what a work permit is for.

by Phil Boylan Wed Jun 16, 2004 21:20

Well to answer, I don't think ANYONE should have dual citizenship, whether it be a Nigerian child born in Dublin or an Irish kid born in Borneo. It just is pointless, if the person wants to go live in that country in later life then allow them to have to work to get there. It will prevent people just working anywhere. It'll lead to more people, maybe making better decisions than just hopping off to a foreign country for a while. You see I do not think dual citizenships are beneficial at all, unless you intend on travelling extensively to that country, wheres the point.

I myself have been interested in living in the Benelux region. I love that area. I have decided to learn the language, I have started to apply for jobs. I am aware that as a member of the EU it'll be easier for me. But I still see that I have to pass certain criteria to maintain my life there. This is appropriate. I am more inclined to move if I have started to put stuff into place.

I don't feel that I was fooled, I feel that I have voted the way I chose because it is how I feel and I agreed that at last the government were doing something that MIGHT work better than the old system did.

As for handing out the right of Citizenship, do you think that people who have any kids here are immediately entitled to social welfare. I believe that unless you have contributed somethig to our economy, then get your hands off my money. The money that was spent on asylum seekers, 1.45 billion, needs to be scaled down. Why? Coz its not our fucking job to look after any and every fucker who decides to leave their country.

I pay my taxes, I happen to think I pay too much, for what I do, but how and ever, I detest any person who messes with their taxes or doesn't pay em. Be they politician/student/family member/friend. You should pay the taxes that you are allocated. I have grassed some of my friends in college for fucking with college grants and taxes, coz I see it as them being a bunch of cowboys, who are stealing money from me and my family. Why should you not pay your taxes?? I mean, you have to pay tax to avail of certain amenities. Any person who has a legitimate right to claim social welfare, I feel should get my money, give em more, if we can afford it. Any spongers are fucking scum. Why do they have the need to feel that just coz they are who they are, they don't FEEL like paying taxes, Fine fuck the cunts in jail and lets see what they'd prefer. Paying taxes or imprisonment.

If you must know I hate spongers so much coz, you, as a citizen have a DUTY to make this country as good as it can be. Anybody who does not avail of that duty is not worthy of any of the benefits that goes with such a duty. That duty means: preventing others from attacking your country, physically/economically etc, it means you do not allow people to sponge your fellow citizens money, why should they be allowed to fly-free while the concerned citizen follows the law.

I digress, basically the Ref was passed, getting all pissy and bent out of shape will not change that. Calling Irish people racists for voting Yes will only alienate possible allies from any future campaigns. It shows that you are as alarmist as the government. Why do you think the government, never released a document, saying that you are not a Racist for voting Yes. Coz they realised how ludicrous such a claim is.

As for Pat B., well maybe, when you become Overlord, we can all just accept your VOTE as the right one and hope you don't get angry when it all fails. If we are so ignorant, then fuck off to a 'decen't country. I hear China is nice this time of year. Just remember the Premieres name and don't practice any religions. You'll fit right in

BTW I am not against all Asylum Seekers, I believe that the majority of them are here for their own safety and well being and that they should have a right ao apply for citizenship and then do everything and anything to get such citizenship. The majority of AS are decent upstanding members of society who work extremely hard for their pay and lead good and honest lives. The bad ones should be fucked home and lets see how they feel when they are back in the country they disliked. I tell you, there'd be less bogus claims for asylum if they brought in a tougher policy. If they started pointing out that Ireland was not the FIRST safe call port, and turfed em back, you'd have no-one wasting time with needless applications, leaving the authorities time to allow in the workers that we require. And I don't mean the labourers, I mean anyone who wants to to come to our country and actually work. Let them in. Toss the spongers home.

by Phuq Hedd Wed Jun 16, 2004 22:35

QUOTE: "I have grassed some of my friends in college for fucking with college grants and taxes, coz I see it as them being a bunch of cowboys"

ANSWER: Sweet.

by Phil Boylan Wed Jun 16, 2004 23:05

I would not consider anyone who steals off me to be a friend

Now that would mean anyone who steals from my house, or steals off me by proxy. If they are messing around and in college and collecting a grant, which I did not recieve, and then claim other social welfare means that they do NOT deserve, then it is right to grass em out. Fuck em, would you tolerate someone stealing off you??

If you would then you are a fool.

Why tolerate people who fuck the system and force you to pay extra taxes, or make your friends and family pay extra taxes.

by ;-) Wed Jun 16, 2004 23:18

for you are if you oppose dual citizenship.

& you have obviously never enjoyed such a deep and rewarding friendship where such things can be forgiven and forgotten.

oh dear. you're a dissident and anti-social.
You'll be on the ALF list soon.

by Phil Boylan Thu Jun 17, 2004 00:53

I view any person from the North of Ireland as Northern Irish, I don't think they should have dual citizenship. I think they should have their own passports, and all other amenities that go with citizenship. I know maybe one day Ireland will be whole again, I pray it will happen in my life time, but only if the majority of the population wish it to be so and send that answer to the unfortunate rulers of the North, Britain. Until then, fighting, Dual Citizenship, and all the other bullshit is basically just prolonging a problem. If the majority of the people up North want to join Ireland then so be it. If they wanna stay with Britain then so be it. I am aware however that with the current bunch of psychos that still exist up there, both Loyalists and Republican, either move is the same as putting a match to a tin of petrol. I am sure I do not have an answer that would appease both sides and it is something I wish I did. The only answer I could attempt would be to just give em their own passports, but then the whole are they british citizens/servants bullshit starts!! Talk about a fucking minefield!

As for my friends, I KNOW that none of my friends would be as foolish. They see why it is wrong and as such would never do it. I would never question my friends morals of loyalty. I also know that if they were to do it, they would be forgiven but I doubt if I could ever trust em again. And Vice versa, friendships should never involve breaking the law. If they do then the people involved need to rethink their friends. I am not trying to sound magnamanous (sic) or anything like that, but if you are hanging around with people who behave in such manner, are you surprised when you yourself are accused of such moral wrong doings.

Its something I thought you guys would get, you seem very pleased to call anyone involved with the Yes campaign as a bunch of Racists. Anyone who doesn't immediately denounce war is a war-mongerer, anyone who admits that they believed in the war in Iraq at first is akin to Bush. Its gross over simplification things are never that clear cut.

Basically what I am saying is: My friends have never caused me to question them before and I know they never will. They would never get involved in Fraud or morally defunct behaviour. They know how far they can push things legally and know where to draw the line.

by Phuq Hedd Thu Jun 17, 2004 02:57

Above "Phil Boylan" says that he "grassed" out his friends. Now he changes the story to:
QUOTE: "I KNOW that none of my friends would be as foolish. They see why it is wrong and as such would never do it. I would never question my friends morals of loyalty."

QUOTE: "friendships should never involve breaking the law"
ANSWER: Even if it's a bad law? Like, supposing there were a desperate asylum seeker hiding somewhere you'd feel "morally obliged" to turn them in to the authorities? Or if one of your mates did something stupid you'd turn them in?


QUOTE: "you seem very pleased to call anyone involved with the Yes campaign as a bunch of Racists."
ANSWER: Because it's a racist referendum promoted in a racist manner. And this interpretation is backed up by the opinion polls which canvassed people's reasons for voting for the referendum.

QUOTE: "Anyone who doesn't immediately denounce war is a war-mongerer"
ANSWER: Yes.

QUOTE: ", anyone who admits that they believed in the war in Iraq at first is akin to Bush."
ANSWER: I've not seen that argued. That person would share the common trait with Bush that they wanted a war and were prepared to kill innocent civilians with no evidence of a threat from WMDs. But unlike Bush that person probably isn't rich and probably didn't actually create or oversee the creation of the lies about Iraq. So at best that person is a gullible nitwit with no morals.

QUOTE: " Its gross over simplification things are never that clear cut."
ANSWER: Try spinning that around on its head and applying it to your own arguments.

QUOTE: "Basically what I am saying is: My friends have never caused me to question them before and I know they never will. They would never get involved in Fraud or morally defunct behaviour. They know how far they can push things legally and know where to draw the line."
ANSWER: I don't believe you. You stated clearly above that you'd grassed out your friends in college. Now you telll us that you didn't and they wouldn't behave like that anyway.

by Donnacha Thu Jun 17, 2004 13:08

"The spending level on asylum claims is unacceptable as this amount of capital could be used in many other areas such as education, where many children go to school in prefabs. It is a lot of money when you consider the entire budget for the military in 03 was 863 million and tourist got 386 million. With the savings from bogus asylum cases we will save hundreds of millions."

Seeing as you're "the Department", could you give us a breakdown of where the money is spent, please? How much of it goes on incompetent and ineffective bureaucracy? How much of it goes into the pockets of landlords in the shape of deliberate and ridiculous overspend on hostel accomodation? And how little of it actually goes on Ireland's obligations to asylum seekers?

D.

by Firewoman Thu Jun 17, 2004 13:55

Most people were very confused about what the reffferendum was actually doing. I myself spent a day looking through the lit to try and understand it. Not everyone has that luxury. To interperet the results as racism is to ignore how confusing the refferendum was. The government promised to introduce legislation following it. The three year residency thing. All led to a confused press and a lot of misinformation.

by Phil Boylan Thu Jun 17, 2004 22:15

So by your rationale every person you know, no matter what is a friend and always has been. Maybe I have not been as fortunate as you and I have in the past, had people whom I assumed were friends and pulled shit on me. I suppose I should re-iterate, at one point whilst I was in college, people whom I thought were my friends did stuff that I thought was foolish and fraudulent and as such they went from being my friends, to people I did not like anymore. But how exactly could I portray them any better!

As for your beliefs, the ref was not racist to the people who voted believing they were not racist.

Being gullible, well I suppose you have always had perfect sight and known at all times who to follow and who to believe at all times. You have never been misled by anyone, anywhere, EVER. Just coz you were misled does not make youa fool, it makes you someone who believed that what they thought was happening might have been beneficial.

The war on Iraq, if I am correct, I believe the Anti-war movement were claiming at the start, or even before the start that over 100,000 innocent iraqis would die. Now as far as I am aware the figure has only barely reached one fifth of that. I am not arguing that those deaths were acceptable, but as someone who read the lit the Ani-war were releasing and knew that even if the americans did a scorched earth policy, they would not reach those levels, I hoped that the death tolls would be, whilst not acceptable, but more affordable, not saying innocent loss of life is good, but obviously even You must have realised that to overthrow Saddam, even without America, many innocent people would die. Or maybe you were a gullible fool and thought that when the Anti-war people said 100,00o dead, they were being glib or liberal!!!

Either way, I have noticed that on this site whenever you have any argument to give, you always go on the offensive, maybe you should go and get some anger management courses and try to not be so confrontational.

by the quiet man Thu Jun 17, 2004 22:34

Hey Philly boy, we're Irish here not Yanks ... we don't do anger management courses ....
When we're angry we let it rip ...... let it all hang out ...... try it it's good for ya ......

We don't need some overpaid slimy-smooth "professional" middle class American cloned asshole with a plastic smile to tell us how to contain our RIGHTEOUS ANGER .......

And when some smart ass Yank comes over and tries to tell us what we need, then he'd better watch out 'cos he's likely to get a puck in the gob ...........

Just like they're getting a proper pasting out in Iraq right now .......

There's often a good reason for being ANGRY ....... and woe betide those who end up at the receiving end of our WRATH ......

by ;-) Thu Jun 17, 2004 22:54

when in doubt always put 3 "eses", it skilllfuly passses the problem to the typesettter,
and you can always blame it on a virus that speeed up your key repeat mode.
so do you believe in northern ireland or ulster?

by Phuq Hedd Fri Jun 18, 2004 00:53

QUOTE: "So by your rationale every person you know, no matter what is a friend and always has been."
ANSWER: I did not write that, nor did anything that I wrote logically imply that.

QUOTE: "I suppose I should re-iterate, at one point whilst I was in college, people whom I thought were my friends did stuff that I thought was foolish and fraudulent and as such they went from being my friends, to people I did not like anymore."
ANSWER: Changing the story is not "re-iteration".

QUOTE: "As for your beliefs, the ref was not racist to the people who voted believing they were not racist."
ANSWER: This is the closest thing to the core of the argument in any of your posts. You insist that if you don't call yourself a racist then you aren't one. You deny that it is possible for others to legimately perceive your actions as having racist implications, thus making you a racist. Your belief is simply that unless you can be shown to act in one of the more overt, explicit forms of racism (such as hanging out a sign saying "no dogs, no Irish, no blacks" or denying people a job on the basis of their skin colour) then you are not a racist. The important thing isn't what you _believe_ about yourself, but how your actions measure up against some sort of objective, non-shifting standards and definitions. One such might be whether the result of your "yes" vote is to solidify a system of illegal immigration, illegal jobs and desparation which mainly affects people that are of African origin.

QUOTE: "Being gullible, well I suppose you have always had perfect sight and known at all times who to follow and who to believe at all times."
ANSWER: Actually I'm quite gullible. I initially thought that there had to be something to it after Blair, Bush and most of the mainstream media were willing to put their reputations on the line. I still didn't think that they were justified in an aggression against Hussein, or that the UN sanctions were anything but a filthy slaughter of children. However after Bush, Blair and every journalist of "repute" failed to produce any evidence that wouldn't make a child suspicious I copped on. Anyone that didn't _is_ more gullible than me or more of a fantasist that wanted to believe that capitalist leaders act from moral motives.

QUOTE: "You have never been misled by anyone, anywhere, EVER. Just coz you were misled does not make youa fool, it makes you someone who believed that what they thought was happening might have been beneficial."
ANSWER: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Since that period of gullibility I've been doing a lot of reading of history to make sure that I don't get fooled again. If you're going to make the "argument of innocence" above then it has to be based upon genuine effort to find out the truth. Otherwise it's a non-impressive mental crutch to avoid the truth.

QUOTE: "The war on Iraq, if I am correct, I believe the Anti-war movement were claiming at the start, or even before the start that over 100,000 innocent iraqis would die. Now as far as I am aware the figure has only barely reached one fifth of that. I am not arguing that those deaths were acceptable,"
ANSWER: Similar to the Chomsky argument about the possible millions of starvation deaths in Afghanistan. The point is that you and "our leaders" were willing to risk those deaths. They and you made the moral calculation that in the immortal words of Madeleine Albright about the >= 500,000 Iraqi kids: "it was worth it". Most of those high estimates were accepted as possibilities by intelligence sources and analysts and in some cases actually came from them. It's good luck that they proved to be wrong (although it'll be interesting to see how the Depleted Uranium poisoning, lack of clean water and other "environmental factors" play out in Iraqi mortality statistics).

QUOTE: " but as someone who read the lit the Ani-war were releasing and knew that even if the americans did a scorched earth policy, they would not reach those levels, I hoped that the death tolls would be, whilst not acceptable, but more affordable, not saying innocent loss of life is good, but obviously even You must have realised that to overthrow Saddam, even without America, many innocent people would die. "
ANSWER: So what you're saying is that you DO think those deaths were acceptable? You seem to have trouble with being straight with yourself and your beliefs.

QUOTE: "Or maybe you were a gullible fool and thought that when the Anti-war people said 100,00o dead, they were being glib or liberal!!!"
ANSWER: I remember feeling that even if it's one person that dies then they should be the one to get to make the choice to risk death, not me or some fat American oil consumer. And certainly not a moral equivocator called "Phil Boylan" that "grasses out" his friends in college.

QUOTE: "Either way, I have noticed that on this site whenever you have any argument to give, you always go on the offensive, maybe you should go and get some anger management courses and try to not be so confrontational."
ANSWER: Go suck your thumb. If you look back at your debut in this "discussion" your posts are larded with self-righteous, bombastic obscenities about "scroungers" and fuck-this and fuck-that. If you want to be treated nicely then behave nicely. I take posters as I find them and I found you to be: rude, equivocating and evasive.

by babybromley Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:37

with him in his/her anger, if not quite in the manner of expressing it. Phil's equivocation on the referendum is silly. Is rape not a rape if the rapist believes that it is consensual sex? Or if he believes he has the right to sex at will? I doubt you think that, so why in the case of of a referendum do you assume that intent or concsciousness over-rules consequences. The fact of this referendum is that it will secure unequal - and I would argue unjust - consequences for minority groups present in Ireland today. There will be a racial dimension to this inequality, because it will be primarily experienced by black or brown people who originate from the so called third world. Just because Irish people may have believed themselves to be non-racist, this does not absolve them responsibility for the results of the vote. Lots of people were confused, certainly that is true. But is it the whole truth? We have read, heard and seen enough to be certain that many Irish people - and to be honest I am not going to get into a percentage argument, because it is a problem regardless - do despise immigrants and Nigerian ones in particular. I am interested in how we can address this, fight back or at least make something constructive and useful out of this sorry fiasco.

by Mark Robins Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:29

The answer to that is - you can't do anything now, the yes vote has won and legislation will be put into place regardless of how many protests you or anyone else makes.

You talk about the real "racial dimension to this inequality", its true there is a racial dimension to this, but thats because they (Nigerian's) were the main perpetrators of the abuse of our citizenship laws!!

The fact of the matter is our laws had to be changed and indeed will be changed to stop this abuse from ever happening again - the people have spoken!!

Regards,

Mark Robins

by Northsider Sun Jun 20, 2004 17:56

Interesting that people always single out the Nigerians. The immigrants of African origin are made up of people from all parts of Africa, and Africans are only a fraction of all the people who have moved here in the past ten years.
Whenever I heard the referendum issue being discussed it was always the "Nigerians" who were mentioned. No mention of white Lithunians, Russians, etc. So colour was definitely a factor in the referendum results. It was a racist referendum, and before any of the 'yes' crowd start jumping up and down complaining that they are "not racist" lets be clear, I am not putting them in the same category as the tattooed skinhead bnp bonehead types, but I do think that the 'yes' people should now re-examine their thinking. I accept that the term "racist" may be upsetting to people who never thought of themselves as "racist", but clearly their xenophobia has caused them to make a decision which gives comfort to the real hardline bnp types.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Try to get to meet the newcomers. It will help to get rid of your xenophobia, and it may even prevent ye making the same silly mistakes in the future.

by Anne Sun Jun 20, 2004 22:00

Someone once told me, "If you don't vote, don't b**ch. I know it feels like our vote does not count and maybe it doesn't: too many of us in complacency that we allow governments to take our votes. Glancing at voters turnouts in Ireland, I saw under 50% easy. The other 50±% obviously felt like their vote did not matter or took the "I'll show the government and not vote cos I am such a rebel": You give away your rights and then complain about how unjust things are. The government banks on your empathy. I think politics is a load of crap but I do feel if people were more proactive in putting in their two cents, that citizens' voices may be worth a sh*t.

by Donnacha Mon Jun 21, 2004 16:40 London

Anyone who doesn't vote in a referendum is an idiot. It's completely different to not voting (or spoiling, my preferred option) in a election of "representatives". A referendum is a clear question: do you agree or not - people who have no opinion should bloody get one, or at least vote no. These days, Irish referenda are reactionary and regressive and voting no usually leaves things in the more preferrable state they were before.

by Yankee doodle Mon Jun 21, 2004 17:20

The referendum result shows Ireland to be a backward, racist country. Contrast this with the U.S. where anyone born there is automatically a citizen. And where that great President, Ronald Reagan, amnestied all illegal immigrants in 1980. President Bush also wants to give legal residence to foreigners who are in the U.S. illegally. Remember that when you protest against him.

by Donnacha Wed Jun 23, 2004 18:44

Ahem, George Bush waved the possibility of granting citizenship to illegals to persuade Fox to vote with the US on the second Iraq resolution (that never happened). Note how little has been said on the issue since then?

Not that I'm defending the racist shite in Ireland, though.

by pc Wed Jun 23, 2004 19:20

well i think the thing i didn't realsie until i started reading up on stuff before te refis that nigeria is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGEEE country with a population of 130 million so that doe account for the large number coming here and elsewhere in europe comapred to other foreign nationals we get a lot of polish professionals here too with a country with a pop of 60 million

by Joe Public Wed Jun 23, 2004 23:37

1. We closed off a loophole in our constitution. People can still come here to claim asylum. That hasn't changed. We have brought our citizenship policy in line with other EU states. So if we're racist because of this, so is every other country in Europe.
2. The U.S. gives citizenship because it was built on immigration(unlike European countries) and it now has such a large population of immigrants that the government would hameorage votes if they altered their policy.

by j26 Thu Jun 24, 2004 01:20

The simple fact is that 80% voted yes to the referendum.
At least 63% of these voted yes for racist reasons (according to the exit polls - it could be 77% if you include the last reason)

That translates to at least 50.4% (or 61.6% if we include the last reason) of those who voted actually voted for racist reasons. That's the race card being played very effectively in my book.

More than half of the voters that counted in the referendum (the ones who actually turn up and vote) are racist in some way, shape or form. There is no way of dressing that up to spin it as non racist.

by Catherine Molloy Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:29

I tend to agree with Joe Public, by voting yes for the referendum we just closed off a big loophole in our system. All we did is bring it into line with every other nation in Europe. By protecting our system we protect the whole EU (as the chen case demonstrated). Finally I'd like to say to those who voted no to stop bitching on about the result - it was the decision of 80% of the country to change the law - life goes on!


Catherine

by happy henry Wed Jul 07, 2004 00:30

too many immigrants r bad 4 wages and keep rent and house prices high.It's a fair point to control numbers.

by gerry k Wed Jul 07, 2004 14:39

McDowell is pro-immigration coz he reckons it's good for business profit. Asylum was a problem and had to be dealt with. Since May 1 there HAS been a considerable influx of Eastern Europeans. If you're unskilled and unemployed you're more likely now to stay that way since the 80s thanks to this overly liberal policy. But if you go to the UK you're up against this there too-unlike during the 80s.
What a mess!

by Andy Wed Jul 07, 2004 17:08

"Finally I'd like to say to those who voted no to stop bitching on about the result - it was the decision of 80% of the country to change the law - life goes on!"

It was a majority decision to ban divorce and abortion as well. Majority decisions are not always the best or proper decisions.

I'm not going to bitch about the result.

Rather, I have enclosed a recipe for the 80% Yes vote if you use these ingredients your sure to get the same 80% landslide every time

1. Take one largely ill informed electorate

2. Add a sprinkle of McDowell sauce (too much will lead to poisoning)

3. Spice up with Media Hysteria (tabloid works best, but brodsheet seems to work just as well in some instances)

4. Stir with some ignorance and fear. (a good dose of confusion about EU workers, Immigrants and Refugees all molded together tends to do the trick)

5. Heap in a LabourSF inaction mix (this prevents agitation that could spoil the results)

6. Warning Do NOT contaminate this meal with any FACTS or it will spoil, and you may have an unpredictable outcome

by Happy Troll Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:42

The reason you're all unhappy is coz you are fundamentally anti-democratic. You want the People to be dictated to by third world people smugglers. Also your anti-democratic attitute comes out with your blaming the media and Government when, in truth, the media and high ranking civil service, in particular, is controlled and/or highly influenced by YOUR fellow travellers. True debate had so been stifled on this issue that when the chance came to vote the People clammered to be heard.
This result is a victory over would-be dictators like you.Your vicious attacks on the electorate reflects your essentially totalitarian tendencies.
The judgement of the people is as least as good as any of yours and morals are a private affair-learn some humility!

by happy troll Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:26

I sure america accepts all failed asylum seekers then? comparing apples and oranges maybe lad

america big-ireland not.

As for the Gore Vidal quote he is merely addressing the real problem of unprecedented global population size and the predicament of small western countries with too liberal policies . Many on this site would do well to study demographic trends and realise that controls are of the up-most importance. You take too much for granted! This isn't about Darwin it's about finite resourses.

by Crank McFourt Wed Aug 04, 2004 09:46

The US Department of Homeland Security now incorporates the former INS and Customs services. I reported two illegal Irish in San Francisco to their agents and they're being deported. I also received payment for the tip off. I urge all legal Irish in the US to do likewise.

by Al Wed Aug 04, 2004 22:48

So they did this ref ting so that people would take out some of their pissed offness on GUESS WHO? Yes all the people from a round the world who have brightened up our towns and cities and who have worked their arses off doing all the poxy jobs like nursing, catering, bar work and everything else.

-Your missing the point of this law, its not to stop foreign folk from entering and working in the country, its to curb illegal immigrants coming in and running amok.
I completely agree with allowing these hard working people into the state, the more the merrier I say but dont confuse them with criminals which is where this law is aimed.

I have to say, I am a garda and from purely my point of view I try to give everyone a fair shake regardless of colour, religion, etc but I have to say that I am coming across an awful lot of immigrnats commiting crime and that includes mainland europeans that have every legal EU right to be here. Keep the spongers out and welcome the hardworking, decent people with open arms. This also goes for refugees. With refugees there is a lot wrong with our system, let them in and let them work. That way they can provide for their families themselves which is what the majority want.
This law simply brings us in line with most other countries regarding citizenship.

As for the comments about Garda blueshirts, well our shirts are blue but what the hell are you giving out about us for? Did we march the voters in and pressure the result? We did nothing but still we get kicked, this was a fair vote in a democracy. If you cant accept majority decisions then please do go to Cuba and have no say in how your lives are run.
Oh and while Im speaking, calling people rascist because you dont like them just annoys them more and creates a bigger negative view. Have an African call you rascist for long enough and guess what? You will soon become one.