DGN Bush meeting on Sunday 2pm

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 13:24

Note the new web address at http://struggle.ws/dgn/index.php

Sundays meeting will include plans for Shannon as well as the Dublin march the Saturday before Bush arrives and the Critical Mass that will leave this to go to Shannon for the Bush protests on Friday and Saturday.

by GGer Thu Jun 03, 2004 13:47

Its important to have a big turnout on Sunday so that DGN decides its policies and its not just left to those who see themselves as the DGN 'Organisers'. On the GG lists these 'Organisers' have taken a very conservative stance and are indistinguishible from IAWM. They seem to want to avoid any 'confrontation' with the cops.

I dont see how this 'confrontation' is to be avoided if we are to make a statement at Shannon rather than just an IAWM style march. Pushing through the Garda lines is not violence. What is needed is a padded bloc at Shannon to push the cops aside so that we can carry out a citizens inspection for WMD.

We also need the padded bloc to force our way through the cops and secret service to make a citizens arrest of Bush. We may not succeed but we should at least try.

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 14:06

Organisers are things trots have because they don't think people are capable of organising themselves. Your language again gives you away puppy, now slink off home.

by GGer Thu Jun 03, 2004 14:11

Any activist who suggests any real action for Shannon is immediately jumped on by certain 'leading DGN members'. If this is not the case then all you have to do is publish the relevant exchanges here.

Some of you 'Anarchists' are no different from Leninists. You cant tolerate any dissent. You should realise that different people hold different opinions. If you want conformity where no one ever challenges you then you should join the SWP.

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 14:32

Lets take you at face value GGer for a moment.

You seem to be objecting to the debate that is happening on the DGN list at the moment. Now I know to those involved with trot parties debate can be a bit of a shock when you are used to the leadership arriving with the posters and leaflets made up and telling you where your stall is next week. But for a lot of the rest of us its part of life.

How does debate work? Well one person puts forward a point of view and then someone else puts forward an opposing point of view. Sometimes lots of people jump in and put forward lots of points of view.

Everyone pays some attention to what is being said and uses that (and often what they think of the person saying it) to form or change their own opinion . Shocking isn't it.

It's only trots who seem to mistake a exchange of opinons for being 'jumped on'. I guess this is a side effect of expecting revalation to come from the leader, disagreement, especially heated disagreement can be quite shocking and even upsetting. Small kids often have the same problem.

I note BTW that you haven't contributed to the actual discussion on the list which would suggest you have little interest in what decision is actually reached.

by GGer Thu Jun 03, 2004 14:38

Both the Ambush and DGN 'leaders' have stated that it is now too late to be suggesting 'confrontational' actions. Activists only job is to turn up and obey orders from AWI and amBush.

Why not debate the issues instead of trying to demonise and crush all opposition? Tellus what actions you support at Shannon.

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 14:58

The funny thing about trots is that they imagine everyone works the way they do. There are no 'leaders' which is why the debate is taking place in the first place. If we had leaders to make these decisions for us the discussion would be taking place in secret in a back room and the first thing the members would know of it was when one of the party leaders was suddenly 'outside the party' and being attacked by it.

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:08

Just realised that all the references to mailing lists may be a bit mysterous to some. Actually anyone interested can follow and even join in the debate by joining the grassroots-network list detailed below. You'll notice that Mr Provocation has not actually bothered making his views known on the list which reminds you of 'George O'Toole' does it not? See http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=65037

grassroots-network

The grassroots network mailing list is a national mailing list open to everybody in Ireland (and beyond) who are interested in discussing Grassroots ideas or activities. This list often has a lot of traffic. Especially in the run-up to big events there may be 10-20 mails a day. Happily, you can also subscribe to a digested version where you get all of the daily posts together in a single mail.

To subscribe: send an email to [email protected] or visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/grassroots-network

grassroots-news


The grassroots news mailing list is where all news, press releases and announcements from Dublin Grassroots are sent. There is normally only a couple of mails a week to this list, so it shouldn't be a burden on your inbox.

To subscribe: send an email to [email protected] or visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/grassroots-news

by GGer Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:31

What is going on? All I have done is suggest that activists turn up on Sunday and support proposals foe DA. Several prominent members of DGN and amBush have opposed any 'confrontations' at Shannon. They say it is to late to even discuss this now.

Why doesnt Joe want a good turnout on Sunday, does he want the views of his clique to prevail if there is a low turnout? Dont let thois happen! Turn up in your droves!

Support Direct Action at Shannon! Lets push through the Garda and Secret Service lines and carryout a citizens arrest of Bush!

by Bakunin Watch Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:38

Terry from Galway, Aileen, Conor and Chekov from the WSM have all opposed those who support DA on the list. It looks as if Joe is just protecting the WSM. Joe is the WSM bootboy, he performs a similar role to that of Steven Boyd in the SP. All dissidents are crushed!

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:49

If you were serious about these suggestions 'George O'Toole' then you would be arguing for them not on indymedia but (or also?) on the grassroots-network list. And you would have argued for them at the last DGN meeting. You didn't, you are not and you won't be there on Sunday because 'George O'Toole'/Bakunin watcher / ***** ***** you are playing provocation and the sole purpose of your postings is to disrupt the demonstrations and sow disunity.

I'd be surprised if this little show is fooling anyone and I suspect your just bringing your own party into more and more disrepute as it stands on the sidelines and lets you play provocation. Your identity is widely known outside and inside the party, their lack of action is shocking and is something that will not be forgotten in a hurry. I'm sure once you have been outed they will send on the usual characters to disown you but at this stage the damage is done.

And 'Bakunin watch' that little bit of misdirection is fooling no one. Your shitty trail is easy to follow home and your leaving pissing in your own front garden a little late.

[Those curious about his identity should consider the timing of the latest upsurge in provocation ]

by Ray Thu Jun 03, 2004 16:00

You know, those kinds of allegations might go down okay if you're talking about backstabbing in the Fianna Fail parliamentary party, or arguments on the SWP central committee, because nobody is able to check up on them. All anyone has to go on is rumours.

But in this case, anyone can join the GG discussion list - I just did - and see what's being said. Which boils down to
1 AmBush outlines what they've agreed to do
2 A couple of people suggest trying to do some more
3 Others wonder how much more its possible to do, and say that AmBush's plans should be borne in mind
4 The next DGN meeting is confirmed for Sunday
5 ...er, that's it

Nobody has said the debate can't happen, nobody has suggested that activists should do what they're told, and everyone agrees to have a discussion.

I mean, really. I could understand why some people are desperate to stir the shit. But lads, next time choose a decent-sized molehill to turn into a mountain, and don't lie about shit that others can check up on. Trotsky and Lenin would be embarrassed by your amateurism.

by Brian C. - SP (personal cap) Thu Jun 03, 2004 16:10

If you think someone is acting as a "provacateur", provide your evidence and give them a chance to answer your charges. Making such allegations by insinuation is both unfair and irresponsible.

For what it's worth, I'm on the public grassroots list and the picture being painted of the discussions there by GGer/Bakuninwatcher/whoever is distorted to say the least. Different people are discussing their different ideas for the AWI/Ambush march, that's all. I don't see what's so wrong about that and anyone can join the list and find out for themselves.

I do think that your reaction to this distortion is itself massively disproportionate however. If I was to scream "provacateur" every time some anonymous arsehole misrepresented something to do with my own organisation, the Socialist Party, on this website I would be irreversably hoarse by now. And you would be amongst the first to tell me to get a sense of perspective.

by GGer Thu Jun 03, 2004 16:50

I have made my views known on the list. I am not going to reveal my identity so that I can be witch hunted by the WSM Cheka. With your wild accusations you are more of a Beria than a bootboy.

We still dont know what action Joe supports. Does he want to push through Garda lines to carry out a citizens arrest of Bush and citizens inspection of WMD at Shannon? Or does Joe want a quiet walk down the road?

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 16:55

Brian C. as you already know this is the work of one person and has been going on for well over a year. There are also random trolls but this one has a consistent pattern and is intent on doing real damage. His identity is obvious to people outside the party and I refuse to believe it is not known to people inside the party. In any case the hints already given are more than enough for you to identify who is being talked about and for you to talk to him directly yourself.

I've refrained from naming him because I'd like to see the party take action on its own initative, once his name is in the public domain any such action will be reactive which is not what is needed when faced with this sort of behaviour. There are issues of security and solidarity involved here that go well beyond one 'out of control' puppy.

In my opinion, which is not shared by many, a far more constructive end to this situation would be the party taking action. Others rather cynically think this puppy is allowed run out of control to 'prove' that indymedia cannot work without tighter regulation, a point argued by party members, here again and again.

For the more cynical it does not help that there is a constant pattern to this provocation. The puppy is allowed shit all over the place over a number of hours, as he gets excited and the trail becomes obvious a party member appears to claim that its not your puppy. (Although of late there are few direct denials and more 'how do you know its our puppy' evasions). The puppy then vanishes for a couple of days or weeks. I think most regular readers can now spot his wimperings from the moment of re-apperance, its odd that those who must know him better take hours to spot the tell tail signs.

Consider this. The lack of action has resulted in three things. First party members including yourself falling under suspicion simply because your email is easy to spot on the DGN list. Secondly the party being blamed for things that other groups have done because they have timed their actions to take advantage of the party's reputation here. [And I'll admit that I've fallen for this at least once.] And thirdly people drawing what may be quite valid conclusions about the internal political culture in the party because they are amazed by the prolonged natue of this behaviour and the toleration for it.

As I've been saying for month, do something about it!

by Ray Thu Jun 03, 2004 16:56

What do they do, send you to the salt mines? Driveyou out of town in a truck and shoot you? Throw you in prison until you confess to being a social fascist?
Tell me, please. I'm quivering in fear here, and it would help if I knew what to expect when the kicked down my...

HELP! HELP! THEY'RE HERE! SOMEBODY CALL GEORGE O'TO

by Brian C. Thu Jun 03, 2004 17:25

Once more:

I thought I knew who you were making insinuations against, although now I am actually less sure - which only goes to prove my point about argument through insinuation.

I have pointed out to you on a number of occasions that the Socialist Party is on the receiving end of far more in the way of anonymous misrepresentation and abuse on this website than the WSM and the DGN put together. In your current language, we are talking of far more regular "provocation".

Someone is misrepresenting the arguments that are taking place on the grassroots email list. There is a simple solution. Point people to that list, quote relevant extracts or simply answer them once. Then ignore the anonymous arsehole.

Your slightly hysterical yelps of "provacateur" only make you look irrational. I know because I have in my time responded with a similar level of outrage to anonymous misrepresentations of my own organisation and in retrospect I can see that rising to the bait in that way doesn't help.

If you really think that there is an individual engaged in a campaign of provocations against your organisation you have a responsibility to provide supporting evidence. Argument by insinuation is unfair and irresponsible.

If you are talking about a member of the Socialist Party, feel free to email me directly with your reasoning and your evidence and I will get back to you. If you are talking about a member of some other organisation I suggest that you contact them.

My email address is:

nigelUNDERSCOREirritableATyahooDOTcom

by James - WSM (personal capacity) Thu Jun 03, 2004 17:37

The fact that, like the George O'Toole episode, so-called GGer hasn't brought up his or concerns about 'leadership' or a clamping down on dissent either on the list or at a DGN meeting indicates that he is a lurker on our lists and a troll on indymedia.

What is happening on the list is, as Ray pointed out, rather mundane. People are putting forward various ideas. Incidentelly one of the WSMers, one the few of us to contribute, is sympathetic towards organising more than a simple march and as such is doing the opposite of 'clamping down' on dissent. He's arguing that point. And there are active grassrooters contributing to each side of the debate, rather than "organisers" wanting one thing. You couldn't get more active in organising stuff than the person putting forward the other side. I doubt anybody is fazed by people differing in opinion. It's handy to have ideas thrown out on lists before meetings so people can mull over their merits and come to an informed conclusion.

by Joe Thu Jun 03, 2004 17:43

Suggest you take it up with him

by pat c Thu Jun 03, 2004 17:45

Actually the National Archives (England and Wales) store low demand records in a salt mine in Cheshire. I suspect thats where the kidnapped Ray has been taken. I have been assured that the mine has a decent dehumidifier although thats for the benefit of the records rather than the workers I guess. In keeping with New Labour policies, this is run by a private company. Damn clever of these pesky Anarchist Securitatae to snap up the franchise.

Who will join me in the mission to rescue Ray?

by Buck Mulligan Thu Jun 03, 2004 17:53

Is Dublin Grassroots Gathering a WSM front? It's not just the SWP that have fronts. Their even on the WSM website. At least the SWP aren't that obvious.

by Ray Thu Jun 03, 2004 17:56

The WSM support the DGN. Therefore, the DGN is a WSM front! Its all so obvious.

How about you do something useful with that razor, fat boy?

by James - WSM (personal capacity) Thu Jun 03, 2004 18:07

WSM people consist of a minority of those active within the DGN and don't hold any controlling positions because there aren't any (e.g.. no steering committee that decides policy). Why not get involved and find out for yourself.

by Kennel Keeper Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:10

Looks as if Brian has brought the rogue spuppy under control. Keep him confined to kennels and suspend his online priviliges for a while. Good lad Brian.

by Diappointed Thu Jun 10, 2004 13:49

Just another cop out. The meeting decided that they would support Direct Action but if amBush and AWI disagreed with this they would all be good little boys and girls and march quitely. We all know that theres not a snowballs chance in hell of amBush/AWI agreeing to DA. The DGN meeting also opposed any splinter actions. Bad news for the Black Bloc.

Why not join up with the IAWM, theres no difference between you and them.

by Ray Thu Jun 10, 2004 13:53

An open meeting, at which different suggestions were made, collectively agreed on a course of action. Yep, just like the IAWM.