Message to Neo Nazi

by anti-fascist Mon May 24, 2004 10:54

Good to see the people are organising against the wnp/nazi thugs and bullies.

by Joe Mon May 24, 2004 12:02

Is the picture of the traffic sign intended as a warning of what will happen if the nazis don't take a left turn?

by Congrats Mon May 24, 2004 12:18

But keep up the good work

by Student Mon May 24, 2004 12:30

Keep it going, let us know if these thugs try to go to any other towns.

by Buzzby Mon May 24, 2004 17:45

To be completely impartial, why don't you adopt a similar McCarthyite attitude to left-wing and anarchist thugs?

by James Mon May 24, 2004 19:13

Who are?

by Foylesider Tue May 25, 2004 02:15

The SP are not involved in this campaign, they have nothing outside of Belfast.

by anti-fascist Tue May 25, 2004 03:37

People involved in anti-fascist work do not always want their identities publicised for obvious reasons. Please respect that and do not reply to someone fishing for information on an internet site.

Foylesider may be a fool or or he/she may be something more sinister. Either way nazi's do read this website. Do not give them free information.

by D Tue May 25, 2004 10:28

I know who is to the fore of the campaign and one should not believe all the talk of those who say that they are to the fore, or attempt to give the perception they are involved to a greater extent etc etc.

What I will say for now {as will write about such in the time ahead}


Is that the SP are no longer actively involved in the ARN, {which orgainsed one of the largest anti racist rallies seen in Belfast with the support from the trade union movement, and is now actively organising and mobilising working class communities},

Therefore are the SP rather than being actively involved in such a campaign involving working class communities and trade unions and indeed the trade union movement, mass demonstrations and working class community mobilisation, instead therefore choosing {for whatever reason} to be actively involved in small scale direct action tactics of persons in the main going in from the outside?

Well people can make up their minds on that one. And I shall write about this at a later date

For those though that are involved to the fore of the campaign while I may hold some difference in tactics I say though fair play to you in your stand against fascism.

by Rambling Moron Tue May 25, 2004 10:41

With more pointless rambling and boasting!

Have you no fucking wit at all that you think it is a good idea to be speculating about or implying who is or isn't involved in an anti-fascist action? On a website monitored by fascists? After being specifically asked not to?

by d Tue May 25, 2004 11:19

I imply that the SP are not involved in it as it is not their political approach and tactics, and I do not imply any others, Take of the Blinkers

by Joe Tue May 25, 2004 12:05

Ever heard of the game '20 questions' D.

You can provide information by telling people what is not true as well as what is true.

by Rambling Moron Tue May 25, 2004 12:07

Speculation as to who is involved in a particular anti-fascist action is unwanted, unnecessary and unhelpful. Particularly when it has been repeatedly made clear that the people involved do not want it.

That goes for negative speculation and implications as much as positive speculation. Saying "person/group x probably weren't involved" could have the effect of helping the nazis work out who actually is involved through eliminating possibilities. Alternatively it could have the effect of prompting someone in the know but just as naive as you to reply "oh, no person/group x were in fact involved".

I say "naive" here because most of the people who would start throwing around such speculation are in fact naive. I'm not sure if I should be so generous as to apply the word to you given that (a) you are engaging in speculation on this site after being specifically asked not to and (b) you are doing so because you think it will help you score a point off perceived rivals. Perhaps "stupid and dangerous" would be a better description than naive.

by Ali la Pointe - fite dem back / Never Again! Tue May 25, 2004 12:27

More of this kind of activity please. Let's snuff out the scurge of fascism before it takes a foothold in those communities that, with the current political vacuum, seem ripe for it.

The bottom line: where reason fails with someone peddling race-hate, hospital will do

by D Tue May 25, 2004 14:12

A touch of political inevitability from rambling moron, but a few brief points. Firstly I do not tend to see myself as naive or stupid.

In fact I know facists need no reason to single out a certain group or campaign etc. They will attack all socialist and left wingers, trade unionist, gay rights campaigners etc etc. In fact on some of their websites they have antiwar, NGO 's and trade unionists etc there..

They find out the majority of that info not through Indymedia and they attack people simply becuse they wish to attack them such is their ideology. Two nights ago for example they attacked the Chinese Welfare association simply because a no to racism sticker was on the window.

Moving on to speculation {and covert groups} then I can understand if such groups wish to remain unknown. Yet that's where I differ. The ARN due to its collective nature of holding all the minority ethnic groups, the trade unions, community organisations, solidarity, campaigns and youth groups etc has no problem speaking out with a collective voice with many persons to the forefront. As has been shown.

It is though when secret organisation and actions are done then thats a different matter, then everything and everyone has to remain unknown {apart from amongst themselves}and any talk of anything different then paranoia sets in. And of course such ways of organising will not be able to involve wider layers of activists due to its organisational nature.

Secondly by implying that one organisation is not involved thus setting of paranoia of facists then knowing who is involved, therein for me lies the problem. I believe a unitied stand by mumerious organisations, trade unions, and others in a untied campaign is the most effective way of taking them on. Therefore by saying that a small left wing organisation is not involved as I had stated above in relation to the ARN will make absolutely no difference.

That as I had said is where I and many others differ {again on tatics} as I had stated in relation to mobilisation of trade unions and communities.

I am not 'naive' enough to belive {and know} that orgainsed facists do not also find out such information in the most simpliest of way {even simplier that scanning Indymedia} as to who is involved in anti racism. But for those who wish to operate that way then I concede to your demand for secretcy. Albiet 'providing speculation' by saying it was against the political approach of 'one' organisation, {therefore I believed none involvement on their part} as it would contadict everything they had said about others who had used similar tactics.

So even if that means simply saying that one out of probably hundreds or indeed thousands of differing organisations and groups who may get involved in an antiracism camaign, that as one small left wing group is not involved, thus the facists will then know who is involved?. If so, therein lays the problem

Therefore it is not a case of who is or is not actively involved but a case that facists already know who would be actively involved and at the fore front of anti racism campaigns.

So my secret anon friend {rambling moron}therefore they to are not naive and it is they who are still the dangerous ones.


As stated, fair play to all involved in the campaign and in their stand.

by Dingbat Davy Tue May 25, 2004 19:43

Davy: "What I will say for now {ramble} ... Is that the SP are no longer actively involved in the ARN, {ramble} ... Therefore are the SP ... instead therefore choosing {for whatever reason} to be actively involved in small scale direct action tactics of persons in the main going in from the outside?"

Davy, you gotta be shitting me if you meant this to mean "I imply that the SP are not involved in it ".

I realise that your style is more confusing than o as if except that he has the excuse of doing it on purpose. Please make an effort to make your points clearer if you don't want people to get confused (or perhaps it's useful for people not to be sure what you're talking about, you can guage the reaction and go, 'sure, that's what I meant' as it appears in this case.

by Self-important gobshite Tue May 25, 2004 19:53

Physical force anti-fascism has a long and proud history in this country and elsewhere.

If you had the slightest sense of solidarity or decency you wouldn't be on this thread desperately trying to score some points off an organisation you perceive as a rival particularly when that mean speculating on the identities of the people involved in the Fascists Out Campaign. Nor would you be implying that the ARN's liberal path is the only path for anti-racists to take.

You are the most self-important and incoherent person I have ever encountered even on Indymedia. You will ramble for yards at the slightest opportunity about how great your organisations is, how bad your rivals are and half a dozen other things that nobody can make head nor tail of.

Now look I'll say it to you one more time:

The FOC have chosen not to reveal their personal or group identities. You can either respect that and shut up or you can keep acting like a gobshite.

by D Tue May 25, 2004 21:12

Firstly thanks for a few more names to add to my list, really like the dingbat one. If I read through those new names offered to myself I find some points, so,

On points

Already said that I concede to your demand for secretcy but give my reasons as to why I differ to such a tactic. Although as said had not said anything that people did not already know on particular organisations political approach on such. So therefore we both disagree on that..

Don't percieve any organisation fighting facism as a rival in fact have said fair play to you, this, as opposed to your attacks on the 'liberal, ARN also fighting racism, bit of a contradiction there.

Never stated ARN is the only path, again said fair play for you in your stand.

On 'the demand that ' I either respect that and shut up' that being a very authoritarian demand is not one to win favour with many on this site and indeed with myself 'personally'..

, I see no - one as a 'rival' who is fighting facism as I had said from the onset in solidarity - 'fair play to you in your stand' {dispite disagree with tactics}

Finally It was I who was called a rambling moron, a fucking wit, naive, stupid, dingbat, gobshite, and to either respect that and shut up etc. So for the objective observer they can take out of it what they may.

I however when reading through the attacks see a difference in tactics but dispite that have also voiced solidarity to your stand against racism.

Unfortunatley on the other hand although you disagree with ARN 'Liberal' tactics {your right to do so} you respond with a barrage of insults, rather than engaging in the debate.

.Politics and political differences will not be addressed that way and cannot even be discussed that way, although I have tried.

Before signing of this as I see no futher merit without constructive discussion, {maybe not agreeing but respecting others position to disagree, therefore discussing in a more rational way}, I say this.

I will not bow to the authoriantarian dictat of 'respect what I am told and shut up' so dispite this as said I will though respect your wish to remain a covert organisation.

PS debate should not be something that one fears, such verbal attacks re inforces that perception. Secondly no -one can expect to be convinced of your position {if that is indeed what you seek to do} if they see you need to revert to such

PSS - Despite all this and once again I say finally fair play to you for your stand against racism, in Solidarity D - Signing of.

by rylian Sat May 29, 2004 03:00

I'm not going to give my real name on this posting, due to security reasons - I have had serious trouble due to my anti-racist activities and have come under serious threats over the past couple of months, forcing me to withdraw from the movement in order to protect people around me. I was however extremely active in regard to the issue, as I was a member of the ARN and more recently involved (and still in contact) with Fascists Out!, so I think I can give a viewpoint on all this. I daresay Davy may know who I am, and I'm sure he will understand my reasons for keeping my identity under wraps.

As a member of the ARN, I supported the idea of a broad based movement in order to fight the racism problem. I was however, concerned at some of the liberal ideas that were pushed at meetings. Certain events were attended with a very liberal nature towards racism, something which I was opposed to. My opinion was that the main priority was to tackle the fascist organisations head-on; it can not be the role of a supposedly militant anti-racism group to take on the role of an NGO. To be fair, there was talk at meetings about steering away from this attitude. However, the radical leadership that I believed was a necessity simply wasn't avaliable. Incredulously, Davy Carlin in one interview (forgive me if the quote is slightly inaccurate, but I don't have it to hand) stated that the ARN would accept the support "of anyone" in fighting racism in Northern Ireland. This poses an interesting question. Does this include the police? Does this include members of paramilitary organisations? Indeed, the ARN have met with both - hardly, in my opinion, a tactic which is quite amazing considering a) Davy Carlin's own political stance, and b) how an anti-racism movement should operate.

As a Marxist and a socialist, I believe that fascist groups must be stamped out in their infancy. The ARN, despite their successes (and they have had successes - the rally in Belfast exceeded my wildest expectations, and more power to them for it), have made no real move to fight the fascist organisations currently recruiting in Northern Ireland - nor can I see it occuring in the near future. I believe that as a result of the liberal stance that has been taken in regard to the issue, the ARN are recruiting members who will not have the necessary mindset to tackle the fascists head-on. I hope that I am very wrong, but I have my doubts.

I have spoken in schools over the past few months, which I will go into little detail about lest I am recognised. However, my message has been undoubtably militant and radical - fascists out, the reasons why racism is a factor, etc. Through this message, the young people that responded were undoubtably a more determined group of potential activists - they wanted to see action. This encouraged me no end. I do know that at the minute, the ARN are trying to speak in schools themselves. This is a positive step and should be commended, although I did have some recommendations at the time, as I disagreed with the tactics of the organisation to a certain degree in mobilising young people. I sincerely hope that the right message is put across, with a proper alternative, rather than a fluffy half-answer to the problems.

These doubts and problems bring me to the Fascists Out! campaign. Undoubtably more militant, Fascists Out! have taken the battle against racism and fascism to the upper ends of the country, where the WNP are recruiting the majority of their members. I have been a lot more impressed with the activities of this organisation, due to their choice of action and realisation as to the threat of groups such as the WNP.

I am not saying that the ARN should not exist -neither am I saying that a broad-based movement isn't a necessity. However, I do believe that there has been huge failure by supposed revolutionary socialists that participate in the organisation to put across the message of a socialist alternative - indeed, at times some comments made me cringe in horror. There are some fantastic activists in the ARN who I wholeheartedly support and respect (even some who I would criticise for their political stances) but I sincerely hope that there are massive changes in the way the organisation operates - not just ideologically but as a centrally based democratic organisation also. But that is a debate for another day perhaps.

I have had to step back from the movement entirely as of late, something which pains me greatly. I will only say that under the circumstances I have had no choice due to the extreme nature of abuse and threats, and even the most hardline of my comrades have recognised the need for this withdrawal. I wholeheartedly support the Fascists Out! campaign, due to it's understanding of the ARN as an organisation and their correct political standpoint in fighting fascists on the ground. There is no doubt that we should all unite in order to fight this menace, and activists shouldn't simply dismiss the ARN and in turn verbally abuse Davy Carlin - it's childish and shows an inability to carry off a sustained argument. I am not politically sectarian and I am willing to work with those who have the right ideas as to how to tackle this problem - I simply have political differences with the ARN which are answered by Fascists Out!. But to close, I will say that it is not the job of revolutionaries to push liberal agendas - even if at times we are forced to adhere to populist ideas which we don't necessarily believe in, it is our job as socialists to push the alternative at all times, even when participating in the mainstream. I have not seen this in the ARN, and I have found it disturbing.

by D Sat May 29, 2004 12:35

I indeed know who you are and thank you for the reply. I have written a two part piece on the ARN which will be published in the time ahead and answers many of your points, such as that of police, NGO, Paralimilitaries etc. I will say briefly though for now.

Firstly I do not believe covert and secretive organisations are the way forward for socialists to tackle this issue. Like yourself various members of the ARN have received various threats, the usual stuff from such organisations, putting up of pictures on websites, phone calls, text messages, following of persons, letters etc etc. But if such threats increase and become more serious then I believe our re- action will be a collective, vocal, visible and united stand against such threats as had been seen with the South Belfast attacks. I can though my friend fully understand your feeling the need to withdraw to protect others around you but I would have a different approach as how to deal with and organise against the more serious threats.

Secondly our stance is to seek a community response to such attacks, where the communities and local trade unionists are empowered to react to a local situation. This as opposed in the main to the lets go in and sort it out for them tactic pursed by some. That is why we are attempting to establish local groups all around the North. Of course there are areas that would be more difficult to build networks than others.

As for 'liberal' well as you are aware the ARN is a broad based organisation holding different strategies. Yet post rally we have seeked to establish local grassroots and activist based groups in local areas, which we are doing presently. Which has meant in recent times street agitation, protests, leafleting etc against local racist instances, but as importantly responded to, organised by and participated by local communities and local trades unionists. In fact similar initiatives taken on occassion by the fascist out campaign but was initiated in these cases solely by the local community and its activists.

Persons may call that or the ARN liberal, yet there are others more extreme who would call the fascist out actions liberal as they would say just beat the fuck out of them {the fascists}, or even lets nut them etc etc. Yet for me that is not presently the main issue, the issue for oneself is that I believe that mass mobilisation involving the trade union movement and communities against increased attacks is needed and is indeed the building block to defeating such organisations. While at the same time local empowerment, actions and response to such local issues from within the community is also needed. The ARN has done such and as it continues to expand will seek to increase such work.

As for oneself as I have written in my first article in relation to the ARN that I do not read from a purist handbook of tactics {not saying this is what you do} but say it as some of the suggestions given as to how to deal with those brutal attacks in South Belfast for example at its height would have actually intensified the situation. Why? Well quite simply there was much ongoing in that local community at the time going unreported, and we knew that as many of the ARN activists had members of their organisations living there. So by our actions and on the ground knowledge we where able to provide a breathing space for a time from the then increasing brutal attacks, this done through various strategies.

For me I do not care what people say - ‘liberal’,'not pure enough socialist' etc, it matters not. What was important for me was not to prioritise from the dictat of a purist handbook of tactics but to in fact to prioritise an attempt to end the most brutal attacks and create a breathing space, this we did though various strategies {needed in this particular case, knowing what was going on internally in the ground}

As for my position of fascist organisations, again in my article on the ARN part 1, I state that if far right organisations seek to mobilise on the streets and get organised than they will have to be met on the streets by mass mobilisations, and organisation. Ground work through networks of community organisation and trades union are essential to that and not I believe the organisation of covert small secretive groups. I believe it is important that networks are there that can see a local community response to such instances, as persons can travel from afar to chase such persons away {good to see} but what happens if they come back the next day or more sinisterly that evening?

So I wish the fascist out campaign all the best and although we as socialists clearly on this point differ greatly on tactics, the ARN,{ have built a mass mobilisation with the support of the trade union movement and now actively building local grassroots community networks to deal with such issue from within the communities thus providing empowerment}. This as opposed to a small secretive group who demands to remain secretive who goes in the main from the outside into communities to attempt to sort out the problem for them. So on that our campaigns differ. Howver the stand taken by the Fascist out campaign is to be applauded and welcomed and hope that stand continues

I

by dunk Tue Jun 08, 2004 04:01

this article is now in windows @ shops of dublin of black, yellow, brown, white people

all people
most were not aware of indymedia, they are now, i look forward to their contribution

khoda hafez
dunk