Nakhbah Day commemorated in Galway

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 16:31

is drawn to the fact that the Arabic term 'Nakhbah' refers to the founding of the state of Israel. We therefore can safely infer that by this protest, the Ireland Palestine Solidarity outfit functions an apologist for those who wish to destroy the state of Israel, deprive the Jewish people of their right to both self-determination and an ancestral homeland and expose them once again to the merciless depredations of anti-Semites, as exemplified by Europe and the Arab world throughout the ages.

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 16:35

Nakhbah is the Arabic word for 'catastrophe', which is how the Palestinian Arabs refer to the first time they tried to drive the Jews into the sea and failed. Clearly, this term does not reflect any desire for peaceful coexistence but rather, conquest of the Jews; putting them back in their rightful traditional place as 'dhimmis' in the Arab world, namely subjugated non-Muslims.

Readers may like to consider who is really the underdog in the Middle East. Is it really the Arabs, with nearly 200m people, plenty of oil and a land area the size of Greenland and Australia, or is it the Jews with under five million people, no natural resources and a land area the size of Wales?

by Shane Wed May 19, 2004 18:07

nuclear weapons, one of the largest armies in the world, complete impunity for its severe human rights abuses, the sheer audacity to blame a stray tank shell for the deliberate killing of between 10 and 20 protesting Gaza residents today including many children...

Do you ever get tired of this Avi H?

by avi H. Wed May 19, 2004 18:13

of exulting in your ignorance and prejudice and victimizing the world's most victimized people?

by Northern Eye Wed May 19, 2004 22:05

Avi, when your world's most victimized people came out of the desert 4,000 years ago they stole the land mass that is now called Israel/Palestine from the people who were living there and murdered and inslaved at will. When your worlds most victimized people returned to that land mass around 60 years ago they stole that land again from its rightful inhabitants and continue to murder and imprison them at will. Israel never had any moral right to exist - its a state built on lies and the vile stories of mass murder and subjugation that it finds in a sick little book called the Torah - the ancient worlds Mein Kampf. And don't try and say that my opinions on this make me an anti-semite. Being anti-Nazi dosen't make one anti-white does it? The Torah is used as a licence to murder( and, yeah, so are a lot of these so-called holy books). Everyone has their right to believe in any religion they want - its when they take these fairy stories as land-deeds and excuses to steal and kill it becomes everyones elses business.

by avi H. Thu May 20, 2004 00:56

a work of one of the world's great faiths, with mein kampf, only demonstrates your sheer stupidity.

by avi H. Thu May 20, 2004 08:34

your wild potted history.

by kokomero Thu May 20, 2004 10:37

Ironic isn't it?

Israel's excusniks attempting to cover their (bulldozer) tracks by naiive attempts to deflect attention from their very present war crimes and genocide against the Palestinian people, by calling into play past crimes commited by the Germans and others against their grandparents.

No doubt your forefathers are spinning in their graves as we speak in the face of facist butchery by Israeli occupiers in Gaza!

You are not even smart enough to shut up when the whole world including your American backers is against you.

How do you say "bring it on" in Hebrew?

by Nicholas Thu May 20, 2004 12:57

Below is a list of evil anti-Semitic organisations that believe (shock, horror) that Palestinians deserve the right to their own land, self-determination, and freedom from murder.

Courage to Refuse - Israeli army members:
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

SHMINISTIM - ISRAELI YOUTH REFUSAL MOVEMENT:
http://www.shministim.org/english/index.htm

Refuser Solidarity Network
http://www.refusersolidarity.net/

Rabbis for Human Rights
http://www.rhr.israel.net/

Netur Ei Karta - Jews United against Zionism
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

True Torah Jews - Jews against Zionism
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
http://www.btselem.org/

If you look up in search engines there are many many more.

by usual hack hack prejudice. Thu May 20, 2004 13:05

and thus not know how big Isreal is will be happy to know Wales is about the size of Massachusetts.

by Ali Baal la Pointe - Zoroastrians foir Anarchism (from Z to A) Thu May 20, 2004 14:41

Avi: Al Nakhba was an attempt by Palestinians to push Jews into the sea? I've heard of historical revisionism before, but this really takes the biscuit. You're right up there with David Erving and Faurisson in terms of attempts at outright distortion. Alessandra Mussolini recently declared that the real war crime of WW2 was the hanging upside down on Piazza Loreto in Milan of the body of her grandfather who had been shot by partisans. She, too was desperate to claim the mantle of victimhood. But, like them, you have a political axe to grind and a supremacist project to promote.

by kokomero Thu May 20, 2004 16:25

The same old chestnut about Arabs trying to push the Zionists along with all of their nukes, chemical and biological weapons with their bare hands.

Why do Palestinians want to destroy Israel and drive the Israeli Jews into the sea?

This is the question asked most frequently by Israelis and Zionists. We will answer the question indirectly by asking the question below:

Are you aware that Israeli Zionists, during the 1948 war, have pushed into the sea up to 25% of the Palestinian refugees (including women, children, and old people)?

For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers, probably this picture can tell you a bit of the real story

http://palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Picture1253.html

Since the inception of Zionism, its leaders have been keen on creating a "Jewish State" based on a "Jewish majority" by mass immigration of Jews to Palestine, primarily European Jews fleeing from anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia and Nazi Germany. When a "Jewish majority" was impossible to achieve, based on Jewish immigration and natural growth, Zionist leaders (such as Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, and Chaim Weizmann) concluded that "population transfer" was the only solution to what they referred to as the "Arab Problem." Year after year, the plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people became known as the "transfer solution". David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated the "transfer solution" as the following:

* In a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th, 1938:.

"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." (Righteous Victims p. 144).

There is no denying the fact that some Palestinians think as many Zionists do (a Palestinian version of Zionism), and very possibly they do so because they were the victims of such treatment themselves.

It should be noted that the Palestinian people have been on the receiving end of Israeli terrorism (the chief aspect of which are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING of 8.5 million Palestinians) for the past five decades.

Finally, the Palestinian mainstream does not and will not condone massive ethnic cleansing such as that which Israelis and Zionists have perpetrated against to the Palestinian people.

Palestinians, as Muslim and Arabs, have a long history and track record which proves exactly the opposite.

Omar Ibn al-Khatab's and Saladin's conquest of Jerusalem are solid proof of how Arabs and Muslims treated their defeated subjects fairly during the Byzantines and the Crusades respectively.

Ironically, many of today's Christian Palestinians trace their roots to the Crusades, such as the famous Rock family of Jaffa.

by iosaf Thu May 20, 2004 20:28

now take this onboard:-

every 19th of May, almost as an answer to Nakbah day, the zionists celebrate the possesion of East Jerusalem.
This is supposed to be the Palestinian side.
It's occupied.

Rather like other supremacist marches their route through the city is guare and supported by the IDF.

Just like with other marches, the locals close their shops, they stay indoors. To "keep the peace" (what a parody of the term in Israel) Jeruslaem's council (labour) tell them to close.

go to the link see the photos.
Think and Boycott.

by iosaf Thu May 20, 2004 21:33

good.
more photos:-
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/91323/index.php
Let me suggest that this is not the way to go.
Let me suggest as one who has annually seen the clashes between people over their intepretation of what reclaiming the street is about in the north of ireland, that I am not even going to write a word of disgust at this wanton display of supremacism.

BOYCOTT.
or do boycotts hurt the working class more?
perhaps they do.
So don't boycott the oranges, boycott the companies that have waxed rich of this continuing apartheid system.
Defense is a legitmate right of any people.
Offense is what these photos undeniably demonstrate. ¿Is there a zionist out there who will argue that these scores of blue and white ki'pas walking the side streets of East Jerusalem are civilian weapon inspectors?

Boycott.
During Aznar, Amnesty International today confirmed, Spanish companies provided Isreal with equipment which is used to demolish palestinian homes. Now it is time for ZP to stop this.
http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/91256/index.php
Boycott.-

Now it is time for Bush, to prove his sincerity.
Not just to parade what seems to many on the Eurasian land mass as too few crocodile tears from Rice and Powell in the week when they are "election targets".

Bush be Brave!
Bush be Couragous!
Bush Dictate Sharon Listen.


These people are undeniably Zionists.
They are listed by the Isreali authorities as being extremists. They have spent a day walking the streets of a city, which is occupied, celebrating that occupation in small groups and then
"traditionally made their way to worship".
at the remaining wall of the Temple-
The day walking an area the size of Tallaght.
or for american readers central Philadelphia.
or for English readers, the tacky bit of Brighton.

by Northern Eye Thu May 20, 2004 22:17

go to http://english.aljazeera.net/homepage and click on the headline entitled 'Rabbi supports killings in Rafah' to get a little taste of the evil that emanates from the written word of one of the worlds greatest supercults.

by PilLenau Sat May 22, 2004 22:58

go to IMC Israel.
"the origin of the Palestine-Israeli conflict"

by avi H. Mon May 24, 2004 09:44

where anyone got the idea that East Jerusalem belongs to the Palestinians. I never saw any international treaty saying that, nor is it the case that they have been living there for centuries. Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority for hundreds of years.

by iosaf Mon May 24, 2004 19:49

I used to give you space, say nice things to you, thinking at first you were a Irish Jew with relatives in Israel and almost welcomed your trolling as the required devil's advocacy for yes the very obvious pro-Palestinian position of our network.
But over time, I have got so tired of your incessant ranting. Avi, I'm not even sure anymore if you're rational. I have many jewish friends, I have some Isreali friends all of whom have done their stint in IDF and all of whom support Palestinian statehood. I have always been Pro-Palestinian but have tempered that with the awareness that anti-semitism (anti-Jew as well anti-Muslim) is on the increase.
We link to Isreali and Palestinian and Arabic newsources. If the reader goes through either archives or search engines they will find all sources they need to consider the propaganda and counter propaganda that has surrounded the Isreali/Palestinian conflict. But it has mostly been with kid gloves on.

Now answer - ¿where is the evidence that Jerusalem has always had a jewish majority?
perhaps its a ledger buried in some poor person's house.

Your Zionazi state has more in common under Sharon with the Warsaw ghetto than any proud and noble tradition of European Jewry.

Can't you see what you have done to yourselves?

under sharon you are becoming a nazi state.

by publo Thu May 27, 2004 14:56

http://www.alhaq.org/photos/Rafah%20May%202004/index.html

by Steven from Sacramento Tue Jun 01, 2004 08:12 smeinrath at macnexus dot org 916-322-8170

Thank you Nicholas for pointing out that there are many Israelis who oppose the occupation, often at great risk to themselves. Likewise, there are many Jews here in the US and around the world that recognize the complete contradiction between Israel's oppression of the Palestinians and fundamental Jewish values and tradition, and are working to end the occupation. Add to the list one of the fastest growing anti-occupation groups in the US, Jewish Voice for Peace. http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Although reasonable minds have disagreed on whether there should be a single, binational, truly democratic state in Israel/Palestine or whether there should be a two-state solution, I still believe that, at least for now, a unitary state is a practical impossibility. Therefore, the only other solution to the conflict is two states, at least for the time being. Whether I am right or wrong, it is important to acknowledge that this is not a zero-sum game. These two peoples are going to have to learn to co-exist in one fashion or another. Endless debate about who has tried to drive the other
into the sea more often ignores the crucial question of what is to be done right now to stop the suffering.

I would like to hear more serious discussion of what sort of solution to the conflict the Palestine solidarity movement in Ireland is working towards.

by kokomero Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:01

It is good to hear a rational voice promoting the Jewish viewpoint.

I think nobody on this forum with the exception of diehard Zionists would disagree with you that a fully independent Palestinian state needs to be established next to Israel.

In order to facilitate the establishment of such a state Israel would have to withdraw completely from the Westbank and Gaza including dismantling all settlements and withdraw to the pre-1967 border.

This move would have to be accompanied by a financial package to compensate those Palestinians who lost their land and homes in Palestine in 1948 when they were ethnically cleansed, and have had to endure half a century in refugee camps as a result, ie lieu of the right to return.

The package would also have to support the development of an independent economy for the Palestinian state and could easily be financed from the existing military aid to the Israelis at no additional cost to the US tax-payer, as well as a significant contribution and access to markets by the EU.

by Sean Healy Tue Jun 01, 2004 14:17

It is possible to deplore the term "nakhbah" and still support Palestinian statehood. In fact, many Jews and Zionists do. I only wish Palestinians could see a way to self-determination that didn't require "death to Israel".

by Steven from Sacramento Tue Jun 01, 2004 20:58

Thanks kokomero for your thoughtful response. I say amen to all that! Now, let's address Sean Healy's point. Israeli author Amos Oz points out that Israel is fighting two wars, one against those who seek her destruction, to be replaced by a fundamentalist Islamic state, and another war to defend the occupation of the territories seized in 1967. Clearly, we agree that the second war is immoral, unjust, and indefensible. But there is a tendency on the left to ignore the fact that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah are fighting the first war.

That fact does not diminish the need to demand an end to the occupation, it increases it. But let's be careful that our anti-occupation message not morph into an anti-Israel message. Hamas, et al. are trying to blur those distinctions. So are Sharon and Bush.

by eastern eye Tue Jun 08, 2004 16:26

how got the Islam domain on that big part of the world?
how come christianity rules all the parts of earth that the Islam doesn't rule?
on the power of the sword, my dear. and by forcing every man, woman and child to convert their religeon, or to die.
and u come and speak about the jews that conquered the land 4,000 years ago, and killed everyone instead of enslaving them as anyone else did.

i could say, as much as u did, that all irish from both religeons, should abanadon ireland and leave it to the fairies, the true habitants of ireland!

by Nordie Tue Jun 08, 2004 17:14

My poor confused little son. You rant and rave. I can't understand your point. I just had to point out Avi's lovely wee victimised people are as crap as anyone else and the Torah was written by Nazis and acted out by whores as were much of these god bothering books. Lets not dwell on massacres and land grabing 3,000 yrs ago but on the massacres and land grabbing his poor victimised people are carrying out in the present. I just see it that the buggers have no divine right to that land as they stole it in the first place. Theres more chance of the fairies inhabiting Ireland again than the sky god coming back to Israel. These days we know sky gods as alien visitors.

by eastern eye Tue Jun 08, 2004 19:38

cause, Israelis didnt invented what they do to the palestinian. and if it were the opposite, of palestinian ocupaing israel, i think things were just worse.
besides, the arabs conquerd that land as much the same, in 638 A.C
so, is it holy to them, after conquering it?

by Nordie Tue Jun 08, 2004 19:59

My linguistically challenged friend you confuse and befuddle me. For the most part I know not of what you speak. You must be clearer and more careful in the future. But Israelis are doing the modern day conquering on the same basis as if some desendents of a tribe who lived on this fair isle some eons ago were to read some funny fairy stories and decide to come back and throw us all off our land and run about like animals as they killed and killed and killed and all the while telling us that the leprechauns told them to do it. No, no, it just couldn't be right.

by eastern eye Wed Jun 09, 2004 00:23

one can see just lots of people in a harbour. very few in boats. it could be taken at any date, and show any event.
not necessarily palestinians refugees in the sea.

by eastern eye Thu Jun 10, 2004 22:15

and accept few spelling mistakes (that u should forgive me, since english is not my mother's tongue) i think i'm clear enough. usually people understands me, even when i write english, even with spelling mistakes, so i guess that the one who is chalenged is not me.
ignorance, in the other hand, is something that shouldn't be ignored.
despite the fact u wish to deal only with the now, the whole conflict is very historically rooted. and i'm not speak about 4,000 years ago, but 120 years back. its like someone will try dealing with the conflict in north ireland (on whom i admit i dont know much) and will ignore the 800 years of british occupation, next to whom, as far as i read, the israelis in the west bank seems like angels.

A.C means A.D (i related to it as after christ, forgetting that it should be anus domini)

i enterd to palestineremember, and sorry to dissupoint u, the truth is not there. knowing hebrew and being familiar with the geography, i've found there many mistakes. and where there r some - there might be more.

by Nordie Thu Jun 10, 2004 22:24

Oh I was dealing with it an historical context. The Israelis have a great history of murder and invasion in that land, taking what dosen't belong to them in a most brutal way. I still can't really understand you and I don't think you're reading what I write the way I intend it to be read.

by R. Isible Thu Jun 10, 2004 22:25

Kokomero wrote: "I think nobody on this forum with the exception of diehard Zionists would disagree with you that a fully independent Palestinian state needs to be established next to Israel."

Well, I'm not sure that that is the answer at all and I'm not a Zionist let alone a diehard one. I don't see why either Israelis or Palestinians would need a separate state if they can agree to live in a secular society which doesn't discriminate against anyone living there on the basis of their religion or ethnicity.

In many ways I see the creation of a separate Palestine as the playing out of the racist, apartheid mentality of nationalism that is partially at the root of this conflict.

In fact I think you'll find that lots of Zionists would be very happy to see a weak little Palestinian statelet beside them to which they can expel (either by force or persuasive discrimination) their non-Jewish citizens.

by Sean Healy Fri Jun 11, 2004 13:18

There's the little problem of virtually no one wanting a one-state solution - unless you're talking about the Greater Palestine fantasy. And, really, I think this is for the better, considering the savagery of the conflict.

As for Zionists wanting their enemies to live in a weak state - well, wouldn't you? Don't worry about a population transfer of Arab-Israelis, though. They have never been a problem for Israel, and they don't want to live in a Palestinian state. You see, Israel already is a secular, multi-ethnic state, which is more than will ever be said for any Palestine that emerges from the West Bank and Gaza.

by Luoff Sat Jun 12, 2004 15:03

Would you please excuse me for invading your closed, inattached forum, which hasn't the ability to listen to another opinion, let alone deal with a different identity. Please excuse me for conveying my semi-Zionist ideas in a place where it is almost forbidden. And please, oh please would you excuse my twisted, wrong, disgusting thoughts.

I live in Israel. The State of Israel. Yes, that one which concluded that killing little Palestinian kids for dinner and sometimes for breakfast was a great idea. Or did it?

you sit in your comfortable chairs, type your opinions which are based on practically nothing but the faint ideas in the same newspapers and Web sites which, surprise, identify exactly with your own. Never to think, of course, that other facts and opinions might exist, never to even check what you're looking at, never to realize that things look much different from far, far away.

We're talking about a country with what is known as the longest history ever, but what has that got to do with anything? The Jews were driven away a long time before, more than 2,000 years ago, and then again, and from then on lived almost everyhere, remembering - how familiar - their old home, the Land of Israel (which, by the way, spread on a much larger piece of land, but who cares). Well, it took them a fucking long time, but after some dipomatic negotiations, pathetically crying to the Britons and finally phisically building their homes on the land, they got it. Not anything that made the region's Arabs very happy, now who would want anyone to wake up one morning and build a state on his land, especcially a Jew.

Still, no running away from the fact that Israel couldn't have possibly be established anywhere else (would YOU take us? Hitler proved not, even the US sent us begging elsewhere, and Uganda, pardon me, was one of the most idiotic ideas ever to run up a Briton's mind), and just had to be established somewhere, since no matter where the Jew was, he was at least beatten up (even in Arab and Muslim countries, may I correct you) . the formal, yet secret estabishment was followed by the sounds of Arab unapproving gunfire, trying to take over the land given to the Jews by Britain and the UN. The israeli pre-army fought back (why shuld it not?), and conquered land, surprisingly, considering its minor size and power over the great armies of the Arab countries arround.
Nevertheless, that first Israeli war had the sad consequence of frightening some of the native Arabs away, either by arm (the minority) or by the simple fact that not many would sit still and not run away when there's a war going on. THAT is the Nacba, the great disaster, which no doubt was a sad event in the Palestinian history.

Few years later, that war wasn't forgotten, and the conflict became only worse - the Arab ego was hurt and bleeding, and the Israeli got stronger, as some started thinking we're better, and seeing Arabs as the enemy. war after war, some even say it was one long-lasting war that has never stopped, this conflict became deeper and deeper. in 1967, the Six-Day war ended with Israel "winning" great parts of land, including the Ghaza strip and the West Bank. You might haven't realized that yet, but in a time of war, an army would conquer as much land as it possibly can, intentionally to use it in order to negotiate later (or, putting it in simple words: sign a peace treaty and you'll get your land back). This time, apparently, it didn't work as well (not as with Egypt, which still hates Israel's gutts, but has signed a peace treaty in return to Sinai). Had it stayed on the diplomatic plateau, maybe the Palestinians could have their lands back and Israel could get rid of those no-good areas and live happily ever after. but both sides made their mistakes, the Israeli government approving the settlements on these lands and the Palestinians going after the leadership of extremeist groups (Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Fatah, which all existed long before but finally got their power over a large and growing part of the Palestinian community) which had no interest what so ever in delegating with anything that had to do with the "Zionist Entity", which they decided to vanish completely.

You can't blame Israel for trying to fight a nation that produces bombers, later on even suicide bombers, to kill not only the army occupying them (in order to keep them from attacking), but every Israeli citizen living within the borders of the Israeli state. And might I say, Israel has made its mistakes, but victimizing the Palestinians to that extent is nothing but the result of pathetically trying to defend from the frightening threat of fundamental extremist secular and political groups.

You know nothing. you see only what you want to see. And you, typing your ignorance and ignoring facts, seeking the papers that won't contradict your strong, everlasting opinions, victimizing one already victimized group but completely ignoring the other, attacking the attacked and whoever dares think a different thought than you, you try to make Israel look hypocritical and ignorant and mercyless and cruel.

Ah, my dear friends, I could never teach you. Nothing I wrote until now would ever convince you. But let me say only my last words: listening to only one side of a conflict doesn't give you any right to judge.

by Nordie Sat Jun 12, 2004 19:37

'Some Sumarian lord prommissed Abraham the land of the Canaanites like Longshanks promissed his minions land in Scottland. Moses turned that promise into a cult of murder and theft ( Deuteronomy chapter 20, also tells how the ansestors of palestinians came into the land, in Hebrew chains ) that still has followers today. What do you expect from people who claim they have a God given "right" to murder and steal.
Palestine + Zionists = Israel, Israel = the destruction of Palestine, "Death to Israel" = the liberation of Palestine, "Death to Israel is 100% defensive in nature.
To say, "Israel has a right to exist" is the real hate speech. To say that Israel has the right to exist is the same as saying that Zionists have the right to just move into Palestine, take over, steal what they can get away with, murder anyone who resists, route bereaving widows and orphans into the wilderness, and 20 years later, invade the wilderness and start up with the ethnic clensing afresh. "Israel has a right to exist" is 100% offensive in nature. Why? Because the Hebrews murdered the Canaanites and stole the land 3000 years ago. Do Zionists have a right to defend themselves? Of course they do. But defense has 2 options, fight or flight. Outside of Zionist occupied Palestine, there is NO Israel. Zionists have the right to defend themselves by ending their OFFENSIVE crusade and leaving. They do not have any right to murder and steal. Even the Christian dominated 1947 UN appeasing the Zionists occupation of Palestine does not give them any right to murder and steal. And it is murder. If someone comes into your house and takes your TV set, that person would be a thief. If you try to stop the thief, who then pulls a gun and blows your head all over your family and still takes the TV, then that thief is a murderer as well. And they have been doing this for almost 60 years. joshua chapter 8 tells you where the Zionists came up with the name AiPAC for their lobby in Washington. Every "settlement" is more theft. If Palestinians resist the crime, only to get their heads blown off, what changes? For 60 years Zionists have been claiming self defense when they are actually the ones who created the conflict. They just can't stop killing and stealing.
The UN refusses to appease Bush's invasion of Iraq, so the UN is now obsolete. The 1947 UN appeases the Zionist's invasion of Palestine, and that is just plumb dandy. Why think the UN is an organization of peace?
Does a Jewish nation have a right to exist is a philosophical question at best. Do Zionists have a right to murder Palestinians and steal the land for their own profit? That is a REAL world question that has been getting inocent Palestinians killed decade after decade. But in America the controled, only 1 of these questions has ever been asked or answered. And wouldn't you know it, it is the meaningless one. Second Cronicles chapter 2 tells of where the Palestinians came from. For some reason, slaves are always left out of history lessons. Palestinians are descended from the raped slaves of the Hebrew masters. Why else are they the only arabic speaking people to share the cohen model halotype Y-chomosome (Jew gene, in the press).
PS, 2 of the nations to appease the Zionist invasion of Palestine, England and France, also appeased the German occupation of Czechoslovakia 9 years earlier. But, germans did controle the land for hundreds of years in the Holy Roman Empire. And there were Germans living in the Sudatenland. Zionists make the same claim about Palestine and get cheered and American taxes. Some people have NO scruples. '


Alright, I don't think that the Israelis should pack up and leave for some have been there for a few generations now. But I think that the two state solution won't work. After all, look at what happened here. The state of Israel should fall itself, not its people.

by Louff Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:13

Yea, let's.

Let us take all little parts of "history" as it was written by a bunch of religious fanatics, and depend on that. Why don't you check the Koran, why, are you afraid to find out that it relates to all Jews and Christians as a straying group that should and shall be killed in the name of the Holy Sword of Islam?

Excuse me again. Oops, I said something that does not compliment your beloved ones, though true (oh of course not, it's all because of the Zionists living back then and making the 4,000-BC Palestinians miserable, right?). Let me tell you something: the Tora and the rest of the Bible were written in the far past where liberty of speech and the right of knowledge were nothing but an idea to dream of. Any idiot could write whatever he liked as long as he didn't contradict the existence of God, and given he had some power, his writings would go right into the book. Just like Aljazeera. Oops, I did it again.

If you may, the Bible written by the People of Israel (not even Jews, and surely not Zionists, mind you), considering its time and the general society of the world out of which it emerged, was surprisingly forward-thinking and liberal. The rules set out in the book show a society which tried to fix some of the immoralities of that time, trying to raise the status of women, to ease the suffering of the poor and to promote a fair trial. But who the fuck cares, as long as we can take it and use it as a proof that Israel and its Zionists is a cruel, murdering people. I ask you, were the Sons of Israel different from any other people then? Even now?

Yes, let's play that game. Because no doubt, questioned things written thousands of years ago are just as accurate as the conflict in today's Israel.

We don't even need that, you know?
Let's open just few papers, available in the Arab and Muslim countries, in which democracy and civil rights are still an idea to dream of. Take Alwatan, take Aldustour, Alzaman, Alucaz, even Alarab Alyoum which is published in the UK so it won't arouse the Arab dictating leaders' anger. Together with this forum's beloved Aljazeera, they all portray a sad, false, lying picture of what really happens in Israel, all lean towards anti-Semitism (or just cry out: "The Zionists use little Palestinian kids' blood for their Passover feast!", how true, how true), all but the international Alarab portray exactly what serves their leaders. We're not talking democracy here, I guess you understood. And these papers have nothing to do with simple rules such as making sure what you're writing is true, like the old writings of some millenniums ago. Do you want me to take THEM as an example? Why, I could, it's just that I don't see what good it would serve to quote bullshit and use it as truth.

Now, would you like to dismiss the Israeli democracy? As you wish. At least I know I can open my Hebrew newspaper and read whatever it was that happened, and not what my government wants me to think, and living here I have a better idea than you do about what's going on here, so, don't try to teach me what the army I'm a part of does (yea, yea, there's a soldier in the forum, kick her out and shut her mouth before she points her inexistent gun on other writhers through the Net).

And. If you really want to play the "who murdered whom" game, here's my family's story: It was a famous family of Jewish doctors back in Iran, living not far from the city of Espahan. My grandfather's uncle was an eye doctor, one day to be visited by a Muslim whose eyes were severely damaged. The doctor couldn't save his eyesight, given the technology and knowledge of a century ago, and so the poor Muslim went back home. Few months later, revenge came: the Muslim's brother murdered the doctor in return for not being able to fix the situation. In court, the Muslim was excused, because he had "killed only one Jew". Had he killed two or more, he would have had to pay a small fee. Most of my grandfather's family was murdered or/and raped by the Muslims in frequent pogroms, and he fled with a Kurdish family to Turkey and from there to Israel, a 13-year-old orphan with only one eye, his other one was poked by a pebble a Muslim kid threw at him while yelling "Alla Acbar!".

But, of course, the Zionists are to blame!!!

by nordie Sun Jun 13, 2004 19:03

Shhhhh, you crazy creation. I know people all over the world are crap. But thats not what we're talking about. You're just ranting. Now I can see the type of insane creature that guns down Palestinian children in the name of defense. Ignorant and ridiculously hate driven. You're quite mad. Of course. The perfect tool of the new Nazis.

Whatever you say about the Bible I can read it and know its immoral hokum. Which I don't have a problem with on its own but for the fact that IT IS the Zionist template to steal the land of Palestine for the 2nd time in history. But we've been here before and your comments are too illogical to answer.

Once you bring 'god' into the debate, the debate is over.

by eastern eye Sun Jun 13, 2004 21:12

the arab invasion to the land of israel at 639 - here is a chronological list

about 1150 / 1200 B.C - Israelits settele in israel. i start from here since i deal with history and not with stories. ancient israelits sitting in the country at that period is a fact. on the other hand, no prove for the big invasion described in Joshua has been found (yet), and since all Judges book is full with problems with the neighbors, it seems that the invasion, if was, wasn't total as described.
Philistinies, not palestinians, sat in the area between Eqron to Gaza. note that they were Philistinies, not palestinians, and totaly not the same people: Philistinies were called "sea folk", and came from Crete, Palestinians r Arabs

928 - 1004 B.C - David & Salomon's kingdom.
928 - 720 B,C - Judea & Israel kingsoms.
720 B.C - Israel's kingdom is invaded by Assuria, the inhabitants of israel were banished. Judea's kingdom survived, till
587 B.C - Babilon's invasion. the 1st temple is ruined, and the jews were banished into Babylon.
538 B.C - Coresh allowed Jews to back into their land. the 2nd temple were build about 520 B.C

332 B.C - Alexander Mukdon invades.
the helenistic period starts. after his death - a long struggle between the house of Talmai (egypt) to the house of Selvekos (suria).
167 B.C - the Chashmonaic rebel.
160 - 37 B.C- the house of Chashmonai rules ( i.e jewish independant kingsom)
than the start of the Roman rule:
first under the rule of Hordos. after his death -6 A.D - Judea is a Roman province.
66 - 70 A.D the big rebel against the Romans. failed. the 2nd temple was ruined. jews werent allowed to live in jerusalem, and many other parts of the land.

132 - 135 A.D Bar Kochva's rebel against the romans. total failure. two of the punishment acts after the rebel were
1. changing the name of jerusalem into Ilya Kapitolina.
2. changing the country name from Judea into Palestine (at that time there were no Philistinies. they got assimilated within other nations during the decades).

324-635 A.D - Bizantine period.
between there was
614-617 A.D - Parsian rule.
640 - 1099 A.D - Arabic period (see? its not that they dropped from the sky, they too invaded)
1099 - 1291 A.D Crusaders period.
(struggle over the land between muslims to christians all over that time)
1291 - 1516 A.D Mamlukian period
1517 - 1917 A.D Othomans period.
between
1799 - Napoleon passed in the area. and tried to conqure Acco (Acre). failed. lost lots of soldiers by plague in Jaffa.
1917 - 1947 A.D British mandat
and some of the rest u know.

so u come and blame Isreal for invading that country twice?

by Nordie Sun Jun 13, 2004 21:51

Are you insane? Are. You. Insane? What the feck? Christ almighty I've never met someone so baffling. You're having a laugh aren't you?

What, to you, constitutes invasion? The desert nomads who came from the wilderness and took the land of the Cannaanites and so forth INVADED because they entered a country or countries, a land or lands, dwelling places for a different tribes from themselves and murdered the people of that land and stole their land and settled their land and made a country on their land. Now, this would all be beside the point and ancient, ancient history had the desendents of these desert nomads ( who then became the ancient nation of Judea) not came to that particular land again during the 1940's (British mandate? The British empire never had any rights to give foreign lands away to anyone or allow colonists to enter those lands. They've fucked this country up good and proper also) and again mounted an invasion (feck, I think hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreigners coming to throw you out of your villages and live in them is an invasion) all based on a book of murderous lies that was wrote thousands of years ago and told of their original invasion. Is that simple enough for you? The Israeli nation was over eons ago before they decied to invade its ancient site and make it again.

I only brought up the original Hebrew invasion of that part of the world to show that Israel has no 'divine' right to exist and far from being given that land by a supernatural creature the desert nomad Hebrews just invaded and slaughtered to have a home for themselves and this will be clear to anyone who reads the Torah and is not under the god illusion.

Nothing strange here, people have been doing horrible things forever but this is a simple case of history repeating itself.

I know the Jews were brutalized also but its sad that brutalized people go on to brutalize other people.

by eastern eye Sun Jun 13, 2004 23:15

would u mind, besides calling names like "marderous", "nazi", "whores", "insane", "linguistically chalenged" etc. for once to have a proper pleading?

the whole list was meant to show that if the israelis have no right of the land because they invaded it 3000 years ago, the arabs that conquered it 1500 years ago don't have the right either.

its u who claim the wierdest of all, that if u act by force u lose ur right on a country.
(sorry. this is what u mean with all this). as wierd as it sounds.


"heavily armored"?
where the hell do u live (fine. ireland).
would u mint quit assuming that if now israel is heavily armed, in 48 it was the same?
let me tell u - NOT.
(and please dont quote me Aljaseera or something again. we've seen how good they r in inventing names. not to mention facts. next time when they invent something, they should use a name that sounds israeli, at least. not turkish)

by nordie Mon Jun 14, 2004 16:33

ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!! ahhhhhhhhh!!! ahhhhhh!!!!!!

You're so fucking stupid! Stop it! Just stop it. You'll never understand me and I sure hope I never understand you so lets just call it quits, eh?

by Louff Mon Jun 14, 2004 22:46

Nordie, my dear Irishman (or whatever you are that has nothing what so ever to do with either Israel or the Palestinians), it's known to happen that dead bodies whose brains were detached and frozen started practicing law (and were quite successful). But never have I heard of a brain-missing body who had excelled to become the High Judge of the Nation of Israel, until I read what you write.

From your sober, intelligent, based-on-facts writing, I gather you do not know how to read, or else have a difficult time understanding written text, or else stuck in the state of deep hypnosis with no way to return to real-life, or else just extremely, stupidly stubborn. Have you no respect to the solid facts (check them, nothing was based on religion or faith or personal opinion) brought to you by a fellow writer? Moreover, doesn't it disgust you to speak of rights and morals, and then just go calling whoever thinks differently from you "stupid"?

First I thought you were just unaware of facts and submissive to the ideas brought in the media you choose to believe, but I see it has nothing to do with ignorance, this is sheer blindness. Even though you see the words, you choose not to read, you choose to dismiss as "stupid". Guess what it makes you.

My dear Nordie, I'm sad that you do not intend to listen to a word of a different opinion. Even though I was hurt by what you wrote, I took a moment to think where I was wrong and what makes you say such things. I could see most of what you were talking about was evidently wrong, but I do believe, like you, Palestinians are not getting the treatment they deserve, and I can understand your point of view (though don't agree, therefore try to convince you otherwise). I think it's sad and sick that you blame me (and the rest of Iraelis and whoever supports them) for being intolerant, while you yourself are being verbally violent and not at all tolerant.

By the way, let me assure you I have never, and will never, break into a house and violently drive people out or shoot them. Nothing but me writing "soldier" made you accuse me of being an "insane creature that guns down Palestinian children in the name of defense." As I said, I don't even have a gun. I work for the Intelligence, you ignorant; wearing my uniform my job is to prevent things like that from happening. But why should you listen or care, knowing nothing about the Israeli Defense Forces you can keep on dreaming of a corrupt, cruel organization that exists for the lone purpose of making everyone miserable. How liberal and intelligent of you.

And listen, dear, as I said, nothing I say can change your mind. But I would have expected a person who fights for the moral right of others (that IS what you want, isn't it?) to not only stick to facts, but mainly not to be a hypocrite. Alas, morality is a rare thing these days, even in far Ireland (or any other part of the west). Shout and yell and jump up and down while you're at it, you still base your knowledge about Israel on bullshit as you pretend to be the world's savior.

You don't know, you don't see, you don't think and you speak out of the wrong side of the digestive system. I would recommend seeing a doctor.

by :-) Mon Jun 14, 2004 23:09

more text.
more opinion.
more archive.
more derrida.

by nordie Wed Jun 16, 2004 22:28

Oh god, oh god. The high wit and sarcasm. The genius comedy from a Nazi. I call you a Nazi for you are part of a Nazi-like army. You may not have a rifle but then again the smartest Nazis themselves didn't do any fighting in WW mark 2. I don't know you personally of course but if you work happily and proudly for a Nazi type army (esp. in an intelligence service because without such things an army could not function) then you become a Nazi type creature. Why should I talk reason with a Nazi? its impossible - they're indoctrinated with so much ignorance and superiority over the races they want to rule.


Everything was based on religion because both the Jewish invasions of the land by the Dead Sea were based on a murderous cults teachings. I simply pointed out this. I'm sure most Jews, along with most other religious super cults, like to ignore the whole Nazi type ravings in their holy books but its these ravings which have got the world to were we are today. Yes, its hell which is funny as its the fevered earthly works of the supercults trying to escape hell which actually bring it forth. How mad is that, ha ha!

Okay, okay, maybe you're not as evil as the worst of them but you are part of the machine
and you love it. If you really cared about the Jews in Warsaw (sorry I mean the Palestinians in Gaza) then you would sease forthwith your involvment with their tormentors in the IDF.

Jewish is not an nation. Great evil was visited upon the families who made up another nation by the dead Sea thousands of years ago by invading Hebrews and now its happened again with the Zionists and you're part of it. I know you'll never see this though.

Just tell me what right the Jewish nation had to establise itself over the rights of the indiginious peoples of that land twice. Is it because they are the master race?

by eastern eye Wed Jun 16, 2004 23:27

i've been serius with u till now, not that i know why the hell i bothered. ur whole vocabulay is not seem to be bigger than 500 words.
and u have the impudence to call others "linguistically chalenged".

i've no idea what u mean.
the Hashishin, a marderus cult on whose name the word asassin is based, were muslims.
most martial arts r from the far east.
the dead sea cults were more than 1500 years after the invasion of the ancient israelits to israel, an invsion that most reserchers think that had never been.
those dead sea cults, thiught there were preety dualistics, were also preety pacifiests.
what the hell?

and by the way, what do u know about the nazis? what do u know about the holocaust?
from what u write, it seems that nothing.
or dont u know other words than nazis.

i have a chalenge for u: try to write again what u wrote without using the word "Nazi" even once.

by eastern eye Thu Jun 17, 2004 00:40

*handreds of thousands were killed and R still killed in Africa.
*since 1985 60,000 people were killed in colombia. 80% of them were civilians.
*in those countries (i.e. colombia and many african countries), militions use kids as soldiers.
*russia do what she wishes in Chechnia.
in turkey women that were arrested were raped on regular base by cops.
*too many countries in the world (palestine inc.) has a death penalty. US, china and Iran holds 80% of executions.
*in many countries people just vanish.

and according to one movie i've seen, in Ireland, women got life inprisonment without sentence because of getting pregnant, or being raped by a family member, or just because they were morons, and the last of these monasteries was closed just in '95.

and u call the israelis nazis?

attached a link of AI.
if u call urself a what-so-ever activist, u'de better read this instead of aljaseera.

by nordie Thu Jun 17, 2004 18:08

Yeah, yeah and they're all Nazis too. But specifically we're talking about the particular Zionist cult here and not the rest of the world. That, indeed, is what the theme of this thread is about: the murderous Zionist cult and its murderous ways which I call Nazi ways to draw attention to the fact that Zionists act like Nazis.

The cult of murderers which I refer to are, of course, the Moseites who stole the land of the Cannannites and who, in the modern age, are now known as Zionists who stole the land of the Palestinians.

by the watchman Thu Jun 17, 2004 22:55

You people are so stupid .....
Don't you realise that THERE WAS NO CHOICE .....

Of course the expulsions were a form of "ethnic cleansing" but they were a necessary evil to allow the state of Israel to be established .....

Israeli historian Benny Morris has explained it all .....
See the following excerpt form his Haaretz interview:

********************************************
"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide -- the annihilation of your people -- I prefer ethnic cleansing.

And that was the situation in 1948?

That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on.

************************************************

by Louff Fri Jun 18, 2004 01:41

My dear Nordie, how stupid can you get?
Not only that you know NOTHING about Zionism (a movement founded in 1897 by Benjamin Zeeb Herzl, seeking a "safe sanctuary, formally declared in a statement, for the People of Israel in the Land of Israel"), but you also know nothing about IDF, and you have no idea what really goes on in Israel, yet you let yourself speak freely on these issues.

Having not much time (it's late and I must sleep if I want to wake up early and murder Palestinian babies on my way down town)(relax, I was being sarcastic), so I'm going to make this short:
First, Zionism is not a cult; it's a movement that had concluded that Jews can no longer live within other nations, being subject to the everlasting violence of the Christians (both Catholic and Protestant, and later on even the secular) and Muslims. Therefore a group of people gathered and started begging of the Ottomans and then Britons for a "National Home within the Land of Israel", whatever that means, crtainly not a state. It took 6,000,000 dead bodies to convince anyone they deserved a shelter. From then on, Zionism as a movement stopped existing, and it became the idea that Jews need a state in order to be safe and preserve their nationality and religion without being murdered. That's all. And as many other ideas, some distort them into whatever serves their interests. Luckily, they are normally regarded as fanatic extremists and are ignored by the majority.
Second, IDF is now dealing with four different terrorist groups (Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah and Hisbulla) that have decided to confront each and every measure Israel makes (including things in favor of the Palestinian community). Furthermore, these groups are feeding on the PA's money and are using it for achieving weapons, leaving close to nothing to the Palestinians themselves, and then use their poverty to make them dependent on mosques' charity and schooling, teaching them how to return the favor: bombing themselves and taking some citizens with them. The PA and Islamic preachers are using the ideas of Islam and twisting them (though Islam isn't a very tolerant religion to begin with) for their purposes, but in this case, someone listens. 78% of Palestinians support terror attacks on Israelis. Too bad, because otherwise they wouldn't have been considered such a threat.
[I will try to find you some information in English about IDF, hoping you can read that]
Third, if you are so eager to blame Jews for being the most corrupt religious group, let's take a look into Islam, which preaches to hate and seek to eliminate all other religions, while describing Jews and their descendants, Christians, "pigs and monkeys" that have not the characters of humans and are a kind of animal later to be vanished by Allah (now tell me that doesn't sound like Gabbles). They even had the chance to take over tremendous parts of the world and submit the other religions and treat them cruelly kind (the "live but shut up and lay low" policy). Or Christians, who went on their crusades and raped and killed anyone standing in their way (ever thought why some Arabs are bright-eyed? European DNA miraculously came into their blood), and traveled overseas to convert tribes and nations and then STEAL their lands.

So actually, according to your statements, nobody has the right to run a state, since everyone is a part of this corrupt nation or that cruel religion. Stop talking Nazi, start talking Politics. That language describes situations in a much more efficiently manor, and without all that crap you're trying to sell as "the true nature of Zionism" or whatever it is you are trying to invent.

by nordie Fri Jun 18, 2004 22:46

I know the whole world and its super cults are all corrupt and horrible. But the theme of this thread is about the Israeli Zionazi cult and how it came to Palestine and stole the land on the back of a supremicist book of terror and murder. You can say 'but what about' all you want but it dosen't take away from the fact that Zionism is also an evil extremist movement that see's the rights of one people as more worthy, much, much more worthy than another peoples rights.

by eastern eye Sat Jun 19, 2004 00:49

u can call israel cruel.
u can call israel an oppress conqueror
u can call israel invador
u can call israel subjugator
u can even call israel colonialist and imperialist (but in these cases i'll prove u wrong).

u can't call israel nazi.
because u overuse the word nazi till it loses its meaning.
and i'm really sorry, but even throwing 700,000 palestinians from their land and taking their place dont get close to what the nazi did, not only to jews.
if all the nazis had done was to throw jews from their houses into a neighbor state, or even to the other part of the world, the jewish nation would almost not remember that, compared to what jews had suffered previously.
but they've done worse.
much worse than what u call 'etnic cleansing'.

and the jews in europe didn't send 14 and 12 years old kids to explode themselves. with a promise that in heaven they'll get 70 virgins.
or women caught betrying their husbands to do the same, inorder to cleanse the family's name.

by nordie Sat Jun 19, 2004 02:42

'u can call israel cruel.'

Obviously a nation which displaces millions of people (rem not 'just' 750,000 Palestinians have been thrown off their land - so many more have now become refugees since) is an incredibly cruel nation. Yeah, a nation with a Nazi mentality which says 'our people are the choosen people (master race). We own this land because our master race Torah book say we do so your people do not not count.

' can call israel an oppress conqueror'

Israel oppresses Palestinians. It keeps them in ghettos, it destroys their houses, it constantly grabs their land, it murders them in cold blood by firing tank shells at a protest. Among many other things.

it conquerors them as the word 'conquer' is defined thus in the Concise Oxford Dictionary as 'overcome and control (an enemy or territory) by military force'. It overcame the Palestinians by military force and still occupies the land in which they live. israel is a conqueror.

'u can call israel invador'

In 1948 Zionists invaded Palestine. You know this yourself. They still invade Palestinian lands to make 'settlements'

'u can call israel subjugator '

They've tried. Oh how they've tried. But the Palestinian resistence has so far stopped them having it all their own way.

'u can even call israel colonialist and imperialist (but in these cases i'll prove u wrong).'

Israel is colonialist. If, going by your way of thinking, the Jewish are a nation, then the Jewish colonisation of Palestine was the colonization of one nation by another nation. Still Jewish 'settlers' come from all over the world and from inside Israel to colonise more and more of what is left of the Palestinian homeland all for their vision of a greater Israel.

by nordie Sat Jun 19, 2004 03:18

First Israeli Prime Minister DAVID BEN GURION
" If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122

'The Palestinian intifada is a war of national liberation. We Israelis enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities ... we established an apartheid regime.'
Michael Ben-Yair, Israeli attorney general in the1990s, quoted in The Guardian (U.K.), April 11, 2002

Yasser Arafat neither prepared nor triggered the Intifada. The explosion was spontaneous, against Israel, as all hope for the end of occupation disappeared, and against the Palestinian authority, its corruption, its impotence. Arafat could not repress it. The peace process is what allowed Arafat to be seen as the head of a national liberation movement rather than a collaborator of
Israel. Without it, he can fight neither against the Islamists nor against his own base.
Ami Ayalon, head of Shin Beth, Israeli Interior Security 1996 until 2001


"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
DAVID BEN GURION, Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


"Our strategy was always to provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them". Israeli General Moshe Daylan


"We must use TERROR, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
ISRAEL KOENIG The Koenig Memorandum", Israeli government report

The removal of Arabs bodily from Palestine is part of the Zionist plan to "spirit the penniless population
across the frontier by denying it employment...Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the
poor must be carried away discreetly and circumspectly."
THEODORE HERZL founder of the World Zionist Organization Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.



"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public
opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of
facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is
that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish State
without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation (stealing) of their lands." YORAM BAR PORATH, Yediot Aahronot, of 14
July 1972.

Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We
shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
JOSEPH WEITZ, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From " A Solution to the Refugee Problem" Joseph Weitz, Davar, September 29, 1967, cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mevinsky, eds., Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21.

"A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your
colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing."
VLADIMIR JABOTINSKY, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923.

"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters"
URI LUBRANI, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as
they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we
take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will
go to them." ARIEL SHARON, Israeli Foreign Minister,
Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998

"AIPAC has a lot of influence on foreign policy. They work hard to ensure that America endorses pretty much Israel's view of the world and the Middle East."
JJ Goldberg, editor of the Jewish newspaper The Forward,
published on BBC Worldservice online May 7, 2002

"People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust" Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Apartheid in the Holy Land, Monday April 29, 2002
The Guardian

"I've never seen a President-I don't care
who he is-stand up to them [the Israelis]. It
just boggles the mind. They always get what they want"
Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Thomas Moorer

"Israel controls the Senate"
Former Senator William Fulbright

"AIPAC has a lot of influence on foreign policy. They work hard to ensure that America endorses pretty much Israel's view of the world and the Middle East."
JJ Goldberg, editor of the Jewish newspaper The Forward BBC Worldservice online May 7, 2002

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that...I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it"
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon October 3, 2001

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells
students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989

by nordie Sat Jun 19, 2004 04:31

Zionazionism

by Dave Kersting

'Some people like to compare those they wish to kill with Hitler and the
Germans under Nazism.

But one comparison truly reflects history, not emotion, and truly holds
up:

The Nazis wished to declare "Germans" a distinct ethnicity - and to
marshal "Germans" together into a unified political force, in an ethnically
and religiously homogenized homeland. This is plain fact.

The Zionists wish to declare "Jews" a distinct ethnicity - and to
marshal "Jews" together into a unified political force, in an ethnically and
religiously homogenized homeland. This too is plain fact.

Under Zionism (or Nazism,) a state would be "redeemed" through violent
purification, and new Jewish-only (or German-only) "settlements" would be
created through ethnic-cleansing - in Palestine and all the way to the
Tigris-Euphrates (or Poland and all the way to the Ural Mountains).

The new state would be a highly egalitarian, worker-friendly, or
"socialist" democracy, but it would reject the internationalism that is
normally essential to socialist doctrine: the blessings of socialism and
democracy would be neatly reserved for one distinct ethnicity, in an
officially ethnic-supremacist land, wherein the special ethnic rights of the
favored nationality would supercede the human rights of less favored groups.
The new state would be a democratic "National Socialism."

The national socialism, which was and remains the Zionist goal, is
fundamentally identical to the national socialism we know as Nazism. Zionism
is Jewish national socialism, just as Nazism was German national socialism.

Both Nazism and Zionism are based on a fancifully mythic interpretation
of history and nationality - one producing a "Master Race," the other
producing a "Chosen People" or "Sons of the Covenant" (B'nai B'rith). Both
latched onto a simplistic, ancient religious symbol - the swastika and star
of David - as if to assume from it some special authority. In both cases,
the adopted symbol actually has very little to do with the ethnic group it
supposedly represents, and nothing to do with the violent racial or ethnic
superiority claimed by those who use it as a banner of ethnic conquest and
ethnic-cleansing. (Keep in mind that the Magen David has little to do with
ancient Israel and nothing to do with the Eastern Europeans who converted to
Judaism several centuries ago.)

In both cases, Zionism and Nazism, the ethno-centric tribal chauvinism
and racism commonly found in Eastern Europe was transferred to and adopted
by otherwise-modern elements of a broader group - "the Germans" and "the
Jews" - and that Eastern European racist ideology would displace what was
civilized and decent in the larger groups.

The main difference is, whereas Germans adopted an Eastern European
tribal ideology, in the case of Zionism, a racist Eastern European group
(Ashkenazim) physically migrated, with their tribal ideology, to Palestine,
a totally MYTHIC "promised land," to which they had no hereditary or
cultural ties, and found success by imposing their racism on innocent,
unarmed, helpless, and non-racist people. (A few mythic references to the
Holy Land and its history do NOT constitute a cultural tie.)

Both Nazi Germany and Zionist Israel would build military power,
secretly violating international law by manufacturing weapons - including
NUCLEAR weapons - which they were not supposed to have, and both would
conduct illegal espionage to steal materials they could not otherwise
obtain.

Comparing Nazi Germany to IRAQ, on the other hand, is fanciful nonsense.

Neither Saddam Hussein nor Islam espouse any philosophy of ethnic
superiority or supremacy, as Zionism does quite explicitly.

If we avoid comparing the credibility of their pretexts, Iraq's invasion
of Kuwait CAN be compared with Nazi Germany's taking the Sudetenland - and
then it can be compared with every invasion that has ever occurred.

In fact, the current pretexts for invading Iraq give it an equivalence
with 1940 Poland, rather than Germany; and the Warsaw Ghetto is quite
equivalent to the post-'67 Zionist Israeli occupied parts of Palestine.

The Zionist ethnic conquest of Palestine can be closely compared with
the Nazi drive for "lebensraum" in Poland, through the importation of a
desired ethnicity (German or "Aryan") at the expense of the indigenous
people. And Israel's invasion of Lebanon, in 1982, was primarily a campaign
of extermination against Palestinian civilians and national leadership
(death toll estimates range between about 19,000 and 30,000), much like the
extermination campaigns run by the Nazis in conquered European states.

In both cases, Nazi Germany and Zionist Israel, the official doctrine of
ethnic-supremacy would create eternal conflict with all neighboring
countries, and much of the world, until such time as the neighbors were
totally crushed and dominated and the unwanted ethnicities and religions
wiped out or driven far, far away.

In both cases, much of the world would stand by, trying to profit as
much as possible from the early "success" of a highly unified and officially
racist doctrine, as it massacred tens of thousands of less favored ethnic
types - until the danger got way too far out of hand and nuclear combat
became inevitable'.

Dave Kersting
[email protected]

by Louff Sat Jun 19, 2004 19:35

Nordie darling, how many times have I told you to stop depending on unreliable sources?

First you depended on Aljazeera, then quoted the Bible, now you go and take quotes of Zionist and Israeli leaders out of anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli sites.

In the beginning, I was glad you had finally started to quote real people; then I noticed the quotes were not characteristic of the people you quoted. I copy-pasted into Google the quotes and sources you presented, and guess what? They all led to anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist sites, which had the interest in violating Israel's reputation, no more. Now I am more convinced than ever you are nothing but a childish anti-Semitist whose logic has been shut down. None of your "realistic" quotes led to a real statement or a real quote, or even a real organization; the sites repeated their own contents, sometimes it was even the same page only designed differently. Checking out in some books and encyclopedias I have at home I found none of the sayings. When you repeat the same lie over and over again sometimes it becomes truth, but you just can't put words in someone's mouth without somebody finding out.

As to your babbling about Israelis/Zionists/Jews (for you they are just the same thing, aren't they?) being equal to Nazis, I would really like to know how you got to that idiotic conclusion. While Nazis were driven by the idea that Jews were a devilish semi-race that spreads corruption, destruction and death wherever it thrives, and therefore went on a campaign to murder each and every Jew.
Israel tried to defend its people and land, therefore fought the attacking armies and "gained" land and some people started settling on it. Bad idea, since the occupied people started sending terrorists into Israel. Israel, trying again to defend itself, tried to sign a peace treaty, and tightened its grip over the occupied territories, to prevent terrorists from emerging and killing. Where here do you see that Israelis consider themselves better? Where do you see the Palestinians are considered a nation to be vanished? Where do you see avoidance of negotiation? Where do you see racism?

Look, we can talk about the bad things Israel did, because it has its faults. We can't ignore the complex situation in the region. We can't ignore the Palestinian Authority's faults. We can't ignore the terrorist organizations' faults. We definitely can't ignore the facts. And we mustn't invent them either.

by nordie Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:26

The reason that you probably seen them on anti-Zionist web sites is that pro-Zionist web sites are hardly likely to use them, are they? Anyway, i've seen them reported in so called respectable and middle of the road newspapers as well. They've been said on radio and to large groups of people and in the Israeli parliment. But no matter where you read them you'll never believe they're genuine anyway.


Israel stole the land off people from another race in the first place. It still murders them by the dozen and still continues to grab their living space and subject them to the most horrible treatment and it does this on the back of a supremicist book that makes out the people from one race to be greater than others. I think thats as racist as fuck.

by david ben gurrier Mon Jun 21, 2004 22:48

So whatcha goin ta do about it big boy ?

by kokomero Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:00

It is a mistake to draw a moral line between Israel and the Occupied Territories; it is all occupied territory.

Israel is a racial state, where rights are assigned on the basis of ascribed descent or the approval of the superior race. In this respect it resembles the American South prior to the passage of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts, Ireland under the Protestant Ascendancy, and, yes, Hitlerite Germany. But in its basic structures it most closely resembles the old South Africa.

Is one permitted to say above the level of a whisper that U.S. policy toward Israel has something to do with Jewish influence in the U.S.? Perhaps Nobel Peace Prize winner Bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa can get away with it: "The Israel government," he observed, "is placed on a pedestal [in the U.S.] People are scared in this country to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful-very powerful" (Guardian 29 April 2002).

Early Zionists led by Theodore Herzl contemplated as the site of the future state Argentina or Uganda, among other locales but Herzl favored Palestine, because, although an agnostic, he wanted to make use of the custom of going on pilgrimages to the "holy land" and establishing religious communities there.

The problem of building a Jewish society among an overwhelming Arab majority came to be known as the "conquest of land and labor." Land, once acquired, had to remain in Jewish hands. The other half of this project, known as Labor Zionism, called for the exclusive use of Jewish labor on the land acquired by the Jews in Palestine. The Labor Zionists maintained this dual exclusionism (or apartheid, as we would now call it) in order to build up purely Jewish institutions.

To achieve the conquest of the land, the Zionists set up an arrangement whereby land was acquired not by individuals, but by a corporation, known as the Jewish National Fund (JNF). Naturally, in order for the land to serve this function, Arab labor had to be excluded. Leases from the JNF specifically prohibited the use of non-Jewish labor on JNF plots.

The Zionist commitment to racial purity has led to expressions of bigotry at the highest levels of Israeli society that would inspire outrage in respectable circles in the U.S. An Israeli company has required thousands of Chinese workers to sign a contract promising not to have sex with Israelis. A company spokesman said there was nothing illegal about the requirement. Israeli law forbids the marriage of a Jew with a non-Jew. (Associated Press, December 23, 2003)

Despite these policies and even with the encouragement of the British government, in the thirty years following the Balfour Declaration, the Zionists were able to increase the Jewish-owned portion of the land of Palestine to only 7%. Moreover, the majority of the world's Jews showed no interest in settling there.

Zionist policy, as enunciated by David Ben-Gurion, first prime minister of Israel: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history of the People of Israel." (Yoav Gelber, "Zionist Policy and the Fate of European Jewry (1932-1945)" Yad Vashem Studies, vol. XII, 199.)

This policy of attaching more importance to the establishment of Israel than to the survival of the Jews led the Zionists to collaborate with Nazism and even be decorated by Hitler's government. The best known case was that of Rudolf Kastner, who negotiated the emigration to Palestine of some of Hungary's most prominent Jews in return for his help in arranging the orderly deportation of the remainder of Hungary's Jews to the camps. For his efforts, Kastner was praised as an "idealist" by no less an authority than Adolf Eichmann. (The best study of Zionist-Nazi relations is Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators.)

The Zionists knew they had to rid themselves of the Arab majority in order to have a specifically Jewish state. Although 75,000 Jews moved to Israel between 1945 and 1948, Jews still constituted a minority in Palestine. The 1948 war afforded the Zionists an excellent opportunity to rectify this; as a result of the war, more than three-quarters of a million Arabs fled their homes.

The case of Deir Yasin, in which Israeli paramilitary forces, under the command of future prime minister Menachem Begin, massacred over 250 civilians, sending a message to Palestinians that they should depart, is the most well known example of how this flight was brought about. In his book, The Revolt, Begin boasted that without Deir Yasin there would have been no Israel, and adds, "The Arabs began fleeing in panic, shouting 'Deir Yasin'" (quoted in Menuhin, 120). Recent writings by Israeli revisionist historians have refuted the longtime insistence of Israeli officials that the departures were voluntary.

Moshe Dayan, former Defense Minister, stated in a famous speech before students at the Israeli Institute of Technology in Haifa in 1969:

Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahial arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population (Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969, quoted in Davis, 21).

The 1967 war, as a result of which Israel conquered and occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank of the Jordan River, and the Sinai Peninsula, was a continuation of the process that began in 1948. It will be drearily familiar to any who know the history of the displacement of the Indians from the lands they occupied in North America. Today it would be called "ethnic cleansing."

The first census of the state of Israel, conducted in 1949, counted a total of 650,000 Jews and 150,000 Arabs. The legal foundation for the racial state was laid down in two laws passed in 1950. The first, the Law of Return, permitted any Jew, anywhere in the world, the right to "return" to Israel. This right did not apply to non-Jews, including the Palestinian Arabs who had recently become refugees. In addition, the Absentee Property Law confiscated the property of Arab "absentees," and turned it over to the Custodian of Absentee Property.

Arab refugees within their own country were termed "present absentees" (what a phrase!), and not allowed to return to their property. A number of refugees who attempted to do so were termed "infiltrators," and some were shot in the attempt. Confiscated property accounted for the vast majority of new settlements. These confiscated lands, in accordance with the procedures that were established in the Mandate period by the JNF, have become Israel Lands, with their own administration. This administration, controlling 92.6% of all of the lands in Israel, only leases these lands to Jews.

The greatest ideological weapon in the Zionist arsenal is the charge of anti-semitism. Students and faculty members at Harvard begin a campaign to make the university sell off its stock in companies that sell weapons to Israel (modeled on past campaigns seeking divestment from South Africa), and the president of Harvard denounces the organizers of the campaign as "antisemitic in effect, if not in intent."

by nordie Tue Jun 22, 2004 15:23

excellent, sane, work:

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/1697256.php

by Louff Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:31

Well, considering I have just a tad more resources than you do (and I have much, much more), and that I was trained with things such as that, believe me (why should you? I'm a dirty Jew) that I can tell when there's lying in the text. And even when there's no more than ignorance.

Israel is somewhat "racist". Trying to be a sovereign Jewish state, meaning Jews are the majority (therefore can effect the state by democracy) and the symbols are based on the Jewish heritage (the Menorah and olive branches; a star of David in the flag) – well, that does make a difference between Jews and non-Jews. It means that Jews can get their citizenship without much of a headache, while others don't. Yea, that's not really fair.

Still, the meaning of all this doesn't come to harm anyone. It does not mean that Jews are better – it's actually the other way around: it's because Jews were, and still are (as we see here) considered all around the world to be a negative people or sub-race. The 20th century was so hard for them to survive, that their choices were: stay where you are and be slaughtered (fun, I'm sure), or build a place where you won't be slaughtered. Naturally, they chose the second choice. Not bacause they were better, but because they were dying.

Now let's think together: how can Israel be a Jewish state, with the majority being non-Jewish? It can't. Unless it is a dictatorship like the former Iraq where the minority controlled the majority, but the Jews wanted democracy, stupid, stupid. That being the situation, they decided to make certain "adjustments" so that it could still serve as a state for Jews. The law giving only Jews the right to regain citizenship is meant to assure Jews they have where to run to when they are mistreated elsewhere, and to make sure there is a Jewish majority in the state. Democratically fair? Not at all (and almost nobody denies it in Israel, by the way). Necessary? Absolutely.

Still, it doesn't mean non-Jews don't get their rights in Israel. There are Arabs in the parliament. There are non-Jewish schools, Arabic is a formal language in Israel, mosques are spread all over the country, and non-Jews can go on with their lives and culture (except for the Beduin Trial, in which they stick burning-hot metal to the accused person's tongue to see if he's telling the truth). The only right they don't get is a free citizenship for every foreigner who, for some reason, wants to come, and an army service. [the government decided it's immoral to make a person fight his own people, so Palestinian Israeli citizens don't serve in the army. Druze, Bedouin and other minorities can serve, if they want to. There are actually many Druze soldiers in my base, treated equally to any other soldier]

So saying that Israel is racist? Racism is an ideology according to which everyone but your own "race" is worse. That is definitely not what Israel is built on. Talks about minority rights keep going on it the parliament, talks seeking a way to treat the minorities respectfully and grant them as many rights as possible within a state which is based on Judaism and is meant to keep Jews the majority. Again, it is democratically unfair, but there's nothing to do with racism.

As for the racist sites you quote, nordie – I searched online and offline in most sources available where I work, and still, no trace of these sayings, which don't coincide with the ideology of the leaders you quoted, but in sites that desperately try to convince that Zionism is racism is Satanism. That is anti-Semitism. Because nothing there is true, yet it tries to set innocent minds against a people they don't know. If you want, I can bring you some real crappy things Israelis did and said, Israel doesn't lack stupidity after all, but don't waist your time inventing things. That's just as good as racism.

by kokomero Fri Jun 25, 2004 18:38

For one what about the right to marry whom they wish. This fundamental human right was recently denied to Palestinians resident in Israel by your government.

Democratic?

Respectful of international norms in terms of human rights?

And what about the Palestinian workers in the Knesset who had their helmets marked with a red X to make them easier for snipers to kill.

I could go on and on Loaff but I won't. For an obviously intelligent person you demonstrate a remarkable level of self-delusion.

There are no opt out clauses if you wish to be a democracy.

by eastern eye Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:13

"For one what about the right to marry whom they wish."
what r u talking about? more details, please.

"And what about the Palestinian workers in the Knesset who had their helmets marked with a red X to make them easier for snipers to kill".

1. show me one case of a palestinian construction workers that was killed in the middle of jerusalem. by a snipper.
2. no one is allowed to enter any weapon to the Knesset.
3. why the hell the information about it is found only here
http://www.arabhra.org/index.htm
and no one else wrote about it?
u know, its something that could be checked easily.

u r so FULL with disinformation, u can't distinguish between truth and false.

by kokomero Tue Jun 29, 2004 19:20

Too lazy to do your own research?

Israel is a racist state as if we needed proof!

From the Jerusalem Post well-known pro-Palestinian newspaper!

"Report: Arab Knesset workers wear marked hats (JPost.com Staff Mar. 9, 2004) Arab workers, currently working on construction of the new Knesset wing, are obligated to wear hardhats marked with a red X in order to allow for a sniper positioned nearby to follow them around, the Ma'ariv daily reported Tuesday.
According to the report, foreign workers, however, are not obligated to wear marked hardhats.
Knesset officials told the paper that the markings are done according to security considerations and are removed once the workers finish undergoing investigations."

Published on Friday, August 1, 2003 by the lndependent/UK
Israel Imposes 'Racist' Marriage Law
Palestinian-Israeli couples will be forced to leave or live apart
by Justin Huggler in Jerusalem

Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organizations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.

Under the new law, rushed through yesterday, Palestinians alone will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

Now Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.

by Louff Tue Jul 13, 2004 00:57

Let's face it.

Israel's greatest enemy isn't a country or a nation – if it were an ordinary war, Israel would face an army whose target is to take over lands while killing as many soldiers as possible. Instead, we're dealing with terrorist militias organized in small groups, whose target is to destroy Israel while killing as many Israeli Jews as possible.
These "Jihad" (Holy War of Islam) fighters are now available in: Palestine (Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Hamas); Lebanon (Hizbulla); Iraq (I'd better not start counting them). And we have AlQaida, but they have more serious issues (trying to take over the world and stuff).

Now. Only Arabs, especially Islamist, join these militias, because of the simple fact that their aim is to kick out whoever isn't Arab, and in all cases but Fatah, to establish a religious Islamic state. It worked twice in history: #1 was in Afghanistan (later invaded by the US), #2 was in AlFallujah (a city in Iraq, where an Islamist militia now rules and tends to brutally slaughter whoever shows any sign of not being radically Islamic). Israel is the next target.

I believe it is quite understandable why Israelis are afraid. Each bus ride can lead to their death. They are living targets.

If it were an ordinary army, you'd expect IDF to clash with its forces; but it's not an ordinary army. We're talking about terrorists, disguised as normal Arabs and sometimes even non-Arabs, who infiltrate into Israel and explode, taking as many as they can down with them. How would you face that threat?

This war IS racist, because the target isn't the forces, but the Jews, soldiers and citizens as one. And the attacker is always an Arab. Israel hasn't found any sufficient way, but to be careful when dealing with Arabs. It doesn't make it any easier when percentage of support in these militias is rapidly growing among Palestinians. Add Nassralla's preaching every Friday – usually telling Palestinians to keep on with their Jihad and "resistance" (=exploding), and then every once in a while telling them to try to legally infiltrate Israel and then "resist" (=explode) – and you've got to exactly what led to these rulings.

I like them just as much as you do, they revolt me – and I couldn't be happier they're past due and have no affect now – but I can't deny the reason. There's something there, and it must be dealt with, somehow. But I think you understand it's much more difficult than "get out of the territories". Especially not when we've got these militias swearing that if Israel – excuse me, "Zionist Entity" – gets out, they'll take it as a sign they've succeeded with the help of Alla and will take over all of Palestine (everything that is now Israel) and get rid of the Zionists (=Jews).

You can say that Israel is Racist – I still believe that if it were, I wouldn't have 12 years of teachers drilling into my brain that "we are trying to get to a peace agreement with our neighbors, and we should know the Arabs, and peace is our goal, and everyone's the same but special, and we should aspire to have equality" and all the rest of the deal. I don't believe a commander in a racist army would angrily lift his eyes from his papers in the middle of a lecture and answer an outspoken thought: "Don't call it stupid, don't you ever think you are any better, there it's the mosques ruling their lives and here it's the TV. You were taught certain things since you were a baby, like you should aspire to be beautiful and have a career, there they teach them that dying for the sake of Islam is the greatest aspiration. We're just as stupid as they are. This is an institution owned by the state, we don't have the right to judge, so you may keep your thoughts to yourself, and the rest of you, but never judge anyone else while wearing these uniforms!"
I don't think a state-run television channel in a racist country would make an effort to show Arab-Jewish productions, including an Arab-Jewish "Sesame Street" with Arabic-speaking puppets. I don't think a racist country's liberty statement would say: "…will have total equality of social and legal rights for all its citizens with no regard to religion, race and sex." I don't believe that in a country where war against the different is a normal value, a top radio hit would sing: "Flowers in the pistol and girls in the turret\ Soldiers will return in masses to their hometown." By the way, this old song, whose cover version plays non-stop on the radio, actually expresses an Israeli value that follows families from generation to generation: "When you grow up there isn't going to be any war, it will be over and you won't be a soldier, and we won't have to be so worried for you." I was told that since I can remember myself. And guess what happened in the end. It always does.
I cite one of the three "basic values of the spirit of IDF", translated from Hebrew:
"Human honor – IDF and its soldiers are obligated to keep human honor. Every human being has a value that doesn't depend on race, religion, nationality, sex, rank or job." And one of the ten values: "Purity of the weapon – the soldier will use his weapon and power only to perform his task, only to the amount needed, and will keep a human image even while fighting. The soldier will not use his weapon and power to hurt human beings who are not fighters or prisoners [of war], and will do whatever he can to prevent damage to their life, body, dignity and property." This is a document, printed into a miniature book, which every soldier gets the day he is drafted, and the values in it are thoroughly taught by the commanders. Large copies are posted in offices and classrooms. I keep it in my wallet.

So as I said, I can understand that you insist that Israel is racist and all the rest of that crap. I can understand that you look at some of the rulings and they seem racist. I can understand you see soldiers torturing citizens on TV and think that IDF is a cruel institution based on the idea it should kill everyone in sight.
But I live here. I know I don't think there's anything wrong about being an Arab, I know all my friends don't, I know most Israelis don't (there are the fanatics). I happen to be in the army and to see how the system treats soldiers who torture innocent people. Lately a whole company was put on trial and was kicked out of the army for that, their ranks were erased and they won't be allowed to work for state institutions ever again. And they don't have many, if any, fans among other soldiers.

Are you trying to tell me that I'm racist? I might be, after all, I am a Jew living in Israel and serving in the army. I think there's a little more to racism than that. But who cares what I think. I'm a living target with a deep-green Intelligence cap on my shoulder, and tomorrow I could be dead.

by Jay Acra - Zemenia Community, Galway Branch Sat Jul 31, 2004 02:07 internationalrebelion at hotmail dot com

I mean no offense. But I'd like to ask the author who put Zionism and Racism in the same catagory as Satanism to do some independant research on actual Satanism. I personally found that offensive because my religious group was partially influenced by Satanist philosophy. You'll find that Satanism is 100% innocent, and leans toward the Left.

by David Ash Wed Dec 01, 2004 17:17 dash239 at hotmail dot com

Perhaps people who think the colonisation of someone elses country, the ethnic cleansing of the local inhabitants, their seperation by force and walls from locals, and the maiming and murder of people because they are not of a certain race, on a routine basis, deserve to be defeated?

We went to war with Hitler after all, Zionists are just Jewish fascists who do it better and get away with it for longer.

Sad.